The Imperium vs The Empire

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 02:24pm

WTF?
It still does not dispute my point, those calcs are STUPID, out of context, without any real connection whatsoever.
And there is NO way those calcs can work with each other in a thousand years, Sylasgaunt made a unsupported assumption with the idea that it was blown up at escape velocity.

Don't tell me you seriously believe in 50,000,000 TT broadsides!
Please tell me you really don't....

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 02:29pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:WTF?
It still does not dispute my point, those calcs are STUPID, out of context, without any real connection whatsoever.
And there is NO way those calcs can work with each other in a thousand years, Sylasgaunt made a unsupported assumption with the idea that it was blown up at escape velocity.

Don't tell me you seriously believe in 50,000,000 TT broadsides!
Please tell me you really don't....

What 5056096098543069835064TT calcs?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 02:32pm

The ones that Sylasgaunt are showing, the ones we are disputing over here, the ones that pretty much disagree with the rest of stuf I've found that points to low TT range firepower, the ones that would give a single broadside enough firepower to crack an earth sized planet without breaking a sweat in a more impressive manner than Abbadons planetkiller itself.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-27 02:42pm

*Looks at 50,000,000 TT 'calc'

Falls about laughing

rolls on floor, laughing head off

Re-attaches head

You must be joking*

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 02:45pm

If it's a joke, I did not start it.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 05:38pm

The Necrons and C'Tan have already begun their work of seperating the Warp from the material universe permanently. Psychic powers and travel through the warp soon will not exist.

I think you are being a little premature there

Uhh..... no. the strongest C'Tan is not dead. The Dragon still exists, and is (from all indications) asleep on Mars. With parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus worshiping him as the Machine God

Nightbringer is the most powerful of the C'tan.....

Logic dictates that:
A) The Night Lords did not fragment their planet or blow it like you assume(actual material agrees)
B) They had weapons superior to the rest of the IoM in the 41st millenium
---B.1) Their superior weapons indicates the IoM had much superior technology 10.000 years ago
---B.2) Their weapons where empowered by Chaos powers somehow

B: No they didnt...their ships are the same vessels that were used by all the Space Marines, and they probably had some Preheresy Naval designs as well.

Space Marine chapters today have many many vessels that date back to the Heresy and before, they are not noticiable superior to the vessels of the Navy, they also have newer ships, of the same class, by your logic they should ahve crapper weapons and inferior technology, but they dont,.

As for the Navy, Most of the current Imperial Navy is made up of NEWER designs than the Chaos fleets, curiously enough, they arent crapper, in many ways they are superior,

They have better armour, much more ships equipped with Torpedos, their Battleships have massively powerful long range broadsides, their isnt a single equivalent Traitor vessel save the Planet killer that has a Broadside equal to that of the Retribution class battleship, and I would hate to see the firepower of an Apocalypse or Oberon class.

They also have the various new designs and technologys, such as the Nova cannon, which lots of Imperial ships tend to replace torpedo arrays with. as well as the Firestorms etc which are recent creations.

Chaos also nicked the designs for a destroyer class vessel that was created...recently.

The Inquisition isn't needed to destroy planets, just they tend to order them destroyed, and the exterminatus examples I remember them ordering usually involve virus bombs or cyclotronic torpedoes

Inquisitoral AUTHORITY is usually required for Exterminatus operations in the present Imperium.

Its worth noting that most of the planet fragging that destroys the planet is either done under the orders of the Inquistion, or is performed by rogue elements, such as the Rebel Space marines, and of course the present day Space Marines

As for Chaos "empowering their weapons"

Please!

No mention of this anywhere, infact the only ships that might apply too are the Daemon Posssessed Cruisers that are being released. and with examples of other planet killings by none chaos forces I think its really just not relevant as an avenue without a specific reference to their ships being chaos posssessed.

Especially with them being Night Lords vessels, the Nightlords are not known for their mutations and possessions..indeed the opposite is true.

I am the one who made the rules for those extra types of Nova Cannon shells. And it should be noted they are /not/ official.

Nice one, what were they BTW ? i havent seen them...

In those examples it seems fairly clear that the Imperium's tech isn't moving forward.

No, it seems fairly clear to me, taking all of the evidence into account, such as new ships, new technologys etc, that the technology from the Dark Ages i.e. STC systems is extremely advanced and is still generally beyond the Imperium...so they have further to go.

heck, all the chaos stuff is from the Heresy, has it been improved upon ?

Hell yes!
Remember, the Star Fort is an extremely advanced and powerful Station, it can move through the warp for gods sake,

"The Desolator class Battleship dates back to the very founding of the Imperium and utilises technology long since lost to the Adeptus Mechanicus

And yet somehow, its analogue in the Imperium, the Retribution class, is its equal in manuverebility and speed...last time I checked any way..

Well, to me thats a pretty damn good endorsement of the Imperiums tech improving..

After all, if its LOST then the technology to replace it must be NEW and yet it equals it..pretty good methinks

Most of which probably had either virus bombs or large rocks dropped on them. That is unless you can provide exact quotes (with source and page number) which say otherwise

Nope, In the case of the Word Bearers destruction of planets, for which I will provide a quote "precise geo-nuclear strikes that ripped the planets apart at their core"" They blasted em..

And it was three planets, in the Ultramar system I believe, and it wasnt even the Entire legion...just a section led by the 2nd in command of the Legion.

Umm, as for the Ophidian plant, I think that exploded into an asteroid field after it got hit by a Hexathedral crashing into it...that might have been another planet though.

of course every naval grunt has even heard of the Night Lords incident [no-one expects the inquisition] and knows about the ophidian pacification. [unlikely] and the macharius incidents [but wait, Macharius was not the enemy was he? no! he was the IoM version of Thrawn! Note the "an Enemy" they don't mind doing it to others, but they don't appriciate having it done to them!]

what he said...

plus the Macharian crusade was a wee while back, not so long that you could claim tech loss, but at least a few thousand..

The lasers of the Night Lords' ships focused a blinding lance of pure energy into the planet's core, and with a cataclysmic explosion, the dark planet burst apart.

thats "cataclyismic" not "well, the whole thing just drifted apart a bit"

The tech was mostly lost in the AoS, for every example of decreasing tech there is one of increasing tech. e.g. improving armour etc etc.

Again, what he said. My examples of the battleships and others support this..

After the Heresy we get all the new toys the current chapter get to play with, like Multimeltas and Mk 5 dreadnaughts with their integrated weaponry.

it says with a gigantic explosion the planet burst apart, that doesn't mean it exploded like Alderaan.

Well, if you think about it...its almost exactly like the final sequences of the DS blast.

Big energy blast, followed by a planet blowing up...

Sorry for "bursting" like that, but it seems some people just go "40k = culture" and turn of their brains sometimes

Not at them moment, give us a nice STC Library, or replace the Mechanicus with people who dont worship an Alien stargod, then we'll see about the Culture...

Although the empowered C'tan would certainly be worth using against the Culture.

in some areas, notably ship production, their tech has decreased

Although they have pulled it back somewhat, the Light Cruisers are a very efficent design, using resorces mined by natives on a feral world, they managed to get one built in 11 years using I assume a locally built facility

There is no evidence saying the fragments from the planet did not reach escape velocity.

And since it "blew up" not "drifted apart " or "blew up then reformed".....you get where Im going with this..

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 05:45pm

Well, if you think about it...its almost exactly like the final sequences of the DS blast.

Big energy blast, followed by a planet blowing up...

I don't think so, to me it reminds me more like of the Moo2 stellar converter scene, to a lesser degre, I imagine a bunch of ships burrowing to the core followed by an explosion that splits the planet apart like a melon.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 05:49pm

And since it "blew up" not "drifted apart " or "blew up then reformed".....you get where Im going with this..

Well since the planet hit by the Planet killer didn't explode but was hit so hard that it drowned entire continents in lava and made it act like a giant thruster that made the planet alter orbit and made it fragment from the stress and left a highly dense asteroid field(which if the fragments where blown away at escape velocity would have dissipated the asteroid field within a few years) I severly doubt the ships where able to do it, I much more prefer my calc wich is more in line with the general firepower figures I've done sofar.
1800TT over 40 seconds is nothing to frown at.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 05:57pm

thats "cataclyismic" not "well, the whole thing just drifted apart a bit"

You know, such an explosion that split the planet in several pieces would be by any standard cataclysmic, you're overinterprepting the words here I think.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 05:59pm

Nope, In the case of the Word Bearers destruction of planets, for which I will provide a quote "precise geo-nuclear strikes that ripped the planets apart at their core"" They blasted em..

You did not provide source nor pagenumber, please do.

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-10-27 06:02pm

NecronLord wrote: of course every naval grunt has even heard of the Night Lords incident [no-one expects the inquisition] and knows about the ophidian pacification. [unlikely] and the macharius incidents [but wait, Macharius was not the enemy was he? no! he was the IoM version of Thrawn! Note the "an Enemy" they don't mind doing it to others, but they don't appriciate having it done to them!

So are you saying that Chaos is unable of creating fleets of the claimed necessary size to destroy a planet? I'd say they could create fleets of the deemed necessary size. But if that's the case, why would one more incident be so horrifying if they were already capable of it through fleet bombardment?

Do you have any evidence that points to it being blown apart "Death Star" style?
do you have any evidence that says it was not?

I'm not the one trying to claim it was blown up DS style. They are the ones that have to prove it. I don't have to disprove it.

Not this again!

DaOT ~ approx culture or near equiv tech level, ruled by AI, moved star systems (i'm fairly sure they moved the Sol system also)
AoS ~ Civil war, most tech lost, Warp storms around earth
Great crusade~ EoM unites warring factions on earth, warp storms around earth dissapate EoM builds Imperum, Horus heresy.
Age of the Imperium

The tech was mostly lost in the AoS, for every example of decreasing tech there is one of increasing tech. e.g. improving armour etc etc.

The Examples I gave were of them losing tech within the Age of the IoM. Not them losing DaOT tech during the AoS.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 06:02pm

sorry about the huge post BTW guys..

1800TT over 40 seconds is nothing to frown at.

Its hard to frown in power armour...

I don't think so, to me it reminds me more like of the Moo2 stellar converter scene, to a lesser degre, I imagine a bunch of ships burrowing to the core followed by an explosion that splits the planet apart like a melon.

Id agree, except theres no indication of them having to do more than just focus all their lances on that target, they were just bombarding the planet generally, then focused the lances into one "lance" that popped the planet *shrug"

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 06:03pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Nope, In the case of the Word Bearers destruction of planets, for which I will provide a quote "precise geo-nuclear strikes that ripped the planets apart at their core"" They blasted em..
You did not provide source nor pagenumber, please do.

hold, on I may have to go offline for 30 minutes...it will appear tonight

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-10-27 06:16pm

SAMAS wrote:
White Dwarf #259(August 2001), Index Astartes: Night Lords, page 60 --

The Night Lords' ships orbited Nostramo, Hundreds of weapons trained on the shrouded planet, the rays of the system's dying sun glinting from barrels too numerous to count. A the fabric of space buckled and twisted, disgorging the few craft able to keep pace, the Lances and Mass Drivers of Night Haunter's flagship opened fire upon the planet.

Beam after beam of incandescent light joined the fulisade, all concentrating upon the same point, a wea spon in Nostramo's adamantium crust theorized to be left by the Primarch's initial landing. The lasers of the Night Lords' ships focused a blinding lance of pure energy into the planet's core, and with a cataclysmic explosion, the dark planet burst apart.
Proof enough for you?

Finally! Someone who actually gives their source and an exact quote! Thanks.

Savaven is described as suffering a "continent-sized detonation" (Page 65, Warp Storm), which I think would also classify as a cataclysmic explosion, and we know that it's remains did not reach escape velocity.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 06:33pm

Got it...

" From his personal battlebarge, the "Infidus Imperator" Kor Phaeron directed a full scale invasion of the Calth system, Calths three sister planets were all destroyed, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart at the core. Its once gentle sun was laced with deadly metals and substances that increased its output tenfold "

WD 270(june 2002)
pg 54

I think that it was published earlier though, along with the Nightlords bit,...

And a bit about the PK destruction of Savaven, from the Warmasters POV

Pg 42 WD 239

A Storm of destruction struck Savaven, its atmosphere began to boil away, the ...powerful beam boring through its crust causing earthquakes and tidal waves to sweep across the planets surface. The ice caps began to melt and chains of dormant volcanos erupted...vapourising the seas....with a continent sized detonation, the planets core erupted thrusting the planet out of orbit...with a final death spasm Savaven disintigrated into a billion shards of molten rock which spread across the heavens like glowing dust

Same article

"estimated gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million "

"Uses the planet as a trial for the pker destroying it in less than an hour, killing 14 Billion people "

The Planet killer was built to divert the imperial fleets, the fact that it could blast a planet on its own meant that it was a great way to force large numbers of Imperial ships away from the Blackstone fortreses, allowing their capture by Abaddon.

Otherwise, he would have had to send loads of ships to frag planets, rather than just one...

He actually sacrificed the planet killer so he could get away with the Blackstones

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 06:39pm

white_rabbit wrote: "estimated gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million "

What does that mean? displacement of what?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 06:40pm

I also have other quotes:
'Within [/the Planet Killer's/] central cavity, we could detect a massive power surge, Energy crackled from a number of ports on the hull. Then, with a blast that blotted the sun from our scanners, it opened fire. The energy beam lasted for about a half hour. Emperor knows how they could generate that much energy. We linked in to the planetary surveyors to see what was happening on the surface. That bolt bored its way through miles of the planet's crust, and seared through the mantle beneath. As the attack finished, the magma surged forth through this continent-sized wound, breaking apart Savaven from within. The seas boiled into the skies, the ice caps melted and whole continents sunk beneath the tidal wave. With such an unimaginable release of energy Savaven was blown out of her natural orbit and flipped over on her axis. I guess nobody was alive by then, but if they were they didn't last long. Like a rations pack crushed in your fist, Savaven just crumpled in on herself, then broke up into thousands of fragments. There's just an asteroid field there now, really dense, impossible to navigate. There were forteen billion people living on Savaven. Fourteen billion dead in an hour'

"Soldagen and the other survivors were to suffer traumatic mental breakdowns from what they witnessed and three months later they all took their own lives in a mass suicide. The effect on Imperial morale was devastating. All had heard of Exterminatus with fusion torpedoes, virus bombs, mass drivers, but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thorught that any naval crewman had ever faced."

Warp Storm, page 61:
"The origins of the massive stellar vessel known simply as the Planet Killer are a mystery to Naval authorities. It bears no resemblance to any Imperial design and is assumed to have been constructed within the Eye of Terror by Abaddon's forces, just prior to the Gothic War -- in fact several of the Adeptus Mechanicus doubt whether its construction would have been physicially possible outside of warp space.

Built around a central energy cannon of immeasurable magnitude, the Planet Killer is also studded with numerous long range lances, weapons batteries and torpedo launchers."

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-10-27 06:44pm

Also, it doesn't make sense that the planet exploded after 30 minutes of constant firing, thats like not really plausible with regards to the laws of physics.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 06:52pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
white_rabbit wrote: "estimated gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million "
What does that mean? displacement of what?

Thats the estimated displacement of the planet killer, just thought Id throw that in as a freebie

Also, it doesn't make sense that the planet exploded after 30 minutes of constant firing, thats like not really plausible with regards to the laws of physics.

The ship defys physics, according to the analysis in the WD, its sensor array shouldnt even be able to work in its present state.

Its also crewed by daemons..

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-10-27 08:04pm

white_rabbit wrote:
The Necrons and C'Tan have already begun their work of seperating the Warp from the material universe permanently. Psychic powers and travel through the warp soon will not exist.
I think you are being a little premature there

Actually, no I'm not. Very back of the Necron Codex. Last page, and inside of the back cover. They describe an artificial construct 1.04 AU in diameter. With that they describe Hivefleet Leviathan apparently avoiding the space around this object. Along with this is indications that Astropathic communications in the area are difficult, and that the Warp surrounding the area is unusually quiescent. Also there are mentions of "twisted geometries" (Perhaps the Outsider?)

and a final wording on one letter stating "these C'tan are attempting some dreadful..." being blocked by another letter.

Uhh..... no. the strongest C'Tan is not dead. The Dragon still exists, and is (from all indications) asleep on Mars. With parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus worshiping him as the Machine God
Nightbringer is the most powerful of the C'tan.....

No, he's not actually. He's stated as being the most Ancient and the one inflicting the most misery on the galaxy.

In White Dwarf #270 (US edition), page 90-91. Here's a quote about the Dragon.

"There was a time, before even the birth of Humanity, when the Eldar fought hard to stop the workds of the Necron Gods, who they called the Yngir. One of these, the most powerful of its kind, was exterminating the Eldar. They named it the Void-Dragon, Oblivion itself, a figure of wanton destruction and devastation in Eldar mythology."

And no this is not a quote about Nightbringer. He is called Kaelis Ra - the Destroyer of Light by the Eldar.

And would you please stop combining replies? I'd rather read several seperate replies than one where it's confusing trying to figure out when you're talking to me and when you're not.

As for the Navy, Most of the current Imperial Navy is made up of NEWER designs than the Chaos fleets, curiously enough, they arent crapper, in many ways they are superior,

They have better armour, much more ships equipped with Torpedos, their Battleships have massively powerful long range broadsides, their isnt a single equivalent Traitor vessel save the Planet killer that has a Broadside equal to that of the Retribution class battleship, and I would hate to see the firepower of an Apocalypse or Oberon class.

Chaos ships however have better speed, longer range weapons, and a nastier punch overall. As for broadsides. Gee... Let's see... The Retribution can fire a firepower 12 broadside with 3 lances also. Repulsive class Grand Cruiser has a firepower 14 broadside, and 3 lances. Larger than that of the Retribution. The Carnage class Cruiser can project a firepower 16 broadside. The Slaughter class cruiser can project a firepower 14 broadside with 2 lances. and the Apocalypse BB isn't that impressive. It has 6 lances each side, but if it tries to fire them beyond 30cm, it will literally damage itself, with no guarantee it'll even get through the shields of an enemy battleship. The Oberon is a nice ship good array of weapons. It's advantage is flexability. But it cannot match the firepower of dedicated gunships or launch capacity of dedicated carriers.

They also have the various new designs and technologys, such as the Nova cannon, which lots of Imperial ships tend to replace torpedo arrays with. as well as the Firestorms etc which are recent creations.

The Nova Cannon is hardly new technology. The Nova Cannon has been around for at least 2000 years. Hardly just a new concept. and the Firestorm is stated as being a heavy refit of the Sword class. New designs DO NOT equal new tech. The Acheron class was stated as having New tech devised by analysis of ancient (and potentially alien) vessels. But the only ship of that class went renegade. No more were ever built (at least not by the Imperium). The Slaughter class has a "Scartix" engine coil. But guess what? One went renegade, and blasted the facility that stored the plans for said engine coil. So much for that tech advance. Do you have anything to genuinely back up your claims that ship tech is advancing?

Chaos also nicked the designs for a destroyer class vessel that was created...recently.

The Infidel design was created in the late 40th millenium. It is now the late 41st millenium, making it 1000 years old. I'd hardly call that a recent creation either. And just because it's a new class of ship does not mean it's using new technology.

I am the one who made the rules for those extra types of Nova Cannon shells. And it should be noted they are /not/ official.
Nice one, what were they BTW ? i havent seen them...

The Actual rules? I can't post them here. If you want them privately message me. Shell types are "Grav", "Rift", "doppler", and "E.M.". Thing is, I play Chaos and Necrons, so I never get to use them myself. I also wrote the ship creation formula published in BFG mag #2. (Which is either loved, or loathed with a passion).

In those examples it seems fairly clear that the Imperium's tech isn't moving forward.
No, it seems fairly clear to me, taking all of the evidence into account, such as new ships, new technologys etc, that the technology from the Dark Ages i.e. STC systems is extremely advanced and is still generally beyond the Imperium...so they have further to go.

heck, all the chaos stuff is from the Heresy, has it been improved upon ?

Hell yes!
Remember, the Star Fort is an extremely advanced and powerful Station, it can move through the warp for gods sake.

Uhh.... the Ramilies design has been around for a long time and is barely understood in current times. How is that advancing?

So what if they can build new ships? That doesn't mean the tech those new ships use is any more advanced then ships that are five thousand years old.

"The Desolator class Battleship dates back to the very founding of the Imperium and utilises technology long since lost to the Adeptus Mechanicus
And yet somehow, its analogue in the Imperium, the Retribution class, is its equal in manuverebility and speed...last time I checked any way..

Retribution is slower. The Desolator is the Fastest Battleship in the game (not counting the Void Stalker or the Cairn when on AAF). It can out run virtually all Imperium cruisers (or rather.. catch up to them while they're fleeing

)

Well, to me thats a pretty damn good endorsement of the Imperiums tech improving..

After all, if its LOST then the technology to replace it must be NEW and yet it equals it..pretty good methinks

What the hell kind of twisted logic is that????

Nope, In the case of the Word Bearers destruction of planets, for which I will provide a quote "precise geo-nuclear strikes that ripped the planets apart at their core"" They blasted em..

And it was three planets, in the Ultramar system I believe, and it wasnt even the Entire legion...just a section led by the 2nd in command of the Legion.

Umm, as for the Ophidian plant, I think that exploded into an asteroid field after it got hit by a Hexathedral crashing into it...that might have been another planet though.

And yet you still provide no exact quotes, or sources where you get from them. "I think it said this, and I think it said that" doesn't mean jack. Until you provide genuine quotes (with sourse and page references) you're just blowing hot air.

The tech was mostly lost in the AoS, for every example of decreasing tech there is one of increasing tech. e.g. improving armour etc etc.
Again, what he said. My examples of the battleships and others support this..

No they don't. The Retribution battleships are not exactly a new design. They date from the Imperium's youth.

Although they have pulled it back somewhat, the Light Cruisers are a very efficent design, using resorces mined by natives on a feral world, they managed to get one built in 11 years using I assume a locally built facility

You can't even get your facts straight. It wasn't a light cruiser. It was a Lunar Class Cruiser, the "Lord Daros".

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-10-27 08:36pm

white_rabbit wrote:Got it...

" From his personal battlebarge, the "Infidus Imperator" Kor Phaeron directed a full scale invasion of the Calth system, Calths three sister planets were all destroyed, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart at the core. Its once gentle sun was laced with deadly metals and substances that increased its output tenfold "

WD 270(june 2002)
pg 54

I think that it was published earlier though, along with the Nightlords bit,...

I've got the US WD issue 270 right here, Page 54 is a WHFB battle report.

It's not on page 54 of US issues 269, 271, 272, or 273 either. Anyone with US issues know where this quote is?

And a bit about the PK destruction of Savaven, from the Warmasters POV

Pg 42 WD 239

Those with US white dwarf, it's Issue 238, Page 107.

A Storm of destruction struck Savaven, its atmosphere began to boil away, the ...powerful beam boring through its crust causing earthquakes and tidal waves to sweep across the planets surface. The ice caps began to melt and chains of dormant volcanos erupted...vapourising the seas....with a continent sized detonation, the planets core erupted thrusting the planet out of orbit...with a final death spasm Savaven disintigrated into a billion shards of molten rock which spread across the heavens like glowing dust

Same article

"estimated gross displacement as being in excess of 400 million "

"Uses the planet as a trial for the pker destroying it in less than an hour, killing 14 Billion people "

Another account from the BFG rulebook, page 95.

"As the attack finished, the magma surged forth throughth this continent-sized wound, breaking apart Savaven from within. The seas boiled,into the skies, the ice caps melted, and whole continents sunk beneath the tidal wave. With such an unimaginable release of energy Savaven was blown out of her natural orband and flipped over on her axis. I guess nobody was alive by then, but if they were they didn't last long. Like a rations pack crushed in your fist, Savaven just crumpled in on herself, then broke up into thousands of fragments. There's just an asteroid field there now, really dense, impossible to navigate. There were fourteen billion people living on Savaven. Fourteen billion dead in an hour."

Pretty good indication that while it died violently, it's debris did not reach escape velocity.

The Planet killer was built to divert the imperial fleets, the fact that it could blast a planet on its own meant that it was a great way to force large numbers of Imperial ships away from the Blackstone fortreses, allowing their capture by Abaddon.

Well indications from that history are that Most of the threatened worlds had little or no defense ships anyhow.

Otherwise, he would have had to send loads of ships to frag planets, rather than just one...

It takes multiple ships to virus bomb a planet?

He actually sacrificed the planet killer so he could get away with the Blackstones

Actually, I would say that the blame for the destruction of the Planet Killer falls on the head of Warmaster that Abaddon left the Planet Killer under the command of. Instead of trying to make it back to the Eye, he decided to try to use it to make his own empire, and got it torpedoed to death.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-27 09:04pm

I've got the US WD issue 270 right here, Page 54 is a WHFB battle report.

Well, since Im english, it would be a little difficult for me to give you the US reference really

It takes multiple ships to virus bomb a planet?

It certainly seems to, Istaavn certainly took multiple ships, unless Imperial technology has...improved since them

It was a diversion, after all, he can always build another

And Savaven wasnt undefended, "Several orbital stations" 40k stations tend to be pretty heavily armed..

neither were several other systems, whether it blew their planets or not.

Pretty good indication that while it died violently, it's debris did not reach escape velocity.

either way, it blew up...I can live with it

Actually, I would say that the blame for the destruction of the Planet Killer falls on the head of Warmaster that Abaddon left the Planet Killer under the command of. Instead of trying to make it back to the Eye

Arkham fucked up, but the fact remains, Abaddon placed more value on the Blackstones, which were the objective of the entire Gothic war for the chaos side, that and the way Abaddon used the Planet Killer pretty much lends itself to the idea that the ship was a big "come get me " sign that would force the Imperium to go and kill it, while he snuck in an thieved the Blackstones.

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-10-27 09:41pm

white_rabbit wrote:
I've got the US WD issue 270 right here, Page 54 is a WHFB battle report.
Well, since Im english, it would be a little difficult for me to give you the US reference really

This is one of the things that makes seperate UK/US magazines rather irritating.

It takes multiple ships to virus bomb a planet?
It certainly seems to, Istaavn certainly took multiple ships, unless Imperial technology has...improved since them

It was a diversion, after all, he can always build another
He is supposed to have a new Planet Killer in the upcoming Black Crusade. And I've heard /rumors/ he's going to be able to capture and hold virtually the whole of Segmentum Pacificus.

And Savaven wasnt undefended, "Several orbital stations" 40k stations tend to be pretty heavily armed..
In Game terms, a few Defense Moniters and orbital platforms are not going to stop the Planet Killer, and probably not slow it down by much either. A Space Station isn't that much of a threat to it either.

What I meant is a few Navy cruisers for defense. A pair of Lunars perhaps.

either way, it blew up...I can live with it
ah.

Arkham fucked up, but the fact remains, Abaddon placed more value on the Blackstones, which were the objective of the entire Gothic war for the chaos side, that and the way Abaddon used the Planet Killer pretty much lends itself to the idea that the ship was a big "come get me " sign that would force the Imperium to go and kill it, while he snuck in an thieved the Blackstones.

With the 4 destroying themselves though (Perhaps by Abaddon's command), he no longer has the power to destroy stars with the remaining two (if he indeed has them), only planets, which he could do before with the Planet Killer. While he may have used it as bait, I still wouldn't call the Planet Killer a ship that would just be thrown away.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-10-28 02:03am

Another thing to remember is that for all it's power the PK wasn't designed as a strategic or superweapon. It was meant to act as a terror weapon (and few people wouldn't be terrified with a gun that damn big pointed at them, plus all the other funky stuff that happened when it showed up).

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-10-28 06:42pm

I still wouldn't call the Planet Killer a ship that would just be thrown away

Well, the entire Gothic war seems to have been a set up for the 13t Black Crusade