Leopard 2A7I vs RX-78-2 Gundam

[Ford Prefect]

There's at least a better source he provided, but it's still hideously vague. Apparently the anti-beam coating can take "low town level heat", which is word salad. Destructive capacity is "Street level+ w/ machineguns, large building level w/ its main cannon". That's barely even a coherent sentence. It can destroy a street with its 7.62mm machine guns? Or all the buildings on a street?

'Street level' has the comic book meaning, so ... no meaning really.

My chili con carne has a heat of medium-to-large hamlet level.

[Stark]

The Federation actually sort of stops making new ships beyond the Ra Cailum class, which is why even Salamis class ships are brought out of mothballs in Victory. They do have heavy gun and missile armament, but the point is that they generally aren't sent into melees anymore like the bruhaha of Solomon or A Bao A Qu - ships instead hang back and provide cover fire. If they get close, somebody screams "It's a Gundam!" on the bridge and dies.

You mean that ship built 15 years after the OYW that also spawns the main mid-size captial ship for like 40 years? Yeah, let's ignore that. To be honest, I don't know why you're so focused on 'melees' anyway, since obviously there's no reason for capital ships to engage at close range if they can avoid it in an environment where fighter weapons can kill them. Like I said, this is so obvious even mentioning it seems redundant. Claiming that all ships are xyz when they in fact build a range of ships with a range of equipment for a range of roles is not very good. It seems more reasonable to simply say that 'melees' only occurred when people were unaware of mobile suits or unprepared for them either in doctrine or equipment.

Great, glad to see that you ignored my entire conversation where I said there were nuances to Gundam beam weapons.

Fuck off then, troll. I thought you finally grew up.

Why don't you go eat shit and learn to fucking read? I'm well used to your ability to regurgitate poorly informed wiki articles, but this comment wasn't even directed at you. Have you even ever made the claim I referred to? Or are you just fucking self-obsessed?

To do my charity work with cretins, Chitty up there clearly believes that what he reads in various support materials is more true than whats in the shows for a bunch of reasons I don't agree with. That's why he thinks beam weapons are at least sometimes light speed weapons. It may pain you to realise this, but this has nothing to do with you.

Can you establish that the beam SMGs in unicorn are similar to 90mm guns? No? SURPISE!

[Zinegata]

The Gundam has a pretty damn long range, though. If it can get close enough to target the ship, it can put a hole straight through it. And that beam is traveling too fast for ANYTHING to dodge. Most other mobile suits don't have weapons with comparable range and power, especially Zakus. Their advantage isn't firepower as much as it is maneuverability and relatively small size.

Exactly what IS the range on a GM's beam spray gun?

While the effective range of the Gundam is long, it's worth recalling that long-ranged fire tends to be horribly inaccurate for everyone. You almost never see anyone getting fragged unless both Mobile Suits are visible on-screen. With CCA you also get dummy balloons to help protect ships from getting picked off and blown up.

And the GM's beam spray gun has a range equal to exactly what the plot needs.

[Stark]

Doesn't Char snipe General Revil BVR? And hit a guy in the head with his first shot?

[Zinegata]

Stark->

Form a coherent argument other than RAR I HATES CHITTY BECAUSE HE USES WIKI.

Because in all honesty even the most generous intepretation of your "rebuttal" (which is just a mess of incoherent snark) is completely unrelated to what either of us are talking about.

[Zinegata]

Doesn't Char snipe General Revil BVR? And hit a guy in the head with his first shot?

Nope, the only ranking officer he "snipe" in the head is Kishira Zabi (or however you prefer her spelled). With a bazooka. Clearly within visual range.

Revil does get hit by Solar Ray, but that's a colony-sized laser cannon which was aiming at an entire fleet (of which only 1/3 went down)

So are you done with you little tantrum so we can get back to actually discussing justifying bizarre beam weapon choices? Which is much more interesting than your nth "HAHA I watched Unicorn!" ad nausueim?

[Stark]

Um, I mean the General Revil, the warship. I'll get a screenshot for you.

Since I know you haven't watched Unicorn.

PS when you flame someone ignorantly and are wrong, being a crybaby about it is p sad.

[Zinegata]

Um, I mean the General Revil, the warship. I'll get a screenshot for you.

You weren't clear. Also, Char's not in Unicorn. He has an expy there named Full Frontal instead (I kid people not).

Since I know you haven't watched Unicorn.

Yeah, I haven't. It's a stupid show written by a Japan ultra-nationalist; which is obviously why you keep trolling it on people because you know how awful it really is - when we're primarily talking about stuff from the original series and Zeta.

So thanks for confirming your trolling. Really should have figured you'd go full retard again once you don't have a chew toy anymore. Have a nice day.

[Stark]

Dude, are you correcting me about something you haven't seen? Just want to check.

Do I need to quote you flying off the handle about something I said in reference to a claim you didn't even make which you took personally because you're a big baby? Or are you done throwing around grown up words like 'troll'?

BTW how do you know Unicorn is bad?

Yes, I am baiting you.

[Zinegata]

Not addressed specifically to Stark, but...

BTW how do you know Unicorn is bad?

People should seriously avoid Unicorn like the plague. Not because of bad mecha action, because what I've seen of its mecha action in various previews is very good. The problem is with the writing.

I mean, seriously, you can tell that the writer was on crack when the show's main villain is named Full Frontal, I kid you not. Heck, Stark was apparently so embarassed to say it that he had to say "Char" instead of Full Frontal (my friends who watch it do that too, although they call him Not!Char).

And that's before we go into how the author is a Japanese ultra-nationalist whose most famous work prior to Unicorn involves the GOOD GUY IMPERIAL JAPANESE NAVY trying to deny a SUPAH SECRET WEAPON from the EVIL AMERICAN NAVY. In 1945.

Anyone with the Internet can look this up. That said, I have friends who have watched it, and their general opinion is that it is just a painful thing to watch beside the toy commercial bits.

Still better than Gundam Age though!

[Stark]

By reference to the actual show learning things about Gundam is easy.



Instead of being cross you probably should have pointed out that this isn't meaningful for real combat since it took a while and the pilot is a wizard, but BVR fire being accurate has seldom been the problem in Gundam.

And dude, it's actually funny that you don't get the Char thing. If you watched the show, you would. Ignorant and proud of it = Zinegata fo life.

PS if the only problem you can actually think of with the writing is Full Frontal's name, you might not actually have any problems with the writing.

oh and double PS right

note the 'light speed' beam shot there

[Zinegata]

If you watched the show, you would. Ignorant and proud of it = Zinegata fo life.

And now witness what all this threadshitting is actually about:

In Stark's world Gundam Unicorn is the entirety of Gundam lore. No original Gundam. No Zeta. No SEED. No nothing. If you haven't watched Unicorn, you're ignorant.

Which is really what every single nonesense argument you've started with me on Gundam boils down to.

If you haven't watched what Stark and his cool kids have watched, you're ignorant fo life!

[Ford Prefect]

Did you miss the part where he referred to Zeta earlier in the thread? Or talked about the original? Or when he posted a video (that he made funnily enough) from MS IGLOO? Jesus.

PS. The fact that Fukui Harutoshi is a known nationalist seems pointless to bring up when the novels are about an individualistic pro-pacifism anti-war campaigner who rejects the ideologies of both major nations in the setting and constantly seeks a means for a harmonious, peaceful end to hostilities, and even more pointless when talking about its divergent animated adaptation that doesn't feature the author in the production team.

[Stark]

It's a laugh cause Unicorn videos just look better than poor old Zeta, but zeta has at least two instances of BVR fire that I can think of off the top of my head. Almost every large battle has fleets blasting away at BVR anyway; accuracy of the weapons has never been the problem, rather target agility and fire control.

Actually in Zeta there's BVR that Chitoryu would probably call an animation error, because Kamille shoots at an asteroid that is visible, but plainly misses and is shown hitting with precision. He'd say it was an 'error' and I'd say the rock he was shooting at and hit wasn't visible, but it doesn't matter because we're talking trends and not individual data points.

Is it just me or does Zinegata bang off authoritative statements that vaguely allude to examples, and then flat out ignore other people posting actual videos showing how he might be wrong? What do we call that?

[Vendetta]

Form a coherent argument other than RAR I HATES CHITTY BECAUSE HE USES WIKI.

Now here's a thing, which has basically always been a principle of how we look at SF shows and try and figure out what the science does. It's pretty much at the core of the whole reason this website exists. Visuals trump other sources. Always. What is shown happening on screen is what is really happening, unless there is a specific in universe explanation of why it is not happening.

That means that, contrary to any sourcebooks or secondary technical manuals chitz can cite, no Gundam beam weapon has ever been shown to move at light speed, this is not an artifact of "old animation", it is simply that the beam weapons are not lightspeed.

Likewise, if the beam weapons have variable effects on similar targets with no form of invisible defences we can cite as an explanatory reason, it is because they have variable power outputs, not "because the animation is inconsistent" (which certainly makes sense, given that the big limitation of the original beam rifle was that it ran through its power pack really fast and was massive overkill in most cases).

And now witness what all this threadshitting is actually about:

In Stark's world Gundam Unicorn is the entirety of Gundam lore. No original Gundam. No Zeta. No SEED. No nothing. If you haven't watched Unicorn, you're ignorant.

You're having an argument specifically about an element of Gundam Unicorn. Actual knowledge of Unicorn is, therefore, far more relevant to that specific argument than any knowledge of any other Gundam show.

I mean I know you're in full on "disagree with Stark on general principles" mode, but could you at least try and establish a vague orbit around the subject of the discussion?

[Zinegata]

LOL. Look at the Stark Fan Boy Brigade coming to his aid.

PS. The fact that Fukui Harutoshi is a known nationalist seems pointless to bring up when the novels are about an individualistic pro-pacifism anti-war campaigner who rejects the ideologies of both major nations in the setting and constantly seeks a means for a harmonious, peaceful end to hostilities, and even more pointless when talking about its divergent animated adaptation that doesn't feature the author in the production team.

PS. You're full of shit. In reality Fukui Harutoshi is no peace-and-love author, not when the Western author he is generally compared to is Tom Clancy (you know, ultra-right wing guy? Had Jack Ryan bomb pretty much every nation that goes against freedomland including Japan?).

He's honestly just a few steps away from being on the same level as the full-on Neo-Nazis; the saving grace of his work being that he portrays some of the IJN as assholes, but when the overall plot of his best-known movie involves the US trying to nuke Japan a third time because they want to steal a Nazi bio-weapon (ignoring Japan's own bio-experiments on Chinese POWS), then you know what kind of retarded crap comes from this idiot.

Face it, Gundam has in recent years become a vehicle of the Japan ultra nationalists, with all the retarded nonsense that implies, and the fact you cheer-lead for it just to earn a few troll points makes you especially sad. Harutoshi ain't writing something like Grave of the Fireflies. He's writing something close to "March of the Titans", only one that's masquerading as entertainment.

[Zinegata]

Now here's a thing, which has basically always been a principle of how we look at SF shows and try and figure out what the science does. It's pretty much at the core of the whole reason this website exists. Visuals trump other sources. Always. What is shown happening on screen is what is really happening, unless there is a specific in universe explanation of why it is not happening.

That means that, contrary to any sourcebooks or secondary technical manuals chitz can cite, no Gundam beam weapon has ever been shown to move at light speed, this is not an artifact of "old animation", it is simply that the beam weapons are not lightspeed.

And as we both have been saying, the visuals are not consistent even with the speed of the weapons. Regardless of that however, I seriously doubt that a particle energy beam will move considerably slower than a projectile ammunition, which is what I and Chitty were actually comparing and which you and Stark are trying to muddle.

Seriously, a 90mm shell of much greater mass than a subatomic particle will move faster? Seriously? Even conceding the point that the animation does not show the beam moving at the speed of light, you're still splitting hairs to a hilariously ridiculous degree that it can only be described as ass-covering.

Likewise, if the beam weapons have variable effects on similar targets with no form of invisible defences we can cite as an explanatory reason, it is because they have variable power outputs, not "because the animation is inconsistent" (which certainly makes sense, given that the big limitation of the original beam rifle was that it ran through its power pack really fast and was massive overkill in most cases).

Or as I said, the newer Mobile Suits could in fact have incorporated new defenses not available to older models. This is just as plausible a reason, and yet we have Stark throwing another hissy fit because HURDURR I WATCH UNICORN and I WANNA BAN ZINE, WAH.

So really, what kind of nonsense lies are you trying to pull here?

You're having an argument specifically about an element of Gundam Unicorn. Actual knowledge of Unicorn is, therefore, far more relevant to that specific argument than any knowledge of any other Gundam show.

No, dumbshit.

First of all, the argument is not about a specific element of Unicorn. That was a tangent Stark created, which I pointed out that he was wrong in. What we're actually discussing about - which is much more interesting than Stark's latest "I AM BORED FEED ME" nonsense, is the explanation for the variances in beam weapon firepower, and the employment of UC capital ships.

If you're referring specifically to the tangent, there is no "Char" character in Unicorn. There is only Full Frontal, who as I said is an expy of Char. Anyone with an Internet connection can look that up. And I do have friends who have watched Unicorn who do gleefully point out how retarded "Full Frontal" is as a name when in reality he's just Not!Char.

So, really, are you seriously saying that you need to watch Unicorn to know that the character's official name is in fact Full Frontal, and that any attempt to create a nickname for him just boils down to someone's opinion?

[Vendetta]

And as we both have been saying, the visuals are not consistent even with the speed of the weapons. Regardless of that however, I seriously doubt that a particle energy beam will move considerably slower than a projectile ammunition, which is what I and Chitty were actually comparing and which you and Stark are trying to muddle.

See here's the thing, the fact that the visuals show the weapons moving at different speeds means, maybe, they're actually moving at variable speeds. Because what is shown on screen is, whether you like it or not, what is actually happening.

o, really, are you seriously saying that you need to watch Unicorn to know that the character's official name is in fact Full Frontal, and that any attempt to create a nickname for him just boils down to someone's opinion?

No, but if you even read the episode synopsis on Wikifuckingpedia you'd know that the series drops space colony sized hints that Full Frontal is actually Char. That's what Stark is talking about, if you had watched Unicorn you would know that, I know that and I've only read the episode synopsis. But you keep trying to correct him when you're wrong.

[Zinegata]

See here's the thing, the fact that the visuals show the weapons moving at different speeds means, maybe, they're actually moving at variable speeds. Because what is shown on screen is, whether you like it or not, what is actually happening.

And again, how does that relate vs 90mm projectile fire? Because that's what we were actually discussing before you and Stark decided to engage in your face-saving crusade.

Are you seriously contending that a 90mm shell can move faster than a subatomic particle accelerated into a particle beam? Y/N?

If Yes, then doesn't that make the beam particle weapon utterly stupid and retarded?

No, but if you even read the episode synopsis on Wikifuckingpedia you'd know that the series drops space colony sized hints that Full Frontal is actually Char. That's what Stark is talking about, if you had watched Unicorn you would know that, I know that and I've only read the episode synopsis. But you keep trying to correct him when you're wrong.

The wiki doesn't say that at all. Observe:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Full_Frontal

In reality, he's a genetically altered near-exact doppelgänger of Char, a Cyber Newtype with the near exact distinctions of Char

So, again, what are you trying to prove here? We should now treat all Clone troopers as the same character because they're clones? Why do you think I called him a Char Expy? Why do you think my friends call him Not!Char?

The only thing that you are proving is the ridiculous depths of semantic nonsense you have to pull to prove Stark "right".

[Zinegata]

Is it just me or does Zinegata bang off authoritative statements that vaguely allude to examples, and then flat out ignore other people posting actual videos showing how he might be wrong? What do we call that?

Is it just me, or Stark loves lying out of his ass, because his entire existence is only made meaningful by demonizing people by making shit up about them; all in the name of "winning" an argument.

What I actually said:

it's worth recalling that long-ranged fire tends to be horribly inaccurate for everyone. You almost never see anyone getting fragged unless both Mobile Suits are visible on-screen.

How many examples did Stark actually show again? Two. Out of what, 150 episodes? 3 movies? A couple of OVA series?

Yeah, sure, BVR (not even the right term really, since BVR implies use of radar and non-visual detection which Minovsky shuts down) kills sure are common now that Stark found two examples. Not "almost never seen" like Zine said, nope!

So yeah, your argument? Hilariously bad and just boils down to your crippling self-esteem issues. Woe is poor Stark, getting bullied by Zine's "authoritive" tone. Good that you clarified though, figured that was it!

[Ford Prefect]

PS. You're full of shit. In reality Fukui Harutoshi is no peace-and-love author, not when the Western author he is generally compared to is Tom Clancy (you know, ultra-right wing guy? Had Jack Ryan bomb pretty much every nation that goes against freedomland including Japan?).

I'm full of shit? You're the one claiming to know, intimately, the details of a novel you've never even read, as well as its adaptation which you've never even watched. I bet you didn't even know the author's name until I mentioned it. So jump up your own ass. The author is who the author is, but the content of Gundam Unicorn is the content of Gundam Unicorn. It is a fact - a stone cold, iron clad, clear as crystal, absolute as gravity fact - that the protagonist of Gundam Unicorn is pro-pacifism, anti-war, and seeking a solution whereby peace can be achieved with a minimum of violence. No one denies that Fukui has written material celebratory of the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy, but Gundam Unicorn is a work which is incredibly far from militarist.

Incidentally just to point this out you are jumping to the conclusion that because Stark referred to Full Frontal, a character referred to as the second coming of Char within the work itself, a character who has taken Char's place within the narrative and as a part of the narrative, a character who is physically identical to Char right down to the scar on his forehead, as Char that therefore he must be 'embarrassed' of the writing. And you think we're being unreasonable.

Additionally, the producer of the OVA has made it clear that not all details will be the same between the novel and adaptation. There are substantial differences all throughout the OVAs, from Micott being in AE engineering school with Banagher to Loni being the only crew of the Shambloo. There's no guarantee that Full Frontal is a modified cyber-newtype any longer. You'd know this if you weren't just talking out of your ass.

[Zinegata]

I'm full of shit?

Yes, because I wouldn't bother reading something whose flap cover decription is closer to Neo-Nazi fanfiction than a serious treatment of the subject. This is why you keep spouting about intangible "But he meant it be anti-war" dribble while ignoring the reviews compare him to Tom Clancy and do not deny that the actual synopsis revolves around EVIL AMERICA trying to nuke Japan a third time as though they were blameless in the Pacific War.

Really, this is all you need to know about the author:

No one denies that Fukui has written material celebratory of the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy

And I do not support war crimes apologists.

But hey, he bashes America! Your crowd loves that, doesn't it? So really, why don't you drop this "Get Zine to read what he considers a watered down version of March of the Titans" tangent? All just to show me one example of a long-ranged kill out of 150+ episodes? Seriously?

Moreover...

Gundam Unicorn is a work which is incredibly far from militarist.

Pretty much every review I've had from my friends agree that Unicorn is not "militarist" only because the damn show has no idea where it's going. It's not even very good at portraying "war is hell" trope that used to be Gundam's forte (and its core anti-militarist theme); whereas glorification of Zeon (Nazi Germany equivalent) is at the forefront. And it is certainly not overtly pacifist like Gundam Wing.

So, tell me, should I trust my friends, or should I trust you whose only clear interest is to continue playing these stupid troll games?

Incidentally just to point this out you are jumping to the conclusion that because Stark referred to Full Frontal, a character referred to as the second coming of Char within the work itself, a character who has taken Char's place within the narrative and as a part of the narrative, a character who is physically identical to Char right down to the scar on his forehead, as Char that therefore he must be 'embarrassed' of the writing. And you think we're being unreasonable.

No, I said the name was embarassing. Seriously man, Full Frontal?

Additionally, the producer of the OVA has made it clear that not all details will be the same between the novel and adaptation. There are substantial differences all throughout the OVAs, from Micott being in AE engineering school with Banagher to Loni being the only crew of the Shambloo. There's no guarantee that Full Frontal is a modified cyber-newtype any longer. You'd know this if you weren't just talking out of your ass.

In short, he might not even be Char at all or is clone either. Which means he should be referred to his actual name of Full Frontal.

But nah, Stark confusing things is so much more amusing, and then declaring victory when people inevitably get confused because you refuse to use the character's actual name instead of your suspicions of who he is.

[Vendetta]

And again, how does that relate vs 90mm projectile fire? Because that's what we were actually discussing before you and Stark decided to engage in your face-saving crusade.

The only origin of that was that in Zeta 90mm cannon are common, and in later UC timeline smaller beam weapons are used. Chitz said that this was because beam weapons are near lightspeed because "canon", but that is patently not true ever in Gundam.

However, "not lightspeed, variable beam velocity" does not mean "always slower than 90mm cannon". Unless you can demonstrate from the series that the 90mm cannon used in Zeta were consistently faster projectiles and consistently more effective against likely targets, then it is clear that the smaller beam weapons were adopted because they were tactically more useful.

[Zinegata]

And again, how does that relate vs 90mm projectile fire? Because that's what we were actually discussing before you and Stark decided to engage in your face-saving crusade.

The only origin of that was that in Zeta 90mm cannon are common, and in later UC timeline smaller beam weapons are used. Chitz said that this was because beam weapons are near lightspeed because "canon", but that is patently not true ever in Gundam.

However, "not lightspeed, variable beam velocity" does not mean "always slower than 90mm cannon". Unless you can demonstrate from the series that the 90mm cannon used in Zeta were consistently faster projectiles and consistently more effective against likely targets, then it is clear that the smaller beam weapons were adopted because they were tactically more useful.

Again, I agree that the "light speed" bit was wrong.

Secondly, I was looking for an advantage of the beam weapon over the 90mm gun. In short, I am looking for a justification why they'd adopt them over projectile weapons.

And in that regard I agreed with Chitz that beam velocity being faster than 90mm projectiles means beam weapons do have a distinct advantage, therefore it's better to use beam weapons because they'd be more accurate. And really, although he did talk in terms of light speed, he is clearly NOT wedded to the idea either - note our VSBR dicussion wherein particles CAN and DO vary in speed; just not slow enough to be slower than 90mm projectiles.

In short, we have no real point of disagreement. Beam velocity is higher than any projectile, hence it's more accurate. Other factors (e.g. it may be lighter) also come into play.

You're now actually arguing more against Stark, who pointed out (which we never denied) that beam hits do not always result in penetrations or kills. I posited it may be because of anti-beam coating technology which was applied to later-era Mobile Suits. He posited it was because beams do not really over penetrate intrinsically. I don't think he's wrong; it's certainly a possibility - I'm just putting forward a different possibility.

[Ford Prefect]

Pretty much every review I've had from my friends agree that Unicorn is not "militarist" only because the damn show has no idea where it's going. It's not even very good at portraying "war is hell" trope that used to be Gundam's forte (and its core anti-militarist theme); whereas glorification of Zeon (Nazi Germany equivalent) is at the forefront. And it is certainly not overtly pacifist like Gundam Wing.

So, tell me, should I trust my friends, or should I trust you whose only clear interest is to continue playing these stupid troll games?

Gundam Unicorn does not 'glorify' Zeon. That is a fact. Your friends may have told you otherwise, but they are simply wrong. An entire episode is literally devoted to deconstructing the Zeon myth, showing it to be full of blind, useless vengeance that exists only to be used by others as part of their wider ambitions, and has corrupted new generations with its cycle of hate. In the very first episode Cardeas Vist looks a Zeke in eye and says 'if you wish to use Laplace's Box for the revival of Zeon, you are not capable of using it'. It is as relentlessly scathing of Zeon as it is of the Federation.

These are facts of the narrative. If you wish to continue in ignorance then that's your choice. You appear to be from the school which equivocates presenting the One Year War in shades of gray as literally being Nazi/Imperial Japan apologia. You are actually comparing this novel and OVA - that contains none of the content you are complaining about - to the works of a known white supremacist. Are you posting from within an asylum?