Simon_Jester wrote:Do we have any evidence that Gungan personal shields actually stop lightsabers?
They might not for all I know.
That is a good point. They can stop blasters well enough but we do not see them stopping lightsabers.
A lightsaber is a small cylindrical object that slips easily into a pocket. It is far easier to concealed-carry than any real life handgun except for a few dedicated special operations firearms... which tend to be rather inferior as actual combat weapons, to the extent that a lightsaber would be a better choice than a blaster that was just as easy to conceal.
If I remember the size correctly it's definitively not something as small as you say. Those things are basically the size of a two handed sword grip which is long.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
They're 20-30cm, which is a bit long to easily fit in pants pockets, but not out of the realm of possibility. I have pants pockets that deep. Certainly reasonably concealable, without the angle between grip and barrel that makes pistols difficult to conceal in a way that's practical.
Terralthra wrote:They're 20-30cm, which is a bit long to easily fit in pants pockets, but not out of the realm of possibility. I have pants pockets that deep. Certainly reasonably concealable, without the angle between grip and barrel that makes pistols difficult to conceal in a way that's practical.
The diameter would also be an issue. Length isn't the only measurement here. About the only lightsaber around that can really easily fit in a standard pocket is Yoda's. You really need to design a pocket for a lightsaber if you want to hide it. Which, all things being equal, is not really a bad idea, as it hasn't been done for other things I imagine.
Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time. Just like there is a certain something to be said about having one handy to make people take notice. So I think its not smart that they neglect 50% of that arrangement.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time.
In the EU, at least, it is mentioned that it is quite easy to disguise a lightsaber as something fairly mundane (e.g. I think at one point Luke disguises his lightsaber as a shaving device). And frankly, given the scarcity of lightsabers, I doubt that's going to be the first thing anyone thinks of when they encounter an object that might be one.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time. Just like there is a certain something to be said about having one handy to make people take notice. So I think its not smart that they neglect 50% of that arrangement.
that said you could probably disguise a lightsabre as a wrench or similar tool if you need to hide it, the main jedi in SW:rebels (Kanaan was it?) had no major problems carrying a disasembled lightsabre with him at all times.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time.
In the EU, at least, it is mentioned that it is quite easy to disguise a lightsaber as something fairly mundane (e.g. I think at one point Luke disguises his lightsaber as a shaving device). And frankly, given the scarcity of lightsabers, I doubt that's going to be the first thing anyone thinks of when they encounter an object that might be one.
Corran Horn disguises his as a wrench at one point. Lots of things have handles.
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time. Just like there is a certain something to be said about having one handy to make people take notice. So I think its not smart that they neglect 50% of that arrangement.
And ?
Compare it to a police badge. They carry it with them while on duty. But when it's a problem, they leave their badge behind. They don't call a badge a bad idea just because it interferes with covert activities.
The same thing applies with lightsabers.
Simon_Jester wrote:The main point I'm making here is that both these situations make it very difficult if not impossible for an army to prosecute the war effectively. The situation "the enemy has a substantial number of 'werewolves' and we only have enough 'silver' to make a few dozen spearpoints per thousand soldiers while everyone else gets nothing..."
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time. Just like there is a certain something to be said about having one handy to make people take notice. So I think its not smart that they neglect 50% of that arrangement.
And ?
Compare it to a police badge. They carry it with them while on duty. But when it's a problem, they leave their badge behind. They don't call a badge a bad idea just because it interferes with covert activities.
The same thing applies with lightsabers.
But your badge is not also your only weapon.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
I doubt that's going to be the first thing anyone thinks of when they encounter an object that might be one.
What do you make then of young Anakin instantly recognizing one? Jedi didn't visit Tatooine very often...
that was also during the time when the Jedi were fairly strong and Qui Gon made only minimal effort to hide that he was a Jedi, now if jedi was under cover or hiding during the imperial era he'd probably make more effort to make his Lightsabre look like something else.
and that's ignoring the fact that Anakin Skywalker is Force aware so he's inhertly better at noticing things that are important then most people.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Purple wrote:Thing is, whilst a lighsaber can be hidden a blaster does not nesecerily have to. If you are caught with a lightsaber you are a Jedi. If you are caught with a blaster you are just a generic thug. There is a certain something to be said about not having an obvious badge of Jediness on you at all time. Just like there is a certain something to be said about having one handy to make people take notice. So I think its not smart that they neglect 50% of that arrangement.
And ?
Compare it to a police badge. They carry it with them while on duty. But when it's a problem, they leave their badge behind. They don't call a badge a bad idea just because it interferes with covert activities.
The same thing applies with lightsabers.
But your badge is not also your only weapon.
So take an appropriate weapon for those situations. Because I doubt that there will be any weapon that works for every single covert activity a Jedi might get involved in. So thinking about what to take is required.
But those situations are exceptions to the usual activities of a Jedi. For the majority of them, a lightsaber is the best choice for a Jedi.
Simon_Jester wrote:The main point I'm making here is that both these situations make it very difficult if not impossible for an army to prosecute the war effectively. The situation "the enemy has a substantial number of 'werewolves' and we only have enough 'silver' to make a few dozen spearpoints per thousand soldiers while everyone else gets nothing..."
That is not a tenable situation for an army.
What if your side also has werewolfs?
Then the rest of your army is in an untenable position, while the werewolves on each side are unable to actually harm each other due to lack of the magic weapons needed to do so.
If my supermonster units can actually harm your supermonster units, then you recover something like tank-infantry partnership... assuming there's anything normal infantry can do that supermonsters can't.
Or you go all the way back to the medieval lance, which consists of one knight, or in this case werewolf and their support team, their squires and horse holders and men at arms, who scout for, forage for, skirmish for, and stand guard over the boss, cover his back, fight enemy support teams doing the same thing, make his life easier and shape the battlefield in his favour when it comes to the big fight; that's probably a closer model and match for it all.
Hm. That's a little more plausible, although the rest of the 'lance' is liable to be of the "run screaming in terror when the enemy shows up" type, because they don't have weapons capable of posing a threat to enemy supermonsters.
Heh. Really, I was using 'werewolf' and 'silver' as a proxy. Basically, the original idea was that you might need melee weapons to win fights against some kind of enemy that cannot be killed by normal means. If you need an exotic material to win through, and there isn't enough to make ammunition out of it, then that might justify it. The problem then is that if there isn't enough unobtainium to make ammo for everyone there probably isn't enough to make swords for everyone either.
You get a different situation if 'mere' overwhelming conventional firepower is enough to solve your problem. In which case the unobtainium swords are almost always not the best plan anyway.
What about this type of approach - basically, there's some kind of shield/defense tech which is impenetrable save for some special type of weapon - one which is too rare or requires some special ability, to outfit all regular soldiers with it - you have your special units that can be called upon to take down this shield/enchantment/whatever, with the regular forces providing cover/security for them as they do so.
I mean, at this point, it's becoming apparent that this type of setup would require a lot of suspension of disbelief, to even be feasible...
Simon_Jester wrote:The main point I'm making here is that both these situations make it very difficult if not impossible for an army to prosecute the war effectively. The situation "the enemy has a substantial number of 'werewolves' and we only have enough 'silver' to make a few dozen spearpoints per thousand soldiers while everyone else gets nothing..."
That is not a tenable situation for an army.
What if your side also has werewolfs?
Then the rest of your army is in an untenable position, while the werewolves on each side are unteable to actually harm each other due to lack of the magic weapons needed to do so.
If my supermonster units can actually harm your supermonster units, then you recover something like tank-infantry partnership... assuming there's anything normal infantry can do that supermonsters can't.
Are you assuming the normal infantry won't be able to contribute to the fight at all?
I was using 'werewolf' and 'silver' as a proxy. Basically, the original idea was that you might need melee weapons to win fights against some kind of enemy that cannot be killed by normal means.
Yeah I know. But the video does make a point. Whatever super-creature you encounter would have to be flat out immune to normal attacks (impenetrable skin) or you could potentially have the situation arise where the creature could be fragged by an explosive, cut apart by a lightsaber, crushed by a tank, or whatever. It may survive, but I can't imagine it would regenerate quickly if it is explosively transformed into a cloud of pink mist. That would give time for a more permanent solution to arrive on scene to finish the job. Because if neutralizing a werewolf is as easy as hitting it with an RPG and waiting for a "hazmat" team to show up...that doesn't seem all that dangerous really.
I was using 'werewolf' and 'silver' as a proxy. Basically, the original idea was that you might need melee weapons to win fights against some kind of enemy that cannot be killed by normal means.
Yeah I know. But the video does make a point. Whatever super-creature you encounter would have to be flat out immune to normal attacks (impenetrable skin) or you could potentially have the situation arise where the creature could be fragged by an explosive, cut apart by a lightsaber, crushed by a tank, or whatever. It may survive, but I can't imagine it would regenerate quickly if it is explosively transformed into a cloud of pink mist. That would give time for a more permanent solution to arrive on scene to finish the job. Because if neutralizing a werewolf is as easy as hitting it with an RPG and waiting for a "hazmat" team to show up...that doesn't seem all that dangerous really.
How hard is it to hit a man sized target with a rpg?
How hard is it to hit a man sized target with a rpg?
If it's charging straight at you? Should be easy enough to hit it directly. Otherwise a shrapnel wound could still sever tendons or remove limbs, which would make a follow-up shot easier.
lance wrote:How hard is it to hit a man sized target with a rpg?
Why would you expect it to be harder than hitting with a single shot from any other weapon? RPGs aren't slow and inaccurate like they are in movies and games.
Actually yes they are. RPGs typically have half to 2/3rds the 'muzzle' velocity of a pistol leave alone a full-up rifle. Plus, they're heavier and more unwieldy so harder to aim especially in snapshot situations. Shouldn't make 'that' much difference at the lower end of typical infantry fighting ranges but it likely 'will' make a difference.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
But the video does make a point. Whatever super-creature you encounter would have to be flat out immune to normal attacks (impenetrable skin) or you could potentially have the situation arise where the creature could be fragged by an explosive, cut apart by a lightsaber, crushed by a tank, or whatever. It may survive, but I can't imagine it would regenerate quickly if it is explosively transformed into a cloud of pink mist. That would give time for a more permanent solution to arrive on scene to finish the job. Because if neutralizing a werewolf is as easy as hitting it with an RPG and waiting for a "hazmat" team to show up...that doesn't seem all that dangerous really.
