Cowl tries to argue B5 weaponry

[Connor MacLeod]

not that I know if. 'decline' is a very open ended term. Militarily they don't seem to be in decline - as I said we saw them taking on the League and Narns in Season 5 and they seemed to be kicking ass. Hell 20 years down the line (in one of the novel series) they actually manage to build a thousands-strong fleet in secret which they intended to use to ambush and decapitate the alliance. That's not the activities of an empire on the verge of falling apart. Economically they seem to be fine as well, albeit they're largely in the trade of selling/trading their high technology to lesser races (at least to certain extents. I believe they had deals with Earth Alliance for example.) and I imagine they do a fair bit of trading, so I doubt they are in any sort of economic or financial decline. We get no indications that their people are dying off or suffering from low birthrates or anything like that, so there's no reason to believe that is an issue.

Culturally? That's quite possible. They're no longer at their heights (although they like to pretend that and grandstand in front of the other races) - their golden age as an empire is long past. They seem caught up in their own intrigues and internal matter,s they don't seem to look much outwards (except for dispalys of bravado and economic matters) and their influence is no better or worse than their contemporaries. As I said I never got the impression that they had any drive to grow or expand aggressively (The way, for example, Earth Alliance did.)

[Stofsk]

Yeah they're in decline. It's one of the central motivations behind Londo going to Morden when he answered his question 'what do you want'.

It's not a technological or military thing, but seems to be a cultural or societal thing. In the very first episode when Sinclair goes to Kosh to ask him to support a measure to try and force the centauri and the narn to the table, he replies 'they are a dying people, we should let them pass'. Now I know that's a non-literal sort of statement so it can't be taken at face value, but it's a central theme of the show and it underscores the pettiness inherent in both cultures and their conflict with each other.

[Thanas]

Culturally? That's quite possible. They're no longer at their heights (although they like to pretend that and grandstand in front of the other races) - their golden age as an empire is long past. They seem caught up in their own intrigues and internal matter,s they don't seem to look much outwards (except for dispalys of bravado and economic matters) and their influence is no better or worse than their contemporaries. As I said I never got the impression that they had any drive to grow or expand aggressively (The way, for example, Earth Alliance did.)

Well, earth kinda needs to expand just to get colonies etc. Culturally, the centauri seem to be stuck in a bit of high culture - they seem to want to adopt artists from other cultures and like creativity which they feal they have lost...like Londo said in the beginning. So yeah, culturally they seem to be a bit stuck.

I just don't put so much stock in a cultural decline. Those things happen to every empire....and then they pass. See for example the Roman empire whose culture remained stagnant for over a century....and then exploded in a wave of innovation. Cultural decline can be reversed, a reversal of serious economic and/or military decline is a bit more serious.

(who knows, maybe Londo breathed new cultural life into them in his own way. He certainly enhanced the drinking culture. )

[Themightytom]

All of this simply says that the Centauri were unwilling to defeat the Narn. Not that they were unable to defeat the Narn (or the EA). Which was the original contention of Cowl and you in this thread.

If the above was your point, congrats, you just spent hours arguing against a point nobody was disagreeing with.

Oh there's been massive but admittedly incoherent, disagreement from Stark on that point, who has been dismissing the role politics play in a government's ability to prosecute a war, and now Batman disagrees that the Shadows were even influencing politics.

Sorry I have to lol. Expansion = must have bigger ships! LAW OF PHYSICS! Design philosophies and tactical niches bow before Tom's fanfic. :v

Are you an idiot? Bigger ships hold more fuel, more supples and can therefore go further and come back less often.

...You seriously think the went from an agrarian society to interstellar space power in a matter of decades by reverse engineering Centauri technology?
You're even more delusional than I thought.

It's been stated in the series Batman. Watch A Matter of Honor. The narn were peaceful farmers, primitive as of the end of the last shadow war, when the Centauri were just getting into space. They claimed they had at least space travel but the Centauri say they didn't even have that, either way, the narn resistance reverse engineered weapons from what they stole from the Centauri.

The point, which obviously completely flew over your head, was that nobody batted an eye at the Centauri trouncing the Narns. Which would have been the case if that had been unexpected. All the Shadows did was make the EA not give a damn, at no point was it indicated that they twisted the EA's (or anybody else's) perceptions of Centauri military capabilities. Which, to anybody sane, means that the Centauri kicking the Narns in the teeth didn't come as much of a surprise

That is the most unstantiated anectdotal asessment I have ever seen. Nobody acted surprised? That's your support for the claim that the Centauri could defeat the Narn?

There was widespread outrage at the the tactics the Centauri used, did you here people saying "Oh, good thing they bombed their homeworld, that war would have just dragged out." With Dr. Franklin, and lennier and Sheridan all going to bat for the Narn, if youw ant to go by anectdote, None of them thought the Centauri should win.

Regardless that's irrelevant. What the Centauri were doing was at the instigation of the Shadows, and once started it had it's own momentum. All of those "What's got into you " arguments characters like Garibaldi, and Sheridan had with Vir and londo showed the change in character of their people. They became ruthless and Imperial, where they weren't before, because they were in a war, and winning. They were in the war because of the shadows, and they were winning, because of what the Shadows did for, and to them politically.

Culturally? That's quite possible. They're no longer at their heights (although they like to pretend that and grandstand in front of the other races) - their golden age as an empire is long past. They seem caught up in their own intrigues and internal matter,s they don't seem to look much outwards (except for dispalys of bravado and economic matters) and their influence is no better or worse than their contemporaries. As I said I never got the impression that they had any drive to grow or expand aggressively (The way, for example, Earth Alliance did.)

Well, earth kinda needs to expand just to get colonies etc. Culturally, the centauri seem to be stuck in a bit of high culture - they seem to want to adopt artists from other cultures and like creativity which they feal they have lost...like Londo said in the beginning. So yeah, culturally they seem to be a bit stuck.

I just don't put so much stock in a cultural decline. Those things happen to every empire....and then they pass. See for example the Roman empire whose culture remained stagnant for over a century....and then exploded in a wave of innovation. Cultural decline can be reversed, a reversal of serious economic and/or military decline is a bit more serious.

(who knows, maybe Londo breathed new cultural life into them in his own way. He certainly enhanced the drinking culture. )

There were entire episodes devoted to Lando and his friends bemoaning the decline. When Lando complains that they were "once" the lions of the galaxy, that doesn't particularly suggest that they still are. When he talks in the past tense to Earth gov that "even at the height of their power they would not have challenged the Mimbari" that is evidence of decline. I don't what you're looking for with the term "Decline" beyond cultural, but that's exactly what I have been arguing, that the Centauri didn't have the will they once had, until the Shadows stirred it back up.

[Batman]

Sorry I have to lol. Expansion = must have bigger ships! LAW OF PHYSICS! Design philosophies and tactical niches bow before Tom's fanfic. :v

Are you an idiot? Bigger ships hold more fuel, more supples and can therefore go further and come back less often.

There's an idiot here but it's sure as hell not Stark. For starters, bigger ships also use more fuel and supplies. And you can easily expand with smaller ships, you'll just have to set up a denser network of resupply points. Which is, incidentally, the smarter thing to do.

...You seriously think the went from an agrarian society to interstellar space power in a matter of decades by reverse engineering Centauri technology?
You're even more delusional than I thought.

It's been stated in the series Batman.

No it hasn't.

Watch A Matter of Honor. The narn were peaceful farmers, primitive as of the end of the last shadow war, when the Centauri were just getting into space. They claimed they had at least space travel but the Centauri say they didn't even have that, either way, the narn resistance reverse engineered weapons from what they stole from the Centauri.

None of which says the Narn went from agrarian society to FTL capable by reverse engineering Centauri technology I'm afraid? Or mentions a time frame?

The point, which obviously completely flew over your head, was that nobody batted an eye at the Centauri trouncing the Narns. Which would have been the case if that had been unexpected. All the Shadows did was make the EA not give a damn, at no point was it indicated that they twisted the EA's (or anybody else's) perceptions of Centauri military capabilities. Which, to anybody sane, means that the Centauri kicking the Narns in the teeth didn't come as much of a surprise

That is the most unstantiated anectdotal asessment I have ever seen. Nobody acted surprised? That's your support for the claim that the Centauri could defeat the Narn?

Since you have yet to show any evidence that they couldn't I'd say that's more than you have done. Yes, if the Centauri had been evenly matched (or even superior but only just so victory would have been probable but costly) somebody would have noticed that the inevitable massive Centauri losses in that situation somehow didn't happen. Yet nobody was the tiniest bit surprised when the Centauri steamrolled the Narns. Not the Centauri with the help of the Shadows, whom at that point hardly anybody but the Minbari knew about. Yes, I think nobody being surprised by that IS a pretty good indicator that the Centauri had the military capability to do it all on their own.

There was widespread outrage at the the tactics the Centauri used, did you here people saying "Oh, good thing they bombed their homeworld, that war would have just dragged out." With Dr. Franklin, and lennier and Sheridan all going to bat for the Narn, if youw ant to go by anectdote, None of them thought the Centauri should win.

Which has what, exactly, got to do with whether or not they could win? What in Valen's name has the outrage of people at their tactics got to do with their capabilities? Whatever people thought of the methods the Centauri used to win, the point (which apparently eluded you again) was nobody was surprised they DID win.

Regardless that's irrelevant.

No it's not. It quite clearly shows that pretty much everybody expected the Centauri to wipe the floor with the Narn anyway given they at that point nobody but the Minbari knew about the Shadows.

What the Centauri were doing was at the instigation of the Shadows, and once started it had it's own momentum. All of those "What's got into you " arguments characters like Garibaldi, and Sheridan had with Vir and londo showed the change in character of their people. They became ruthless and Imperial, where they weren't before, because they were in a war, and winning. They were in the war because of the shadows, and they were winning, because of what the Shadows did for, and to them politically.

They would have won anyway.

There were entire episodes devoted to Lando and his friends bemoaning the decline.

And there's totally no people today who bemoan the olden days when everything was better.

When Lando complains that they were "once" the lions of the galaxy, that doesn't particularly suggest that they still are.

They never were. They were wary of taking on the Minbari, leave alone the Vorlons.

When he talks in the past tense to Earth gov that "even at the height of their power they would not have challenged the Mimbari" that is evidence of decline

No it's not. It's evidence of Londo thinking it's evidence of decline.

I don't what you're looking for with the term "Decline"

The Centauri actually being worse off (lower GDP, lower average income, higher poverty, higher crime rate etc) as opposed to simply no longer being the biggest bully on the galactic shoolyard?

[lance]

Does the Centauri empire at its height being the soviet union from around 1970ish and the current one being russia from 2000's work as an analogy?

[Stark]

It's more like the 80s; they can see the end coming, but don't have any plans to avert it. All the reactionaries, hardliners and conservatives see war as the answer, not liberalization.

[Ahriman238]

Does the Centauri empire at its height being the soviet union from around 1970ish and the current one being russia from 2000's work as an analogy?

Possibly, if there were compelling evidence of it. I can certainly believe standard of living went down the toilet after the great bombardment, but before that?

The only one we see really talk about the Empire's decline is Londo. Some of Londo's claims I'm inclined to believe (no one calls bullshit when he says the territory controlled by the Centauri is far less than what it used to be.) But Londo's big problem at the start of the series is the Centauri placating and appeasing the hostile Narn, never rising to the provocations worthy of war that the Narn keep offering.

As far as I can, that was purely a result of the then-emperor's policy of reconciliation with the Narn, not because of any lack of ability or desire to go to war on the part of the average Centauri aristo.

[Stark]

I think the Centauri used to have broad powers and rights over other races that they have lost for various reasons. Their influence has certainly contracted.

[Themightytom]

Are you an idiot? Bigger ships hold more fuel, more supples and can therefore go further and come back less often.

There's an idiot here but it's sure as hell not Stark. For starters, bigger ships also use more fuel and supplies. And you can easily expand with smaller ships, you'll just have to set up a denser network of resupply points. Which is, incidentally, the smarter thing to do.

Oh yeah, bigger ships always use more fuel... like oil tankers... the whole problem with "expanding" is that there AREN'T already gas stations set up? On the other hand if you fly a carrier in, it BECOMES the supply point for the fighters it carries.

And...no... it's NOT the smarter thing to do when you're talking about HUGE expanses of empty space Batman because it would be incredibly expensive building a three dimensional hub of supply depots to keep routes open that may not have anything very worth while at points along the way.

...You seriously think the went from an agrarian society to interstellar space power in a matter of decades by reverse engineering Centauri technology?
You're even more delusional than I thought.

It's been stated in the series Batman.

No it hasn't.

[/quote]

Oh wait a minute, first, YOU"RE the one who stuck the "In a matter of decades" caveat in there, but the episode I was thinking of was Midnight on the Firing Line, not Matters of Honor. I was watching it for comments about the Centauri victory over the Narn and I have my titles all mixed up.

Watch A Matter of Honor. The narn were peaceful farmers, primitive as of the end of the last shadow war, when the Centauri were just getting into space. They claimed they had at least space travel but the Centauri say they didn't even have that, either way, the narn resistance reverse engineered weapons from what they stole from the Centauri.

None of which says the Narn went from agrarian society to FTL capable by reverse engineering Centauri technology I'm afraid? Or mentions a time frame?

[/quote]

From Midnight on the firing line, G'Kar flipping out in the first meeting of the league, The Centauri occupation lasted a 100 years old. Later he states Ragesh three an agricultural was originally a narn colony, 30 years ago, according to Delenn's little speech about ending blood shed. The Narn had several colonies so it is possible they at least knew where Jump gates were, though it isn't stated in the episode. G'Kar describes Narn territory as a "Sector" and I misremembered it with the conversation he had with Sinclair about Narn being a green world until the Centauri came, and now they were just starting to grow trees. There's another episode where Londo is shitting on G'Kar for complaining about this, as they have been strip mining their world as well after the Centauri left, to build a powerful military. The Narn were, however taking Centauri territories without opposition from the Centauri government throughout Season one, and in the conversation preceding the attack on Gorash, one of the Narn comments that they've lost "30 years of territorial gains". G'kar said in "And now for a word" G'kar talks about being a pouchling during the occupation. That establishes the time frame of occupation and Narn recovery. There's also a bottom limit for Narn advancement, they were still primitive at the end of the Shadow war, while the Centauri were venturing into space.

So I concede the FTL question because I misremembered Londo accusing the Narn of not even having had spaceflight, I don't know what episode that was. I can't even find the one about the narn reverse engineering Centauri weapons. However, since G'Kar was a pouchling, the Narn went from being under occupation to building a fleet and using it to take Centauri territory in his lifetime.

The point, which obviously completely flew over your head, was that nobody batted an eye at the Centauri trouncing the Narns. Which would have been the case if that had been unexpected. All the Shadows did was make the EA not give a damn, at no point was it indicated that they twisted the EA's (or anybody else's) perceptions of Centauri military capabilities. Which, to anybody sane, means that the Centauri kicking the Narns in the teeth didn't come as much of a surprise

No, I got your point, but again, just because nobody batted an eye doesn't mean the Narn were perceived as less capable than the Centauri, they WERE on the B5 Advisory board, after all suggesting they were perceived as in the same league, or able to exert a significant degree of influence. The Mimbari surrendered to the Earth when they had clearly won the war, surprise doesn't indicate anything in the B5 universe it's not straightforward enough.

That is the most unsubstantiated anecdotal assessment I have ever seen. Nobody acted surprised? That's your support for the claim that the Centauri could defeat the Narn?

Since you have yet to show any evidence that they couldn't I'd say that's more than you have done.

That's a crock, I've given plenty of evidence that the Centauri lacked the political will to mobilize against them, as well as the unfortunate tendency to over reach and misread political situations. You're trying to strawman with a comparison of military technology because you hadn't considered the Shadows influence on politics. Way to miss the whole point of the second, third, and fourth seasons.

Yes, I think nobody being surprised by that IS a pretty good indicator that the Centauri had the military capability to do it all on their own.

Just because they have the hypothetical capability to do it doesn't mean they can actually do it. They DIDN'T do anything until the Shadows got involved. You are only looking at the ships, and not the people flying them, not the people ordering their deployment, not the people making policy. Would France succeed in an invasion of Israel?

Which has what, exactly, got to do with whether or not they could win? What in Valen's name has the outrage of people at their tactics got to do with their capabilities? Whatever people thought of the methods the Centauri used to win, the point (which apparently eluded you again) was nobody was surprised they DID win.

It has everything to do with the political repercussions of what they were doing, and the potential response of other governments in Narn's favor. B5's League of nonaligned worlds was ready to sanction Narn for attacking a 5000 person colony, they should have been all over the Centauri for bombing the narn, now I'm not claiming that would have helped the Narn during the war, but it is telling of the difference between the Shadows influence and the Centauri by themselves. The Centauri WERE hitting civillian convoys during the war and invading neighboring territories.

Regardless that's irrelevant.

No it's not. It quite clearly shows that pretty much everybody expected the Centauri to wipe the floor with the Narn anyway given they at that point nobody but the Minbari knew about the Shadows.

What the Centauri were doing was at the instigation of the Shadows, and once started it had it's own momentum. All of those "What's got into you " arguments characters like Garibaldi, and Sheridan had with Vir and londo showed the change in character of their people. They became ruthless and Imperial, where they weren't before, because they were in a war, and winning. They were in the war because of the shadows, and they were winning, because of what the Shadows did for, and to them politically.[/quote]
They would have won anyway. [/quote]

Why because they won when the Narn were more primitive, and didn't have trading partners and weren't participating in galactic affairs? It's a totally different scenario.

[quote="Batman]

There were entire episodes devoted to Lando and his friends bemoaning the decline.

And there's totally no people today who bemoan the olden days when everything was better.

When Lando complains that they were "once" the lions of the galaxy, that doesn't particularly suggest that they still are.

They never were. They were wary of taking on the Minbari, leave alone the Vorlons. [/quote]

Ok the Vorlons are a super super power, and the Mimbari are nearly in that league, saying the Centauri weren't once much greater than they are because they never took on those two is nonsensical. That's an unreasonable criteria. The Centauri by their own assessment are less than what they were, the Narn have been eating into their territory. The Centauri are in decline relative to themselves.

The Centauri actually being worse off (lower GDP, lower average income, higher poverty, higher crime rate etc) as opposed to simply no longer being the biggest bully on the galactic shoolyard?

[/quote]

Well actually that makes perfect sense as objective criteria, unfortunately they only list that kind of crap in RPG fluff now don't they. You're stuck using Occam's razor Batman, if multiple, influential Centauri claim the Empire is past it's glory days, it probably is, even making allowances for the fact that most of the Centauri I can recall complaining were talking about their youth, because if Londo is anywhere near G'Kar's age, the Centauri HAVE been declining in territory and influence.

[Thanas]

People talking about decline is pretty bad. Heck, they were talking about decline in Rome in the age of Caesar and Augustus. To some people, the USA is in decline despite having overwhelming superiority.

[Themightytom]

People talking about decline is pretty bad. Heck, they were talking about decline in Rome in the age of Caesar and Augustus. To some people, the USA is in decline despite having overwhelming superiority.

That's a fair point. if the Centauri bemoan their decline but haven't decline to the point where they aren't a superpower, than the decline would be subjectively interpreted as worse than it was, especially as Batman pointed out, if they were wrapping it up with the emotion tied to aging. That still influences their political will and ability to organize, they WERE still ceding territory to the Narn prior to the Shadows involvement, and their leadership was not at all aggressive towards them. As a matter of fact, in rewatching to find the episode I misquoted to Batman I found something I forgot, that in signs and portents, the shadows were already doing political favors for Londo, getting him The Eye after destroying the raiders ship. Even after they started getting involved the Centauri were still ineffectual for almost a year.

Consider the value that directing emotion has on political activity. We saw it in the US post 911, all manner of expenditure and aggressive action was justified by the "War on terror", literally, a war on a negative emotion. The Shadows instigated a war on stagnation and decay, that's pretty much their mission, is it really surprising that I am arguing that they actually implemented it effectively with the Centauri?

Lando's quote is a great example of the perception of decline, and how the Shadows manipulated it, Morden asks Londo "What do you want", Londo answers:

“I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power. I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment, afraid to look back or to look forward. I want us to be what we used to be. I want it all back the way that it was."

Dissecting that sentiment, Londo through himself into that statement, which I italicized the obvious reference to self, but underlined the past tense used when describing his people. Londo was the point man for a faction within the Centauri government that was not influential enough to shape policy, when Londo arrived at Babylon 5 and for his first year there. He was once the Ambassador to Earth, a new and apparently promising trading partner whom the Centauri tried to pass off as one of their own colonies. This was a period of only a couple decades or so after the Narn Occupation ended. his political ideology seemed to have more influence than, then it did when The Gathering took place.

Morden harnessed a politician's personal sense of irrelevance in order to gain a political foothold, which ultimately got the Shadows the ear of Emperor Cartagia, and survived him, in the form of the Drakh influence later

I think the Narn had the Centauri's measure. They knew what they could get away with and what they couldn't, they were carving up Centauri territory and were about to get an apology from the Centauri over it from the dominant political voice, until the Shadows arrived, enabled Mollari to gain in power and prestige, to connect with like minded others and mobilize their people through Shadow aided victories to defeat the Narn as we saw them do. The Narn didn't account for the shift in policy, nor the assistance of the Shadows. They had momentum and they lost it when the Centauri switched gears.

[jollyreaper]

Yeah they're in decline. It's one of the central motivations behind Londo going to Morden when he answered his question 'what do you want'.

It's not a technological or military thing, but seems to be a cultural or societal thing. In the very first episode when Sinclair goes to Kosh to ask him to support a measure to try and force the centauri and the narn to the table, he replies 'they are a dying people, we should let them pass'. Now I know that's a non-literal sort of statement so it can't be taken at face value, but it's a central theme of the show and it underscores the pettiness inherent in both cultures and their conflict with each other.

As I recall, neither they nor the Narns get to become Great Old Ones. (well, whatever you call it when a regular old race becomes super powerful like the First Ones.) From the episode Deconstruction of Falling Stars we saw a human become a ball of light and enter a humanoid encounter suit that looked a bit Vorlonish, implying that this is what we became. The Minbari were supposed to have progressed that far as well.

[Zinegata]

I think JMS mentions in the Lurker's Guide that the Humans and Minbari both eventually transcend, while the Centauri and Narn don't. The latter two don't die out however.