Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extractor

[Stark]

Stark: Scarabs in current game terms don't have rules for messing with machines, nor have I seen that in the fluff for a while. They are ludicrously good at eating tanks in game though, and their rules are written to represent this. There are said to be many versions, though, so the tank-futzing ones might be out there somewhere still.

Sorry, I haven't read anything about them since they came out and had a 12" nothing works on 6+ (or something). That would have been a lol in a TA vs. :V Did they change the necrons to be less imba later on? I remember scarabs basically deciding battles in early reports.

Getting under the ocean is (hopefully) his first thought, but if he's straight out of TA he won't be expecting to need it right away. Again its about pace; if he survives the initial counterattack and makes a break for it, he could trivially leave a string of independent bases behind him to try to slip into the ocean and hide. I wonder what the limits on the teleporting resources is; in the game the map size could be constrained by this. If possible he'd be best spreading his shit out as thin as he can under the ocean and keeping as low a profile as he can until he can get some kind of critical mass (or an escape route).

The best part about this idea is he would then become a 40k myth about a machine god causing ghostly vtol factories to surface from the ocean and launch hordes of crappy planes all over the planet, only to sink and be dormant for another six months.

This is as seen on the TA cover. ROBO RESURGENCE 39.998 THE ALGAE ASSAULT.

[Iracundus]

Trying to give a balanced viewpoint here because it seems this is all too easily falling into simple opinionated shouting for or against one side instead of any actual attempt at analyzing the abilities of each respective universe.

In 40K, not everyone has such easy access to orbital assets. An Imperial Governor for example when attacked often has to send for help, and the Imperial Navy can take awhile to respond.

The main strength of the TA nanolathe paradigm is the ability to set up a war economy with even a basic construction unit if given enough time. Even a Commander unit isn't strictly necessary. A Commander unit just makes things that much faster and provides early defense with its D-gun weapon. The TA forces would do best against Imperials, that lack such easy ability to set up industrial infrastructure, as it turns into a war of attrition. The TA nanolathe system's abilities are shown to be also able to reclaim raw materials from the debris of war, and also from natural features like boulders and trees. This gives it an edge over 40K Imperial resource reclamation efforts. So long as even one TA construction unit remains, it is possible to rebuild, so it means a TA force might be really difficult to stamp out.

The question of scale is tricky as there are so few points of reference to compare the units of TA against (other than each other). However the Core ending video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyWBEDIEyE4

does show for example a Core Raider tank briefly at the base of a tree. We know tanks are roughly comparable in size (and more durable) than K-bots. Whatever the size that TA K-bots are and whatever the power of their weapons are, they are not infantry scale. I guess the closest comparison in 40K might be more like 40K's walkers and dreadnoughts.

Also on the whole cloaking issue, for the Arm at least, there was a trick involving the underwater sub unit Fibber that could render a unit invisible on both radar and visually. As someone else has stated above, it means a Commander unit can hide move around and build in the oceans (or wherever it establishes a new land base).

In TA, the ocean is not a sideshow, because it was actually one of the fastest ways in TA to expand one's economy via the use of the carriers (which produced a net positive in energy output) to power "metal makers". It also allowed later for the construction of underwater fusion plants which could be hidden all over the map. I would argue a TA commander would establish an ocean presence as a high priority.

[Stark]

He sure will after everything else gets effortlessly blown to shit, but I think a bigger question is around how he'd be playing up to that point and if he'd be destroyed due to his position in the field. Once he's dead, who cares? 40k is full of regular resurgence of threats, and that's what they'd end up being. At least with a commander it's interesting thematically, as he's a character that arguably fits into 40k in an interesting way.

On a negron world I seriously doubt they'll have any problems finding stuff to wipe out a regular TA economy and forcing them on a probably eternal deferensive, unless they can very quickly seize transports and escape and that probably won't even occur to the poor bastard.

If necrons have transport planes, of course, the commander is doomed.

[JointStrikeFighter]

He probably only needs 5-10 minutes warning to escape to the ocean on a transport plane of his own.

In some ways a neuron world is better; on an empire world he might be the target of crusades from off world to destroy the heretical ai machine!

[Iracundus]

He probably only needs 5-10 minutes warning to escape to the ocean on a transport plane of his own.

In some ways a neuron world is better; on an empire world he might be the target of crusades from off world to destroy the heretical ai machine!

I disagree on this point. A Necron world would have both sides using nanotechnology, and the basic Necron infantry even if dwarfed by the size of TA units, has a chance of inflicting damage nonetheless through its Gauss weaponry.

In contrast, on an Imperial human world, human infantry would be hard pressed to do anything with their standard issue lasgun or autoguns if K-bots are the size of walkers or more. Sure they might try for things like satchel charges or rely on their heavier weapons, but it means their line infantry ends up being useless cannon fodder. The mobility of Imperial tanks is also pathetic as the official figures from Forge World puts them on the same speed as WWI/interwar/WWII tanks. Modern tanks run rings already around 40K tanks.

Moreover, the differences in industrial capabilities are more mismatched in favor of TA on an Imperial world since in 40K human manufacturing is still like that of late 19th and 20th century style factories. 40K humans are less able to quickly exploit natural resources than the nanolathe systems of TA since in 40K humans are still digging mines and building big refinery complexes and then factory assembly lines staffed by unskilled labor.

Finally there are the simple biological requirements of keeping humans alive. In TA, the forces of both sides are either in self contained units with life support or are "patterns" and require none. In contrast, 40K Imperials would still need to sustain things like food infrastructure whether this be farms or offworld imports, and all the other necessities of maintaining life. The use of atomics in 40K appears to be highly discouraged and taboo, either due to its effects on the land or the human genome, whereas TA forces don't seem to care about the use of tactical nuclear weapons. This advantage would not be present on a Necron world, since then both sides would be uncaring of the need to maintain or preserve an environment conducive to human life.

[JointStrikeFighter]

You are thinking too tactically; it doesn't matter if the commander wins on a human world because off world forces will just come in and blow him up from space. On a neuron world if he is running his crazy insurgency from underwater with hundred aircraft raids of shit fighters every weeks the neurons might just leave and go somewhere else; they won't be ideologically bound to burn the heresy

[Iracundus]

You are thinking too tactically; it doesn't matter if the commander wins on a human world because off world forces will just come in and blow him up from space. On a neuron world if he is running his crazy insurgency from underwater with hundred aircraft raids of shit fighters every weeks the neurons might just leave and go somewhere else; they won't be ideologically bound to burn the heresy

Actually I don't see where people come from on dismissing the TA fighters. They are capable of running in vacuum in space as well as atmosphere equally well, which the Imperium cannot do (it requires dedicated space fighters and has "aerospace" fighters that are really more atmosphere fighters with limited rocket boost to space). They are also able to be mass produced ready to fly in numbers that the Imperials cannot do, since the Imperium is still reliant on flight schools.

Also TA in terms of background does have spaceships. The Galactic War reports mention them. Now where they are built from isn't said, but in terms of universe story, they were originally obsoleted by Galactic Gates (which were networked so you can compare them to 40K's Webway in a way). However they made a comeback, so I don't think it entirely fair to claim there will be instantly and always orbital superiority in favor of 40K.

Finally, there is a difference between what the Imperium claims ideologically and what it actually does sometimes. It may claim it is going to destroy anything alien or heretical or that smacks of AI, but often their response is what you said for the Necrons: they may end up ignoring the threat or falling back and quarantining the threat instead of actually destroying it. Similarly, they sometimes end up in brief alliances or periods of peace with aliens, presumably using the logic of "We'll kill you later after the other threats are dealt with".

[Stark]

It's my understanding that necrons sometimes chill out in their tombs and ignore the inhabitants of a planet entirely. If they aren't already active it might take them some time to wind up a response. I think, however, the necrons will be pretty persistent in pursuit once they spot him. I'm not sure what'd be best for the TA guys; they'd be best if they had a few days to get set up. Some of their defences might be temporarily effective.

And dude nobody cares because the galactic war is over and all that shit was destroyed. TA, not TA backstory novels of filth. :v. The idea a commander can build spaceships (the only way they're relevant) is completely speculative and I'd argue complete horseshit. But when people say 'I'm the voice of reason' they always mean the same thing.

I'm getting sick of hearing about galactic war reports, to be honest. There's no canon and they sound like the fluff rumblings of devs talking about their worldbuilding or ideas whether they made it, we're cut, make no sense, or whatever. If there's no connection to the game, why should anyone accept it?

Oh right - because you're so fair and balanced and aren't wanking TA at all.

[Iracundus]

It's my understanding that necrons sometimes chill out in their tombs and ignore the inhabitants of a planet entirely. If they aren't already active it might take them some time to wind up a response. I think, however, the necrons will be pretty persistent in pursuit once they spot him. I'm not sure what'd be best for the TA guys; they'd be best if they had a few days to get set up. Some of their defences might be temporarily effective.

And dude nobody cares because the galactic war is over and all that shit was destroyed. TA, not TA backstory novels of filth. :v. The idea a commander can build spaceships (the only way they're relevant) is completely speculative and I'd argue complete horseshit. But when people say 'I'm the voice of reason' they always mean the same thing.

I'm getting sick of hearing about galactic war reports, to be honest. There's no canon and they sound like the fluff rumblings of devs talking about their worldbuilding or ideas whether they made it, we're cut, make no sense, or whatever. If there's no connection to the game, why should anyone accept it?

Oh right - because you're so fair and balanced and aren't wanking TA at all.

Correct. It sounds more like you have a personal gripe with TA that is showing through with your attempts at ad hominem and at arbitrarily dismissing anything related to TA that might show it in a somewhat more competitive light. I have never for one moment claimed TA would rule all, but certainly they are not the strawmen pushovers you seem to portray them as.

The Galactic War reports are canon in as much as anything TA can be canon. They were done by Cavedog, and were officially released alongside some actual TA units which did make it ingame. The timing of the details also places those Galactic War reports AFTER the main games. There are spaceships featured in those reports, and hence therefore there are also spaceships in the TA universe. Units released as part of the Galactic Wars service, such as the Arm FARK and Core Necro and Immolator, all occurred in the context of the events of the Galactic Wars. Those units were accepted as official canonical game units and hence the events around their release are also canonical. There IS therefore a connection to the game and they cannot simply be arbitrarily dismissed simply because you personally don't like them.

To have any comparison, evidence needs to be looked at to reach theories and conclusions. It is not permissible to simply arbitrarily dismiss any evidence that disagrees with your preconceived conclusion. That is trying to doctor the evidence.

It is no different from GW releasing things and accounts of events during a campaign such as the 13th Black Crusade. Whether you like it or not, it still becomes official because GW owns the IP for 40K just as much as Cavedog owned the IP for TA. The releases done by the official holder of the IP are canon.

It also seems you are confused about what is actually meant by the Galactic War reports since you seem to confuse them with backstory. These were actual releases on part of the Cavedog online service that featured an ongoing campaign called "Galactic Wars." These are not "developer notes" or fan fiction by third party writers, but actual direct Cavedog released text.

[Stark]

Sounds like you're a butthurt Internet psychologist and extremely amusing. Doesn't make any of that more relevant. And man CANON AS ANYTHING LOL. Just fuck off: there are no spaceships in this scenario and if there were theres basically no information. Indeed, the lack of ships probably suggests a good benchmark for the limit of nano manufacturing, not that cretinous wankers would even want to think abut that when there's ludicrous nuclear big Bertha claims to make.

I don't remember but didn't the ocean airfields have some of the regular planes? The seaplanes were crap but some of the bombers might at least be able to keep out of the way of ground fire. Oh wait they're orbit capable, just like on space battles. All TA wankers are the same.

[Iracundus]

Sounds like you're a butthurt Internet psychologist and extremely amusing. Doesn't make any of that more relevant. And man CANON AS ANYTHING LOL. Just fuck off: there are no spaceships in this scenario and if there were theres basically no information. Indeed, the lack of ships probably suggests a good benchmark for the limit of nano manufacturing, not that cretinous wankers would even want to think abut that when there's ludicrous nuclear big Bertha claims to make.

I don't remember but didn't the ocean airfields have some of the regular planes? The seaplanes were crap but some of the bombers might at least be able to keep out of the way of ground fire. Oh wait they're orbit capable, just like on space battles. All TA wankers are the same.

Sounds like someone is waxing hyperbolic. You might want to wipe some of the froth from your mouth. I don't know what you have against TA but it is pretty clear you are not even attempting to engage in this thread in a rational manner.

You might want to read upwards for how spaceships started being invoked. It was actually by people bringing in 40K's space assets into the picture whereas previously none was mentioned. If 40K's space assets are fair game to involve, why not TA's space assets?

Also if you had actually taken the time to read what was written and also to actually look at the game, what was said was that TA's planes are vacuum capable as can be evidenced by their ability to fly on maps where there is no atmosphere. That is not something that can be said for 40K's aerospace planes like the Thunderbolt, which are still ultimately reliant on a conventional jet engine, and hence atmosphere. This is also supported by Forge World's publications on the Thunderbolt.

Examining the relative capabilities of both universes and pointing out the flaws or benefits each has over the other is hardly "wanking" to one side or the other.

The only thing that has become apparent is your almost pathological rage in response to anything portraying TA in anything other than a denigrating pathetic light.

It's interesting how this thread has brought out both one hand a seemingly over the top TA fanboy and on the other side an equally over the top TA hater. The problem is both of you are letting your own personal biases dictate the evidence and are twisting or ignoring evidence which doesn't fit your preconceived notions of superiority or inferiority of one universe over another.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC the OP correctly the TA has just 1 commander no more, no less. So for TA space assets to come into play you must show that you can build them from that within a reasonble timeframe. where as only qualification for the WH40K side is that you start from an active tomb world, thus leaving it connected to the rest of the WH40k galaxy thus any imperial or necron fleet asset would FTL jump away.

in other words show us that TA space assets are relevant to the discussion, don't just say they are and leave it at that.

[Iracundus]

IIRC the OP correctly the TA has just 1 commander no more, no less. So for TA space assets to come into play you must show that you can build them from that within a reasonble timeframe. where as only qualification for the WH40K side is that you start from an active tomb world, thus leaving it connected to the rest of the WH40k galaxy thus any imperial or necron fleet asset would FTL jump away.

in other words show us that TA space assets are relevant to the discussion, don't just say they are and leave it at that.

The mention of the existence of TA space assets was to address the misconception that somehow the TA universe has no ability or conception of building spacecraft.

Also if I recall the original discussion was regarding a planetary conflict on a world. The invoking of off-world assets is expanding the scope of the conflict, and if that is being done, it is not an equal comparison to only expand one side's assets and not the other's. Also as mentioned, it takes time for ships to be notified and to travel. They are not instantaneous. If time is granted to one side to call for help, have help be approved, and then have the ships travel, then shouldn't equal time be granted to the other side?

Finally the time taken depends on which enemy is being fought. Necrons now no longer have FTL travel with their ships with the new Necron Codex. If that is the space asset reinforcement being awaited, that could be a considerable period indeed.

It is like in 40K having an Imperial Guard vs. Space Marine discussion, and then someone claiming space assets would nuke one side or the other all to glass. If the discussion is going to be about ground warfare such as seen in a typical game, or portrayed in fictional novels, then arbitrarily summoning one side and only one side's assets is not an equal expansion of the conflict.

Now before someone goes and says a Commander unit can't build a spaceship in the game, yes, that is true, but neither can you build a spaceship in any of the 40K games. Not even Battlefleet Gothic, which involves itself in space combat, deals really with ship construction. Are we then to assume that because no ships can be built in a 40K game, there can never be new 40K ships built? We are talking about a comparison of fictional game universes, and not always a strict literal representation of what can or cannot be accomplished by game rules. Otherwise we can start having the ludicrous situation of 40K models being able to outrun the range of their guns or other silliness being accepted as reasonable, or troops never ever firing into close combat since that is forbidden by game rules (despite this being a noted behavior in desperate situations in the background).

[Lord Revan]

while I admit random expansion of one side's assets is generally rather unfair, gamer has something of a history of making totally idiotic vs "arguments" based of little to no useble info (yes that includes a planetbound force somehow being a threat to spacefleets), so threads like these tend to less about good arguments and more about seeing how far will wank his favorite before he's forced to give up (hence WH40K spacefleets (as Imperium's standing policy for planets that can't taken with IG/SM spam is to nuke the site from orbit)).

basically since 1 side is not willing to play fairly we won't bother to do so either.

Gamer's dishonest debating methods are probably the reason why Stark seems so allergic to pro-TA arguments (though it could just that he's grumpy as a way of life I could never figure that one out).

oh and before someone cries "vendetta!", it's not vendetta when you show similar behaviour as you did in previous threads and I draw my conclutions from that.

[Iracundus]

while I admit random expansion of one side's assets is generally rather unfair, gamer has something of a history of making totally idiotic vs "arguments" based of little to no useble info (yes that includes a planetbound force somehow being a threat to spacefleets), so threads like these tend to less about good arguments and more about seeing how far will wank his favorite before he's forced to give up (hence WH40K spacefleets (as Imperium's standing policy for planets that can't taken with IG/SM spam is to nuke the site from orbit)).

basically since 1 side is not willing to play fairly we won't bother to do so either.

This thread is about a topic, not an individual. There are more posters than just gamer, and thus unilateral expansion of one side's assets on the basis of a personal dislike for one other individual is not a valid or fair basis on which to make comparisons between the actual material. Nor is simply arbitrarily dismissing one universe's canon. Yes there are some contradictions such as some inflated claims of firepower contradicted by other reports, but there are contradictions in 40K as well, which doesn't invalidate all of 40K's canon. For any comparison of fictional universes, there has to be some acceptance of the other side's canon, that their society or technology can function and do what it is portrayed as doing in their universe. There is no anti-grav in TA whereas it is reasonably common among certain 40K factions. There is no nanolathing of war machines in seconds or minutes in 40K but it is the basis for all construction in TA.

Also for the record, the Imperium's policy is to try again. Real estate in 40K is expensive whereas manpower is cheap. Exterminatus and orbital bombardment is only used when a planet is deemed forever beyond recovery such as when Chaos or Tyranids take over. Also in the 40K universe, according to Battlefleet Gothic, planetary defenses ARE a threat to spaceships as they pack greater firepower per unit cost than a 40K spaceship. The listed defensive installations on the Third War for Armageddon website for a typical hive city overpowers the typical Imperial cruiser in firepower.

[Lord Revan]

I'm perfectly willing to discuss the matter if you're willing to give me something to work with, remember "show, don't tell", if you can give some decent useble info on the matter sure I'm willing to work with that, granted if TA is anything like Warcraft or Starcraft there isn't any useble info (as we can't really which ones are useble and which ones aren't) in which case this thread should die out as "unable to say anything due to lack of data".

My problem as well as most of the people here is that gamer is telling us how TA is capable of this and that but he's not showing us and quite frankly I've not seen you do that much showing either.

[gamer]

while I admit random expansion of one side's assets is generally rather unfair, gamer has something of a history of making totally idiotic vs "arguments" based of little to no useble info (yes that includes a planetbound force somehow being a threat to spacefleets), so threads like these tend to less about good arguments and more about seeing how far will wank his favorite before he's forced to give up (hence WH40K spacefleets (as Imperium's standing policy for planets that can't taken with IG/SM spam is to nuke the site from orbit)).

basically since 1 side is not willing to play fairly we won't bother to do so either.

Gamer's dishonest debating methods are probably the reason why Stark seems so allergic to pro-TA arguments (though it could just that he's grumpy as a way of life I could never figure that one out).

oh and before someone cries "vendetta!", it's not vendetta when you show similar behaviour as you did in previous threads and I draw my conclutions from that.

The hell, you do realize in that thread with the various hive queens fighting no one was allowed to bring their space forces into the conflict, and how was it wank, and how am I being dishonest?

I'm just quoting what the fluff says about TA.

[Lord Revan]

you're not "just quoting" you're picking and choosing fluff to suit your needs, not mention extrapolating capabilities without evidence.

EDIT:I've said it before, but I must say it again it seems, show, don't tell. want us to accept your argument then give us something to work with don't just give us peice fluff that may or may not say what you think it says, prove it says what it you think it says and prove that's the best logical conclution, do not assume anything.

[gamer]

you're not "just quoting" you're picking and choosing fluff to suit your needs, not mention extrapolating capabilities without evidence.

How am I cherry picking the fluff?

[gamer]

you're not "just quoting" you're picking and choosing fluff to suit your needs, not mention extrapolating capabilities without evidence.

EDIT:I've said it before, but I must say it again it seems, show, don't tell. want us to accept your argument then give us something to work with don't just give us peice fluff that may or may not say what you think it says, prove it says what it you think it says and prove that's the best logical conclution, do not assume anything.

How am I not showing info, I even provided quotes for the things I say, its not like anyone else is even providing a quote on anything.

Okay here's a few links to the reports, I could provide more.

Coldfire's troops pressed their final charge, overwhelming the last of Gnug's battered and surprised troops, driving them into the ground with gigatons worth of explosive power.
firepower

The warm orange glow of the engine burst into new life as the drive kicked into high gear. Five enormous Arm Pioneer-class Colony ships broke formation and rocketed off in different directions...

With the Arm civilization split up and on the run, the Core has been busily scanning deep space for signs of the Colony ships fleeing Empyrrean.
some mentioning of starships massive ones too.

[NecronLord]

(I don't think the neurons have any attack subs :v)

Tomb ships can survive on the depths of the ocean, and rise to fight (Dark Apostle books) after millions of years of same, and necron structures can survive in the same environment. (Same), necrons are capable of erecting large underwater bubbles around some more vulnerable structures (Deathwatch adventure The Emperor Protects).

Worst case scenario, the necrons just send a ship into the ocean and land it on top of him.

What's the ARM Commander's crush-depth?

[NecronLord]

Stark: Scarabs in current game terms don't have rules for messing with machines, nor have I seen that in the fluff for a while. They are ludicrously good at eating tanks in game though, and their rules are written to represent this. There are said to be many versions, though, so the tank-futzing ones might be out there somewhere still.

Sorry, I haven't read anything about them since they came out and had a 12" nothing works on 6+ (or something). That would have been a lol in a TA vs. :V Did they change the necrons to be less imba later on? I remember scarabs basically deciding battles in early reports.

Yeah, they did. Now they corrode (somehow) metal they come into contact and eat it. They're also Von Neumann machines, though this isn't represented on tabletop.

But like I said, there's no reason to think the other type don't exist somewhere.

[Lord Revan]

SHOW not TELL!

You must evidence if your own words and prove that you've not misinterpited the source, it's not that bloody hard to figure out.

It's not my task to wade thru the links for proof for your claim, it's your task to find evidence for your claim, I don't have do your job for you, nor will I

futhermore, if the fluff has internal conflicts (not all that uncommon) which piece shall we defer then, this is why a set canon hierarchy is so important in these cases, if books say 1 thing and ingame cutscenes another, which one is right?

this to gamer in case it's not clear.

[gamer]

SHOW not TELL!

You must evidence if your own words and prove that you've not misinterpited the source, it's not that bloody hard to figure out.

It's not my task to wade thru the links for proof for your claim, it's your task to find evidence for your claim, I don't have do your job for you, nor will I

futhermore, if the fluff has internal conflicts (not all that uncommon) which piece shall we defer then, this is why a set canon hierarchy is so important in these cases, if books say 1 thing and ingame cutscenes another, which one is right?

this to gamer in case it's not clear.

Show not tell, okay simple.

I have provided a link to the source so you can look at it yourself really what am I supposed to do? If I say the source says gigatons, genius soldiers, giant spaceships, and planet cracking weapons and if the source that I provided for you confirms this, problem solved right? Earlier I provided small excerpts from the text now this is the actual source.

If you want the manual I can find that too. The manual describes their ability to focus explosions to a microscopic point and things like that.

And no there isn't an official canon hierarchy that I know of but the Galactic War reports and news reports are canon Cavedog material.

[Lord Revan]

read and anilyze the sources then write down the conclution in your own words (this is important), then comfirm your findings so that they match as much of the evidence as possible(this is also important), then make sure you've not misinterrpited the sources (another thing that's important), then prove your conclutions is either the only possible or at least the best one.

once you've done this you should have a lowerlimit(aka it must able to do at least this) and an upperlimit(it can't do this or above).

now you have numbers you can use, but be warned these numbers are only as good as the sources they come from. Also while gamemechanics (aka stuff like hit points and such) are considered a poor source (sometimes how ever they're the only source avaible), gamecutscenes are not a poor source and unless the canon hierarchy says otherwise have just as much value as books and manuals.

a canon hierarchy is a good way to say which is the "true" version of the verse and what is changed to fit needs of the medium.