Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

[Kuja]

Beyond that and a piece of mecha scum I liked it a whole lot.

You mean you haven't heard? An army of those is what's going to save the day at the end of movie 3!

Against a bunch of robot tanks no less.

Actually, it's a combined-arms force: robot tanks, planes, and support units are involved. And the mechs wipe them out in thirty seconds flat while sustaining no losses.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Possibility 2: Neo's now permanently wired into the machines' mainframe systems in some manner, so he was able to shut down the Sentinels; the electrical effect was just their systems overloading and shorting out.

Actually I thought that it was the fact that the "real world" was just another layer of the matrix. The real-real world is yet to be seen.

Precisely.

The natural reaction to Neo utilizing telekenesis and being able to sense the Sentinels is that he is the One in the real world, and thus the real world is still part of the Matrix.

[zombie84]

There is no second Matrix people. The firewall is not a matrix-within-a-matrix, it is the One and the Prophecy. This is the point the end of the film was trying to explain, did you sleep through it?

In order to contain the 1% who do not accept the Matrix (the rebellion) the machines introduce the One and the prophecy--the humans sit around in zion waiting for the One to come, and when he does, he doesnt bring their salvation, he brings their doom. This is the firewall.

If there is another Matrix, what is the point of the Prophecy? what is the point of the One? What is the point of Neo, of the entire story , of the entire film? Absolutly nothing! Its terrible storytelling. The Real World is real and Neo becomes the first One to break the reload cycle. Because he fuses with Smith, he can learn to control the machines in both the Real World as well as the Matrix, thereby becoming the true One (independant of machine control) and actually freeing humanity. Hence, the title of the conclusion--Matrix:Revolutions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What is it with movies and the invincibility of car doors? They will stop some handgun and SMG rounds, not 5.56 from a carbine! Beyond that and a piece of mecha scum I liked it a whole lot.

What 5.56 carbine?

They fired a UMP and a Desert Eagle at it. That was all ever. And a guy like the Merovingian probably doesn't have normal cars. He can probably custom "program" his own vehicles to be resistant to damage.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is the point the end of the film was trying to explain, did you sleep through it?

Screw off. Your analysis isn't sacrosant.

[Hobot]

This is the point the end of the film was trying to explain, did you sleep through it?

Screw off. Your analysis isn't sacrosant.

He does provide very good points in favour of his interpretation though...

[Tsyroc]

There is no second Matrix people. The firewall is not a matrix-within-a-matrix, it is the One and the Prophecy. This is the point the end of the film was trying to explain, did you sleep through it?

In order to contain the 1% who do not accept the Matrix (the rebellion) the machines introduce the One and the prophecy--the humans sit around in zion waiting for the One to come, and when he does, he doesnt bring their salvation, he brings their doom. This is the firewall.

If there is another Matrix, what is the point of the Prophecy? what is the point of the One? What is the point of Neo, of the entire story , of the entire film? Absolutly nothing! Its terrible storytelling. The Real World is real and Neo becomes the first One to break the reload cycle. Because he fuses with Smith, he can learn to control the machines in both the Real World as well as the Matrix, thereby becoming the true One (independant of machine control) and actually freeing humanity. Hence, the title of the conclusion--Matrix:Revolutions.

Certainly you can take it that way but I think it's also possible to take Zion and the "Real World" as another intentional part of the Matrix. The Matrix itself is suppose to fool people so why not have a means of dealing with the really problematic ones without actually dropping them from the Matrix? Dump the problematic 1% into a really crappy "Real World" and then set them up with the objective to fight the machines with some cool pseudo-religous prophecies. They would be so distracted with their shitty lives and struggling to survive that even they wouldn't realize that that world is also fake. I just think redunted systems and safegaurds make logical sense, especially if the AIs had so much trouble with humans before.

That everything in the prophecy and what the Architect said is so circular sounds more like a computer program than the real world. Otherwise you would think that eventually when somone went to build the next Zion they might drop some hints about what has come before and the people wouldn't let themselves get so vulnerable. I just think the constant rebuilding and destruction of Zion in the real world is a vast undertaking of time, effort and resources by both sides. (of course that could be what I'm supposed to think. )

I also think you could argue that Zion is a glitch in the Matrix, just like the other anomolies that end up getting focused in the One. Perhaps the anomolous humans that break from the the normal artificial reality of the Matrix do create Zion on their own but within the computer system. The AIs then work to isolate it like a virus and when it gets to be too much of a problem it's time to reformat.

There are so many possibilites that its sort of maddening. Plus we don't know what little bits were planted to lead us astray. Neo may not have actually had anything to do with stopping the Sentinels, or maybe he is linked to the machines because of Smith, or maybe the Real World is part of the program.

[Gandalf]

For a human mind to perceive the Matrix as real, wouldn't that need some sort of CPU or something like that in the nervous system?
I thought this because it could explain how Smith was able to control people in the real world. As he could find a way to manipulate that CPU.

[Vympel]

Actually, it's a combined-arms force: robot tanks, planes, and support units are involved. And the mechs wipe them out in thirty seconds flat while sustaining no losses.

Well, that would just top off the depths to which the Matrix has fallen- because quite frankly Reloaded sucked big hairy donkey balls.

[zombie84]

I think my theory makes the most sense out of all of them. The matrix-within-a-matrix is absolutly possible, but the main thing to keep in mind is that this is a film series, not a theoretical discussion of machine behavior. Story and character arcs come first, and these get lost when the second Matrix is introduced. The second Matrix revelation would be more appropriate for the ending of a Twilight Zone episode--the humans think they've won but in the last minute it is revealed that they are really in another Matrix. I can see how that is appealing. But the Matrix is not that kind of film; it is about the triumph of human spirit over machines. The only way this could work is if the second Matrix is destroyed as well, and in order for it to have any significance, it would need about another three films to be explored, explained and resolved in any sort of coherant manner. And it still would be a redundant form of storytelling.

And Zion is not built by the humans--it is built by the machines. The human resistance is all about control. The humans think they are free but everything has just been another control system. And its not another Matrix. Its a real-life parallel. The humans have had Zion provided for them by the machines so they will all centralize there. Then the prophecy is given to them so they will remain there. When the One actually shows up and meets the Architect, the Matrix gets reloaded and everything starts over.

Its like a giant real-life recycling bin i guess. All the bad files (the humans) get sent to a large reservoir (Zion). Eventually this gets filled more and more until the One comes along. His job? To hit the "empty recycling bin" button and then restart the system.

No second Matrix is needed because this plot point will suffice.

The twist in the first film is that our world is really the Matrix simulation.
The twist in the second film is that the real-world human resistance and the One are merely a set of controls that cannot be stopped.
The twist in the third one will be that Neo stops them. That his bonding with Smith allows for the Matrix to crash.

No second Matrix is needed.

But, i do see how it is theoretically possible that the so-called Real World is another simulation. "If what is real is what you can touch and smell and taste, then real is simply electrical impulses interpreted by your brain" as Morpheus says in the first film. Indeed, just how can he be sure the Real World is real? He cant! There is no way of knowing. So what, suppose he wakes up somehow, and is revealed to be in yet another real world. He says to himself "my god it was all just another matrix, good thing i'm out". But how can he be sure that that world is real? He cant! So somehow he wakes up again. How he be sure that that world is real? You see what im saying? When you apply rules of logic and perception of reality, you get lost in an maze of logic where an infinte amount of Matrix's could exist and nothing could ever truely be real. Therefore you just have to trust your sense. Our Matrix was discovered to be false because people just didnt feel right, like a dream that they were waiting to wake up from. People can jump around buildings and agents can assimilate people. There is no reason to suggest the Real World is another Matrix, and the storyline which i have been arguing is the obvious direction the Wachowski's are going. Anything else would be bad storytelling.

[Xon]

The mecha was funny looking. Actually it reminded of the scene in the Two Towers when the Easterlings marched past the black gates. You have humans or orcs, and then you have the mechs or big trolls.

Actually it reminded me of the Maverick Kbot from Total Annihilation.

Held the 2 guns in a very similar way, put them away in a very similar way.

The overall shape was also very similar (barring the non-shielded human sitting in the middle, good thing the AI dont use projectile weapons)

[Xon]

One thing I'm wondering about is:

How the hell did a 1/4 of a million people develop the huge underground city, starting from scratch with absolutle zero tools? IE a bunch of people some how escaped the matrix for the 1st time.

Guess what they die of starvation.

Even if you take what the Architect says at face value, then the machines must have:
1) Biult the initial Zion.
2) Repaired it every time they kill off the old inhabitents
3) Biuld another Zion far far away and fill the old Zion in (explosive charges, or just colapse the tunnels leading to it) (The Earth is a big place after all, and those hovercraft dont have much of a range)

Personally I'm going for 1 & 2

Thus they probable have explosive charges rigged into the core machinery of the Zion as a contingency plan.

[Ted C]

My issues with the Matrix...

Zion
Need I go on about the long, pointless rave scene or the gratuitous, uninteresting sex scene? The movie wasted an astonishing amount of time in Zion. There was a collective exclamation of relief from the audience in my theatre when it was over.

Agents
The machines used to be monolithic villains, like the Borg were when they first appeared in Star Trek. The human rebels lived in terror of the Agents, since no human could possibly defeat one in a fight. They were relentless and devious, like the Terminator. In Reloaded, they aren’t nearly as menacing. In fact, they’re downright stupid. In the first movie, to Agents saw what Neo did to Smith and realized they were no match for him, so they retreated. In Reloaded, they charge into combat with him like zombies and get their asses handed to them accordingly. They’ve become the imbecilic Borg drones of Voyager.

The Matrix itself
The machines are no longer a united front they way they were in The Matrix[/b]. Now there are all kinds of “obsolete” AI programs in conflict with one another within the Matrix. Again, the enemy is losing its power to be menacing. The machines used represent an empire of deathless and irresistible evil; now they’re a bunch of squabbling crime lords.

The presence of “free” programs within the Matrix introduces some logic problems that make it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. How have these rogue programs evaded destruction by the Agents that are loyal to the system? Why do they emotional, even sexual, relationships with each other? Why do programs like Persephone and the Merovingian have marital fidelity problems. Persephone’s actions are just baffling for someone who’s supposed to be a face attached to a piece of computer software.

We see far more blatant use of cyberpunk clichés like “back doors” in Reloaded. What used to be a virtually seamless illusion of reality has been stripped away. The sense of peril to the characters went with it.

And then there’s the legendary “old” agents, who seem to have more useful abilities than the “modern” agents. I thought agents had been designed to be consistent with the “reality” of the matrix, so why were these ghost and werewolf agents ever made?

Neo
At the end of The Matrix, Neo held the keys to the kingdom. He could rewrite the code to end fights in innovative ways. He didn’t have to try to kung fu the Agents into submission, he could access their code and rip it to shreds. The laws of physics were rules of the Matrix that the rebels could bend and sometimes break, but Neo could outright ignore them (hence the flying bit at the end).

Why then does he limit himself to just kung-fu-fighting everything that gets in his way? He might not fully understand his capabilities, but just chop-socking his way through every problem (sometimes in interminably long fight scenes) got positively boring.

Example: He can stop hundreds of bullets that are flying at him. If he can stop them, why not reverse their courses and use them to take out the people shooting at him? The fights would have been far more interesting if Neo had used innovative methods to defeat his enemies instead of more of the same old martial arts techniques. Is he utterly lacking in imagination?

Trinity
If Trinity was so upset by Persephone’s demand for a kiss from Neo, why were there no consequences to their relationship when he acquiesced? It was a throw-away dilemma.

The Revelations
Who are we to believe, now? The Architect? What interest does he have in telling the truth? If the One is a product of the normal operation of the Matrix, why does Neo have a body in the “real world”? Why are do the system’s Agents try to keep the One from accomplishing his appointed task by destroying programs (like the Keymaker) that he needs to complete it? Is it really all an elaborate ruse? Does it take this much deception to railroad the One to his appointed task? Why banter with this pompous AI incarnation? Why not at least try ripping his head off instead?

Conclusion
The Matrix Reloaded wasn’t unwatchable, but it’s a major step down in quality from its predecessor. Scott Kurtz said it compares to The Matrix the way Highlander 2 compares Highlander. I don’t think it’s that bad; it’s more like The Phantom Menace compared to the original Star Wars trilogy; entertaining enough, but disappointing on many levels.

At this point, I’m prepared to wait for the DVD to come out before I see the third installment. I’ll save my theatre money for The Return of the King. Quite frankly, I think I’ll enjoy The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Pirates of the Caribbean more than I did The Matrix Reloaded.

[zombie84]

did you see my previous post? The machines built Zion for the humans in order to control them.

[Vympel]

My issues with the Matrix...

Zion
Need I go on about the long, pointless rave scene or the gratuitous, uninteresting sex scene? The movie wasted an astonishing amount of time in Zion. There was a collective exclamation of relief from the audience in my theatre when it was over.

Mine as well. It's quite fresh on my mind as I saw it hours ago. Some people walked out of the cinema at this stage of the movie and didn't come back. I almost wish I went with them, but I would've been losing *all* my money's worth.

Neo
Why then does he limit himself to just kung-fu-fighting everything that gets in his way? He might not fully understand his capabilities, but just chop-socking his way through every problem (sometimes in interminably long fight scenes) got positively boring.

Amen. I thought it was downright strange that I was watching these fight scenes that just went on and on and on and I was bored out of my brain. And I'm sorry, but the punches and kicks looked like pixie slaps.

Example: He can stop hundreds of bullets that are flying at him. If he can stop them, why not reverse their courses and use them to take out the people shooting at him? The fights would have been far more interesting if Neo had used innovative methods to defeat his enemies instead of more of the same old martial arts techniques. Is he utterly lacking in imagination?

Wachowzki bros. sure were.

I pretty much agree with everything you've written. I tend to swear more though.

And did anyone else think Neo's outfit made him look

a: stupid
b: like his superhero name should be the flying kung-fu priest?

Bring back the original outfit please.

[SylasGaunt]

In Reloaded, they charge into combat with him like zombies and get their asses handed to them accordingly. They’ve become the imbecilic Borg drones of Voyager.

They thought their upgrades would be enough.. they were wrong.

The Matrix itself
The machines are no longer a united front they way they were in The Matrix[/b]. Now there are all kinds of “obsolete” AI programs in conflict with one another within the Matrix. Again, the enemy is losing its power to be menacing. The machines used represent an empire of deathless and irresistible evil; now they’re a bunch of squabbling crime lords.

Makes sense to me. YOu get a huge number of sentient AIs together for that long and really think that during that time every program would make the same descisions in the same place? Even the ones who find themselves in the unenviable position of being obsolete?

The presence of “free” programs within the Matrix introduces some logic problems that make it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. How have these rogue programs evaded destruction by the Agents that are loyal to the system?

They aren't normally targeted for destruction. Their choices are either returning to the Source or Exile within the Matrix, and from what we see most of those that choose exile don't seem to do anything overtly disruptive so in all likelyhood the AIs in charge don't give a damn what they do, they have more important things to worry about (like the actively disruptive resistance).

Why do they emotional, even sexual, relationships with each other? Why do programs like Persephone and the Merovingian have marital fidelity problems. Persephone’s actions are just baffling for someone who’s supposed to be a face attached to a piece of computer software.

When they both started out that may not have been the case. However they have had some time (quite a long time if the Merovingian is as old as he claims) of unsupervised personality growth. The personality state we see them in may not be their original.

We see far more blatant use of cyberpunk clichés like “back doors” in Reloaded. What used to be a virtually seamless illusion of reality has been stripped away. The sense of peril to the characters went with it.

If they were the only people who could use those I would agree.. but Smith showed that the Backdoors aren't much safer than the street.. just faster.

And then there’s the legendary “old” agents, who seem to have more useful abilities than the “modern” agents. I thought agents had been designed to be consistent with the “reality” of the matrix, so why were these ghost and werewolf agents ever made?

The Twins ghosting ability is little stranger than an Agent dodging bullets, shattering concrete, or taking over the body of the guy next to you. If they are an old model agent I doubt they ghosted right in front of everybody. The Merovingians vampires on the other hand are just faster and stronger than humans and need a stake to disrupt their code.. certainly much less flashy than an agent, but they can't really stand up to some of the resistance fighters (Like Ghost and Niobe).

A 'modern' agent is fully capable of beating any of the obsolete versions we see (though the twins would be a bit difficult because of their phasing, but they still can't stand up to an agent physically).

[Ted C]

I appreciate that you liked the movie, Sylas, but your apologetics won't change my mind. It seems to me that the writers didn't put much thought or imagination into the story. Maybe they were so wrapped up trying to be "deep" that they forgot to be plausible, imaginative, and entertaining.

[SylasGaunt]

I appreciate that you liked the movie, Sylas, but your apologetics won't change my mind.

Just addressing angles you may have overlooked.

Maybe they were so wrapped up trying to be "deep" that they forgot to be plausible, imaginative, and entertaining.

As you said that's your opinion. I personally find the idea of infallible (Agents wrong about their upgrades being sufficient) Sentient AIs who despite centuries of time and many being rendered obsolete yet who all remain a totally united front (Merovingian etc), and who don't pick up any human traits despite a near constant exposure and need to live among humans far more implausible.

I also find it more implausible that there would never be any other versions of agents as the machines tried to find what worked best.

But that's my opinion not yours.

[SirNitram]

No second Matrix is needed because this plot point will suffice.

Yet this offers no explanation for the four times Neo uses his powers inside the Real World.

1) Dies, comes back.
2) Trinity dies, he brings her back.
3) He 'feels' the Sentinels.
4) He blasts the Sentinels.

[Hobot]

The first two points you mention did not happen in the real world. When Neo and Trinity died, they just died in the Matrix and their brain in the real world told their body they died. They were brought back because their brain could still receive signals (I don't suppose the body shuts down completely and immediately); Neo from Trinity's words and kiss and Trinity from Neo reviving her in the Matrix (after that the Matrix would start sending signals back to Trinity's brain telling her she's alive).

As for your other two points, I think zombie addressed them quite well in his previous posts.

[SirNitram]

The first two points you mention did not happen in the real world. When Neo and Trinity died, they just died in the Matrix and their brain in the real world told their body they died. They were brought back because their brain could still receive signals (I don't suppose the body shuts down completely and immediately); Neo from Trinity's words and kiss and Trinity from Neo reviving her in the Matrix (after that the Matrix would start sending signals back to Trinity's brain telling her she's alive).

As for your other two points, I think zombie addressed them quite well in his previous posts.

So we're supposed to beleive Neo's plugs suddenly became wireless transmittors?

[Joe]

As opposed to ignoring evidence suggesting that Zion is in fact within the real world?

[SirNitram]

As opposed to ignoring evidence suggesting that Zion is in fact within the real world?

Alright, present the evidence that Zion must be the real world, and not just a clever mockup. That's the lovely thing about the Cartesian Nightmare, though.. It's virtually impossible to know for sure. So when events that show, clearly, not all is as it seems, of course one must consider the possibility it's just another layer.

Jeez, this is amusing. People want competent evildoers, but suggest the possibility that their cage is multi-tiered, and they go bonkers.

And finally, I leave you with Morpheus' own words: What is the Matrix? It is the illusion pulled over your eyes to prevent you from seeing the truth.

[Joe]

OK, assume Zion is indeed part of the Matrix. That defeats its purpose; for one, Zion is supposed to be a dumping ground, essentially, for the 0.1 percent of the people inside the Matrix who do not unconsciously accept the program. The point of Zion is to get this anomalous factor out of the Matrix, where it won't cause any trouble. If Zion is just another part of the Matrix, the machines are still left with the problem of dealing with the small minority of humans who won't accept the Matrix program, still within the Matrix. With Zion in the real world, however, this problem is eradicated entirely.

Secondly, if Zion were in the Matrix, there would be no need to destroy it with a huge military force; the delete button would work perfectly fine, and the residents could simply be simultaneously unplugged.

The cage is indeed multi-tiered (Zion might as well be a part of the Matrix, given the fact that it is just another layer of control), but that doesn't change the fact that Zion is in the real world.

[SirNitram]

OK, assume Zion is indeed part of the Matrix. That defeats its purpose; for one, Zion is supposed to be a dumping ground, essentially, for the 0.1 percent of the people inside the Matrix who do not unconsciously accept the program. The point of Zion is to get this anomalous factor out of the Matrix, where it won't cause any trouble. If Zion is just another part of the Matrix, the machines are still left with the problem of dealing with the small minority of humans who won't accept the Matrix program, still within the Matrix. With Zion in the real world, however, this problem is eradicated entirely.

The point of Zion is that it's supposed to give the rebellious souls who don't accept something to do. Illusion or real, it serves both that goal and another, gaining the One and delivering him to the Source.

Secondly, if Zion were in the Matrix, there would be no need to destroy it with a huge military force; the delete button would work perfectly fine, and the residents could simply be simultaneously unplugged.

Except said military force will make sure the One returns to the Source, thus allowing more troubleshooting.

The cage is indeed multi-tiered (Zion might as well be a part of the Matrix, given the fact that it is just another layer of control), but that doesn't change the fact that Zion is in the real world.

But still doesn't deal with the fact The One used his powers in the so-called Real World, and there's no rational explanation(A fucking PLUG becoming a WIRELESS TRANSMITTOR is not rational).