Pacific Rim- how to do it more efficiently?

[Gaidin]

I will note that when not close to shore, Kaiju spend most of their time submerged, so you will almost certainly have to hit 'em within the city a lot of the time, though.

Those things are god damn big. You don't have to be close to a city to be too big to be underwater. Take note of the Anchorage fight that, while it happened outside of where they were commanded to fight, they were still fighting above the waterline.

[Q99]

Those things are god damn big. You don't have to be close to a city to be too big to be underwater. Take note of the Anchorage fight that, while it happened outside of where they were commanded to fight, they were still fighting above the waterline.

Note that during part of the fight, Knifehead ducked under the water then came back up. Hong Kong had the same thing happened when Leatherback snuck up on Cherno.

They need to stand up to fight, but can stay surprisingly low and still move (if not fight)- well, depending on make and model, I suppose. Onibaba seems like it'd have more trouble doing so, and Slattern's freakin huge regardless....


Though it might be better to think, not in terms of distance, but time. "How long between when a Kaiju has to surface, and when it's in a cover and collateral-rich environment?". One mile doesn't translate into a lot of time.

[JI_Joe84]

Coming up with a different use for similar technology isn't a stretch. We pretty much do it every day. It's a fairly legit question. What else could they have used the Jaeger level research on and made this easier.

Agreed, and using the same tools in a toolbox in different ways is quite interesting. If you need to go a fair bit different the shown technologies though, and want tools outside the available box, that's kind cheating, though, and opens the limits so broad it doesn't say much about what they could've done (if there's no limits, you can just say, 'giant orbital laser canon, done.'). Figuring out stuff with tools at least close to what they have, that are either RL possible or definitely PR possible, is the challenge.

I'll note that the original post question is more applying this type of question to the Precursors- What other uses and approaches could be done with the kaiju-making tech?

Not the neural link, mind you. Though maybe there's a use for that in cases. A lot more went into that. The material research for the armor. The hydraulics. The electronics. The heavy weaponry for a few of them. The power systems. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot. And that's not counting all the support systems they had to come up with or logistics. You think using that stops at the Jaegers? They should've been using that everywhere.

Though it's not rare for their to be logistic bottlenecks for new technology. Most of the stuff, like the power plants and weapon, were huge and thus would require huge facilities to make, and not all of it would scale down (though some stuff, like the armor, can obviously be made in smaller amounts). Filtering through to small scale stuff and ubiquitousness normally takes time with technology. So, there's going to be some limits in how much can be deployed in the short run, whatever the approach used.

Establish a sort of protocol for a line in the sand where they fight. Kaiju got past a Jaeger you say? Launch emergency advanced bomber squadron capable of dropping a payload kinda like those bombs the Australian Jaeger was launching out of its chest(if likely lighter) before it gets closer to shore to soften it up if necessary for a secondary.

Yea, that's a logical and straightforwardly effective.

I will note that when not close to shore, Kaiju spend most of their time submerged, so you will almost certainly have to hit 'em within the city a lot of the time, though.

U will note stryker took down the wall breacher with its chest missiles. Physical impact blunt force trauma (lots of it) to the head and chest vitals took that critter down for good. How can you miss that? It's only the second battle scene in the movie!

Point, but it did take a repeated series of hits from very large explosives. The punches never did more than stun a target.

Hhhm this sounds like supposition with out any evidence behind it at all. U need to show evidence why this won't work.

You need evidence that slapping works? Really? ^^;

Look at anyone deal with a mosquito.

Heck, on drilling, didn't Hannibal say it took so long to drill through a skull the stuff on the other side would rot by the time they're done?

Ok first thing:The missiles had no explosives, they were kinetic impactors.
Second thing: Hannibal was using stuff his guys could pick up and walk off with. He likely was not thinking on the same scale as we are. If the drill torp was designed to attack kiju it would be the size of modern day nuclear sub's, that's a bit different from a guy and his friends carving out a few pieces to sell. It's 2 totally different weight classes that are on two different ends of the spectrum.

[Venator]

U will note stryker took down the wall breacher with its chest missiles. Physical impact blunt force trauma (lots of it) to the head and chest vitals took that critter down for good. How can you miss that? It's only the second battle scene in the movie!

Point, but it did take a repeated series of hits from very large explosives. The punches never did more than stun a target.

Ok first thing:The missiles had no explosives, they were kinetic impactors.

Unless you're suggesting that Mutavore's flesh was actually explosive-reactive armour, I suggest you watch that scene again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRCybe_M_Q

[Q99]

Second thing: Hannibal was using stuff his guys could pick up and walk off with. He likely was not thinking on the same scale as we are.

They were still a rather large operation, they were a major source of funding for the remaining Jaegers in exchange for having rights to the Kaiju carcuses.

If the drill torp was designed to attack kiju it would be the size of modern day nuclear sub's, that's a bit different from a guy and his friends carving out a few pieces to sell. It's 2 totally different weight classes that are on two different ends of the spectrum.

Oh, if it's that big, then yea, mosquito analogy is no good! That's, like... well, I dunno a good analogy, but that's a really really big target. A Virginia class attack sub is 115 m long with a 10 meter beam- it's not all that different in scale from a kaiju.

That should suffer difficulties with hitting- it'd be both very slow and unmaneuverable next to a Kaiju- but if it did it, it seems like smashing it would be pretty easy so a 'take some time drilling' strategy seems unlikely to work because nothing will ignore something that big, it'll immediately remove it (just, y'know, hit it, it's a huge target), and conversely, if you can hit with something that big front on, you don't need to drill anyway, a shaped charge warhead that size will do the job (because, yikes, you could put a huge warhead on that! That's way bigger than all the warheads in Striker's K-stunners combined).

[Sky Captain]

Unless you're suggesting that Mutavore's flesh was actually explosive-reactive armour, I suggest you watch that scene again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRCybe_M_Q

Those missiles actually are quite weak for their size. Launch tubes on the Stryker Eureka chest should be around 2 meters in diameter and 6 - 8 meters long. You could put a one hell of a missile into that. Even largest Russian anti ship missiles are smaller. Yet the effects from Stryker Eureka's missiles were fairly unimpressive. Explosions didn't even break nearby windows. Real missiles on that scale built with best technology available now and fired in a similar volley would have demolished nearby scyscrapers with shockwaves.

if you can hit with something that big front on, you don't need to drill anyway, a shaped charge warhead that size will do the job (because, yikes, you could put a huge warhead on that! That's way bigger than all the warheads in Striker's K-stunners combined).

If we go for real overkill you could put a 500 megaton or bigger hydrogen bomb on torpedo that large.

[Venator]

Unless you're suggesting that Mutavore's flesh was actually explosive-reactive armour, I suggest you watch that scene again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRCybe_M_Q

Those missiles actually are quite weak for their size. Launch tubes on the Stryker Eureka chest should be around 2 meters in diameter and 6 - 8 meters long. You could put a one hell of a missile into that. Even largest Russian anti ship missiles are smaller. Yet the effects from Stryker Eureka's missiles were fairly unimpressive. Explosions didn't even break nearby windows. Real missiles on that scale built with best technology available now and fired in a similar volley would have demolished nearby scyscrapers with shockwaves.

That was in response to JI_Joe's insistence that the missiles were kinetic impactors with no warheads. No argument that they're shitty explosives, I was only pointing out that they were at least some kind of explosive.

Actually, rather than simple explosives if you're working on that scale something like jumbo-HEAT or HESH might achieve maximum tissue damage a lot better.

[Sky Captain]

That was in response to JI_Joe's insistence that the missiles were kinetic impactors with no warheads. No argument that they're shitty explosives, I was only pointing out that they were at least some kind of explosive.

Actually, rather than simple explosives if you're working on that scale something like jumbo-HEAT or HESH might achieve maximum tissue damage a lot better.

I think it is possible to explain Striker Eureka's missiles as kinetic impactors if we assume explosions were not from the warhead, but from solid rocket motor with some unused fuel exploding on impact. Then fairly weak explosion shown makes some sense. Missile scene also show Kaiju are vulnerable to conventional weapons and there is no reason aircraft armed with large guided bombs or missiles couldn't put one down really easily.

[Borgholio]

Missile scene also show Kaiju are vulnerable to conventional weapons and there is no reason aircraft armed with large guided bombs or missiles couldn't put one down really easily.

One of many inconsistencies in the movie. A bunker buster bomb or a MOAB would hit with more force than a Jaeger's fist, and wouldn't take out the whole city like a nuke would.

[Q99]

Any reason anyone's assuming the missiles to be kinetic impactors?

Novelization says 'The Anti-Kaiju Missiles, K-Stunner rockets, are designed to burrow into the skin of the Kaiju and explode for maximum effect.'

So, huh, a bit of the burrowing thing there, and definitely designed to go deep rather than to have a big blast.

One of many inconsistencies in the movie. A bunker buster bomb or a MOAB would hit with more force than a Jaeger's fist, and wouldn't take out the whole city like a nuke would.

Jaeger fists, as noted, don't kill Kaiju, though, they just stun them. And heck, per the screenwriter, it took 2 nukes to kill Trespasser, so how many MOABs would you need?

Striker's missiles worked, but that's 6 hits from large direct strikes in rapid succession, and apparently designed to penetrate deep.

If we go for real overkill you could put a 500 megaton or bigger hydrogen bomb on torpedo that large.

I don't think you'd need a 'torpedo' at that size It's too slow to catch up in a chase anyway, so, gigantic mine.

[Borgholio]

Jaeger fists, as noted, don't kill Kaiju, though, they just stun them. And heck, per the screenwriter, it took 2 nukes to kill Trespasser, so how many MOABs would you need?

Striker's missiles worked, but that's 6 hits from large direct strikes in rapid succession, and apparently designed to penetrate deep.

See that's exactly what I'm talking about. A MOAB can provide far more kinetic force than a Jaeger punch and a fraction of the cost. If penetration is needed, then just build a bunch of anti-Kaiju hypersonic missiles and skip the giant robot firing platform.

[Sky Captain]

Any reason anyone's assuming the missiles to be kinetic impactors?

Novelization says 'The Anti-Kaiju Missiles, K-Stunner rockets, are designed to burrow into the skin of the Kaiju and explode for maximum effect.'

So, huh, a bit of the burrowing thing there, and definitely designed to go deep rather than to have a big blast.

That's high explosive armor piercing warhead - something that humans invented in WW2 to defeat bunkers and battleships. If we go for oversize conventional weapons then have a Massive Ordnance Penetrator fitted with powerful solid rocket booster. Keep total weight around 50 - 60 tons so two of the things could be carried by large cargo aircraft like C 5 Galaxy or An 124. Some airframe modifications would be needed to install underwing hardpoints one under each wing so two missiles could be carried. End result is a weapon system that is air mobile, far more powerful than K stunner rockets and is built based on existing technology.

[Gaidin]

Jaeger fists, as noted, don't kill Kaiju, though, they just stun them. And heck, per the screenwriter, it took 2 nukes to kill Trespasser, so how many MOABs would you need?

Striker's missiles worked, but that's 6 hits from large direct strikes in rapid succession, and apparently designed to penetrate deep.

See that's exactly what I'm talking about. A MOAB can provide far more kinetic force than a Jaeger punch and a fraction of the cost. If penetration is needed, then just build a bunch of anti-Kaiju hypersonic missiles and skip the giant robot firing platform.

A MOAB is a totally different concept than the missiles that the Jaeger were using. Close range, apparently hilariously little guidance I'm willing to bet. Burrow quickly past whatever we might call the skin, and then light up. The Jaeger is basically using a bunker buster with hilariously little depth. On purpose. A MOAB, from what I read bears analogy to a daisy cutter. You really want to light that thing up in a what you're designing for a fight in a city?

Ok. Go ahead.

[Borgholio]

A MOAB is a totally different concept than the missiles that the Jaeger were using. Close range, apparently hilariously little guidance I'm willing to bet. Burrow quickly past whatever we might call the skin, and then light up. The Jaeger is basically using a bunker buster with hilariously little depth. On purpose. A MOAB, from what I read bears analogy to a daisy cutter. You really want to light that thing up in a what you're designing for a fight in a city?

Ok. Go ahead.

I was comparing a MOAB to a Jaeger's fists in terms of sheer "punching" power. Yes the best thing to combat a Kaiju would be a high-speed penetrator, but a MOAB should be able to do enough damage to a Kaiju to at least knock it on it's ass. And yes, compared to nuking an entire city, I'd much prefer a MOAB.

[Gaidin]

When the hell did I say drop a nuke on the city?

[Borgholio]

You questioned the idea of dropping a MOAB in a city, implying that there would be substantial collateral damage to the city which is undesirable. However, the military has already been seen as willing to use nukes, so the idea of using a smaller, less destructive, yet still effective weapon would be desirable. In answer to your question, yes, I really would light that thing up for a fight in the city.

[Sea Skimmer]

Just build shaped charges of smaller sizes. They scale up infinitely, and in fact become proportionally more effective the bigger they get because the warhead focusing effect efficiency is based on relative precision. So the bigger the warhead the bigger the absolute errors in manufacturing can be for the same efficiency, or you can keep the same error and have a more efficient warhead. And you can stack more depth of explosive behind the liner without wasting the energy via waveshapers. This is why heavy anti tank missiles are so effective and various internet circulated formulas for penetration or 'x whatever diameters' stuff generally don't line up so well with reality. Bigger is just better. Thus say why a 40mm grenade is only rated at 50-80mm penetration, yet a 175mm Hellfire can do over 1000mm.

End result is if you build a shaped charge the size of a 2000lb Mk84 bomb it'd be able to go through ~eighteen feet of steel armor no problem at all, and have all that blast energy behind it. Such armor would BTW weigh about four and a half tons per square foot of coverage. Germany built a shaped charge that weighed three tonnes for the Minstral program in WW2, it penetrated 60 feet of concrete in a test and had estimated 24ft performance against steel but was never tested as such for want of a suitable target. That was with crummy WW2 technology. No HMX based explosives or exotic liner material like the now popular molybdenum.

Even if the monsters were made of solid armor plate they'd be swiftly destroyed by weapons like this, let alone a MOP scale bomb with multiple EFP liners for a warhead. On that kind of scale each of several dozens EFP liners could be bigger then a tank sabot round and going about 2.4km/s... and still have the huge concussive explosion behind the penetration.

[Gaidin]

You questioned the idea of dropping a MOAB in a city, implying that there would be substantial collateral damage to the city which is undesirable. However, the military has already been seen as willing to use nukes, so the idea of using a smaller, less destructive, yet still effective weapon would be desirable. In answer to your question, yes, I really would light that thing up for a fight in the city.

The fact that they built smaller charges up says you're wrong. Get over it.

[Borgholio]

The fact that they built smaller charges up says you're wrong. Get over it.

Oh so I'm wrong that a MOAB would be less destructive than a nuke? I'd love to hear you try to explain that one.

[Gaidin]

The fact that they built smaller charges up says you're wrong. Get over it.

Oh so I'm wrong that a MOAB would be less destructive than a nuke? I'd love to hear you try to explain that one.

You're wrong due to the fact that they're distinctly trying to do something hilariously different than a MOAB in the attack frames you're trying to push. If you were trying to drop a bomb in the middle of the middle of the pacific I'd be game, but we're not. Here we either as much power into as small a space as possible or trying to punch it under their armor before it explodes.

Your solutions, sir, do not solve the problem.

[Borgholio]

Did you even read what I wrote? I never said a MOAB would be more effective than a penetrator. I said it would be more cost effective than building a giant robot and cause less collateral damage than a nuke. Are we clear this time?

[Gaidin]

Did you even read what I wrote? I never said a MOAB would be more effective than a penetrator. I said it would be more cost effective than building a giant robot and cause less collateral damage than a nuke. Are we clear this time?

I don't care about their delivery vehicle. I care about the damn bomb. These are two different concepts. Get your concepts straight. You want to argue about the delivery vehicle, fine. I'll probably even agree with you. But six ways from Sunday, I'm willing to bet you are wrong about the bomb.

[Q99]

It's less costly than a giant robot and less devastating than a nuke, however, it is higher in collateral than a giant robot and not assured a kill for that.

[Sky Captain]

End result is if you build a shaped charge the size of a 2000lb Mk84 bomb it'd be able to go through ~eighteen feet of steel armor no problem at all, and have all that blast energy behind it. Such armor would BTW weigh about four and a half tons per square foot of coverage. Germany built a shaped charge that weighed three tonnes for the Minstral program in WW2, it penetrated 60 feet of concrete in a test and had estimated 24ft performance against steel but was never tested as such for want of a suitable target. That was with crummy WW2 technology. No HMX based explosives or exotic liner material like the now popular molybdenum.

Even if the monsters were made of solid armor plate they'd be swiftly destroyed by weapons like this, let alone a MOP scale bomb with multiple EFP liners for a warhead. On that kind of scale each of several dozens EFP liners could be bigger then a tank sabot round and going about 2.4km/s... and still have the huge concussive explosion behind the penetration.

What kind of material properties for armor would be required to allow something as small as Kaiju to shrug off weapons like those? Would it even be possible at all with armor made out of normal matter?

[Borgholio]

I don't care about their delivery vehicle. I care about the damn bomb. These are two different concepts. Get your concepts straight.

That's quite ironic coming from the moron who can't seem to grasp that I have been talking about comparing a MOAB to a robot fist and NOT a MOAB to a penetrator since my very first fucking post.

You want to argue about the delivery vehicle, fine.

I don't. I want to argue that a high explosive can cause more damage than a metal fist. I don't care about the delivery vehicle.

I'll probably even agree with you.

Not likely. You seem to have a giant dick up your ass about arguing the wrong points and ignoring the ones I brought up in the first place.

But six ways from Sunday, I'm willing to bet you are wrong about the bomb.

Once again, I argued that a MOAB would do more damage to a Kaiju than a robot fist and less damage to a city than a nuke. Once again you failed to explain why I am wrong about either of those ideas.