Practicality of Mechs

[TrailerParkJawa]

I would also like to add that any tall Mechs like in Robotech still need sensors like radar, radios, etc.

These delicate appendages would be prey to sniper teams with something along the lines of the .50 rifles. Something several stories tall would be visible to many troops all in every direction.

Sea Skimmers idea about launching truck based anti-ship missles gives me an idea that you could launch HARM's or other such missles against these guys to knock out their sensors.

Honestly, mecha are nothing more than a childish sci-fi fanboy fetish of becoming superman via technology. It's like Iron Man from the Marvel Comics.

I agree, but isnt fantasy one reason to read comics or watch cartoons? Mechs are terrible ideas in real combat, but watching them blow each other up on Saturday morning can be fun.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

I would also like to add that any tall Mechs like in Robotech still need sensors like radar, radios, etc.

These delicate appendages would be prey to sniper teams with something along the lines of the .50 rifles. Something several stories tall would be visible to many troops all in every direction.

Sea Skimmers idea about launching truck based anti-ship missles gives me an idea that you could launch HARM's or other such missles against these guys to knock out their sensors.

Only if the mechs used active sensors. Though firing at a mech's cockpit with a GAU-8/A would achieve a similar effect.

[Darth Wong]

I should also point out the gross inefficiencies of bipedal locomotion as opposed to wheeled or tracked vehicles. Fuel mileage may sound like a pedestrian concern for a military vehicle, but think of it in terms of weight, bulk, and operational range, and the importance becomes much more clear.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

well, I promised it... finally starting up a couple days late (sorry about that, but life happens you know). Considering the apparent lack of thouroughness in the discussion so far (most posters here seem to be running to dismiss mecha as viable without really thinking -- I have noted a number of fallacious arguments already), I felt the need to make a serious go of this. I hereby present the first installment.

The 'Mecha' Question: an Outline

I. Overview
A. Thesis
B. Definition of Topics
II. Core Technologies
A. Materials
1. Structural (Internal)
2. Armor (External)
B. Mechatronics
1. Actuators
2. Alternative Locomotion
3. Computers & Communications
4. Pilot Interfaces
5. Power
6. Sensors
C. Applicability to Conventional Vehicles
III. Design
A. Size Ranges
1. Man-sized (100kg dry mass or less. Includes 'Iron Man' and BGC type Hardsuits)
2. Light (from 100kg to 1000kg dry mass. Includes BGC K-series Armored Troopers and the ubiquitous 'loader' from 'Aliens')
3. Intermediate (from 1 to 10 metric tonnes. Specimens include most Heavy Gear, BGC Battlemovers etc.)
4. Heavy (from 10 to 100 metric tonnes. Includes most anime mecha, all BattleTech Mech's etc.)
5. Superheavy (from 100 tonnes and up -- think Gunbuster or bigger)
B. General Planforms
1. Bipedal
2. Multipedal
3. Transformable
C. Mission & Environmental influences
IV. Viability in Combat
A. Raw performance comparisons
B. Survival vs. conventional combat vehicles & carried ordnance
C. Survival vs. non-vehicular ordnance (ie man-portable and area-denial weapons)
D. Versatility and mission flexibility
E. Maintenance concerns
F. Cost effectiveness compared to conventional vehicles.
V. General Review, final notes & conclusion



I must ask you all to bear with me, as I cannot post the entire thing at once. this is a subject that to give it proper depth will take awhile (possibly a week or more), thus I have to break it up as per the outline above. I may not follow through in the exact order of the outline, but it will all fall into place in the end, providing we all survive until then

Chapter I the Overview will likely be posted within the next 24 hours... stay tuned.

[Darth Wong]

Try to keep it brief; quite frankly, from the size of your outline and the unnecessarily detailed list of point items, I suspect that most readers are already groaning and deciding they won't want to bother reading it.

[Sea Skimmer]

No point in firing HARM's. If you have the LOS and big truck you'd need to use one, you might as well fire a Kh-35/C801 at it or a bunch of anti tank missiles. The warhead of the HARM and indeed the vast majority of ARM's is all wrong for killing armor. Most spray out a hail of tungsten cubes. These shred light armor and radar but wouldn't work against more then an inch or so.

Simply calling down artillery fire would also work. A Giant mecha would die of a thousand cuts as DPICM and BAT submunitions rained down on it.

Using Copper head with its 19-pound HESH warhead and ability to hit targets the size of a truck window would also be highly effective. Using the Russian guided 240mm mortar round would be just evil.

[Bob The Great]

Try to keep it brief; quite frankly, from the size of your outline and the unnecessarily detailed list of point items, I suspect that most readers are already groaning and deciding they won't want to bother reading it.

On the contrary; I am very interested in hearing about this. I have given some though to this issue myself, and would love to hear an organized opinion from someone else.

Shaka[Zulu] - Looks like a very in-depth outline. Post away.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

It is on the way... gonna go with the Core Technologies section first (Ive always suffered from writers' block when it comes to the opening thesis), but life is intervening again, so it's on a slow cook... will keep you all posted

[Uraniun235]

If you make so much as one reference to anime, Shaka, your paper is garbage. (not counting the stupid-sounding word "mecha" itself)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

My, aren't we critical.

That means at least half of his paper would be worthless, you know.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

If you make so much as one reference to anime, Shaka, your paper is garbage. (not counting the stupid-sounding word "mecha" itself)

hmmm... a challenge eh? so be it -- I wasnt planning on using any of those designs as anything more than artistic inspiration anyway... certainly none of that hokey physics would enter into it. but I have to ask 2 questions:

1) what would you consider an anime reference? (just trying to establish the ground rules here, dont you know)

2) what would you rather have me call them? try to keep it short and simple please...

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think he just hates mecha. Or anime. Or both.

Don't let him get to you.

I mean, how can you write about mechs without mentioning Macross or Gundam?

[Shaka[Zulu]]

probably just mecha... there are plenty of anime series that have no mention of the subject whatsoever... I'm partial to Ranma myself... if somebody were to make a live-action version for TV, it would best any sitcom ever made... they wouldnt even need the 'martial arts' aspect (but I do admit that they would have to give it a good dose of reality).

[neoolong]

I think he just hates mecha. Or anime. Or both.

Don't let him get to you.

I mean, how can you write about mechs without mentioning Macross or Gundam?

I remember seeing a trailer for an anime called Daiguard. The mech in that had to be moved by train in pieces and then assembled before the fight.

There are also many series besides Macross and Gundam that have mechs.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Here's what I would do if we had the capability to produnce 'mechs today:

Two military roles:
1) The ultimate paratrooper. Yes, a 20m tall paratrooper, but still a paratrooper . Can be paradropped much easier than a tank (if you can drop a tank at all) and could drop in a hot LZ better than normal paratroopers.
Specs:
- 20m tall, fast and quick. Reverse-articulated joints for superior maneuvering in rough terrain.
- 2 7.62mm machineguns slung under the cockpit, antipersonnel point-defense.
- 2 .50 M2 machineguns, mounted on "hands". Heavy antivehicle and personnel.
- 2 30mm cannons, mounted on "hands" with HEAT and AP shells.

2) Urban death machine. Would replace tanks as heavy support in urban combat, since tanks just get ripped up in urban warfare anyways. Less susceptable to mines and anti-tank infantry due to difference in profile and vulnerable points in the structure.
Specs:
- 26m tall, slow bruiser. Standard articulation.
- 2 12.7mm MGs under cockpit for anti-personnel.
- 2 MLRSs mounted on shoulders for long-range fire-support.
- 1 120mm cannon mounted on left arm for anti-tank firepower.
- 1 30mm "Chaingun" mounted on right arm for taking out soft vehicles.
- 1 30mm cannon with HEAT and AP shells for multipurpose, mounted on right arm.
- 1 co-axial 5.56mm minigun mounted with the 120mm cannon for additional anti-personnel firepower.

[Raxmei]

Here's what I would do if we had the capability to produnce 'mechs today:

Two military roles:
1) The ultimate paratrooper. Yes, a 20m tall paratrooper, but still a paratrooper . Can be paradropped much easier than a tank (if you can drop a tank at all) and could drop in a hot LZ better than normal paratroopers.
Specs:
- 20m tall, fast and quick. Reverse-articulated joints for superior maneuvering in rough terrain.
- 2 7.62mm machineguns slung under the cockpit, antipersonnel point-defense.
- 2 .50 M2 machineguns, mounted on "hands". Heavy antivehicle and personnel.
- 2 30mm cannons, mounted on "hands" with HEAT and AP shells.

Anything that is 20 meters tall will weigh more than a tank, particularly if you wish to armor it. Additionally, its weaponry is inadequate for the task of destroying tanks.
It is possible to paradrop light vehicles, but not tanks. And certainly not that thing. You do realise that thing'll weigh as much as a small office building, right?

2) Urban death machine. Would replace tanks as heavy support in urban combat, since tanks just get ripped up in urban warfare anyways. Less susceptable to mines and anti-tank infantry due to difference in profile and vulnerable points in the structure.
Specs:
- 26m tall, slow bruiser. Standard articulation.
- 2 12.7mm MGs under cockpit for anti-personnel.
- 2 MLRSs mounted on shoulders for long-range fire-support.
- 1 120mm cannon mounted on left arm for anti-tank firepower.
- 1 30mm "Chaingun" mounted on right arm for taking out soft vehicles.
- 1 30mm cannon with HEAT and AP shells for multipurpose, mounted on right arm.
- 1 co-axial 5.56mm minigun mounted with the 120mm cannon for additional anti-personnel firepower.

These will get ripped up even worse than tanks. Do you have any idea how big a target profile that thing has? It's an rpg magnet. Mounting a tank gun that high on a machine with an unstable bipedal stance would also be a bad idea. Machine gun coverage is probably worse than on tanks, too.

If I had the capability to build mechs today, I would use it to make better tanks.

[omegaLancer]

The problem is the Mech is the same as with tanks, on a modern battle field , heavy armor is being made obselet with man portal anti armor weapons, Tank killing Helio and mobile anti tank weapons..

unlike the Anime, where dozen of missile are fired, and either bounce off the Mech or misses. With invention of fire and forget technology and HEAT rounds Armor is dead meat against prepare well train infantry..

Look at the number of RPG floating around the world, the common USSR, RPG can be found in every third world nation, and brought for as low as 10 USA dollars, and can still take out a APC or knock the thread off a multimillion dollar tank...

More power team weapons can take out the most power tank, ( while more expensive than a RPG the cost of fielding one is still a hell lower than that of a tank) and can be made mobile by placing on a any wheeled vehicle.

And the modern king of the battle field is the Helicopter, with heavy gatling gun and Antitank missile, the appearance of one on the scene would spell the death of any land based armor...

[Pu-239]

You people are thinking too large scale. I am thinking somewhere more of a powered exoskeleton only armored against small arms, probably with M113 style aluminum armor or some better substance like ceramic sandwiched with aluminum alloy.

A personal jetpack or helo with built in weapons would be cool too, but this is going OT.

Is it possible to make a speaker/microphone combo that creates sound exactly out of phase to cancel out small sounds? If so, add this.

This would be used by special forces to carry the weapons to sabatoge, mow down distracted infantry, blow up tanks while avoiding return fire, etc.

The suit will also carry some reactants for an endothermic reaction in an emergency to avoid heat seeking missiles

The advantages of this over a tank is that it has a smaller profile, so it is harder to hit, it is more agile and can take cover behind a hill for example. It can also enter buildings. A problem is that maximum speed and endurance is limited to how much an infantryman can endure having his limbs moved around by the suit. It is also more quiet.

A lightweight motor and powersource is required, perhaps with the discovery of room temp superconducters? if that happens.

[TrailerParkJawa]

No point in firing HARM's. If you have the LOS and big truck you'd need to use one, you might as well fire a Kh-35/ C801 at it or a bunch of anti tank missiles. The warhead of the HARM and indeed the vast majority of ARM's is all wrong for killing armor. Most spray out a hail of tungsten cubes. These shred light armor and radar but wouldn't work against more then an inch or so.

I dont disagree with your assement of Harms. I merely suggested them as a way to target a big mechs sensors and such. I was just pointing how most common weapons in our arsenal would be useful.

Besides, if a mech was rampaging around San Jose and the nearest Truck/ASM was in say Fresno, an F-16 with Harms/Mavericks/etc would be a reasonable first response.

Hell, we could have roving patrols of B-52's carrying one of your super Mig-21 sized missles on call.

But that leds me to another question. Lets say a mech is walking around San Jose and its 50m tall, would other buildings accidently get his by the ASM? Can you tell an ASM to attack THAT target and not the nearby buildings of the same size.
[/quote]

[Pu-239]

Yeah I think the mavericks lock on to heat. They don't use the TV cam's anymore

[Darth Wong]

You people are thinking too large scale. I am thinking somewhere more of a powered exoskeleton only armored against small arms, probably with M113 style aluminum armor or some better substance like ceramic sandwiched with aluminum alloy.

Then why bother with power-assist? You're talking about stormtrooper armour. Power-assist VASTLY increases the complexity, cost, and bulk of the suit, and for what? Do you need power-assisted arms to shoot a gun?

A personal jetpack or helo with built in weapons would be cool too, but this is going OT.

I think I saw that in an old James Bond movie

Is it possible to make a speaker/microphone combo that creates sound exactly out of phase to cancel out small sounds? If so, add this.

This would be used by special forces to carry the weapons to sabatoge, mow down distracted infantry, blow up tanks while avoiding return fire, etc.

The physics of wave acoustics permit that, but only in an enclosed area (eg- they have headphones which will cancel out noise, but you can't cancel out the noise you make while walking around, because wave interference from two non-coincident point sources will be inconsistent).

The suit will also carry some reactants for an endothermic reaction in an emergency to avoid heat seeking missiles

Unless the suit is thermally superconductive, this won't work, even if the reaction can generate the sufficient amount of cooling. Besides, an endothermic reaction doesn't tend to go too fast, and you have to carry these chemicals around. Why not use flares?

The advantages of this over a tank is that it has a smaller profile, so it is harder to hit, it is more agile and can take cover behind a hill for example. It can also enter buildings. A problem is that maximum speed and endurance is limited to how much an infantryman can endure having his limbs moved around by the suit. It is also more quiet.

It is a ridiculously expensive version of an infantryman in good body-armour, with roughly the same capabilities.

[SirNitram]

If you make so much as one reference to anime, Shaka, your paper is garbage. (not counting the stupid-sounding word "mecha" itself)

hmmm... a challenge eh? so be it -- I wasnt planning on using any of those designs as anything more than artistic inspiration anyway... certainly none of that hokey physics would enter into it. but I have to ask 2 questions:

1) what would you consider an anime reference? (just trying to establish the ground rules here, dont you know)

2) what would you rather have me call them? try to keep it short and simple please...

I believe the general request is not to cite anime as a reason for why walkers are good. And yes, I call them 'walkers', for they walk. I lump in the multi-legged in there as well. Incidentally, I point out even in SW, tanks > walkers. The old Juggernaught is easily a match for the much bigger AT-AT, and is something like 3-4 times as fast. The reasons walkers < tanks have been driven into the ground here. The only advantage a walker conveys is intimidation, and that only works if your tech is so great you can build walkers that your opponents can't beat...

[Pu-239]

Then why bother with power-assist? You're talking about stormtrooper armour. Power-assist VASTLY increases the complexity, cost, and bulk of the suit, and for what? Do you need power-assisted arms to shoot a gun?

Power assist would be used to carry heavy weapons. Of course you can use two soldiers but lets say there is a manpower shortage (bit of a stretch)

the ability to carry lots of explosives for sabotage?
infiltrate enemy lines without resupplying?
Suicide missions with a nuke?
Setting up small mortars alone?

Then again all this can be handled with an extra soldier, but let's suppose that the cost problem of making a suit has been eliminated.

Are recoiless rifles obsolete now (I know OT)?

Yeah I'd actually prefer a lightly armored buggy for this purpose. That would'nt work on some terrain though. It could carry more then any powered suit. Going to start a new thread.

Yeah I know I'm making a futile attempt to ressurect dead ideas, but so what?

[neoolong]

To carry heavy weapons why not just use a modified steadi-cam mount. It's fairly agile and it doesn't require power.

Basically think of the smart gun mount in Aliens, it's a similar thing. No need for mecha.

[Admiral Piett]

The problem is the Mech is the same as with tanks, on a modern battle field , heavy armor is being made obselet with man portal anti armor weapons, Tank killing Helio and mobile anti tank weapons..

unlike the Anime, where dozen of missile are fired, and either bounce off the Mech or misses. With invention of fire and forget technology and HEAT rounds Armor is dead meat against prepare well train infantry..

Look at the number of RPG floating around the world, the common USSR, RPG can be found in every third world nation, and brought for as low as 10 USA dollars, and can still take out a APC or knock the thread off a multimillion dollar tank...

More power team weapons can take out the most power tank, ( while more expensive than a RPG the cost of fielding one is still a hell lower than that of a tank) and can be made mobile by placing on a any wheeled vehicle.

And the modern king of the battle field is the Helicopter, with heavy gatling gun and Antitank missile, the appearance of one on the scene would spell the death of any land based armor...

You can armor tanks against at least some antitank missiles.And eventually you could equip them with some weapons effective against helos.
You cannot instead place heavy armor on mechas.
As far as tanks being made obsolete by antitank missiles they have been saying that since the 60's...