Purple wrote:I know the universe is all about jamming. But do we really need to bring it into this? As there is a much simpler explanation for what we see in that video. First, it's clear that the operator is an idiot*. Instead of trying to lead the target by anticipating where it will be (not that difficult since it is just moving backward and the missile is coming down in an arc) he is trying to keep the cross hairs on the mecha the whole time. As evidenced by the fact that when ever we see the cross hair jerk back it jerks back onto the mecha and not behind it. The effect this has is that he keeps having to correct. As for why we see jerking and not a steady flow of the cross hair veering off that might be due to a bad camera frame rate. Althou if what you said about M particles is true than that might be due to them. Or it might be due to shitty guidance equipment. Either way thou, my explanation for the way we see the missile acting would be a combination of crappy aim (no leading) and low frame rate camera feedback.
This has already been addressed by Stark:
The crews had a two week training course.
So combined with the jamming and the less than optomized equipment, we also get troops that are being rush trained to fight using new technology. All in all, a messy way to fight.
Ships work fine against mobile suits, in open space at least, so long as there's enough guns and missiles putting enough fire at where you think they are.
This is the case. By as early as UC0083 the Feddies had managed to scale down effective shielding to missiles, and in the mid-UC stuff guided missiles are fairly common, but in the One Year War it was just technologically unfeasible to properly shield guided missiles.
In a heavy minovsky environment however their general effectiveness will probably still go to shit. I don't really recall a whole lot of guidedness from most of the missiles in various space battles. We don't see lot of anti-MS missile fire but we do still see gun turrets all over the place. But this probably isn't very useful for discussing the Federal Issued TOW Launchers from 0079.
Jub wrote:This has already been addressed by Stark:
Everyone else basically ignored it thou. And besides, there is no excuse for not leading your target if you have ever fired a weapon before, heard of a weapon before or even plaid a video game.
So combined with the jamming and the less than optomized equipment, we also get troops that are being rush trained to fight using new technology. All in all, a messy way to fight.
Indeed. I just wanted to underline that point thou since you people took the video and ran with it producing an elaborate theory to explain it when a simple one would do.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Jub wrote:This has already been addressed by Stark:
Everyone else basically ignored it thou. And besides, there is no excuse for not leading your target if you have ever fired a weapon before, heard of a weapon before or even plaid a video game.
So combined with the jamming and the less than optomized equipment, we also get troops that are being rush trained to fight using new technology. All in all, a messy way to fight.
Indeed. I just wanted to underline that point thou since you people took the video and ran with it producing an elaborate theory to explain it when a simple one would do.
Except that you're ignoring the fact that this video is but one of many examples of this jamming effect. If we were only debating based on this one clip you might have a point.
I think we can safely ignore anyone who doesn't beleive jamming/interference is relevant to Gundam.
I'll make a longer video with the background to the missile and the firing unit and approach they use; I'm interested in what the milhard guys have to say about it, particularly of they can speculate on what kind of command system is used to determine where the bad control signals were coming from.
Jub wrote:This has already been addressed by Stark:
Everyone else basically ignored it thou. And besides, there is no excuse for not leading your target if you have ever fired a weapon before, heard of a weapon before or even plaid a video game.
So combined with the jamming and the less than optomized equipment, we also get troops that are being rush trained to fight using new technology. All in all, a messy way to fight.
Indeed. I just wanted to underline that point thou since you people took the video and ran with it producing an elaborate theory to explain it when a simple one would do.
Except that you're ignoring the fact that this video is but one of many examples of this jamming effect. If we were only debating based on this one clip you might have a point.
All I am saying is that as far as examples go this video might not be the best one. That's all.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Purple wrote:Everyone else basically ignored it thou. And besides, there is no excuse for not leading your target if you have ever fired a weapon before, heard of a weapon before or even plaid a video game.
Man, the Zaku dodges the last missile like it's fucking Neo. It might just be a pretty difficult target :v
Stark wrote:Yeah, but that's the rationale as to why self-guided missiles aren't used (and why psychics are perverted into guidance systems). That's why milhard wankers hate it.
First time I read tis I thought, 'WTF that sounds like the Imperium. Machine spirit FTW!' On a more serious tone, I can't say it surprises me. If there are a few good rationalizations for 'all around jamming' - Magic/psychic stuff is probably a good one (at least one that can be selective enough.)
I also wasn't surprised to find the psycommu stuff that it was tied to minovsky particles too. Makes a sort of sense.
Commander 598 wrote:Honestly I'd say Minovsky really has less of an effect on things than people say. Missiles and sensors might have gone to shit but those machines are monsters regardless.
Another possibility - given that a number of parameters (like range) seem to change over time, is that its simply taken the Gundam Universe some time to completely work through all the implications of Minovsky stuff. Such delays may have even engendered a sort of cultural/militiary inertia that kept things 'the way they ought to be'. Military stagnation (from a tactical or technological standpoint) is hardly rare in sci fi (Look at the Honorverse. You can't disregard the human factor in these things even if the 'practical' side is eaisly dealt with.)
Okay, since people are getting confused, here's the facts about the "jamming" in Gundam. Most of this is stuff I got conversing with Mark Simmons (the guy who does the English-language translations of the Gundam technical manuals) before the old Gundam sites went belly up.
And also, a lot of what Stark said is just outright wrong, especially with regards to the "jamming" effect on electronics.
Minovsky Particles
The central premise of Gundam is that they discovered this special particle called the "Minovsky" particle, which is essentially a by-product of a fusion reaction. This special particle has the following properties:
1) M-particles block radio waves and some IR transmissions. Due to funky physics M-particles form a lattice called an I-field, which basically blocks over-the-air radio and IR. It does NOT block wire electronics, which is why dipping your iPod in an area swimming with M-particles will have no effect at all (M-particles only affect physical objectes once fused into a "mega particle"... see below).
2) M-particles are persistent. When you spread M-particles in an area (by simply "leaking" some of it from a fusion reactor), it stays in that area for a long, long time. Eventually, the entire Earth Sphere (the Earth + surround colonies) are literally drowning in M-particles which makes virtually all radio transmissions impossible.
3) The M-particle also has some funky rules which allow it to be made into both an offensive weapon (the "mega particle" beam, which is essentially a stream of M-particles that can cut through all conventional armor), and a defensive weapon (I-fields, when created with sufficient power, can block the mega particle beam).
=======
So what conventional militaries experience in Gundam is more than just simple jamming of their weapons systems. They experience a total communications black out. Which is something that guys like Sea Skimmer would be very, very worried about.
What this means is that the different elements of an army can no longer talk with each other. The infantry can't talk to the artillery to call down fire support anymore. Tanks cannot talk to airplanes to direct close air support. Conventional armies must revert back to using telephones and runners.
The only reliable means of long-ranged communication in Gundam is some kind of "laser" communication, but this is strictly limited to Line of Sight only. If you're an infantry company and your supporting artillery battalion is hiding in a ridge behind you, you can't talk to them.
In this environment, the Mobile Suits excel because of the following reasons:
1) A Mobile Suit concentrates the firepower of an entire tank company under the command of one person. A regular tank company commander needs to talk to his 14-15 tank commanders over the radio to direct their fire. A Mobile Suit pilot can just decide targets on his own and pick them off using his 120mm machine gun.
Now, obviously, a Mobile Suit doesn't have the staying power of a tank company, but with the communications blackout it is much more difficult for a tank company or an infantry battalion to concentrate its firepower at it.
2) You only need a small number of Mobile Suits to present a credible fighting force. Most Zeon bases in North America for instance only have a garrison of 2-4 Mobile Suits, but this already represents having the firepower of an entire tank battalion. And again, coordinating 2-4 pilots instead of 1,000 guys is much easier in a radioless environment.
3) Because Mobile Suits are tall and tower over the terrain, they actually have an easier time maintaining contact via the aforementioned laser communications system
So, far from simply being a "jamming" system, M-particles represents a total and constant communications black out over the whole planet. It would be like the US Army being forced to give up GPS, radios, and all of its high-tech command and control equipment in favor of going back to World War 1 telephones and runners.
======
Next, let's talk about Mobile Suit agility, because Gundam also has some funky special rules about them (which also screws over wire-guideds).
The AMBAC system.
To make a 30-ton space fighter more maneuverable, you give it a better engine and more maneuvering thrusters (verniers in Gundam parlance). Add enough thrusters, and you get something like the Viper from Battlestar Galactica, which can do "viffs" and other nifty moves.
Logically though, if you add arms and legs to a space fighter (which increases its weight to 50 tons), it should actually be LESS maneuverable than your standard space fighter. After all, more mass = more energy needed to maneuver.
But thanks to the AMBAC system, the complete opposite is true in Gundam.
According to Gundam lore, thanks to the AMBAC system, a humanoid-shaped fighter is actually capable of perfoming maneuvers without using any maneuvering thrusters, by simply "shifting its center of mass". Whether or not this is actually possible, I don't know for sure (I would lean towards "no").
But what this means is that a 50-ton Zaku II (shown in the vid) will actually out-maneuver a 30-ton conventional space fighter with equivalent engines! In fact, the Gundam Mobile Suits were designed primarily to be space fighters. Their first major success was in fact the annihilation of 200+ Federation space battleships during the opening week of the war, who were about as helpless as wet-navy battleships against dedicated torpedo bombers.
Gundam technical writers even go as far and say that the Mobile Suits initially had a mixed performance on the ground. Despite the advantages I outlined above, they did actually suffer pretty heavy losses against conventional forces. This eventually led to the development of specialist ground combat Mobile Suits.
A Zaku II (which is again primarily a space fighter) can "run" at a speed of around 60 kph, or slightly faster than an MBT. A late war MS-09 Dom Mobile Suit however, which uses hover technogy - can travel at speeds of over 300 kph, which is about as fast as jet fighters and hence renders wired-guideds useless against them.
And for a 70s cartoon show, they actually did adhere to this canon to a fair degree. The last major ground battle involving "conventional" forces (tanks, artillery, airpower) was the Battle of Odessa, where the Federation's conventional forces defeated Zeon's Mobile Suit forces. However, this "last hurrah" of the tanks was thanks to a number of factors, namely:
1) Zeon's Mobile Suit forces were still mainly using the old Zaku IIs, which were also fighting from fixed positions rather than a mobile battle.
2) With Zeon forced to fight from fixed positions, the Federation's artillery and air forces were able to attack using a pre-arranged fire plan, which basically buried the big mechs under mountains of shells and bombs.
Jub wrote:So combined with the jamming and the less than optomized equipment, we also get troops that are being rush trained to fight using new technology. All in all, a messy way to fight.
The point is that Stark is wrong about the jamming part, period. Canon says M-particles don't affect anything except radio waves and IR until they're made into mega-particles, and what he thinks is "jamming" in the video is actually explainable by other problems with wire-guided tech (Lag, Controller, Training, Camera Problem, Etc).
In fact, if you watch other Gundam shows you'll see that the view from a Mobile Suit cockpit is usually crystal clear without any static / jamming interference. M-particles simply do not have that effect.
The real problem why wire-guided tech becomes rapidly obsolete is because people eventually start fielding Mobile Suits which can hit 300 kph on the ground, as opposed to the "mere" 60 kph that could be achieved by the Zaku in that video (in space, wire-guided were never used. Mobile Suits are too agile there).
It's not just a jamming problem. It's that the Mobile Suits become really fast and really agile; even without adding more thrusters/verniers thanks to AMBAC magic.
Plus what Skimmer said about how Gundam engineers can't design an autonomous missile (i.e. a Javelin) that can tell the difference between a Dummy Balloon and a real Mobile Suit based on optical readouts (Gundam handwaves this by saying the Dummy Balloons have their own special tech to make them look more real to the optic sensors).
Connor MacLeod wrote:Another possibility - given that a number of parameters (like range) seem to change over time, is that its simply taken the Gundam Universe some time to completely work through all the implications of Minovsky stuff. Such delays may have even engendered a sort of cultural/militiary inertia that kept things 'the way they ought to be'. Military stagnation (from a tactical or technological standpoint) is hardly rare in sci fi (Look at the Honorverse. You can't disregard the human factor in these things even if the 'practical' side is eaisly dealt with.)
This is certainly true, especially with respect to the Federation space battleship force. They were caught completely by surprise early in the war, resulting in the loss of something like 200 battleships and cruisers despite Zeon (the Mobile Suit guys) being outnumbered 3:1. Only after this disaster did the Federation start rushing the development of its own Mobile Suits.
Yet after the war... they didn't learn their lesson, built another 200+ battleships and cruisers, most of which were sunk in a "terrorist attack" by a single Mobile Suit during a naval parade :/
It was only after the second disaster did the Federation admiralty finally accept the new rule of warfare: Space battleships are useless against Mobile Suits. From now on they are to serve strictly as carriers for Mobile Suits or as long-ranged fire support only.
(That being said, even the early Federation space battleships already have Minovksy reactors and beam weapons - because Dr. Minovsky defected to the Federation before the war. So while the Federation had an idea of the bad effects of M-particles, they were certainly surprised by the M-particle + Mobile Suit combo)
Zinegata wrote:It does NOT block wire electronics, which is why dipping your iPod in an area swimming with M-particles will have no effect at all (M-particles only affect physical objectes once fused into a "mega particle"... see below).
Zinegata wrote:It does NOT block wire electronics, which is why dipping your iPod in an area swimming with M-particles will have no effect at all (M-particles only affect physical objectes once fused into a "mega particle"... see below).
The most vital electronic weapon of both the Zeon and Federation forces. This is a tiny particle with a powerful electrical charge, discovered by Minovsky, a Zeon of White Russian descent. When different types of Minovsky particles are dispersed, they have the effect of reflecting and absorbing electromagnetic waves over a wide area. In relation to mobile suit operations, they were used in the fighting within the Earth and moon system that took place during the Battle of Loum.
Massive use of nuclear weapons during the Three Day Battle and the Battle of Loum released large quantities of plasma into space in satellite orbit. The combination of this plasma and the Minovsky effect has made it impossible to use radar and wireless communications over long distances.
At present, laser communication is normally used for long-distance transmissions. Of course, communication (including TV images) is still possible at extremely short ranges of ten kilometers or so, but overall conditions are close to those in effect at the beginning of World War II.
And I'm at least glad that they tried to (finally!) handwave the PGM issue we used to discuss back in the late 90s with the new definition .
Ford Prefect wrote:Dude it's been like that for literally as long as I remember, which is like ten years. It's not 'new' at all.
Like I said I'm an old fogey of the Gundam Project days (from the glorious 90s ), from the time when there wasn't an official website yet. And our translations definitely made no mention of the need for EM Shielding. See here courtesy of the wayback machine from 2000:
The Minovsky particle has near-zero rest mass - though, like any particle, its mass increases to reflect its potential or kinetic energy - and can carry either a positive or negative electrical charge. When scattered in open space or in the air, the repulsive forces between charged Minovsky particles cause them to spontaneously align into a regular lattice structure called an I-field. The I-field creates an interference effect, called the Minovsky effect, that blocks low-frequency electromagnetic waves such as radio and microwave transmissions - even infrared radiation is affected, though not blocked entirely. The I-field itself is invisible, and can be detected only by its effects.
And like I said - it's only radio and IR that's affected in the old manuals.
Gundam Officials came out around 2005ish so maybe that's when they added the revision.
Last edited by Zinegata on 2012-09-05 01:20am, edited 1 time in total.
Stark wrote:Saying it affects EM radiation doesn't mean it exclusively affects EM radiation.
The old material makes no mention of it affecting any circuitry like the new ones (like I said, the whole bit with Precision Guided Munitions is totally new compared to the older manuals).
And again if you look at the older series (the actual shows) there is absolutely no hint that any circuitry disruption is happening. For instance:
We get an inside-the-cockpit view of several pilots in this scene (at 0:20 in particular), yet there's no static or disruption of their panoramic displays. This is consistently applied in all of the old UC shows.
But it's all a moot point; current canon definition now includes circuitry as canon marches on. Which isn't an entirely bad revision (although some scenes from 08th MS make even less sense now). Certainly better than the current attempts to pretend Zeon are the good guys.
Admittedly my lack of knowledge on the subject makes it hard for me to follow, but it sounds to me like you're trying to say the older material has more validity and its utterly impossible for more recent material to change things or say something else or expand on the issue at all.... even though it seems precisely that has happened (because I've noted as well various sources specifically pointing to the 'affects EM radiation AND electrical equipment' as well.)
Hell there's probably a chance it affects optical shit as well, since we're talking EM radiation (and otherwise there's a whole 'well why aren't they using optical' loophole to cause arguments and complaints over.)
If it makes no mention of it, it can't have said it doesn't do it. There is no conflict, and tbh I've never read either source and this is the clear implication of the shows themselves.
And yeah like Connor says, stuff being expanded on without contradiction happens all over scifi, and the Japanese don't give two shits about continuity or canon anyway.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Admittedly my lack of knowledge on the subject makes it hard for me to follow, but it sounds to me like you're trying to say the older material has more validity
No, I'm saying an old fogey and my data is from the older materials; which is why I conceded a couple of posts ago. I'm just explaining my error.
Ford's link is the official canon now, which supercedes what I said with regards to what the M-particles affect.
Good. Does that mean the yelling can end and we could maybe start discussing interesting stuff again? I hope so.
I've actually been browisng the wiki (well at least the technical side of it, since I'm curious just to see all of what they have insofar as mech and mech designs go) I actually had to blink at the dolphin navigation, admittedly, but there's actually alot of interesting, interally consistent stuff there. Gundam seems to like to do that same blend of 'hard sci fi' elements with 'soft/space operaish' elements too, not unlike the Revelation space novels, actually.
I also stumbled across the 'N-Jammer' stuff (and the counterjammers and like) How does that actually fit into things re: minovsky particles and such? (I mean, it makes sense that the N-Jammers are meant to serve a similar role as the minovsky stuff story wise, I'm just wondering how they relate in-universe)
Connor MacLeod wrote:I've actually been browisng the wiki (well at least the technical side of it, since I'm curious just to see all of what they have insofar as mech and mech designs go) I actually had to blink at the dolphin navigation, admittedly, but there's actually alot of interesting, interally consistent stuff there. Gundam seems to like to do that same blend of 'hard sci fi' elements with 'soft/space operaish' elements too, not unlike the Revelation space novels, actually.
I also stumbled across the 'N-Jammer' stuff (and the counterjammers and like) How does that actually fit into things re: minovsky particles and such? (I mean, it makes sense that the N-Jammers are meant to serve a similar role as the minovsky stuff story wise, I'm just wondering how they relate in-universe)
Uh, you may want to take a few things in mind when you browse the wiki.
There are actually several "alternate" universes in the Gundam lore. Minovsky Particles and N-jammers do not belong to the same universe.
The most prominent (and military self-consistent) universe is the "Universal Century" universe, which is the setting for most of the series, including the original one. It is also the only universe with Minovsky particles.
"N-jammers" belong to the "Gundam SEED" universe, which is meant to be a reboot of the UC universe but with flashier graphics and more teen angst.
I think Dolphin Navigation is with the Gundam X continuity, which is seperate from both UC and Gundam SEED.
While some of the data is outdated, you may want to look at the Gundam Project link (via wayback machine) from above. It covers how UC combat / science works in broad strokes quite well, without mentioning / confusing stuff from other universes.
Zinegata wrote:
So what conventional militaries experience in Gundam is more than just simple jamming of their weapons systems. They experience a total communications black out. Which is something that guys like Sea Skimmer would be very, very worried about.
What this means is that the different elements of an army can no longer talk with each other. The infantry can't talk to the artillery to call down fire support anymore. Tanks cannot talk to airplanes to direct close air support. Conventional armies must revert back to using telephones and runners.
They wouldn't be reverting back. Land lines and runners are still very much used in conjunction with radio equipment to deliver messages and most of the really important stuff like orders and such are still delivered in physical format.
Zinegata wrote:
The only reliable means of long-ranged communication in Gundam is some kind of "laser" communication, but this is strictly limited to Line of Sight only. If you're an infantry company and your supporting artillery battalion is hiding in a ridge behind you, you can't talk to them.
Put a laser emitter on the ridge or run a cable to them. This just means the artillery has to follow pretty close to the infantry to be able to support them or they have to rely on predetermined targets and on call fire support would be harder to coordinate effectively.
Zinegata wrote:
In this environment, the Mobile Suits excel because of the following reasons:
1) A Mobile Suit concentrates the firepower of an entire tank company under the command of one person. A regular tank company commander needs to talk to his 14-15 tank commanders over the radio to direct their fire. A Mobile Suit pilot can just decide targets on his own and pick them off using his 120mm machine gun.
No he doesn't really. The company commander just lays out the battle plan and leaves it to the individual tank squads to follow through it. A tank can carry LOS communication gear on it and maintain communication with his buddies in the same squad which is a key part of tank operation on the tactical level. Barring that the individual tank commander will just prioritize the targets in accordance to what he sees.
Zinegata wrote:
Now, obviously, a Mobile Suit doesn't have the staying power of a tank company, but with the communications blackout it is much more difficult for a tank company or an infantry battalion to concentrate its firepower at it.
Comm blackout simply forces the iniative to a lower level and individual company commanders and squad leaders have to make the decisions on how to fight. Infantry battalions would be dispersed to companies anyway when the fight starts and coordinating fire between individual companies is easy even without radios and again the big point is to coordinate fire within the company.
Zinegata wrote:
2) You only need a small number of Mobile Suits to present a credible fighting force. Most Zeon bases in North America for instance only have a garrison of 2-4 Mobile Suits, but this already represents having the firepower of an entire tank battalion. And again, coordinating 2-4 pilots instead of 1,000 guys is much easier in a radioless environment.
Coordinating large groups by low tech means is easier than maintaining tactical coordination with same. To fight effectively with just 2-4 guys, tactical communication is essential since you cannot be everywhere at the same time. The other thing is you cannot take losses. Losing 1 out of 4 is a severe blow to your group while losing 100 out of a 1000 is a loss but the group can still be considered combat effective.
Zinegata wrote:
3) Because Mobile Suits are tall and tower over the terrain, they actually have an easier time maintaining contact via the aforementioned laser communications system
Which does little to negate the fact that your force is still fighting in a tightly packed group and it has serious issues if the need is to disperse the force into multiple directions.
Zinegata wrote:
So, far from simply being a "jamming" system, M-particles represents a total and constant communications black out over the whole planet. It would be like the US Army being forced to give up GPS, radios, and all of its high-tech command and control equipment in favor of going back to World War 1 telephones and runners.
Which as I pointed out, never really went away. It would be a major inconvenience but since all are affected about the same, it just means you'd face a huge reorganization and maintaining tactical tempo would become much harder.
-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives
I think that's kind of the point. Without modern-ish communications you're thrown back to slower, more hamhanded tactics. Especially on the offensive; you can set up laser transponders and landlines in good positions to cover your own rear area, but you can't set them in enemy territory to coordinate when you're attacking.
It still works- it just puts you closer to World War One combat conditions than real life conditions.
And if someone can step in with fast, extremely powerful armored vehicles that concentrate a tank company's firepower into a small chassis, this makes them a lot more dangerous than they would be in real life. Because as you note, without communications the individual tank commanders are working just on what they see, and unless you form them up into phalanxes they don't all see the same enemy at the same time. If that one enemy can easily overpower any one or two of the tanks, then you have a problem because you're asking to be defeated in detail.
Picture what would happen to a bunch of WWII Sherman tanks without radios fighting a single T-54. The T-54's advantage in firepower and survivability would let it take on any one of the Shermans pretty easily. And coordinating tightly enough to allow many of the Shermans shots into the T-54's flanks or rear would be hard without communications.
.