Deathwatch vs Space marines

[Eviscerator]

Do you FUCKING acknowledge that Space Marines can operate the same way the Deathwatch does or that they DO deploy and fight in squad levels? Or are you going to keep waffling about how Space Marines don't deploy in squads, despite the numerous novel, codex fluff that I posted here?

Space Marines run the EXACT same kind of missions in the same style, and operate as special ops forces when they're not working up as commandoes or stormtroopers?[/quote]

They can operate the same way: they just dont get the same "stuff" to operate with. Neither do they have the occupational or vocational expertise to do the same mission thë "same".

Brother-captain "Not-Uriel Ventris" would not have the benefit of knowing kill point X on xenos species 66 , for example, nor would he have the MK XVIII Bolter with Uber-rounds that the same ranked Marine in the Deathwatch would have.

He doesn't get spanking rare "small and fast" archeotech starships nor does he get grizzled Navigators who've been there and done that.

Even if the chapter DID have all of the above: what's that about most Chapters being really anal about ROE and not using equipment not imperial????

End result: yeah you could dispatch a squad of SM without prior DW experience or equipment to do the same TYPE of mission, you just cant expect them to do it the same WAY or be able to accomplish the same OBJECTIVE.

And im not "waffling about BAWWS SM never go in squads", you remember i posted evidence to support that they do.

[PainRack]

Deathwatch technology or knowledge about the xenos has never been disputed.

The sole portion is that they possess "special" training, which I'm asking posters to post about.

[Eviscerator]

So, here"s the question. why would the formation of the deathwatch be a better choice than forming or relying on an existing chapter?

.

For all the reasons already posted regarding experience, "stuff",etc etc.

It may interest most that the formation of the SEALs all those years ago was accompanied by much screaming and yelling when "Richard Marcinko is taking all my best men for his goddamned unit!!!"

Fast forward and look who killed Osama It wasnt some platoon straight out of BCT coulda done that , you know it, everybody knows it

You are trivialising the DW when you only say "sole portion is special training", the DW enjoy lots of other things including special training which together makes the DW what it is I.E: a anti-xenos SM unit

Any portion of the factors involved in training, employing and equipping " insert Specialied Military Unit here" on it's own given to another "generic military unit" does not automatically make the generic unit able to accomplish anything the specialists can

Saying that ordinary SM's could do the exact same type of missions the DW could and succeed is analogous to US Military Commanders somehow believing line infantry could perform the same tasks the A-teams did in Vietnam: namely Counter-insurgency. I mean, look , they got the same equipment and all that jazz didn't they, so why didn't it work

[Dwelf]

They can operate the same way: they just dont get the same "stuff" to operate with. Neither do they have the occupational or vocational expertise to do the same mission thë "same".

Brother-captain "Not-Uriel Ventris" would not have the benefit of knowing kill point X on xenos species 66 , for example, nor would he have the MK XVIII Bolter with Uber-rounds that the same ranked Marine in the Deathwatch would have.

He doesn't get spanking rare "small and fast" archeotech starships nor does he get grizzled Navigators who've been there and done that.

Even if the chapter DID have all of the above: what's that about most Chapters being really anal about ROE and not using equipment not imperial????

End result: yeah you could dispatch a squad of SM without prior DW experience or equipment to do the same TYPE of mission, you just cant expect them to do it the same WAY or be able to accomplish the same OBJECTIVE.

And im not "waffling about BAWWS SM never go in squads", you remember i posted evidence to support that they do.

So it's probably a political choice to run the deathwatch as is, not a matter of capabilites. If the deathwatch was a chapter chances are they would violate the codex pretty thoroughly. Maybe this was considered an unacceptable precedent. The alternative of the inquisition picking up a few marines from different chapters giving them the same mission and some enhanced gear and depositing them all in the same place at the same time was probably more pallatable. Less inconvenient exceptions to the rules but you still get you kill and capture teams of grizzled vets. Sure it works out to be the same thing as a chapter sending a squad at the end of the day but it probably doesnt break the rules as much.

[Zinegata]

I am really tired of this horseshit:

Pain Rack, you are a liar.

Again, for the last time: The contention is not "Space Marines never deploy as individual squads". The contention is "Space Marines generally do not deploy as individual squads."

Evidence shown:

* Timeline shows ZERO notable single-squad deployments
* The Space Marines have ZERO known warships that specialize in single squad deployments
* You have yet to show any evidence showing this is not the case. All you've done is show examples, which in almost every case has been shown to be exceptions rather than the rule.

So really, fuck your lying mouth. You are again deliberately miscrontruing my statements by saying this:

Do you FUCKING acknowledge that Space Marines ... DO deploy and fight in squad levels?

Enough of your fucking lies. Read what I actually fucking wrote before acting like a goddamn six year old on acid. Showing that "there are instances wherein Space Marines deploy in squad level" does not overturn "Space Marines do NOT generally deploy at squad level".

[Zinegata]

Do you FUCKING acknowledge that Space Marines can operate the same way the Deathwatch does

"Exceptions do not standard procedure make"

"Space Marines can operate the same way as the Deathwatch does" is not synonymous to "Space Marines often operate the same way as the Deathwatch does."

But noooo. You're such a fucking moron that you cannot tell that "existence" and "frequency" are two seperate things.

[Black Admiral]

Ultimately, the Deathwatch's particular reason for existing isn't any particular expertise at squad-level deployments - the Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels and others have all sent single squads on independent missions before (I can, if it's required, dig up the exact references) - but the fact that, as white_rabbit remarked on, the Deathwatch is considerably more reliable for doing the various dirty deeds the Ordo Xenos needs them to.

For instance, a Deathwatch team, given an order to eliminate all witnesses to a particular set of events, would do so. Try that on, say, a Salamanders, Crimson Fists or Raven Guard officer (or any number of Chapters, for that matter) and they are .... not liable to take it well, let's put it that way.

[Zinegata]

Ultimately, the Deathwatch's particular reason for existing isn't any particular expertise at squad-level deployments - the Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels and others have all sent single squads on independent missions before (I can, if it's required, dig up the exact references) - but the fact that, as white_rabbit remarked on, the Deathwatch is considerably more reliable for doing the various dirty deeds the Ordo Xenos needs them to.

For instance, a Deathwatch team, given an order to eliminate all witnesses to a particular set of events, would do so. Try that on, say, a Salamanders, Crimson Fists or Raven Guard officer (or any number of Chapters, for that matter) and they are .... not liable to take it well, let's put it that way.

Well, that's an actual valid counter-point. The Ordo Xenos could have created a specific chapter that was a lot like the Iron Snakes - whose specialization was squad-level deployments. Certainly, the Grey Knights are already known to do this frequently.

However, as I mentioned previously, doing this will deprive the Ordo a chance to recruit mission specialists; which can be mixed and matched as required. Need a duelist? Add a Storm Warden. Need a driver? Add a White Scar, and so on.

I've also already mentioned that one of the primary reasons for the DW is to allow troopers more individual leeway, and do things that they normally can't do in their home chapter. The RPG strongly implies that there is a more positive aspect to this rather than simply "We are doing very amoral things that our honorable brothers won't approve of", but the existence of the vow of silence certainly does point to having to keep secret some "dity deeds".

[PainRack]

"Exceptions do not standard procedure make"

"Space Marines can operate the same way as the Deathwatch does" is not synonymous to "Space Marines often operate the same way as the Deathwatch does."

But noooo. You're such a fucking moron that you cannot tell that "existence" and "frequency" are two seperate things.

And I repeat this again. Just WHAT is the standard of evidence required before it NO longer become "abnormal".
I quoted MULTIPLE chapters doing similar missions to you ALREADY. I quoted codex fluff that states that deploying at squad level happens, and its apparently common enough that the Imperium realise how this poses a risk for conversion to Chaos.

Your sole defence is that "this doesn't count" because you shift the goalpost or its abnormal.
And you just did it again. Now its "Space Marines can operate the same way is not synonymous to Space Marines "often" operate the same way.

What was your attempt at a rebuttal? That Deathwatch is spec ops and Space Marines are just elite forces. It would be a valid rebuttal if it wasn't for the fact that Space Marines draw the same missions the Deathwatch draw , and Space Marines can and do operate the same way Deathwatch do, and we even see Space Marines drawing the same missions and fighting/operating the same way the Deathwatch do.

And you wonder why I labelled you a creationist? You keep fucking insisting that I DIDN"T show that Space Marines don't deploy squads to fulfill a mission, operating like special ops forces but I HAVE. Space Hulk? Boarding mission to recover lost relics/destroy xeno threats/eliminate entire hulk via charges. This gets even more annoying because I shown you the mission types described in the sourcebook....... and its the same stuff done by Space Marines. Your objection is that Space Marines have "support"...... but when I shown you space marines that don't have support and operate just like Deathwatch missions..... they're now "abnormal". Wonderful.

Evidence shown:

* Timeline shows ZERO notable single-squad deployments
* The Space Marines have ZERO known warships that specialize in single squad deployments
* You have yet to show any evidence showing this is not the case. All you've done is show examples, which in almost every case has been shown to be exceptions rather than the rule.

Exceptions. How is Aramus deploying to capture the sacred relic, behind enemy lines, agianst Tyranid Hordes an exception to the norm? If this was abnormal, why didn't Aramus mention this? Or...... any of the other Space Marines in novels who do this.
Space Hulk. Deploy Terminators to Hulks, recover sacred relics and etc. Exception to the norm.

I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and repeat, just WHAT ON GOD GREEN EARTH IS THE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE REQUIRED HERE.

Your fucking objections is that there is a sin of omission..... I shown the evidence and then its dismissed. Then you argue that they don't have spaceships capable of deploying a single squad. Hell, let's take this on its head shall we? The freaking DEATHWATCH relies on

destroyers, frigates, and other classes of rapid strike
vessel, along with modified Hunter-class destroyers known
as Dark Hunters. Larger warships and also several captured
raider vessels and merchantmen are held in reserve should a
particular mission warrant their use.
he lighter classes of vessels suit the needs of the
Deathwatch admirably, as their missions most commonly
need to deploy and extract very small numbers of Deathwatch
Battle-Brothers with great speed, precision, and when called
for, subterfuge. Like other Space Marine vessels, the warships
of the Deathwatch are primarily crewed by servitors and
oath-bonded serfs, with a handful of Battle-Brothers serving
as command crew

None of these warships can deploy a single squad reliably.
There is this
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gladius_Frigate
but its also a Space Marine vessel.

Hmmm..... Does it play a role in Space Marines insertion? No idea. Does it play a role in inserting Deathwatch? Oh mine. Yes...
So..... can I prove that the Space Marines don't use the Gladius that way? I can't. I don't play Gothic. But your argument that the Space Marines don't have a warship that can transport a single squad?

Enough of your fucking lies. Read what I actually fucking wrote before acting like a goddamn six year old on acid. Showing that "there are instances wherein Space Marines deploy in squad level" does not overturn "Space Marines do NOT generally deploy at squad level".

Who GIVES a shit? Seriously? Your entire FUCKING argument is that Space Marines= Rangers, Deathwatch= Green Berets. I shown that this isn't true because they draw on the same missions. You then argued that hey, Deathwatch is squad based expertise. Ok, I shown that Space Marines have similar expertise. Then I go one step further and point out that they do the same missions with the same tactics and etc....... and your argument is that this isn't the norm?

So. WHAT AGAIN IS THE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE NORM? Captain Shrike leading a squad of Raven Guard to kill enemy leader, is that now abnormal? Dark Angels deploying a single squad to reconnitore a world, establish the threat, loyalty of the IG guard, xenos threat and find out whether their fallen angel is present? Is that NOW abnormal? Oh wait. Its a novel. So its "novel" bias. Clearly "abnormal".

[NecronLord]

This thread is going around in pointless circles. It may be earning a short trip to locktown soon.

From skimming, if someone's doubting that the Deathwatch train to fight against aliens more comprehensively than other chapters do, I refer them to the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle which describes Watch Fotress Erioch having live aliens captured for training with, something that's rather rare (I think there's another mention of such in Ian Watson's Space Marine, but don't quote me) in other descriptions of marine training

They also retain at least one weird alien to talk to it, something less... initiated space marine groups would balk at.

[NecronLord]

For an example of Deathwatch Training being superior to that of ordinary marines, we have Rites of Battle p.231:

For comparison, Watch Fortress Erioch is a major Deathwatch base, while it typically only supports a few kill teams, it is outright stated to be equipped with enough space and munitions and ships for an entire chapter-strength mustering of Deathwatch to be assembled. It is either a much-expanded Ramilies-class starfort, or some similar construction.

Part of the Deathwatch RPG's mystery is why the Deathwatch are in the region, but given that it has among other things, necron tombs and more besides.

Erioch is not said to be unique, and indeed, is not the largest Watch Fortress in the galaxy.

THE HUNTING GROUNDS
The Hunting Grounds have gradually grown to fill multiple levels of the fortress, forming an ever-more-important part of the Deathwatch training and devotion facilities at Erioch. Their
construction was first begun some four centuries ago at the instigation of Watch Captain Prascus.

Prascus had perceived a certain lack of readiness in Killteams being sent into the field because they lacked sufficient opportunity to train together in varied environments. By the nature of its work a Kill-team might fi nd itself fighting in scorching deserts one day and reeking jungles the next. Equally they might have crushing gravity, hard vacuum, toxic atmospheres or a thousand other exotic environmental challenges to overcome with little preparation. The transitions were sometimes diffi cult for newly arrived Battle-Brothers working together for the fi rst time, and clearly it incurred unnecessary difficulties and even casualties.

It was a tricky matter to address among proud warriors of a dozen different backgrounds, each feeling they bore the honour of their own Chapter on their shoulders. Some Captains would have tackled the issue head-on and called upon the Battle-Brothers to remember their duty and their oaths to strive harder, but Prascus knew that such a course could sow the seeds of later acrimony.

So Prascus decided it would impugn no-one’s honour for a lack of preparedness if he instead chose to celebrate the hunting traditions of some of his Battle-Brothers. He had a number
of large bays converted into facsimiles of rugged planetary environments and took to leading hunts through them against dangerous xenos released from the Bestiarium. Thus, under the
guise of sport and honour, Prascus trained his teams to hunt together with practiced zeal through frozen hells and fiery deserts, and high waters equally well.

Long after Prascus’ tenure as Watch Captain had passed, the Hunting Grounds remained in operation, falling into disuse for a few decades at a time before being reopened again. Later Commanders have expanded the grounds further, sometimes with sections mimicking their own home worlds or, increasingly, depicting worlds from the Jericho Reach.

Master Jarrax of the Black Templars ordered gigantic sealed vessels to be built so that the Battle-Brothers could practice their arts under every conceivable trial of the void. The towering
vaults he created can be confi gured to mimic any environment from vacuum to the crushing pressure of a gas giant. Watch Captain Madsen caused several vessels to be modified by having ship corridors and xenos labyrinths painstakingly recreated for the exercise of Kill-team close assault tactics. Jarrax’s Eyrie, a 3800-metre vertical vessel, has so far been kept empty for the exercise of zero-G and terminal velocity combat techniques.

Within the last century the Hunting Grounds have become fully integrated into Deathwatch training dogma at Erioch and expanded even further. Vast halls have been re-confi gured into
exact replicas of the native environments of selected xenos species. Here Deathwatch Battle-Brothers stalk nightmarish aliens beneath holographic skies to learn of their tricks and traps in their native realms. In such places the Battle-Brothers can truly hone their skills as they await the call to battle

While all Space Marines have training facilities, there's no indication anywhere that any chapter but the Deathwatch goes as far as training to fight in the depths of gas giants, or reconstructing entire alien environments, to hunt live aliens through.

[PainRack]

Thankns Necronlord.

[Zinegata]

I'm only responding to this, as Pain Rack is just going around in circles because he can't get it through his skull that "Space Marines can have squad-level deployments" is not the same as "Space Marines often deploy in squad level deployments". Citing half a dozen examples is still dwarfed by the number of times Company and Chapter-level deployments were mentioned in the timeline; and again in most cases they can be explained away as extraordinary circumstances.

Again: "can" is not the same as "often"

There is this
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gladius_Frigate
but its also a Space Marine vessel.

I already mentioned the Gladius Frigrate previously. Seriously. Take a look:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gladius_Frigate -> Primarily an escort vessel with 1 squad of Marines - but the squad is apparently a command squad; not a landing force

The description states specifically that the Space Marine squad is a command crew, not a boarding party. Otherwise, why are they generally stationed on the bridge?

In fact, given that the said frigate is never mentioned as having any Thunderhawks, how are these Marines going to be deployed on the planet? Drop them via Drop Pod and leave them there to rot?

So really, Pain Rack doesn't like reading contradictory evidence on what his grand vision of the grim dark future should be.

-----

Moreover, since Pain Rack is one of the proponents of "The Death Watch wastes resources by picking up individual Marines!", he is demonstrating a massive contradiction in his argument.

The Gladius is not a dedicated transport. It is primarily an escort vessel with considerable anti-ship armaments. Is it really efficient to send a warship out to isolated planets just to deliver an individual Marine squad? Especially a warship that doesn't specialize in planetary bombardments, but in escorting larger warships?

Pain Rack's position isn't even self-consistent, because he's just trying to nitpick (largely by shouting loudly) rather than attempting to actually form a coherent argument.

[PainRack]

I'm only responding to this, as Pain Rack is just going around in circles because he can't get it through his skull that "Space Marines can have squad-level deployments" is not the same as "Space Marines often deploy in squad level deployments". Citing half a dozen examples is still dwarfed by the number of times Company and Chapter-level deployments were mentioned in the timeline; and again in most cases they can be explained away as extraordinary circumstances.

Again: "can" is not the same as "often"

You fucking shifted the fucking goalposts. AGAIN.

Your argument is that Space Marines and Deathwatch are different war fighting machines. Spec ops so as to say, and you argue that Deathwatch deploy in squads, Space Marines don't. I already shown you that arguing that Deathwatch is spec ops, Space Marines aren't is ludricious. They draw the same missions, fight the same way and etc. The KEY crux is that the Deathwatch are insitutional anti xenos spec ops, something that I never fucking contended, and neither did you.

Now, you're hanging on the delusion that "can" is not the same as "often", because I shown ALL the evidence that its there.

I already mentioned the Gladius Frigrate previously. Seriously. Take a look
The description states specifically that the Space Marine squad is a command crew, not a boarding party. Otherwise, why are they generally stationed on the bridge?

In fact, given that the said frigate is never mentioned as having any Thunderhawks, how are these Marines going to be deployed on the planet? Drop them via Drop Pod and leave them there to rot?

So really, Pain Rack doesn't like reading contradictory evidence on what his grand vision of the grim dark future should be.

Actually, you WILL note of course that my argument isn't that hey, the Space Marines do have a vessel capable of landing Space Marines in planetary assault for squad level. I made it EXPLICITLY fucking clear that I'm not saying that.

What I noted was that if you take this argument literally, the Deathwatch DON"T have such vessels either. NONE of the vessels mentioned are capable of deploying a single squad of space marines.

However, the Deathwatch does modify the Gladius frigate to do that, namely, the Thunder Word. There is hence no reason to assume that if neccessary, Space Marines chapters won't do that either.

Since you're a fucking moron who distorted my words, pray tell how did you get Gladius frigate can assault planets with one squad from

but its also a Space Marine vessel.

Hmmm..... Does it play a role in Space Marines insertion? No idea. Does it play a role in inserting Deathwatch? Oh mine. Yes...
So..... can I prove that the Space Marines don't use the Gladius that way? I can't. I don't play Gothic. But your argument that the Space Marines don't have a warship that can transport a single squad?

And of course, mind addressing why your objection is so fatal to Space marines, when the deathwatch is

Then you argue that they don't have spaceships capable of deploying a single squad. Hell, let's take this on its head shall we? The freaking DEATHWATCH relies on

Quote:
destroyers, frigates, and other classes of rapid strike
vessel, along with modified Hunter-class destroyers known
as Dark Hunters. Larger warships and also several captured
raider vessels and merchantmen are held in reserve should a
particular mission warrant their use.
he lighter classes of vessels suit the needs of the
Deathwatch admirably, as their missions most commonly
need to deploy and extract very small numbers of Deathwatch
Battle-Brothers with great speed, precision, and when called
for, subterfuge. Like other Space Marine vessels, the warships
of the Deathwatch are primarily crewed by servitors and
oath-bonded serfs, with a handful of Battle-Brothers serving
as command crew

None of these warships can deploy a single squad reliably.

Go on.

Moreover, since Pain Rack is one of the proponents of "The Death Watch wastes resources by picking up individual Marines!", he is demonstrating a massive contradiction in his argument.

hahaha. Its also fucking ludricious because your COUNTER-ARGUMENT that the Deathwatch doesn't waste resources, is that it send starships to pick up individual marines. Let's see the scale here shall we?
"Its inefficient and unreliable to send a starship to multiple worlds to pick up one space marine."
"Its too costly to send one starship to send one squad of space marines to fight."

Your inability to see the difference between the two is laughable.

Pain Rack's position isn't even self-consistent, because he's just trying to nitpick (largely by shouting loudly) rather than attempting to actually form a coherent argument.

Self consistent? SERIOUSLY. WTF?
You're the one who argued that Deathwatch is spec ops,Green berets vs Space Marines rangers. I said no, they're not. They draw the same missions.
You then argued that its different, because Deathwatch fight small squads. I show so? Space Marines have that capability too and use it. I later elaborate on this by even showing they do the same missions the Deathwatch do, while fighting in the same doctrine and manner.

And you fucking IGNORED all of these. You shifted your rebuttal away from everything into now claiming "its all exceptions to the norm." I think I'm still fucking GRACIOUS enough to ask you what was your fucking STANDARD to determine the norm because I lost your cool when you insisted that I didn't show any evidence, am inconsistent, etc etc etc.

WHAT FUCKING EVIDENCE HAVE YOU POSTED HERE YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT? THAT TIMELINES SAY SPACE MARINES DEPLOY COMPANIES?
THAT"S FUCKING IT??!?!?!?!?!?!

Simon Jester already shown you why that's an IDIOTIC statement, and it simply DOESN"T FUCKING REBUT CHAOS CODEX FLUFF. It gets even MORE fucking irritating because I then shown you why THIS DOESN"T compute. Lord Dante deployed multiple companies to Armaggadeon. YET, the CRITICAL capture and defence of the bridgehead that cut off the Ork tribes were done by 2 fucking squads of Space Marines, later reinforced to another two.

YOUR SOLE FUCKING DEFENCE IS TO SAY HEY, THIS IS A LARGE UNIT ACTION AND NOT LIKE A TYPICAL DEATHWATCH MISSION. SO FUCKING WHAT? Its adequately shows your reliance on using the timeline to say that no squad actions ever take place is IDIOTIC.

[Eviscerator]

I am really tired of this horseshit:

Evidence shown:

* Timeline shows ZERO notable single-squad deployments
* The Space Marines have ZERO known warships that specialize in single squad deployments
* You have yet to show any evidence showing this is not the case. All you've done is show examples, which in almost every case has been shown to be exceptions rather than the rule.

".

1) sufficient evidence thrown out that if nothing else: SM do go out in numbers less than 11 Reasons vary: ranging from conservation of troops to insufficient troops to send in the first place
2) They do not require to have a specialised warship for such, obviously the Iron Snakes had to have been able to send that brother somehow....

3) Hammer of Daemons Pg 16: In a perfect galaxy they would have sent armies of SM ------ but the Galaxy was far from perfect --- spread across a thousand worlds ---
Last sentence of Chap 1 Hammer of Daemons: The inquisition's contribution to the defence of Sarthis Majoris consisted of Justicar Alaric and four Grey Knights

[Zinegata]

I'm ignoring Pain Rack going around in circles, acting like a fucking baby, and making lies about how I'm moving goalposts again, when I have done no such thing. Again, how many fucking times do I have to repeat the exact same argument, and be accused of "moving goalposts"? I have been accused of moving goalposts 4 seperate times despite making the exact same argument 4 times. This is bullshit.

Instead, I will again focus on SM warships, because it's actual new ground:

What I noted was that if you take this argument literally, the Deathwatch DON"T have such vessels either. NONE of the vessels mentioned are capable of deploying a single squad of space marines.

Yes they do. The Inquisition does have exterminatus ships which carry the DW around. They're about cruiser-sized, but you're not wasting resources by using them to carry just one squad because they also carry Exterminatus munitions.

The rest of Pain Rack's argument regarding SM ships boils down to rage-fuelled stupidity wherein he can't see how deploying a Gladius frigate (assuming it can deploy Marines) is a pretty inefficient way of trucking around a squad of Marines; and yet he rails against the DW for trucking around individual Marines all over the galaxy in specialized ships that are supposed to go around the galaxy investigating things.

That's not consistent argument, ladies and gentlemen. That's just having a pre-conceived conclusions and refusing to accept any evidence other than his own grand vision of the grim dark future. It's sad and laughable.

[Zinegata]

1) sufficient evidence thrown out that if nothing else: SM do go out in numbers less than 11 Reasons vary: ranging from conservation of troops to insufficient troops to send in the first place

"Can" deploy is not the same as "often" deploy. You lose. Thank you for playing.

2) They do not require to have a specialised warship for such, obviously the Iron Snakes had to have been able to send that brother somehow....

Or, if you'd read Iron Snakes fluff carefully, you'll notice that the Iron Snakes operate in a relatively small corner of Imperial Space (Reef Worlds). So they can probably have on Strike Cruiser visit 5 planets in a row and drop a squad each there.

3) Hammer of Daemons Pg 16: In a perfect galaxy they would have sent armies of SM ------ but the Galaxy was far from perfect --- spread across a thousand worlds ---

Hey, dumbass - so you actually admit that under ideal conditions they would have sent "armies" of Space Marines? And therefore Imperial doctrine does state you should rely on Company and Chapter level deployments? Hence the lack of a dedicated spaceship for squad-sized deployments?

You just admitted I'm right. Good job!

Last sentence of Chap 1 Hammer of Daemons: The inquisition's contribution to the defence of Sarthis Majoris consisted of Justicar Alaric and four Grey Knights

Right. And are the Grey KNights a Codex chapter? Are they typical in every way compared to any other chapter? Again, pointing to exceptions to disprove frequency is dumb and dishonest.

[Gunhead]

So let's recap..

1) It has been established there's a political and organizational reason for the Deathwatch to exist.

2) They perform a certain role that they specialize in. They are geared and trained to fullfill a certain role which is to to fight, and develop methods to fight, xeno species.

3) Other chapters may be adept at fighting xenos but do not specifically train or adapt their doctrine to fight xenos, certain exceptions not included.

Basically points 2 and two answer the OP and even if EVERY marine chapter was just as good at what DW does, point 1 lords above all else.
Shit even the opposite is true, even if DW got the rejects, dregs and misfits from all the chapters, they'd still be way above what other methods that are allready in place in the IoM could produce. Hell, rejects, misfits and dregs might even make really good DW marines, considering you can spend a decade or two retraining them.

Blegh.. I just said good things about the space marines.. I feel sick... and may throw up.

Wether they deploy as a team, group, army, battallion, squad, platoon, cohort, brigade and / or regiment has roughly sweet fuck all to do with the OP. These are matters that come up only when they do deploy and are mission specific details.

-Gunhead

[white_rabbit]

Posted by Painrack, the Fucking Idiot

Oh geez. Maybe if you had read the "waffle", you MIGHT have considered that if the Inquisition had simply created their own chapter, they would had gotten these benefits just as easily, without the attendent costs of sending ships nilly willy to collect recruits.

You MIGHT also want to read about how the fucking Deathwatch rulebook states that Marines don't even expect to return to their chapter alive after a Deathwatch tour you dipshit.

Are you fucking serious ?

Tell me, have you done some sort of detailed analysis that allows you to judge that you can get the "value" of an experienced veteran Marine as a baseline unit to be further trained by the Deathwatch/Inquisition, without having to have ships ferrying guys around anyway ?

These aren't raw recruits, they are fully fledged space marines who are then given additional training. You'd have to send ships around across the entire galaxy "willy nilly" anyway to get the level of knowledge and experience derived from recruiting guys from existing chapters. This isn't even the same situation as the Grey Knights, who are organised in a single chapter, but spread across the galaxy on missions. Their level of knowledge is even more arcane and dangerous than the more pervasive threat of aliens.

As far as I can tell, you've spent this thread with your objections being crushed repeatedly, forcing you to shift the goalposts constantly on what your problem is with the Deathwatch.

It was nice to see you are still as fucking worthless as a debater as you've always been, given that I'm left to wonder why a Deathwatcher expecting to die in the service of the Deathwatch is supposed to mean something in terms of a rebuttal to my entire post.

I mean, you are fucking wittering about reading the Deathwatch rulebook, reading your posts here, I have to ask, have you read the damn thing at all ?

[Eviscerator]

Dayum, hoss, creating a chapter is simple!!!! All you have to do is get this thing called Geneseed, find some young tykes , inject them and there you have it then! A Chapter of Spessh Muhreens!!!!

Correct me if im wrong but there's nothing "simple" about creating even your Standard SM, it takes years to create even a Scout not to mention a Captain.... long story short: SM already need to send ships willy nilly around the galaxy to find even one or two candidates and it then takes several additional years to train said candidate and if anything goes wrong you... dont get even a Scout for all your trouble

Multiply it by several thousand ....

But anyway its not gonna matter because we're shifting the goalposts and we're all dipshits according to TS's opinion

[Eviscerator]

As already quoted, the definition of a single mission may mean a campaign of years of vigil. Of course, this just creates ANOTHER problem vis a vis Vietnam, when US soldiers of different tour lengths return back States side.

[.

The problem you are referring to being units having to plan deployments and losing troopers during a campaign???? Show us a single incident where the DEROS problem is replicated in Wh40k.

What problem are we talking about here? Does DW Marine Jack tell his captain: Hey, Cap, my DEROC (Date of expected return to Chapter) is up , so i don't care two bits about the xens, i gots to get on the next evac out of here most ricky-tick!!!

As an asides (military trivia):
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_was_ ... in_Vietnam

With all of that having been said, it was still possible for Army and Marine career soldiers to serve two, three or four tours "in-country",
And there's a fellow who spent 7 Years in SEA who didn't come out voluntarily, they had to shanghai him back stateside,

[Connor MacLeod]

Shit even the opposite is true, even if DW got the rejects, dregs and misfits from all the chapters, they'd still be way above what other methods that are allready in place in the IoM could produce. Hell, rejects, misfits and dregs might even make really good DW marines, considering you can spend a decade or two retraining them.

Actually I'm not sure that would be as atypical as you make it sound here. I mean what is the "ideal" Space Marine as portrayed? There's room for variations, but at their core they are fanatical killing machines trained for and used for specifici (elite) purposes concerned with direct warfare. They don't have to be deep thinkers, long term planners, or even sneaky to be that per se (and some of them will even abhor those things.) As far as the regular battle brothers go that's fine. But when you get to the officers (the Sergeants, commanders, etc.) or the Scouts (or scout leaders) you need a different mindset. And not every Space Marine will be suited to that. I mean we've seen quite often that those who often lead or command Space Marine Squads, Companies and even the Chapters tend to "stand out" from the Marines around them and may even be seen as aberrants by the troopers around them, but they tend to be noted by at least some of the higher "officers" for those qualities too.

I would imagine that something similiar can be said of the Deathwatch. As har as physical qualities/abilities go one Deathwatch marine may not be different from a regular Space Marine. OR even as far as most of the training they get is concerned. But Deathwatch marines seem to be marked out as "special" (in the sense of being different from Space Marines) much the same way some officers are. And that probably means not all Space Marines have the mentality to be Deathwatch. I mean if your'e an honor obsessed (Chapter honor or personal honor) Space Marine, or you won't condone certain tactics or activities because they're unnatural to you (EG stealth, or retreat, or such), or you can't get over a hatred of psykers (evne Space Marine Psykers) you probably aren't ideal Deathwatch material.

Blegh.. I just said good things about the space marines.. I feel sick... and may throw up.

-Gunhead

Thats okay I'm sure we'll violently disagree over many other things and you can feel btter about that. There's always the Imperial Guard.

[Connor MacLeod]

For that matter it's probably just as fair to note that Space Marine Chapters as a rule tend not to be uniform. It's not as if there aren't some Chapters that become more Radical (or even Heretical, like the Relictors) or who come into conflict with other more purist Chapters. (THere are ones like Marines Malevolent and IIRC the Flesh Tearers who may conflict with other Chapters as well.) In that context we can simply look at the Deathwatch as being a "Chapter" which is more radical/flexible than most in the way it operates and what it does.

[PainRack]

This is bullshit Zinnegata. I asked you politely before what is the standard of evidence required to prove something, you refused to reply and continue to insist that this isn't the norm.

You insist that jumping around from mission orientation to squad size ISN"T shifting goalposts, and ignore that I posted evidence to the contary? Fine.


Address Warships? Again. THUNDER WORLD. What is it? Its a Gladius Frigate, that's EXPLICTLY stated to be used to deploy Deathwatch Marines. A SINGLE SQUAD of DEATHWATCH marines.

Note the other warships involved? Dark Hunters are modified to carry thunderhawks IIRC, everything else? Same type of light strike vessels the Space Marines carry. In other words, your so fatal objection to the Space Marines lacking no warships to deploy Space Marines apply just as equally to the Deathwatch if one chooses to be an annoying bastard, but hey, since you absolutely refuse to address this point, concession accepted.

[Gunhead]

Shit even the opposite is true, even if DW got the rejects, dregs and misfits from all the chapters, they'd still be way above what other methods that are allready in place in the IoM could produce. Hell, rejects, misfits and dregs might even make really good DW marines, considering you can spend a decade or two retraining them.

Actually I'm not sure that would be as atypical as you make it sound here. I mean what is the "ideal" Space Marine as portrayed? There's room for variations, but at their core they are fanatical killing machines trained for and used for specifici (elite) purposes concerned with direct warfare. They don't have to be deep thinkers, long term planners, or even sneaky to be that per se (and some of them will even abhor those things.) As far as the regular battle brothers go that's fine. But when you get to the officers (the Sergeants, commanders, etc.) or the Scouts (or scout leaders) you need a different mindset. And not every Space Marine will be suited to that. I mean we've seen quite often that those who often lead or command Space Marine Squads, Companies and even the Chapters tend to "stand out" from the Marines around them and may even be seen as aberrants by the troopers around them, but they tend to be noted by at least some of the higher "officers" for those qualities too.

I would imagine that something similiar can be said of the Deathwatch. As har as physical qualities/abilities go one Deathwatch marine may not be different from a regular Space Marine. OR even as far as most of the training they get is concerned. But Deathwatch marines seem to be marked out as "special" (in the sense of being different from Space Marines) much the same way some officers are. And that probably means not all Space Marines have the mentality to be Deathwatch. I mean if your'e an honor obsessed (Chapter honor or personal honor) Space Marine, or you won't condone certain tactics or activities because they're unnatural to you (EG stealth, or retreat, or such), or you can't get over a hatred of psykers (evne Space Marine Psykers) you probably aren't ideal Deathwatch material.

Of course but maybe I should have made my point more clear. I'm under the distinct impression that Deathwatch recruits are what would be considered good marines in their native chapters and being assigned to DW is not considered by most as punishment or some other form of shame. Nor is DW a generally viewed by the chapters as a dumping ground for undesirables. Now this in no way stops some chapters from using DW to get rid of people they don't want around, but as I see it, it would be the exception rather than the rule. This is more what I was driving at.

-Gunhead

P.S I will bitterly disagree with you on some other topic.