Zeon as a power in the Battletech Universe

[Norade]

We also see that Gundams sensors are so bad they can't even see through dust

Are you kidding me? Have you missed all the mentions of the Minovsky effect and how it renders basically all sensors useless? That's like a base premise of Mobile Suit Gundam.

Please provide proof that the area was under such jamming at the time in question. We don't see the visual light fogging nor hear any static in the communications as we would expect for heavy jamming. Not to mention that even a blurry IR image is better than being blinded by simple dust.

[Stark]

3 ground-type Zaku by themselves can interfere with the control signal to a wire-guided missile. That's pretty ridiculous jamming effects, but its so normal a bunch of guys with 'kill MS' rockets felt taking one Zaku on with 4 squads in ambush was suicide. Sensors may work intermittently or with unreliable signals, but people rely on passives (IR, visual, etc).

[Sinanju]

Please provide proof that the area was under such jamming at the time in question. We don't see the visual light fogging nor hear any static in the communications as we would expect for heavy jamming. Not to mention that even a blurry IR image is better than being blinded by simple dust.

A few things:
A) No Gundam show, ever, has actually depicted the visual fogging attributed to Minovsky particles. Even when the jamming is in effect and blocking communications and such. So the presence or absence of fogging doesn't really tell you anything. This is probably because it would be a very boring show to watch if all the viewer got to see were a bunch of blurry shapes flying around the screen and maybe doing something to each other.
B) The Type 74 command truck has a communications system specifically designed to work even through heavy Minovsky jamming. So the fact that Eledore can still reach everyone isn't evidence of the presence/absence of jamming either.
C) Minovsky jamming on battlefields is the central conceit of the series. It's the reason mobile suits exist. Demanding evidence that it's being used during a fight in a Gundam series is kind of like demanding evidence that Star Wars ships are using ECM in any given space battle; how often is that mentioned, hm?

[Norade]

3 ground-type Zaku by themselves can interfere with the control signal to a wire-guided missile. That's pretty ridiculous jamming effects, but its so normal a bunch of guys with 'kill MS' rockets felt taking one Zaku on with 4 squads in ambush was suicide. Sensors may work intermittently or with unreliable signals, but people rely on passives (IR, visual, etc).

Either of an IR mode would have allowed Karen to see through that dust cloud. So it's still an example of them having shit sensors, as a passive IR mode is still a type of optical sensor. I'm also surprised that no short wave UV light sources and sensors have been developed to defeat M-jamming.

[PainRack]

I don't agree with Painrack on this exactly. I'm more inclined to believe targeting computers optimized for ground combat, ECM, and compression of the basic game for playability have a part to play as well. There is a quote that says something to the effect that gameplay ranges in the basic game are compressed for playability in Total Warfare.

You're mixing up the range of weapons with the effective range. The effective range of Btech weapons is short, unless you simply choose to throw out the huge bulk of Btech canon based simply on two quotes from FanPro.

Mechs aren't that bad. A variety super sized versions of regular sports are played in mechs for example.

Source?

Ok, I just did the calc. As I suspected, because it's an effective range the number came up as considerably less than a kiloton for a low end NAC-35 calc. Nuke hits, cratering damage, and realistic effective velocities at those ranges all line up in the low or fractional kiloton range.

? Mind rechecking my assumptions. You're talking about a 200km barrage, right?

Even crapsack periphery worlds can muster a mech or two. They're probably 300 years old, but there still mechs. The high end is about a regiment of mechs for corporate security/noble/militia/random guy who owns a family mech.

No, they can't. The whole Marshals and Sheriffs makde it clear that not every Periphery world has a mech. It been made clear that not every Outback world has a mech garrison, compensating for it with vehicles instead.
If neccesary, we can simply point to the Clan invasion. Pointing to Tikonov is dumb when you're talking about a fortified border world vs Periphery outback.

It helps that a Star League Division has more than 26 regiments counting all of the component parts. A single Star League Division is the size of a large Corps or small Army level formation

Say what? A Star League division has 3 regiments, infantry has 1 mech, 2 infantry and etc. Counting supporting forces, that's 5 regiments, MAX. This is from SL sourcebook. May I know what is your source supporting such assumptions?

The SLDF are the Federal Army. Not just or necessarily all TH forces. The Houses of course had decent sized ground forces themselves.

We know the TH had sizable militia forces when the Houses invaded after Kerensky bugged out because there's an example presented as typical of a large high tech TH mech militia force getting nuked.

The TH army IS subordinated under the SLDF, hence the whole division between Royal and normal units. As for the incident you're referring to, I'm not familar with it. Mind elaborating with the source?

[Stark]

Either of an IR mode would have allowed Karen to see through that dust cloud. So it's still an example of them having shit sensors, as a passive IR mode is still a type of optical sensor. I'm also surprised that no short wave UV light sources and sensors have been developed to defeat M-jamming.

Except... they have IR. So... I guess they don't have this problem at all?

UH OH



Shame about all that inference I guess.

[Norade]

Either of an IR mode would have allowed Karen to see through that dust cloud. So it's still an example of them having shit sensors, as a passive IR mode is still a type of optical sensor. I'm also surprised that no short wave UV light sources and sensors have been developed to defeat M-jamming.

Except... they have IR. So... I guess they don't have this problem at all?

UH OH



Shame about all that inference I guess.

Please show that such interference was present at the battle we were shown given that none of the other visible effects of M-Jamming were visible.

[VF5SS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ubiNqkTMIU

yeah 08th MS Team's fights didn't age too well with all the DRAMATIC STANDING STILL stuff

Classic Gundam will show you real mobile suiting

man why is old Gundam still the best in terms of sheer classic fights

[Norade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ubiNqkTMIU

yeah 08th MS Team's fights didn't age too well with all the DRAMATIC STANDING STILL stuff

Classic Gundam will show you real mobile suiting

man why is old Gundam still the best in terms of sheer classic fights

Too bad the old one also had mechs that changed size in battle, mechs not dodging thrown objects and grunt suits dying while standing still...

[VF5SS]

Too bad the old one also had mechs that changed size in battle, mechs not dodging thrown objects and grunt suits dying while standing still...

Hold the fucking phone here.

Are you saying a TV show used dramatic shorthand to illustrate events quickly and also had inconsistencies due to time constraints?

I show you the best and all you want to do is nitpick the worst.

[Swindle1984]

I think, just like with Battletech, we can safely ignore incredibly dumb things done for artistic license/time constraints within Gundam in favor of the more sensible, more consistent things. Just like we do with canon in Star Wars and Star Trek.

I mean, shit:



I'd rather forget this ever happened. But it's not an animation error like the size-changing or an instance of "we didn't animate this thing moving because we were on a budget/time limit". Otherwise, the entire world of Speed Racer would literally freeze every time someone had an internal monologue or dramatic moment and turn into blurred lines.

Battletech is even worse since it doesn't even have the constraints of being an animated tv show to excuse some of its glaring deficiencies. And before anyone gets on me about it, I've been a Battletech fan since 1999. I've got half the fucking novels. Chill.

[Stark]

Please show that such interference was present at the battle we were shown given that none of the other visible effects of M-Jamming were visible.

Excuse me? The picture is snowy as shit, and they're unable to pick between the heat of 12-hour burning tanks and active tanks. What do you want, a technical manual?

PS, I've never seen the 'visible effects' of the interference outside of large-scale space combat or specific systems designed to distribute it (some mobile armors have 'minovsky chaff' systems, etc). Invisible interference can interfere with wire-guided commands with a single ultracompact reactor from a single Zaku at a a klick or two range (1800m if you want to be exact).

You claimed they have no IR based on one event, and I demonstrated they actually do. You lose, and clearly don't understand how widespread the interference effects are. Before I knew shit about Gundam I thought as you do ('lol use laser designation you tards'), but it just doesn't work that way.

At least they don't fire missiles randomly at 500m and miss most of the time, which is the accuracy we're competing with.

[Norade]

Please show that such interference was present at the battle we were shown given that none of the other visible effects of M-Jamming were visible.

Excuse me? The picture is snowy as shit, and they're unable to pick between the heat of 12-hour burning tanks and active tanks. What do you want, a technical manual?

PS, I've never seen the 'visible effects' of the interference outside of large-scale space combat or specific systems designed to distribute it (some mobile armors have 'minovsky chaff' systems, etc). Invisible interference can interfere with wire-guided commands with a single ultracompact reactor from a single Zaku at a a klick or two range (1800m if you want to be exact).

You claimed they have no IR based on one event, and I demonstrated they actually do. You lose, and clearly don't understand how widespread the interference effects are. Before I knew shit about Gundam I thought as you do ('lol use laser designation you tards'), but it just doesn't work that way.

At least they don't fire missiles randomly at 500m and miss most of the time, which is the accuracy we're competing with.

I was talking about in the scene with the GOUF custom, not your picture. The 08th team must really suck ass, seeing as they have IR and their Gundam pilots aren't even trained well enough to use it in cases it would work, we see shots missing suits standing still, and we see grunts taken out without them even trying to move I think that it's safe to say that outside of a few pilots and machines Gundams suck. If we're ony going by what we see most grunt suits don't even make an attempt to dodge and/or only fire wildly at best whenever anybody attacks them.

Visible interference is listed as part of M-jamming yet we never see it outside of large battles, thus visible spectrum and lower must not be heavily effected by said jamming. Thus you use an X-Ray laser for painting targets. Tighter wave lengths will be far less effected by Minovsky jamming so that ought to work for painting targets.

As for accuracy, Gundam with their I fire my entire clip and hit nothing, our missiles move slower than shit, and anything beyond a few hundred meters is long range is hardly a paragon.

Too bad the old one also had mechs that changed size in battle, mechs not dodging thrown objects and grunt suits dying while standing still...

Hold the fucking phone here.

Are you saying a TV show used dramatic shorthand to illustrate events quickly and also had inconsistencies due to time constraints?

I show you the best and all you want to do is nitpick the worst.

We judge visual mediums off what we see, not what we want to see. FAIL.

[Sinanju]

We judge visual mediums off what we see, not what we want to see. FAIL.

So, wait, are you seriously going to argue that mobile suits really did change size depending on the shot then? I dunno if I'd be so quick to pass out the 'fail' label, buddy.

[Zinegata]

Not exactly.

The remaining large Federation bases on Earth (prior to Odessa) included Jaburo, Madras, and Belfast. There's also a large gaggle of smaller bases (i.e. Torrington) that are military bases in the conventional sense, in that they don't combine military base with factory. Belfast was probably a conventional weapons factory as this was the base from which Odessa was launched (with massive tank forces).

In Space, the Federation's main production facilities where Side 7 (before the facilities were attacked by Char), Side 6 (around the time after Odessa, when Side 6 was moving closer to the EF), and Luna 2. Interestingly, even though Luna 2 has the potential to be a major production facility, it's not featured very prominently in the canonical MS kit manuals. I believe only the GM C (seen in 0083) claims to have been initially built at Luna 2. Most publications also claim that the Luna 2 fleet contained mainly survivors from the early war. Certainly - when it's visited by the White base - its garrison consists of just one Magellan class battleship and a cruiser or two in dock.

And that's just a tiny fraction of the Federation's potential production. Califonia base (which provided Zeon with its entire submarine fleet and amphib MS battalions) was just one of many that fell to Zeon control - there's still the East Coast Bases, New Guinea, Africa, and Odessa. In fact, it took the Federation a mere 3 years to build 100+ new capital ships that were featured in the 0083 naval review - despite the likelihood of the drawing-down of military forces with the coming of peace.

Given that I know relatively little apart what was shown in the actual series, I can't contest. Particularly for Luna II. The one thing I have to point out is another: the numbers would have been mind boggling if Jaburo didn't need to retool its factories from tank production to MS.
Now, I have to ask something: do we know how much of Jaburo's production capability had been retooled from fighter/tank/other kind of non-MS materiel to GM production?

The short answer is that we don't. But given the timeline notes, it may be possible that Jaburo's entire production may have been retooled for Ball and GM production by October '79. For Operation Odessa, the Federation Forces launched their forces from Belfast base. Given that Zeon had (wet) navy superiority by this point, it's entirely possible that the vast majority of tanks employed at Odessa were built at Belfast and Western Europe (which Zeon never really attacked). The main contribution from Jaburo was a smattering of early GM Ground types to support the tanks.

The alternative to this theory is the large-scale airlifting of 1,500 tanks from Jaburo to Belfast. Which would only make the Federation's logistical abilities even more mind-bogglingly impressive.

I suspect though, that a very large proportion of Jaburo's facilities were aimed at making ships as opposed to Mobile Suits. The 100-odd ships launched for Operation Star One to end the war were almost exclusively launched from Jaburo. As only four of these ships (Pegasus-class) are known to have atmospheric re-entry capability, it can be assumed these were all new ships. Giren's Greed also shows Jaburo having an extensive underground lake system, from which space battleships could be built in conditions similar to wet-navy ships, before being towed to the launching facilities.

It's worth noting that by 0087, Jaburo had been almost entirely mothballed and was considered to be merely a supply base. However, MS production and development still continued at a pretty impressive pace at a large number of different facilities (i.e. Augusta, New Guinea, the Lunar Cities). It seems to me that after 0079 (and 0083), the Federation may have decided to scatter is MS development facilities all over the world to prevent other would-be maniacs from dropping a colony on Jaburo and crippling the Federation's entire MS program.

During this move, the ship-building facilities were left behind (since you can't exactly move an underground lake), and these grew less important since everyone was focusing on MS development. Certainly, by Zeta Gundam apparently the only new ships built by the Federation were a handful of Alexandria class heavy cruisers - the rest being conversions of wartime Salamis and Magellan class ships. The Titans certainly felt no need to preserve the facilities - they nuked them in an effort to wipe out AEUG.

[Zinegata]

Apparently I'm wrong. Eh, oh well. It still doesn't help Zeon since the Gelgoog had a very short run and they're technologically starting out at the kickoff of the OYW.

As for Luna Titanium the only construction materials I could find were for the Marine/Marine Commander, Jager, and the ReGelg.* For the F/Fs-Type it was 'Super-Hard Steel Alloy', for the Jg-Type it was 'Titanium/Ceramic Composite', and for the J-Type it was 'Titanium Alloy Composite'. The latter two are quite likely the same thing, at least to me, with the newer statistics for the Jager being the most precise. It could be argued that by Titanium-Ceramic Composite they're just using the Zeon name for Luna Titanium, but I think we can agree that's quite unlikely.

*Unless of course we include the Gelgoog RF.

Some important notes...

The Gelgoog production run was 165 units. This number traditionally counts only the A (standard), B (hi-maneuverability with backpack thrusters), and C (backpack heavy beam cannon) models. It does not yet count the Marine and Jager types.

While this number may seem low, this should be compared to the 288 standard GMs built by the Federation. And that the Gelgoog was only in production for less than 3 months, after Zeon scrapped the MS-11 program around September due to the appearance of the Gundam.

Also, Luna-Titanium was exclusively available to the Federation during the OYW. Its use only proliferated after the war when the Federation handed over the formula to Anaheim. Zeon relied exclusive on plain old Titanium and the composites throughout the OYW.

[Zinegata]

We also see that Gundams sensors are so bad they can't even see through dust

Are you kidding me? Have you missed all the mentions of the Minovsky effect and how it renders basically all sensors useless? That's like a base premise of Mobile Suit Gundam.

Hold on here.

Minovsky effect renders radio and other radar-based detection methods useless. It also has a minor effect on IR but it doesn't render it useless. It has NO effect on eyeballs and sonar.

However...

Norade wrote:
Please show that such interference was present at the battle we were shown given that none of the other visible effects of M-Jamming were visible.

There is a very important thing regarding Minovsky particles that people missed for a while: Minovsky particles are persistent. They do NOT go away after you spread them, and they ARE affect by gravity and thus end up clumping up at gravity wells. Hence, practically ALL combat on Earth is done in M-particle rich environments, whether or not somebody is actively spreading the particles. This "Minovsky pollution" is also a major contributing factor to the poor communications throughout the Earth Sphere for the rest of UC Gundam (Ever wonder why the Titans easily suppressed any news of gassing civilians - even to the Federation Assembly?), and why the treaty that ended the OYW considers spreading any further M-particles near Earth to be a crime.

[Ritterin Sophia]

that outside of a few pilots and machines Gundams suck

Actually the Gundams ARE extremely few, there's twenty RX-79[G], like seven of the RX-78 (RX-78-1 to -7), one FA-78-2 (the FA-78-1 was a modification for the RX-78-1/2/3 that never left the drawing board), the RAG-79-G1, and the three RX-79BD Units, and the NT-1 Alex (There's an NT-2 and NT-3 but the NT-1 so I'll include them in the higher end but the war was over by the time the NT-1 entered testing) for a total of like 33-35 Gundams (I may be forgetting a few) in the OYW...

Oh wait you're one those guys, the kind that refers to every MS as a Gundam... here's a quick hint. If it doesn't have a V-Fin and two eyes, it's probably not a Gundam.

[Ritterin Sophia]

While this number may seem low, this should be compared to the 288 standard GMs built by the Federation.

Source?

Hold on here.

Minovsky effect renders radio and other radar-based detection methods useless. It also has a minor effect on IR but it doesn't render it useless. It has NO effect on eyeballs and sonar.

That covers Sonar and we know Minovsky Particles affect visuals when magnified through electronics.

[Commander 598]

On a side note, I wonder just how far and wide my Gundam screencaps are being used... :p

[Ford Prefect]

Please provide proof that the area was under such jamming at the time in question. We don't see the visual light fogging nor hear any static in the communications as we would expect for heavy jamming. Not to mention that even a blurry IR image is better than being blinded by simple dust.

Excuse me? I have to prove that conditions which are the norm in EVERY SINGLE GUNDAM BATTLE EVER were present? Here's a clue: distortion of visible light is indicative of extremely high concentrations of Minovsky particles. It will screw up radar and whatever long before it gets around to screwing with your eyes.

Incidentally, I think it's hilarious that you said this, given that the clip you watched actually shows Sanders almost hit Norris when Norris was dropping through the interior of a building, meaning that Sanders couldn't possibly have seen him. And the only reason Sanders misses is because Norris dodged it by arresting his fall with his handy cable, the shot was otherwise accurate.

Minovsky effect renders radio and other radar-based detection methods useless. It also has a minor effect on IR but it doesn't render it useless. It has NO effect on eyeballs and sonar.

Battle of Loum disagrees with you brother. Minovsky concentration was noted as being so high that it did start messing with visible light, and the screenshots which Schatt's posted depict that. It even shows up in The 08th MS Team

[Zinegata]

Re my sources... the MS numbers come from the Gundam Master Grade Kit Manuals, which are in turn based off the Mobile Suit Variation (MSV) kit manuals. They are both Bandai publications which, significantly, disagree with Entertainment Bible's rather insane MS numbers (2,600 Zakus at the Loum).

Battle of Loum disagrees with you brother. Minovsky concentration was noted as being so high that it did start messing with visible light, and the screenshots which Schatt's posted depict that. It even shows up in The 08th MS Team

Source? I certainly haven't seen any depiction of the Ruum where the visible spectrum was affected by M-particles. It was more of people going blind with all the nukes .

[Zinegata]

While this number may seem low, this should be compared to the 288 standard GMs built by the Federation.

Source?

Hold on here.

Minovsky effect renders radio and other radar-based detection methods useless. It also has a minor effect on IR but it doesn't render it useless. It has NO effect on eyeballs and sonar.

That covers Sonar and we know Minovsky Particles affect visuals when magnified through electronics.

I am incredibly leery about using MS Igloo as a canon source, given that its depiction of the Battle of the Loum contradicts every other previous depiction which states the Loum was a bloody brouhaha as opposed to a chroreographed demonstration of how cool MS are.

[Commander 598]

I am incredibly leery about using MS Igloo as a canon source, given that its depiction of the Battle of the Loum contradicts every other previous depiction which states the Loum was a bloody brouhaha as opposed to a chroreographed demonstration of how cool MS are.

I agree but I think it's perfectly fine for reference on modern depictions of technology, the effects of megaparticle cannons, and what minovsky blinded sensors look like as they're irrelevant to how Loum is played out.

[VF5SS]

We judge visual mediums off what we see, not what we want to see. FAIL.

suspension of disbelief doesn't mean you get to act like a pedantic arse.

Just write those scenes off as being those split second moments where a bad decision costs a pilot his life.

Mobile Suits are still hella sweet though.