Avengers out on DVD

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Re: Avengers out on DVD

Post by Kojiro »

Ted C wrote:The Chitauri obviously had not prepared for a weapon to be launched through the portal at them, at least not that early in the conflict. A glaring oversight, perhaps, but it seems that Loki is their only real source of intelligence about the Earth, and he has lead them to believe that it will be a pushover.
I think this. Prior to actually coming here and talking to Hawkeye, Loki's last trip here was a brief chat with Thor in a room and some relayed experience through the destroyer. From Loki's perspective Earth should be a walkover- he probably thinks we're not much more dangerous than we were back in 965 AD when Asguard last showed up. Honestly outside of select few we are a laughable joke compared to Asguardians- even Volstagg can take a blast from the Destroyer. To him (and presumably most Asguardians) guns seem as little a problem as the swords they had back then. Looking at it now it really seems like their intel on us was way, way out of date. That could be a flaw in being so long lived though- I imagine Asguard hasn't significantly advanced in thousands of years.

I think where it really goes wrong is Black Widow and Hawkeye. Just one scene where Widow's bullets didn't penetrate Chitauri armour or something to say that these guys are dangerous- we need someone/thing more than just the military- would have added a significant amount of threat to the Chitauri.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Um-last I checked on the Earth side the wormhole had no gravity enough to notice?
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Batman wrote:Um-last I checked on the Earth side the wormhole had no gravity enough to notice?
Would we notice if it did? The effect might be very short ranged- say, a 1g field pointing "up," enough to cancel out Earth's gravity right around the wormhole, out to a fairly limited radius. Given how high in the sky it is, we might not spot that.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Kojiro wrote:
Ted C wrote:The Chitauri obviously had not prepared for a weapon to be launched through the portal at them, at least not that early in the conflict. A glaring oversight, perhaps, but it seems that Loki is their only real source of intelligence about the Earth, and he has lead them to believe that it will be a pushover.
I think this. Prior to actually coming here and talking to Hawkeye, Loki's last trip here was a brief chat with Thor in a room and some relayed experience through the destroyer. From Loki's perspective Earth should be a walkover- he probably thinks we're not much more dangerous than we were back in 965 AD when Asguard last showed up. Honestly outside of select few we are a laughable joke compared to Asguardians- even Volstagg can take a blast from the Destroyer. To him (and presumably most Asguardians) guns seem as little a problem as the swords they had back then. Looking at it now it really seems like their intel on us was way, way out of date. That could be a flaw in being so long lived though- I imagine Asguard hasn't significantly advanced in thousands of years.

I think where it really goes wrong is Black Widow and Hawkeye. Just one scene where Widow's bullets didn't penetrate Chitauri armour or something to say that these guys are dangerous- we need someone/thing more than just the military- would have added a significant amount of threat to the Chitauri.
Did Volstag really? All I remember is seeing him survive the Destroyer blasting the building he was in. There is no indication that he directly took the blast and survived.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Replicant wrote:Did Volstag really? All I remember is seeing him survive the Destroyer blasting the building he was in. There is no indication that he directly took the blast and survived.
We get a POV shot from from Volstagg with the Destroyer looking right at him, which is coincidentally also how it shoots. He was a stationary target so it's not beyond reason to believe he was directly hit. Then again, possibly at Loki's direction it missed him as it missed Sif because Loki doesn't want them dead. It doesn't seem to have any trouble targeting Thor or frost giants however. But if you didn't want to seriously wound him, why shoot in the first place?

Given we see Loki take a blast point blank from the derived weapon (almost certainly inferior I know) and physically pushed through a bulkhead (a bulkhead surrounding the Hulk cell) and shrugging it off it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe a battle armoured Volstagg might be durable enough to survive a blast from the Destroyer. I mean his (considerable amount) of hair isn't even singed despite being in that fireball, nor does his armour show any damage, which I suppose you could take as evidence he wasn't hit too.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Kojiro wrote:
Replicant wrote:Did Volstag really? All I remember is seeing him survive the Destroyer blasting the building he was in. There is no indication that he directly took the blast and survived.
We get a POV shot from from Volstagg with the Destroyer looking right at him, which is coincidentally also how it shoots. He was a stationary target so it's not beyond reason to believe he was directly hit. Then again, possibly at Loki's direction it missed him as it missed Sif because Loki doesn't want them dead. It doesn't seem to have any trouble targeting Thor or frost giants however. But if you didn't want to seriously wound him, why shoot in the first place?

Given we see Loki take a blast point blank from the derived weapon (almost certainly inferior I know) and physically pushed through a bulkhead (a bulkhead surrounding the Hulk cell) and shrugging it off it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe a battle armoured Volstagg might be durable enough to survive a blast from the Destroyer. I mean his (considerable amount) of hair isn't even singed despite being in that fireball, nor does his armour show any damage, which I suppose you could take as evidence he wasn't hit too.
The touch of a Frost Giant cold burned him so I doubt he is so durable that he can take a blast from the Destroyer and not even have his hair messed up.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Well he was in that building, got sent flying and at least temporarily set on fire, but seems to have gone out by the time he hits the wall across the street. The beam gouges holes in roads and sends cars flying but it's clearly not the disintegration beam of the comics.

Either way Asguardians are ludicrously tough compared to us and it wouldn't be unheard of for a crazy, power mad 'god' to underestimate what he'd need to conquer us.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Since the edit wouldn't go through... Regarding the frost giant touch, we have no way whatsoever to know how that works, other than it clearly doesn't work on other frost giants. For all we know it's pure, outright magic. On what basis do you assume 'vulnerable to frost giant --> can't possibly survive the Destroyer'?
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Thor survived a direct blast from Odin's spear (Gungnir) when Loki was wielding it, and the Destroyer's beams certainly seem similar to the spear's blasts. Of course, Thor is far tougher than even a typical Asgardian, and Loki may have only intended to delay him at that point, so it's still not clear whether an Asgardian could expect to survive a direct hit from the Destroyer at full power.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Do we really have any reason to believe Thor is *significantly* more durable than other Asguardians in the movies? I'm actually having trouble pinning down a direct example of his superiority over anyone else that can't be attributed to Mjolnir. I'm sure you're right, I just can't think of it right now.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Um-how did you determine Thor's superiority is due to Mjolnir? Since nobody but him ever uses the damned thing it's essentially impossible to tell. Without Mjolnir granting somebody else superasgardian powers, you have exactly zero evidence for the difference between Thor and the rest of them being the hammer as opposed to Thor simply being a lot tougher.
Also, there's no U in Asgard.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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I'm pretty sure Loki wasn't really trying to kill Thor. If he wanted Thor dead, he had plenty of opportunity to kill him when he was still in his mortal form. He was just acting out because he found out he was adopted on the same day that Thor went out to slaughter scores of his kinfolk. Poor guy.

That said, I've watched Thor six times in the last two weeks, and Volstagg doesn't get hit by the Destroyer directly. The destroyer does, however, deal with three Frost Giants in a matter of seconds right at the beginning of the film, and given that Loki is a frost giant, it would make a better comparison for the relative strengths of the SHIELD weapon and the destroyer. Of course, I suspect that Frost Giants and Asgardians are about physically matched anyway, so their destruction could be used as a pretty good indication of want the Destroyer could do to your average Asgardian too.


Also, I'm pretty sure that Loki's reconnaissance was more than just that one visit. Remember him wandering around those SHIELD storage vaults while invisibly controlling Selvig at the end of Thor? He knew what SHIELD had to use against him. Mostly he just didn't count on his mind control not being loose, Thor's arrival even though the Bifrost was destroyed, the Hulk being under control and Tony Stark being willing to sacrifice his life for the cause. Apart from his misjudgement of his mind control, none of these could have been foreseen better with better recon.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Well that fight, at the start of Thor on Jotunheim has Thor clearly demonstrating superior combat prowess, smashing giants left and right like play things while his Asgardian buddies seem more 'human' in their fights. Thor is clearly hitting a lot harder- presumably because of Mjolnir rather than some inherent power Thor alone possesses. Even Odin doesn't smash frost giants around like Thor and I dare say Odin is the one person we can clearly say is more powerful than Thor. I'm not saying Thor isn't super durable (he's certainly extremely strong) I'm just looking for examples to compare him to other Asgardians in terms of durability. How would Thor hold up to what Hulk did to Loki? Took Loki a good 20 minutes to be mobile again but frankly that's amazing after being smashed 2" into granite or marble or whatever that floor was.
Lusankya wrote:That said, I've watched Thor six times in the last two weeks, and Volstagg doesn't get hit by the Destroyer directly. The destroyer does, however, deal with three Frost Giants in a matter of seconds right at the beginning of the film, and given that Loki is a frost giant, it would make a better comparison for the relative strengths of the SHIELD weapon and the destroyer. Of course, I suspect that Frost Giants and Asgardians are about physically matched anyway, so their destruction could be used as a pretty good indication of want the Destroyer could do to your average Asgardian too.
I'm still not convinced he doesn't get hit directly but it's unclear. Perhaps there is a difference, depending on who is controlling the Destroyer. I would certainly believe Odin more capable than Loki in that regard.
Lusankya wrote:I'm pretty sure Loki wasn't really trying to kill Thor. If he wanted Thor dead, he had plenty of opportunity to kill him when he was still in his mortal form. He was just acting out because he found out he was adopted on the same day that Thor went out to slaughter scores of his kinfolk. Poor guy.
Didn't Loki only really decide to kill Thor because his friends went to get him? Essentially his ruse was going to be blown?
Also, I'm pretty sure that Loki's reconnaissance was more than just that one visit. Remember him wandering around those SHIELD storage vaults while invisibly controlling Selvig at the end of Thor?
I'd completely forgotten that, you're quite right.

On an unrelated note, I'm extremely curious as to the properties of Mjolnirs 'no lifting' spell. Does it only oppose sentient attempts to move/lift it?

@Batman- thanks, I can't believe I never noticed that all this time. :oops:
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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There's exactly zero evidence indicating Thor's tougher than the rest of the Asgardians because of Mjolnir. Again, with nobody else using it there's no indication that damn hammer makes any difference. As for Odin appearing weaker than Thor, not only does that not prove that this is because of Mjolnir, but a) Odin is old while Thor is young and b) Odin is on the edge of the Odinsleep, which probably means he isn't exactly firing on all cylinders.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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I would also point out that during the flashbacks and Loki's rant, he claims that Thor has always excelled in the physical and that because of that Loki was in always in Thor's shadow with no one recognizing his superior (self-described) mental abilities as worth anything.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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I'm still not convinced he doesn't get hit directly but it's unclear. Perhaps there is a difference, depending on who is controlling the Destroyer. I would certainly believe Odin more capable than Loki in that regard.
I thought that at the beginning, it was operating on autopilot, while Loki was operating it manually, while flailing about in rage. I don't think it actually hits anyone on earth though. Lots of property damage, but Sif manages to temporarily shut it down before it hits Volstagg, and then everyone runs away and hides once they realise that stabbing it in the neck does no good.
Didn't Loki only really decide to kill Thor because his friends went to get him? Essentially his ruse was going to be blown?
I don't think Loki wanted to kill Thor even then. He certainly turned to violence once his ruse was blown, but I think the only people in real danger were Sif and the Warriors Three. If Loki really wanted Thor dead, he could have blasted him dead as he strode across the street, all heroic and graceful with his golden locks blowing in the wind. Instead, he waits for Thor to walk up to him, lets Thor give his speech, then just kinda whacks him. Pretty half-arsed effort at murder if you ask me. Then later on the Bifrost, Loki taunts Thor and scratches him on the face, rather than just blasting him into space. I think the whole thing was just Loki looking for a reaction.
On an unrelated note, I'm extremely curious as to the properties of Mjolnirs 'no lifting' spell. Does it only oppose sentient attempts to move/lift it?
Well, it does move with the motion of the earth, so astral bodies can affect it at least. Loki was incapacitated by having it placed on his chest, so even movements where moving the hammer was incidental, rather than being the primary objective are not able to move it.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Technically we don't know movie Asgard behaves like an Earthlike planet so we don't know there's any rotation period. Also, even if there is, it didn't move relative to the piece of ground Loki was lying on as that would have rotated with it/him.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that move earth behaves like an earth like planet, and has a rotation period of about 24 hours, and Mjolnir spent a good portion of the movie there.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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...Where it also wouldn't have moved WRT the ground it was resting on. Again, no relative movement.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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...yeah, that's what I said. My point about astral bodies moving it (since Mjolnir does move with respect to the sun) was separate from my point about Loki not being able to move it. I guess I could have made that clearer.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Well it's not like I was at my best either. The 'not being able to be moved on principle' vs the 'not being able to be moved locally' shouldn't have been all that hard to figure out, especially for the World's Greatest Detective.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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I was more thinking of the helicarrier. When Hulk tries to lift it his own strength drives him into the deck rather than lift Mjolnir, but we don't see it dragging the carrier down (or punching a hole in it). Presumably the carrier bobs up and down, if imperceptibly to most crew, or tilts to turn (such as when losing an engine) and Thor was clearly not holding it at the start of his fisticuffs with Hulk, so it's on the carrier somewhere, getting rocked about.
Lusankya wrote:I thought that at the beginning, it was operating on autopilot, while Loki was operating it manually, while flailing about in rage.
I don't know whether Odin is directly controlling it but he clearly releases it. His gaze is a little vacant, like he's not focused on anything in front of him but that's hardly conclusive. We know it can be directly controlled and Odin is aware of the breach, what they're invariably after and his body is pretty damn safe so why not directly control it? In hindsight if it was directly controlled it would have been a good idea to capture one of the giants rather than just incinerate them all but it all happened pretty fast, so maybe maybe. :?
Lusankya wrote:If Loki really wanted Thor dead, he could have blasted him dead as he strode across the street, all heroic and graceful with his golden locks blowing in the wind. Instead, he waits for Thor to walk up to him, lets Thor give his speech, then just kinda whacks him. Pretty half-arsed effort at murder if you ask me.
Thor does have some facial damage but he also has two pretty nasty chest wounds. Lacking the intervention of Mjolnir I'm pretty sure it would have been a successful attempt. I think Thor approaching him robbed Loki of some self righteousness- that even here where he had the physical power Thor still found a way to be 'better' than him.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Kojiro wrote:Well that fight, at the start of Thor on Jotunheim has Thor clearly demonstrating superior combat prowess, smashing giants left and right like play things while his Asgardian buddies seem more 'human' in their fights. Thor is clearly hitting a lot harder- presumably because of Mjolnir rather than some inherent power Thor alone possesses.
Isn't that opening fight scene well before Odin ensorcels Mjölnir? He enchants it, "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of THOR!" (emphasis mine)

It may have been an awesome weapon before that, but Thor was the powerful one who wielded it, until Odin stripped him of his power and placed it within Mjölnir.
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

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Terralthra wrote:It may have been an awesome weapon before that, but Thor was the powerful one who wielded it, until Odin stripped him of his power and placed it within Mjölnir.
And when Odin stripped Thor's powers, he tore off Thor's armour. Maybe Thor's power is in that. What's more likely? Son of the king gets all the good toys, or the difference in capability between Thor and the next best warrior is greater than the difference between Loki and Frigga (who we also see fighting, and who would probably make a good candidate for determining "base" Adgardian capabilities).
Kojiro wrote:Thor does have some facial damage but he also has two pretty nasty chest wounds. Lacking the intervention of Mjolnir I'm pretty sure it would have been a successful attempt. I think Thor approaching him robbed Loki of some self righteousness- that even here where he had the physical power Thor still found a way to be 'better' than him.
I don't think that was a deliberate shot to kill, though. Sure, it might have had that consequence, but Loki's not exactly thinking clearly at this stage. I mean, look at his plan:

1. Take over the throne.
2. Get Thor out of the way.
3. Commit treason by conspiring with Asgard's mortal enemies to assassinate the Allfather.
4. Stab birth father in the back in order to save adoptive father, thus foiling own assassination plot.
5. Commit genocide, even though that's exactly what got Thor banished.
6. ????
7. Become Ofin's favourite son.

It's a pretty stupid plan, but at the same time, he executes it very competently. If "kill Thor" was on that list, then Thor would be proper dead, and no amount of Mjolnirs would be able to bring him back. Actually hurting Thor wasn't part of the plan, but rather part of his general flailing around in angst, that made him do things like "piss off hemdall" and "stub his toe a million times walking up the stairs".
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Re: Avengers out on DVD

Post by mr friendly guy »

According to the Marvel Handbook there does appear to be quite a base difference between certain Asgardians, namely Thor and Odin were much stronger than the average. Presumably the imported these characteristics in the movie as well.

If we assume Odin was a "freak" among the Asgardians then Thor would have inherited some of his uber power and being much stronger than a base Asgardian doesn't seem so much far fetch.
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