Samus Aran vs. Darth Vader

[Darth Hoth]

Which techniques? Just because their tradition was passed down orally doesn't mean it can't have undergone evolution and development in the meantime. Indeed, their collaborative force powers suggest as much. Whereas the Jedi and Sith tend to focus on personal force powers.

Not really; Jedi have been ganging up to reinforce and share powers for quite a long while in the EU. There are examples from comics as well as the Jedi Academy trilogy (when they were blasting Exar Kun's spirit), Darksaber, the "battle meld" they have going since NJO onwards, and probably others as well.

I would counter by questioning the necessity of coming up with any explanation until we get more information on the Nightsister's abilities. Good data is a concern more fundamental than Occam's Razor.

What kind of information? No other ability is mentioned in the book that accounts as easily for the description as Force-based telekinesis, and we explicitly know that they can and do use that kind of attack on single targets.

[Formless]

Not really; Jedi have been ganging up to reinforce and share powers for quite a long while in the EU. There are examples from comics as well as the Jedi Academy trilogy (when they were blasting Exar Kun's spirit), Darksaber, the "battle meld" they have going since NJO onwards, and probably others as well.

I was talking about the old Jedi order. The new Jedi Order has more exposure to force traditions like the Nightsisters, the Aing-Tii monks, and the Jensaarai and more willingness to incorporate their knowledge into Jedi practice.

What kind of information? No other ability is mentioned in the book that accounts as easily for the description as Force-based telekinesis, and we explicitly know that they can and do use that kind of attack on single targets.

Information about the Nightsisters themselves, idiot. Are you illiterate or something? I would be saying the same thing if I were asked about the capabilities of a one-episode wonder in Star Trek. I need more information about the skill in question, not about vaguely similar skills utilized by the Jedi and Sith. Your method of interpreting evidence is just begging to be tainted by confirmation bias.

[Darth Hoth]

I was talking about the old Jedi order. The new Jedi Order has more exposure to force traditions like the Nightsisters, the Aing-Tii monks, and the Jensaarai and more willingness to incorporate their knowledge into Jedi practice.

Is there evidence of such incorporation? I know of Darth Jacen studying some of those, but not of anyone else doing so. From what I gather, Luke based most of his training practices on old Jedi lore (books from Ossus, Chu'unthor records, holocrons).

Information about the Nightsisters themselves, idiot. Are you illiterate or something? I would be saying the same thing if I were asked about the capabilities of a one-episode wonder in Star Trek. I need more information about the skill in question, not about vaguely similar skills utilized by the Jedi and Sith. Your method of interpreting evidence is just begging to be tainted by confirmation bias.

So what kind of information on them? A list of all their known Force capabilities, with quoted examples where they are demonstrated? That would become quite unwieldy pretty fast.

[Formless]

Is there evidence of such incorporation? I know of Darth Jacen studying some of those, but not of anyone else doing so. From what I gather, Luke based most of his training practices on old Jedi lore (books from Ossus, Chu'unthor records, holocrons).

The Jensaarai at least were willing to exchange knowledge and students with Luke's Jedi Order and vice verse once their initial misunderstandings were sorted out. And the Battlemind Battle meld was, IIRC, based on Aing-Tii meditative practices. So there is that.

So what kind of information on them? A list on all their known Force capabilities, with quoted examples where they are demonstrated? That would become quite unwieldy pretty fast.

At the least I think we would simply need to see more of them to figure out how much of their abilities were repeatable and how many were just flukes. Fortunately, the Nightsisters keep reappearing in the EU after that book, correct?

[Darth Hoth]

The Jensaarai at least were willing to exchange knowledge and students with Luke's Jedi Order and vice verse once their initial misunderstandings were sorted out. And the Battlemind was, IIRC, based on Aing-Tii meditative practices. So there is that.

I thought it was supposed to be inspired by C'baoth? But then, I only read most of the NJO books once, so I may be mistaken.

At the least I think we would simply need to see more of them to figure out how much of their abilities were repeatable and how many were just flukes. Fortunately, the Nightsisters keep reappearing in the EU after that book, correct?

Unless it has been ret-conned by some sourcebook or other, the original Nightsisters died out close to the end of The Courtship of Princess Leia when Zsinj's fleet shot them. Of later examples, I know only some who worked with the Shadow Academy in the Young Jedi Knights books, and they were basically a bunch of posers who took up the name without really continuing the tradition. Certainly none of them were on par with Gethzerion or her senior cronies.

[Formless]

I thought it was supposed to be inspired by C'baoth? But then, I only read most of the NJO books once, so I may be mistaken.

*Checks wookiepedia* Apparently, you're right. However, it was considered an advanced technique yet in the NJO...

Also, having double checked, my point about the Jensaarai stands.

Unless it has been ret-conned by some sourcebook or other, the original Nightsisters died out close to the end of The Courtship of Princess Leia when Zsinj's fleet shot them. Of later examples, I know only some who worked with the Shadow Academy in the Young Jedi Knights books, and they were basically a bunch of posers who took up the name without really continuing the tradition. Certainly none of them were on par with Gethzerion or her senior cronies.

Ah, that's too bad. I rather like it when the EU shows us force traditions outside the little world of the Jedi and Sith.

[Molyneux]

I have yet to see anything that indicates Vader could use a Force Choke or other TK attack on an armored Samus at all. Use telekinesis to throw her around, sure - but why the hell does the Force get a free pass to bypass not only her armored shell (where he can't actually see her squishy body inside), but the ludicrously powerful energy shield protecting her armor itself?

I'm giving this as a probable win to Samus, based on the disparity in offenses available to them. Unless Vader has a convenient bottomless pit to throw her into, there's nothing he can do to prevent Samus from blasting away at him with various beams until she gets a lucky shot or finds a weapon that can bypass a lightsaber blade.

If none of the weapons in all of the games Samus has starred in has even come close to damaging her gun-arm before taking out her armor itself (bag-of-spilling at the beginning of Prime notwithstanding), then it seems silly to me to assume that Vader could pull off that feat.

[Stark]

None of the weapons in the game damage the floor, either. Just what are those Zebes rocks and Chozo grasses made of, that 1kt super missiles don't affect them?

The idea Samus' suit can't be damaged because the games are based on hitpoints is probably the highlight of this thread.

[The Vortex Empire]

Why wouldn't he be able to affect Samus through her armor and shields? In ESB he choked that Imperial officer on a different ISD, which mean he choked him through the Executors armor and shields, some distance of empty space, and the armor and shields of the ISD.

[Molyneux]

Why wouldn't he be able to affect Samus through her armor and shields? In ESB he choked that Imperial officer on a different ISD, which mean he choked him through the Executors armor and shields, some distance of empty space, and the armor and shields of the ISD.

Ozzel? I was under the impression that he was on the same ship, not a different one.

What happens when two combat-trained Jedi, fresh from cutting their way through a whole squad of armed droids, come up against a couple of shielded Droidekas? (Phantom Menace, of course.)
What happens when an experienced Jedi at the height of his vigor gets caught off-guard by a force field trap? (Revenge of the Sith.)

I think we have good cinematic evidence that energy shields can block TK effects, and Samus' armor is explicitly shielded.

The idea Samus' suit can't be damaged because the games are based on hitpoints is probably the highlight of this thread.

Can you give an example of Samus' gun-arm being damaged when the rest of her suit is still in fine working order, without being energy-depleted? Manga would be fine for this, too. Is there anything that suggests that Vader would be able to TK-crush her gun-arm without first getting rid of her shielding?

[ChosenOne54]

Whenever there is a thread about a non-force user vs. a force user, it always inevitably turns into a debate about whether or not force powers will affect said non-force user.

Not just here, but anywhere on the internet.

[Shroom Man 777]

So we have Force Users using their TK to kill thousands of Samuses in a blink of an eye with their super-Force-speed, thousands of roger-roger droids are falling down with their bits wrecked. And then a droideka rolls into the room, turns on its shield, and then oh no, their TK is useless, runaway!

ROGER ROGER

[Enigma]

So we have Force Users using their TK to kill thousands of Samuses in a blink of an eye with their super-Force-speed, thousands of roger-roger droids are falling down with their bits wrecked. And then a droideka rolls into the room, turns on its shield, and then oh no, their TK is useless, runaway!

ROGER ROGER

That is until the Jedis learn that the droidekas shields do not turn on when they are tipped over. I think that was shown either in RotS or in the CW series.

[Shroom Man 777]

So they tip the droidekas before or after they engage their shields?

[Stark]

Can you give an example of Samus' gun-arm being damaged when the rest of her suit is still in fine working order, without being energy-depleted? Manga would be fine for this, too. Is there anything that suggests that Vader would be able to TK-crush her gun-arm without first getting rid of her shielding?

Are you saying a game based on hitpoints has no damage effects until hitpoints are exhausted, and then using this as evidence something cannot be destroyed? This is literally like saying Starcraft marines can lose 200L of blood without ill effects because at 1hp they are fully functional.

Please bear in mind the weapons that bring down Samus' shields also don't deform terrain (often not even leaving damage decals), have tiny blast effects, generate no clouds of smoke or debris etc. Since the shields are more like the superconductive shields than bubble shields in SW, they're much more like shielded SW armour than something like a droideka. I bet the games have absurdly hilarious fluff describing exactly how they work, too!

[Norade]

Not to mention grass and trees being fine no matter what she does near them... How much energy does it take to burn grass again? Woops, I guess her blasts do less than that now.

[Molyneux]

Can you give an example of Samus' gun-arm being damaged when the rest of her suit is still in fine working order, without being energy-depleted? Manga would be fine for this, too. Is there anything that suggests that Vader would be able to TK-crush her gun-arm without first getting rid of her shielding?

Are you saying a game based on hitpoints has no damage effects until hitpoints are exhausted, and then using this as evidence something cannot be destroyed? This is literally like saying Starcraft marines can lose 200L of blood without ill effects because at 1hp they are fully functional.

Please bear in mind the weapons that bring down Samus' shields also don't deform terrain (often not even leaving damage decals), have tiny blast effects, generate no clouds of smoke or debris etc. Since the shields are more like the superconductive shields than bubble shields in SW, they're much more like shielded SW armour than something like a droideka. I bet the games have absurdly hilarious fluff describing exactly how they work, too!

1) Samus's armor is established to include an energy shield.
2) Jedi TK in the films has been shown several times to be worth fuck-all when the target is protected by energy shields.
3) Therefore, unless you can come up with a compelling reason to think otherwise, Darth Vader's TK is going to do fuck-all against Samus' armor as long as her energy shield is up.

Burden of evidence lies on you, boyo.

[Norade]

1) Samus's armor is established to include an energy shield.
2) Jedi TK in the films has been shown several times to be worth fuck-all when the target is protected by energy shields.
3) Therefore, unless you can come up with a compelling reason to think otherwise, Darth Vader's TK is going to do fuck-all against Samus' armor as long as her energy shield is up.

Burden of evidence lies on you, boyo.

Vader TKing Ozel through a ship's shields. Palpatine teleporting Luke off of a planet through a ship's shields. A shielding ISD being pulled out of the sky. A fleet of shielded ISD's being shoved by a group of Jedi...

[Shroom Man 777]

And Jedi running away from shielded droidekas because they couldn't touch it, after effortlessly killing and TKing scores of other battle droids.

[Vympel]

Don't be an idiot, they ran from them because they were concentrating on deflecting their blaster bolts, not because they couldn't affect the Droidekas through their shields. Obi-Wan had no problem force pushing shielded Droidekas aboard the Malevolence in TCW. There's no evidence whatsoever that Samus' shield would somehow protect her from Force-based attacks.

I have yet to see anything that indicates Vader could use a Force Choke or other TK attack on an armored Samus at all. Use telekinesis to throw her around, sure - but why the hell does the Force get a free pass to bypass not only her armored shell (where he can't actually see her squishy body inside), but the ludicrously powerful energy shield protecting her armor itself?

The "shields somehow stop the Force" argument has already been debunked, but as for this "can't see her squishy body" - any idiot would be able to tell where her body begins and the suit ends (you know, visor) and the notion that Vader needs to see what he's trying to manipulate is completely made up. Obi-Wan had no problem affecting the control circuit board of his starfighter in the RotS novel, and Anakin pulled the same trick to tighten the braking mechanisms of an elevator in the AotC novel.

Heck, do I need to point out that Luke's exercises in lifting objects as a trainee on Dagobah all involved doing so with his eyes closed, as does battling a remote? How do you think Palpatine unlocked Luke's handcuffs in RotJ? He manipulated the lock, and he sure as heck couldn't see it from where he was.

[Havok]

They run away from the Droidekas because they fire at them continuously, are actually accurate and their shields keep them fro redirecting the blaster fire back. The continuous fire is also able to keep Jedi off balance enough that TK, which is something established as requiring a little more than a basic though and some degree of concentration, isn't always an option.
Standard battledroids are a joke, which is why the TF and others built the super battledroids and bring in Droidekas. They are more durable, more powerful and made of stronger materials. So keep that in mind.

Also Vader didn't TK Ozzel through a ship's fucking shields. Watch the goddamned movie. They were both on the Executor.

Also, the OP states that this is TESB Vader, so anything Palpatine did in Dark Empire is completely moot and certainly not useable in the realm of evidence. Same goes with any novels post TESB.

As for Vader himself, he is the absolute max as far as Jedi/Sith go. We know that Palpatine himself knows that Anakin/Vader will be more powerful than he and Yoda, so basically it is safe to assume that any feat we see either of them perform in the PT, Vader will, 20 years later, be fully capable of accomplishing.

It is also safe to assume that Vader was indeed showing off in TESB letting Han shoot at him. Not just because that is a very strong personality trait in Anakin/Vader, but because he was sitting down waiting to have dinner when they walked in. It was clearly all set up for show.

As for energy shields, there is exactly one scene in the movies where Jedi come up against an energy shielded opponent and as I pointed out, the steady barrage of fire is what keeps the Jedi from being able to TK the droids. The shield itself keeps the Jedi from redirecting the blaster fire back, clearly their preferred way of doing things, and possibly using lightsabers against it.

[Darth Yoshi]

True, but remember, the Crystal Flash technique is described by Old Bird as anything but safe. Perhaps you need the 1 power bomb to trigger the effect and can then begin dumping additional energy into to light cocoon that surrounds Samus to continue the process. In the comic Samus is only healing her physical body, while in the game she's repairing her armor (which is quite a bit more durable) and would understandably need more energy than 1 power bomb can give her.

If she's actually repairing her armor with the Crystal Flash rather than merely recharging her shields, wouldn't that also be matter conversion?

Also, the OP states that this is TESB Vader, so anything Palpatine did in Dark Empire is completely moot and certainly not useable in the realm of evidence. Same goes with any novels post TESB.

Why not? Sure, Vader may not know about Palpatine's more esoteric stuff or may not be able to pull them off if he did, but if a Force user is able to TK a shielded object post-TESB then there's no reason Vader wouldn't be able to do the same during TESB. It's not like the Force suddenly changed how it works after Luke gets his hand cut off.

[keen320]

As for energy shields, there is exactly one scene in the movies where Jedi come up against an energy shielded opponent and as I pointed out, the steady barrage of fire is what keeps the Jedi from being able to TK the droids. The shield itself keeps the Jedi from redirecting the blaster fire back, clearly their preferred way of doing things, and possibly using lightsabers against it.

Well, that still makes Samus rather hard to TK, as she can easily keep up a steady barrage of fire. And Vader can't block it all with his saber, what with it being a wall bigger than his saber.

[Shroom Man 777]

Surely the droidekas set-up time, between rolling out, "unfolding", and then arming their weapons and firing would be more than enough for Jedi/Sith superspeed to react quickly to.

But yes, this has less to do with "lol shields no TK" and more with Force users simply distracted by complicated battlefield factors that make them unable to counter everything.

[Molyneux]

1) Samus's armor is established to include an energy shield.
2) Jedi TK in the films has been shown several times to be worth fuck-all when the target is protected by energy shields.
3) Therefore, unless you can come up with a compelling reason to think otherwise, Darth Vader's TK is going to do fuck-all against Samus' armor as long as her energy shield is up.

Burden of evidence lies on you, boyo.

Vader TKing Ozel through a ship's shields. Palpatine teleporting Luke off of a planet through a ship's shields. A shielding ISD being pulled out of the sky. A fleet of shielded ISD's being shoved by a group of Jedi...

Ozzel was on the same damn ship, where the fuck did Palpatine teleport Luke - and if the Force allowed for fucking teleportation, why the hell didn't Palpatine just TP out of Vader's grip?

Pulling a shielded ISD out of the sky doesn't involve damaging anything past the shield (except where it hits the ground) - it's latching onto the entire shielded entity and pulling it.

They run away from the Droidekas because they fire at them continuously, are actually accurate and their shields keep them fro redirecting the blaster fire back. The continuous fire is also able to keep Jedi off balance enough that TK, which is something established as requiring a little more than a basic though and some degree of concentration, isn't always an option.

And Samus is somehow a less formidable opponent than a group of Droidekas?

As for Vader himself, he is the absolute max as far as Jedi/Sith go. We know that Palpatine himself knows that Anakin/Vader will be more powerful than he and Yoda, so basically it is safe to assume that any feat we see either of them perform in the PT, Vader will, 20 years later, be fully capable of accomplishing.

Bull. Shit.
Vader is a cindered, limbless husk in a life-support suit. If he had access to everything seen in the PT, then why the fuck didn't he bust out those moves against Luke? Oh, I'm sure he let Mark Hamill cut his hand off - it was all part of his master plan, don'tchaknow.

As for energy shields, there is exactly one scene in the movies where Jedi come up against an energy shielded opponent and as I pointed out, the steady barrage of fire is what keeps the Jedi from being able to TK the droids. The shield itself keeps the Jedi from redirecting the blaster fire back, clearly their preferred way of doing things, and possibly using lightsabers against it.

There are also the scenes in Phantom Menace (Liam Neeson and Maul) and RotS (Grievous' trap) where Jedi completely fail to disable force fields that are impeding their progress.

Don't be an idiot, they ran from them because they were concentrating on deflecting their blaster bolts, not because they couldn't affect the Droidekas through their shields. Obi-Wan had no problem force pushing shielded Droidekas aboard the Malevolence in TCW. There's no evidence whatsoever that Samus' shield would somehow protect her from Force-based attacks.

Not having seen TCW, I can't judge - but did Obi-Wan just shove the shielded droids around, or did he actually damage them through the shield? Again, I've never stated that a Jedi can't force-push a shielded object - just that force TK doesn't seem to be able to hit something through the shield. Samus' shields should protect her from Force TK attacks the same as they do from any other source of damage.

You have a point about the "can't see", though, and I'll concede that.