Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

[Darth Wong]

I haven't been following this thread (mostly because I'm not too interested in B5 vs SW), but I just thought I'd jump in and leave my $.02.

The Dark Saber, to the best of my knowledge, was based on the DS2 designs & specifications. We are talking about the DS1. There was a significant technological development between the DS1 & the DS2. This is "Death Star 1 vs. The Vorlons". not every Star Wars super-weapon vs the Vorlons.

This kind of misrepresentation of SW is annoying to me. There is no evidence for any significant rate of technological change in the SW galaxy. There is no evidence whatsoever that DS2 incorporates any genuinely new technology. It's bigger and therefore more powerful, and it can aim its beam thanks to an extra emitter. What new technology is required?

Even if the VPK is 52,000m in length, it is still more adavnced because it reduces planets to "ash & meteroid fragments"(B5tech.com) just like the DS1 does.

Do you B5 people routinely cite fan websites as canon evidence? Unless someone's been hiding facts from me, we have never seen a VPK destroy a planet on the show, and we know that Ivanova called for rescue of survivors from a planet after it was attacked by the VPK (and yes, I know, Adam Warlock thinks those were refugees who fled the planet just far enough to be the VPK's next target, and needed air evac from their new poorly chosen home because the starships they used for the first trip ... disappeared <cough cough>).

It is simple. The Death Star 1 takes up geosynchronous orbit over the Vorlon homeworld, like it does to destroy Alderaan. In the 15-30eseconds it takes to for the DS1 to power up the Superlaser, as shown during the battle of Yavin, a Vorlon battlecruiser waiting in hyperspace recieves the DS1's postion and opens a jump point in the middle of the DS1, crippling it at the very least, possibly destroying it.

Good plan. Now explain why none of the younger races, even in the throes of desperation, thought of using this fantastic tactic against the Shadows or Vorlons. Could it be that it doesn't work? Could it be that they can't open a jump point inside solid matter, or in the presence of certain types of energy fields? This reminds me of the "warp bubble torpedo" idea floated a few years ago by rabid Trekkie fanatics.

you also cannot automatically assume the ds would be unaffected just because it produces far higher energy outputs than the yr ships shown, since the extent of this temp reduction ability hasnt been establish, and esp when theres evidence of the shadows themsevles holding back.

Thermodynamics, people! If the SPK absorbed even a millionth of a percent of a Death Star blast as it built up inside the system, it would heat up and and fry itself. Where is this energy supposed to go, hmm? A Shadow planet-killer is simply not that massive. It can suck up all the energy it wants from puny starships like the EA has, but it can't suck up even the tiniest fraction of Death Star power for the simple reason that it has nowhere to put that much juice, so it would cook itself. It has never demonstrated the ability to handle that much juice, it is not big enough to contain it, so how's it supposed to deal with it?

Adam's strange notion that the ability to absorb X joules denotes the ability to absorb trillions upon trillions of times X joules is simply bizarre. By that token, an air conditioner which draws 5000 BTU's of heat energy out of the air (at 70% setting, so it's "holding back") should be able to soak up the energy from a nuclear weapon.

I can only imagine what the rest of this thread is like, if this stuff is typical.

[Mechwolf]

This kind of misrepresentation of SW is annoying to me. There is no evidence for any significant rate of technological change in the SW galaxy. There is no evidence whatsoever that DS2 incorporates any genuinely new technology. It's bigger and therefore more powerful, and it can aim its beam thanks to an extra emitter. What new technology is required?

Official material states as such. DS1 can fire P-K shot once a day. DS2 can fire P-K shot once an hour. Official material attributes this to more advancedment in construction allowing for a larger size & more power for the Superlaser.

Do you B5 people routinely cite fan websites as canon evidence? Unless someone's been hiding facts from me, we have never seen a VPK destroy a planet on the show, and we know that Ivanova called for rescue of survivors from a planet after it was attacked by the VPK

Do you not want me quoting this fan-site when trying to prove that the Empire could defeat the Borg, or any other ST Nation? Besides at no time did I say that B5Tech.com was a canon source.

Good plan. Now explain why none of the younger races, even in the throes of desperation, thought of using this fantastic tactic against the Shadows or Vorlons.

The Minbari did this to an EA Battlegroup in "In The Begining". They used a armed shuttle to lurer the EA group into a predetermined position. With accurate data on their target's position & more precise jump-engine targeting sensors, the Minbari were able to destroy 2 out of 5 ships with this tactic. Reason why younger races are not able to utilize this tactic is because it requires precise data on a target's position as well as precise jump-point targeting sensors. The precise jump-engine targeting sensors are something only the Minbari & other older races have.

[Graeme Dice]

Thermodynamics, people! If the SPK absorbed even a millionth of a percent of a Death Star blast as it built up inside the system, it would heat up and and fry itself. Where is this energy supposed to go, hmm? A Shadow planet-killer is simply not that massive. It can suck up all the energy it wants from puny starships like the EA has, but it can't suck up even the tiniest fraction of Death Star power for the simple reason that it has nowhere to put that much juice, so it would cook itself. It has never demonstrated the ability to handle that much juice, it is not big enough to contain it, so how's it supposed to deal with it?

Adam's strange notion that the ability to absorb X joules denotes the ability to absorb trillions upon trillions of times X joules is simply bizarre. By that token, an air conditioner which draws 5000 BTU's of heat energy out of the air (at 70% setting, so it's "holding back") should be able to soak up the energy from a nuclear weapon.

If they were somehow able to remove that much energy from the environment without destroying themselves in the process then the missiles are entirely wasted. Just have the Death Cloud reduce the temperature of the planet to 1 K. Just as effective, and no material costs for warheads.

I can only imagine what the rest of this thread is like, if this stuff is typical.

This is a very typical defense for B5 fanatics.

[SirNitram]

Tech stagnation argument again? Just time to show it's not as simple as people think.

Most think tech stagnation is binary.. Either you advance quickly or you don't. While the basic technologies used in the Empire are stagnant(Hyperdrive, lightsaber, superlaser, etc.) their application is constantly enhanced.

The DS1 could fire a minimum of 2 PK shots a day(Watch ANH, don't mindlessly recite WEG), and conjecture from Infinities comics indicate it can fire more often, at lower settings.

The TF Droidfighter is a design that we see evolve into the TIE Fighter, which advances to the Defender and Clawcraft.. Major technological advancement, but only refining what exists.

Acclamator to Eclipse SSD anyone?

[adam warlock]

Unless someone's been hiding facts from me, we have never seen a VPK destroy a planet on the show,

we havent seen one being destroyed. but in the case of arkada7, a probe was sent to the area where it resided. no trace of it was found. susan ivanova and lennier said the whole planet was gone, after that lyta said that the vorlons destroyed it.

and we know that Ivanova called for rescue of survivors from a planet after it was attacked by the VPK

she did not say that ships were being sent to those places that were recently attacked..
she called for an evacuation, not a rescue mission..

Adam Warlock thinks those were refugees who fled the planet just far enough to be the VPK's next target, and needed air evac from their new poorly chosen home because the starships they used for the first trip ... disappeared <cough cough>).

we dont know how far enough they fled.
ivanova only clearly stated that the refugee havens were also being targetd.
and that by the time of the second report. 3 refugee stations had already fallen.
theres also little doubt that refugees wouldve gone to stations on the ground, to seek more aid or supplies, they didnt know at the time that the vorlons would also target out those refugee stations they were on.
simply having more starships/atmospheric capable ships around would make evacuation quicker, and easier.. especially in a panic, such as that caused by the vorlon fleet.

Could it be that they can't open a jump point inside solid matter, or in the presence of certain types of energy fields? This reminds me of the "warp bubble torpedo" idea floated a few years ago by rabid Trekkie fanatics.

commentaries put made by jms

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/GEni ... /1460.html

he stated ships in hyperspace can be anywhere, or go anywhere. as for jump points being opened inside objects.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Comp ... 12/56.html

jms answering a question with regards to the collapse of the sun, as shown in "the deconstruction of stars", which came about far earlier than it shouldve have been.

Thermodynamics, people! If the SPK absorbed even a millionth of a percent of a Death Star blast as it built up inside the system, it would heat up and and fry itself. Where is this energy supposed to go, hmm? A Shadow planet-killer is simply not that massive. It can suck up all the energy it wants from puny starships like the EA has, but it can't suck up even the tiniest fraction of Death Star power for the simple reason that it has nowhere to put that much juice, so it would cook itself. It has never demonstrated the ability to handle that much juice, it is not big enough to contain it, so how's it supposed to deal with it?

what i was saying was that its highly dubious that the shadows were using that particular ability of the cloud to its full extent...since the shadows at this stage were still holding back on the yr..
as for where the energy goes.. its entirely possible that the heat can be rapidly converted into particles, or as high frequency rays (or both), and ejected away in hyperspace.. it is within the scope of the shadows overall abilities to do so...

Adam's strange notion that the ability to absorb X joules denotes the ability to absorb trillions upon trillions of times X joules is simply bizarre. By that token, an air conditioner which draws 5000 BTU's of heat energy out of the air (at 70% setting, so it's "holding back") should be able to soak up the energy from a nuclear weapon.

"(at 70% setting, so its "holding back)"??...
with regards to how much the shadows were holding back.. well they did only use two missles out of the thousands that they created and surrounded the fleet with.
again until a limit has been firmly established on this ability, we can never know..

[Master of Ossus]

I don't see anything with regards to JMS's answer that would appear to be relevent to the debate. And the Shadows do not seem to have the abilities that you attribute them with. There is no evidence that they can dump energy into hyperspace, and even if they did, why wouldn't they just cool planets rapidly with their DC instead of bombarding it with missiles, as one poster said? I don't see any evidence that the Shadows are as advanced as you make them out to be, and I furthermore don't see any evidence that the ability you speak of is even possible. Why can't all Shadow ships do this when they are fired on? Why didn't the Death Cloud prevent the Victory from destroying it in A Call to Arms, if the Death Cloud could absorb so much energy, so fast? This ability is clearly either impossible or beyond the abilities of the SPK.

[Crown]

Anywho, about the Eye; who has the technomage books? If anyone could please read again the reference wher Ulkesh said to Galen 'Like will recognise like'. Now here is the clincher, where was this conversation taking place..? I have loaned my copy out, however IIRC was it not in the Za'Ha'Dum system its self?

So much for the Eye's uber ability. And before anyone tries to say that it was busy doing something else, I will just like to say too busy to notice that a Vorlon ship, their arch enemies, was in close proximity to their home?

[Durandal]

we havent seen one being destroyed. but in the case of arkada7, a probe was sent to the area where it resided. no trace of it was found. susan ivanova and lennier said the whole planet was gone, after that lyta said that the vorlons destroyed it.

Hiroshima was "gone" and "destroyed," yet the mass of the city wasn't accelerated to escape velocity. Provide evidence that the process used by the Vorlon Planet Killer is the same as what the Death Star does and not something similar to a simple Base Delta Zero operation.

she did not say that ships were being sent to those places that were recently attacked..

If the Vorlon Planet Killer was as thorough as you've made it out to be, there would be no survivors. Don't you remember that the Vorlons were trying to eliminate anything with even the most remote contact with the Shadows? Surely this would include escaping ships.

she called for an evacuation, not a rescue mission..

No, she sent aid to the survivors of the attack. Why would they need aid if they had fully functional starships to escape with?

we dont know how far enough they fled.

Because they didn't flee. There's no evidence that they did. They simply survived an attack on the surface of the planet. There's no reason for the Vorlons to reduce the planet to an asteroid field if their only objective is to destroy anything influenced by the Shadows.

ivanova only clearly stated that the refugee havens were also being targetd.

Let's put this into perspective. Any refugee from a Vorlon attack would have to have his own starship, because according to you, the Vorlons completely destroyed the planet. Why would refugee havens need any assistance in evacuation procedures if everyone had their own ships? Just get up and go.

and that by the time of the second report. 3 refugee stations had already fallen.

Indicating that survivors had to be airlifted from the surface of the planets which had already been attacked. That's the only way to explain the refugee congestion.

theres also little doubt that refugees wouldve gone to stations on the ground, to seek more aid or supplies, they didnt know at the time that the vorlons would also target out those refugee stations they were on.
simply having more starships/atmospheric capable ships around would make evacuation quicker, and easier.. especially in a panic, such as that caused by the vorlon fleet.

There would be no refugee stations on the ground because the surface was devastated by the attack.

commentaries put made by jms

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/GEni ... /1460.html

This is what he says:

Except that most combat of that nature would be to protect something, usually in close proximity, such as a colony or planet. Also, bear in mind
that a ship or convoy of ships in hyperspace can be anywhere, can go anywhere. Once they exit hyperspace, particularly if they have to travel any real
distance, are more vulnerable because they're caught having to operate at sub-light speeds. So if you're going to hit them, best to wait until they're out of hyperspace, which they have to leave sooner or later because part of warfare is hitting targets...and most targets of real value are outside hyperspace. (Which is why carriers, capable of making their own jump points, are of greatest strategic value.)

he stated ships in hyperspace can be anywhere, or go anywhere. as for jump points being opened inside objects.

He's referring to locations, not solid objects. When I say that the SR-71 can be anywhere on the planet in under a day, I don't mean solid objects.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Comp ... 12/56.html

jms answering a question with regards to the collapse of the sun, as shown in "the deconstruction of stars", which came about far earlier than it shouldve have been.

JMS says:

And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

Only you could take a "what if" and interpret it as absolute proof of ability.

what i was saying was that its highly dubious that the shadows were using that particular ability of the cloud to its full extent...since the shadows at this stage were still holding back on the yr..

Absolutely no evidence for this assertion. Lyta made it clear that the Shadows and Vorlons were both extremely pissed because the Younger Races destroyed several of their ships with low yield nuclear weapons. How many times have you held back when you were pissed?

as for where the energy goes.. its entirely possible that the heat can be rapidly converted into particles, or as high frequency rays (or both), and ejected away in hyperspace.. it is within the scope of the shadows overall abilities to do so...

What do you think heat exists as, if not particles? Magic? Heat exists in the form of photons. There is no evidence that the Shadows can arbitrarily redirect particles into hyperspace.

"(at 70% setting, so its "holding back)"??...
with regards to how much the shadows were holding back.. well they did only use two missles out of the thousands that they created and surrounded the fleet with.

Why would they use a jackhammer to do a thumbtack's job? All they needed was one missile, and their goal was established to be to cause conflict. You can't cause conflict if you vaporize everyone! When it was established that the others in the fleet would die trying to protect the White Star, they had to take a different approach. They didn't want everyone unifying. Also, they do have a finite number of missiles with which to bombard the planet.

again until a limit has been firmly established on this ability, we can never know..

But you're saying that you do know! You're saying that the Shadow Planet Killer's energy dissipation rate must exceed the Death Star's with absolutely no evidence! All we can say it is capable of is draining the energy from a small starship at a rate which exceeds that ship's reactor. That does not equate to being able to drain energy from a reactor which operates using completely different principles and faster-than-light physics, with power output exceeding that of a solar body by several orders of magnitude.

So, by how much does the dissipation rate of the Shadows exceed the energy generation capabilities of the Death Star? A Watt? A hundred? What does it do with all that energy?

[Darth Wong]

And the Shadows do not seem to have the abilities that you attribute them with. There is no evidence that they can dump energy into hyperspace, and even if they did, why wouldn't they just cool planets rapidly with their DC instead of bombarding it with missiles, as one poster said? I don't see any evidence that the Shadows are as advanced as you make them out to be, and I furthermore don't see any evidence that the ability you speak of is even possible. Why can't all Shadow ships do this when they are fired on? Why didn't the Death Cloud prevent the Victory from destroying it in A Call to Arms, if the Death Cloud could absorb so much energy, so fast? This ability is clearly either impossible or beyond the abilities of the SPK.

Shhhhh ... don't tell Adam about Occam's Razor. It'll freak him out

[Doomriser]

Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

The problem is the title of the thread. I only skimmed the responses here after the second page, so I might have missed it but the first Death Star, according to Saxton suggests a full day to refuel the superlaser. You are free to nitpick at this if you read this attached URL, as he is talking about power levels. But this is the DS 1, not DS 2 as the Thread Starter stated.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html

-Jack "eager to eat" Lain.

OTOH Tarkin mentions how 'This will be a day to be remembered...It has seen the end of the Jedi(?) and now it will see the end of the Rebellion.' (paraphrased since I don't have the exact quote at this moment.) Considering that Obi-Wan was killed and the Falcon escaped shortly after the destruction of Alderaan, and the DS was getting in position to blow up Yavin, it could fire twice in one day.

[Master of Ossus]

OTOH Tarkin mentions how 'This will be a day to be remembered...It has seen the end of the Jedi(?) and now it will see the end of the Rebellion.' (paraphrased since I don't have the exact quote at this moment.) Considering that Obi-Wan was killed and the Falcon escaped shortly after the destruction of Alderaan, and the DS was getting in position to blow up Yavin, it could fire twice in one day.

The quote is: "This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of the Republic [in reference to the destruction of the Senate and the granting of direct control to the regional governors], it will soon see the end of the Rebellion." Tarkin told them that the Senate was destroyed even BEFORE Alderaan was. It was a single day, at the most.

[Durandal]

It was Vader who you're quoting, and he referred to seeing the end of Kenobi and the Rebellion.

[adam warlock]

I don't see anything with regards to JMS's answer that would appear to be relevent to the debate.

that was with regards to whether or not jump points can be opened within objects.

and heres another quote

Subject:ATTN JMS: Jumppoint Question
From: Jms at B5
Date: 11/10/1995 09:18 AM
Forum: Usenet

Usually detectors in the ships prevent them from being formed on top of something vital (though
sometimes you want to do that as a weapon)...and we have seen other POV shots of the gate opening,
including one from the back of the jump gate toward the oncoming ships (I think it was in "All
Alone").

jms

Detectors, within b5 ships, prevent the opening of jump points on top of anything vital...and that sometimes this can be considered as a weapon..

And the Shadows do not seem to have the abilities that you attribute them with.

they can use hyperspace
and further they created technomages with energy/matter conversion capabilities.. making armour/weapons out of energy...

There is no evidence that they can dump energy into hyperspace

but it is within their capabilities.

and even if they did, why wouldn't they just cool planets rapidly with their DC instead of bombarding it with missiles, as one poster said?

or that this capability is limited to the distance at which the target object is from the cloud surface... and that to cool the planet it must cool the core, which may be too far away from the cloud layer and is blocked by kms of solid&molten planetary matter.

hence the use of burrowing missles.

i suppose next question would be.. why not use hyperspace phasing to 1) put the portions of the cloud near or at core, assuming it can handle that much energy and 2) to put missles within the planet near, or inside, the core
1) the heat/energy drain capability may not work with the cloud stuck in matter. 2) missles may not work when its phased into a solid.

I don't see any evidence that the Shadows are as advanced as you make them out to be, and I furthermore don't see any evidence that the ability you speak of is even possible.

what abilities..the phasing in within objects from hyperspace?.. energy/matter conversion?

Why didn't the Death Cloud prevent the Victory from destroying it in A Call to Arms, if the Death Cloud could absorb so much energy, so fast?

the death cloud in acta was being used by the drakh, they obviously didnt know how to use it as well as the shadows (or even make it as well).. otherwise they wouldve at least activated the energy draining/heat absorbing capability anytime during the battle...as the shadows did in corianna... the fact that deathcloud wasnt doing any energy draining of the sort, at any stage, points to the drakhs relative incompentence in its use (compared to the shadows)

[Graeme Dice]

we havent seen one being destroyed. but in the case of arkada7, a probe was sent to the area where it resided. no trace of it was found. susan ivanova and lennier said the whole planet was gone, after that lyta said that the vorlons destroyed it.

Quotes please.

she did not say that ships were being sent to those places that were recently attacked..
she called for an evacuation, not a rescue mission..

Quotes please.

commentaries put made by jms

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/GEni ... /1460.html

he stated ships in hyperspace can be anywhere, or go anywhere. as for jump points being opened inside objects.

This has absolutely nothing to do with opening jump points in objects, it deals with strategic mobility.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Comp ... 12/56.html

jms answering a question with regards to the collapse of the sun, as shown in "the deconstruction of stars", which came about far earlier than it shouldve have been.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Death Star is as easy a target to track as a sun that has remained in the centre of a solar system for several billion years?

what i was saying was that its highly dubious that the shadows were using that particular ability of the cloud to its full extent...since the shadows at this stage were still holding back on the yr..
as for where the energy goes.. its entirely possible that the heat can be rapidly converted into particles, or as high frequency rays (or both), and ejected away in hyperspace.. it is within the scope of the shadows overall abilities to do so...

So they have to violate the second law of thermodynamics on a massive scale to make it work. That's ridiculous in the extreme.

[Graeme Dice]

that was with regards to whether or not jump points can be opened within objects.

No, it was in regards to the strategic mobility of ships in hyperspace and the possibility that jump points might have been opened in Sol by super-advanced humans.

and heres another quote

Subject:ATTN JMS: Jumppoint Question
From: Jms at B5
Date: 11/10/1995 09:18 AM
Forum: Usenet

Usually detectors in the ships prevent them from being formed on top of something vital (though
sometimes you want to do that as a weapon)...and we have seen other POV shots of the gate opening,
including one from the back of the jump gate toward the oncoming ships (I think it was in "All
Alone").

jms

Detectors, within b5 ships, prevent the opening of jump points on top of anything vital...and that sometimes this can be considered as a weapon..

If it was such a powerful weapon then the younger races and the first ones would use them instead of their primary weapons.

There is no evidence that they can dump energy into hyperspace

but it is within their capabilities.

Really? Then where's the evidence? You claim that it is within their capabilities, I want evidence that this is true.

or that this capability is limited to the distance at which the target object is from the cloud surface... and that to cool the planet it must cool the core, which may be too far away from the cloud layer and is blocked by kms of solid&molten planetary matter.

Thank you for admitting that the energy draining of the Death Cloud is not capable of removing the enrgy from the Death Star faster than its reactor can produce it. In case you didn't know, they would have to be able to fly the Death Cloud into a star and absorb all of its energy to accomplish that.

i suppose next question would be.. why not use hyperspace phasing to 1) put the portions of the cloud near or at core, assuming it can handle that much energy and 2) to put missles within the planet near, or inside, the core
1) the heat/energy drain capability may not work with the cloud stuck in matter. 2) missles may not work when its phased into a solid.

No, the next question would be: "Why do you pretend to understand thermodynamics when it is obvious that you have no knowledge of it?"

what abilities..the phasing in within objects from hyperspace?.. energy/matter conversion?

Both of these abilities.

[adam warlock]

So much for the Eye's uber ability. And before anyone tries to say that it was busy doing something else, I will just like to say too busy to notice that a Vorlon ship, their arch enemies, was in close proximity to their home?

perhaps its the fact thats its a vorlon ship, and that it has a vorlon aboard, that made it capable of being undetected by the eye.

we know the vorlons had plenty of experience, and dealings, with shadows.. its likely that they can overcome/counter the eyes detection..
but if i read correctly. during this time the eye was disabled by galen, which enabled sheridens whitestar to crash into the shadow base.

we do know that the range of the eye can span lightyears, as shown in the episode "walkabout".

Hiroshima was "gone" and "destroyed," yet the mass of the city wasn't accelerated to escape velocity. Provide evidence that the process used by the Vorlon Planet Killer is the same as what the Death Star does and not something similar to a simple Base Delta Zero operation.

you cannot say a whole planet is gone, when its still there, or still recognizable as a planet..
hiroshima may have been described as gone because of its obliteration (that it was made unrecognizable).

you cant even say that when a large portion of is still present, at the very least that condition wouldve been included in ivanovas brief to the assembled personel, instead of saying that the planet was gone.

If the Vorlon Planet Killer was as thorough as you've made it out to be, there would be no survivors. Don't you remember that the Vorlons were trying to eliminate anything with even the most remote contact with the Shadows? Surely this would include escaping ships.

vorlons not thorough?.. they did go after the refugees, on their safe havens, didnt they?.
and ships couldve been 100,000km away from the planet upon the arrival of the vorlons, they still could be classed as having just escaped, and could still witness, and report on, the planetary wide destruction.

No, she sent aid to the survivors of the attack. Why would they need aid if they had fully functional starships to escape with?

she did not say that the ships were going to be sent to those planets that have been recently attacked.
she said that refugee stations were being targeted, that they lost 3 of them already, and that the list of stations will be changed, and then called for available ships to help with the evacuation.
and as i said already.. more ships would allow for quicker evacuation, even though the refugees may have sufficient ships to handle the numbers...

There's no reason for the Vorlons to reduce the planet to an asteroid field if their only objective is to destroy anything influenced by the Shadows.

anything influenced by the shadows including shadow ships, or/and the pilots within them, themselves.
we do know that the shadows bury their ships deep into the ground.
one way of exposing, and destroying them, all at once is to shatter the planet.

Why would refugee havens need any assistance in evacuation procedures if everyone had their own ships? Just get up and go.

as i was saying earlier.. having more ships around makes the evacuation process quicker, and easier, and counter problems associated with panic.. esp since they didnt know that the vorlons would be thorough enough to also start targeting the refugee havens.

Indicating that survivors had to be airlifted from the surface of the planets which had already been attacked. That's the only way to explain the refugee congestion.

there was already a refugee congestion after the first reported attack on ventradi iii.

There would be no refugee stations on the ground because the surface was devastated by the attack.

ON the safe havens before they were attacked..

He's referring to locations, not solid objects. When I say that the SR-71 can be anywhere on the planet in under a day, I don't mean solid objects.

you said anywhere on the planet.. so yes it can be anywhere on the planet..

Only you could take a "what if" and interpret it as absolute proof of ability.

the intent on jump points being able to form within objects was clear.. the actual "what if" was with regards to the actual question of poster on why sol went nova far earlier than its predicted to be...
jms responded with what if jump points interfered with it.

Absolutely no evidence for this assertion. Lyta made it clear that the Shadows and Vorlons were both extremely pissed because the Younger Races destroyed several of their ships with low yield nuclear weapons. How many times have you held back when you were pissed?

first.. before the nukes were detonated the vorlons & shadows ignored the yr race completely.. they didnt start attacking the yr straight away.
and secondly.. why didnt the shadows use all the missles their planet killer manifested and surrounded sheridens fleet with. instead they only used two.

as for your above statement, its like saying that no one would hold back in a situation where one got punched and has the ability to punch back, and outright kill, the puncher... truth is some people will hold back.
though its true the vorlons have been killing a lot, but only those influenced by the shadows, likewise the shadows were killing those influenced by the vorlons..
in sheridens fleet you have a mixture of those being influenced by the vorlons, and those being influenced, or have the potential to be influenced, by the shadows..
if anything the vorlons & shadows were like parents, or guardians, of the younger race, each with a strong preference to those they directly influenced.

as for the bomb scenes..
1st scene does show some shadow ship fragments, though its unclear whether or not these came from a fighter, or scout, or battleship, 2nd scene shows no ships destroyed, vorlons ships emerging apparently unscathed, 3rd scene with shadows again, no ships were destroyed.

What do you think heat exists as, if not particles? Magic? Heat exists in the form of photons. There is no evidence that the Shadows can arbitrarily redirect particles into hyperspace.

im well aware of of heat/energy being in the form of photons of certain frequencies. what im saying
they have the ability to create those who can convert energy into matter.. i.e technomages.

Why would they use a jackhammer to do a thumbtack's job? All they needed was one missile, and their goal was established to be to cause conflict. You can't cause conflict if you vaporize everyone! When it was established that the others in the fleet would die trying to protect the White Star, they had to take a different approach. They didn't want everyone unifying.

thats what i have been trying saying above...
the shadows here were holding back, i.e. they didnt want to kill everyone.. they only wanted to kill those who had unified the younger races against them.
and although the heat/energy drain at the showed setting would *eventually* kill everyone in sheridens fleet, that is not actually what they intended to do.

But you're saying that you do know! You're saying that the Shadow Planet Killer's energy dissipation rate must exceed the Death Star's with absolutely no evidence! All we can say it is capable of is draining the energy from a small starship at a rate which exceeds that ship's reactor. That does not equate to being able to drain energy from a reactor which operates using completely different principles and faster-than-light physics, with power output exceeding that of a solar body by several orders of magnitude.

all im saying is that we cannot make a firm judgement given that the shadows held back against the yr, in this particular scene where the energy/drain was being used.

[Master of Ossus]

The Vorlons have shown no ability to hide from the Shadows. The eye should have been able to see the Vorlon ship. Shadows have had no difficulty detecting White Stars, and those were built with Vorlon technology. Kosh could not hide from the Shadows, and the only reason their two great fleets did not see direct combat before they did was because they were not really interested in fighting each other until the other sides' supporters had been wiped out.

The reason Sheridan was able to crash the White Star into the planet was not because the Eye was disabled, but rather because Sheridan's ship was programmed to follow that attack plan once he signaled it. The Eye can only affect living people, and not starships.

If the VPK actually did destroy the entire planet, why did Ivonova ask for atmospheric shuttles? The Shadows "destroyed" a planet, but we can clearly see the planet still existed, it just was not supporting any life forms. Clearly the definition of "destroyed" is different in SW than it is in B5. Further, if the Vorlons were so thorough, how did they allow people to escape? Stopping all escaping people is well within the range of SW capability. The inability of one of the most powerful races in existence to do so indicates that B5 ships in general are not as good at intercepting one another as ships in SW, in which a single capital ship can stop all outgoing ships without a single escapee. Also, a survivor of the World Trade Center attacks is not a person who was in New York at the time, it is a person who was in one of the buildings when the plane hit, and it MIGHT be extended to people who were in the WTC at the time of the attacks. It clearly does not refer to people who were near the Hudson, or people who were able to see one of the planes hit.

[Durandal]

that was with regards to whether or not jump points can be opened within objects.

No, it referred to mobility. I see you've ignored my SR-71 analogy.

and heres another quote

Subject:ATTN JMS: Jumppoint Question
From: Jms at B5
Date: 11/10/1995 09:18 AM
Forum: Usenet

Usually detectors in the ships prevent them from being formed on top of something vital (though
sometimes you want to do that as a weapon)...and we have seen other POV shots of the gate opening,
including one from the back of the jump gate toward the oncoming ships (I think it was in "All
Alone").

jms

Detectors, within b5 ships, prevent the opening of jump points on top of anything vital...and that sometimes this can be considered as a weapon..

So, why was this marvelous tactic never used against the Shadows? The White Stars can open jump points wherever they wish, so you'd think that they'd be perfect candidates for such a maneuver.

Furthermore, how does "anything vital" become "solid objects and imaginary masses"? Furthermore, he says "on top of," not "in."

they can use hyperspace
and further they created technomages with energy/matter conversion capabilities.. making armour/weapons out of energy...

Evidence? The younger races can use hyperspace, too.

but it is within their capabilities.

How did you come to that conclusion? What is the maximum extent of their "abilities"? How did you quantify it?

or that this capability is limited to the distance at which the target object is from the cloud surface... and that to cool the planet it must cool the core, which may be too far away from the cloud layer and is blocked by kms of solid&molten planetary matter.

Maybe you're just making shit up and ignoring evidence which contradicts you.

hence the use of burrowing missles.

i suppose next question would be.. why not use hyperspace phasing to 1) put the portions of the cloud near or at core, assuming it can handle that much energy and 2) to put missles within the planet near, or inside, the core

Because they don't have the abilities you've ascribed to them.

1) the heat/energy drain capability may not work with the cloud stuck in matter. 2) missles may not work when its phased into a solid.

what abilities..the phasing in within objects from hyperspace?.. energy/matter conversion?

Either. B5Wars makes it clear that it's more difficult to hit phased Shadow vessels, but they can still be hit.


Or, how about this quote, which completely destroys your analysis of their abilities, which you conveniently left out?

If it ends up in the same hex as the solid object, it is forcibly thrust into hyperspace (or normal space if it is already in hyperspace) with such force as to destroy itself without damaging or affecting the object it appeared within.

So, you took the phasing ability from B5Wars and either didn't read the entire section on it, or you simply ignored the rest, hoping that no one else owned or had access to the rulebooks so you could pump this ability up all you wanted. Are all B5ers this dishonest?

the death cloud in acta was being used by the drakh, they obviously didnt know how to use it as well as the shadows (or even make it as well).. otherwise they wouldve at least activated the energy draining/heat absorbing capability anytime during the battle...as the shadows did in corianna... the fact that deathcloud wasnt doing any energy draining of the sort, at any stage, points to the drakhs relative incompentence in its use (compared to the shadows)

So, the Drakh knew exactly how to pilot the Death Cloud and how to use it, but they couldn't figure out which switch to flip for "Energy Drain"? Do you have any idea how pathetic you look? Perhaps the Death Cloud simply couldn't drain the energy being pumped into it by the Excalibur.

[adam warlock]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by adam warlock:
we havent seen one being destroyed. but in the case of arkada7, a probe was sent to the area where it resided. no trace of it was found. susan ivanova and lennier said the whole planet was gone, after that lyta said that the vorlons destroyed it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quotes please.

exchange between Ivanova and C&C (still on the whitestar) just after marcus and ivanova got back from discovering the vorlon fleet

Ivanova: Ivanova to c&c.
C&C: C&C online
Ivanova: W'ere coming in, find Lyta Alexander, i need to see her as soon as possible.
C&C: Confirmed. Anything else?
Ivanova: Yes i want you to RUN a PROBE on all transmissions, from sector..
Marcus: ...70 by 10 by 53..
ivanova: Did you get that?
C&C: Got it. What are we looking for?
Ivanova: I dont know.. w'ill know it when we find it..

now lets look at ivanova's contributions to the exchange, at the end of the episode.

Marcus: ...We tried to track them. But we lost them at around sector 70..
Delenn: Theres a shadow base not far from there.
Ivanova: Exactly! so as soon we got back i had C&C MONITOR that area for any transmissions, ANYTHING UNSUAL. The shadow base was located on a planet called arkada7. Its not there anymore.
Lennier: The base?
lyta: No! The planet! They destroyed...They destroyed an entire planet!.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
she did not say that ships were being sent to those places that were recently attacked..
she called for an evacuation, not a rescue mission..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quotes please.

second report from ivanova in "falling towards apothesis".

"This is a Command and Control update. The safe haven for refugees on Tizino Prime is no longer responding. We believe they may have fallen to the Vorlon advance, but we can't be sure for another--I guess--ten, twelve hours? Before they attack, the Vorlons blanket all frequencies so no reports can get out. There have been some changes to the list of refugee stations. We'll have that information for you shortly--we've lost three of them. All the governments in sector 57 have declared a state of interplanetary emergency..." Reports coming in from survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We're in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground. We'll rebroadcast this message in twenty standard minutes."

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Death Star is as easy a target to track as a sun that has remained in the centre of a solar system for several billion years?

but it can be targeted..
esp with ships that phase in and out of hyperspace while moving at speed, and that can also go at speeds in excess of 0.1% of that of light.

No, it was in regards to the strategic mobility of ships in hyperspace and the possibility that jump points might have been opened in Sol by super-advanced humans.

super advanced humans that have perhaps reached near vorlon level tech.

If it was such a powerful weapon then the younger races and the first ones would use them instead of their primary weapons.

because it would most likely severely damage, if not destroy, the ship performing the manuver.
but against something as big and as powerful as a deathstar.. better to sacrifice a few ships with this approach rather than a frontal one.

In case you didn't know, they would have to be able to fly the Death Cloud into a star and absorb all of its energy to accomplish that.

since when did the deathstar have a diameter comparable with that of a star.

No, the next question would be: "Why do you pretend to understand thermodynamics when it is obvious that you have no knowledge of it?"

since when does did the process of phasing in to, a

[Durandal]

you cannot say a whole planet is gone, when its still there, or still recognizable as a planet..

Why not? Entire cities have been declared as "gone," yet do we mean they've been accelerated to escape velocity? How do we know that the Vorlons didn't achieve the required energy, but managed to reduce the planet to a giant blob of fragments still gravitationally bound together?

hiroshima may have been described as gone because of its obliteration (that it was made unrecognizable).

And the planet may have been described as "gone" because it was unrecognizable.

you cant even say that when a large portion of is still present, at the very least that condition wouldve been included in ivanovas brief to the assembled personel, instead of saying that the planet was gone.

So, where did the planet go? Why does "gone" mean "accelerated to escape velocity," rather than "vaporized," or "disintegrated"?

vorlons not thorough?.. they did go after the refugees, on their safe havens, didnt they?.

That's the most inefficient way to do things. They hit the planet, and then waste all their time running around picking up all the pieces? If the refugees had all escaped via starships, then they could go wherever they wanted. Why go to the place that the Vorlons would be most likely to strike next?

and ships couldve been 100,000km away from the planet upon the arrival of the vorlons, they still could be classed as having just escaped, and could still witness, and report on, the planetary wide destruction.

So, they had the brilliant idea to go to camps with concentrations of survivors from attacks that were supposed to wipe everyone out, not even considering that the Vorlons may come back to finish what they started? Is everyone in B5 completely stupid?

she did not say that the ships were going to be sent to those planets that have been recently attacked.
she said that refugee stations were being targeted, that they lost 3 of them already, and that the list of stations will be changed, and then called for available ships to help with the evacuation.

Why would she need to do that? Everyone got their via a starship, so everyone could leave the way they came in: a starship. They obviously left in a timely enough fashion to avoid being destroyed, according to you.

and as i said already.. more ships would allow for quicker evacuation, even though the refugees may have sufficient ships to handle the numbers...

But they could already handle the numbers. How do you think they got there? Did refugees just appear out of nowhere?

ng influenced by the shadows including shadow ships, or/and the pilots within them, themselves.
we do know that the shadows bury their ships deep into the ground.
one way of exposing, and destroying them, all at once is to shatter the planet.

No, we know that Shadow vessels were kept on the ground. If they were underground, why would Londo's nuclear attack have destroyed them?

as i was saying earlier.. having more ships around makes the evacuation process quicker, and easier, and counter problems associated with panic.. esp since they didnt know that the vorlons would be thorough enough to also start targeting the refugee havens.

You're making this more complex than it needs to be. "OK everyone, get on the ship you came in on!" Problem solved.

there was already a refugee congestion after the first reported attack on ventradi iii.

Which means that the survivors were on the surface because they didn't have ships of their own to escape with.

you said anywhere on the planet.. so yes it can be anywhere on the planet..

And JMS is referring to tactical and strategic mobility, just like I was.

the intent on jump points being able to form within objects was clear.. the actual "what if" was with regards to the actual question of poster on why sol went nova far earlier than its predicted to be...
jms responded with what if jump points interfered with it.

You still haven't explained how this equates to proof of ability.

first.. before the nukes were detonated the vorlons & shadows ignored the yr race completely.. they didnt start attacking the yr straight away.
and secondly.. why didnt the shadows use all the missles their planet killer manifested and surrounded sheridens fleet with. instead they only used two.

Because they have a finite number of missiles with which to accomplish the job of destroying a planet.

as for your above statement, its like saying that no one would hold back in a situation where one got punched and has the ability to punch back, and outright kill, the puncher... truth is some people will hold back.
though its true the vorlons have been killing a lot, but only those influenced by the shadows, likewise the shadows were killing those influenced by the vorlons..
in sheridens fleet you have a mixture of those being influenced by the vorlons, and those being influenced, or have the potential to be influenced, by the shadows..
if anything the vorlons & shadows were like parents, or guardians, of the younger race, each with a strong preference to those they directly influenced.

There is no evidence that the Shadows wanted to kill everyone with Vorlon influence, only the other way around. I'm not going to run around with you and discuss Shadow incompetence, but the fact remains that the Shadows obviously wanted White Star 1 turned into atoms or its whole crew destroyed. Therefore, it's clear that they'd just drain all the energy that they could from it.

as for the bomb scenes..
1st scene does show some shadow ship fragments, though its unclear whether or not these came from a fighter, or scout, or battleship, 2nd scene shows no ships destroyed, vorlons ships emerging apparently unscathed, 3rd scene with shadows again, no ships were destroyed.

It also shows a Vorlon ship being severely damaged, if not destroyed or maimed, by the blast.

im well aware of of heat/energy being in the form of photons of certain frequencies.

No, you're obviously not. Otherwise, you wouldn't have made it look like you thought that heat existed in a form other than particles. Furthermore, energy doesn't exist in the form of particles. It exists in the form of motion, mass, gravitational potential, et cetera. Photons impart energy, but they are not energy themselves. Saying that an object has 30J of kinetic energy has no bearing on the number of photons in it.

what im saying
they have the ability to create those who can convert energy into matter.. i.e technomages.

Big deal. We can create nuclear reactors that split atoms, does that mean that we personally possess this ability?

thats what i have been trying saying above...
the shadows here were holding back, i.e. they didnt want to kill everyone.. they only wanted to kill those who had unified the younger races against them.

So, naturally, they'd drain the energy from White Star 1 as quickly as possibly. Thank you for proving my point.

and although the heat/energy drain at the showed setting would *eventually* kill everyone in sheridens fleet, that is not actually what they intended to do.

So, they were going to drain everyone's energy in such a way that everyone would die at the same time, but they only wanted to kill Sheridan? That's absurd.

all im saying is that we cannot make a firm judgement given that the shadows held back against the yr, in this particular scene where the energy/drain was being used.

But you are making a firm judgment. You're saying that the energy dissipation rate of the Death Cloud must exceed the energy production rate of the Death Star with absolutely no evidence.

[Icon]

So, the Drakh knew exactly how to pilot the Death Cloud and how to use it, but they couldn't figure out which switch to flip for "Energy Drain"? Do you have any idea how pathetic you look? Perhaps the Death Cloud simply couldn't drain the energy being pumped into it by the Excalibur.

Actually this isn't as pathetic as you might think. After all the ISA was given specs on Vorlon weapons and still could not get it right. The Drahk built their SPk after the Shadows had left. It isn't a stretch to think they also didn't get it right.

[Graeme Dice]

exchange between Ivanova and C&C (still on the whitestar) just after marcus and ivanova got back from discovering the vorlon fleet

Ivanova: Ivanova to c&c.
C&C: C&C online
Ivanova: W'ere coming in, find Lyta Alexander, i need to see her as soon as possible.
C&C: Confirmed. Anything else?
Ivanova: Yes i want you to RUN a PROBE on all transmissions, from sector..
Marcus: ...70 by 10 by 53..
ivanova: Did you get that?
C&C: Got it. What are we looking for?
Ivanova: I dont know.. w'ill know it when we find it..

now lets look at ivanova's contributions to the exchange, at the end of the episode.

Nothing there about destroying a planet.

Marcus: ...We tried to track them. But we lost them at around sector 70..
Delenn: Theres a shadow base not far from there.
Ivanova: Exactly! so as soon we got back i had C&C MONITOR that area for any transmissions, ANYTHING UNSUAL. The shadow base was located on a planet called arkada7. Its not there anymore.
Lennier: The base?
lyta: No! The planet! They destroyed...They destroyed an entire planet!.

It's a pity that they need atmospheric shuttles to evacuate the survivors from another attack, as shown in the following quote.

"This is a Command and Control update. The safe haven for refugees on Tizino Prime is no longer responding. We believe they may have fallen to the Vorlon advance, but we can't be sure for another--I guess--ten, twelve hours? Before they attack, the Vorlons blanket all frequencies so no reports can get out. There have been some changes to the list of refugee stations. We'll have that information for you shortly--we've lost three of them. All the governments in sector 57 have declared a state of interplanetary emergency..." Reports coming in from survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We're in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground. We'll rebroadcast this message in twenty standard minutes."

Right, so the planet was still there _after_ the attack.

but it can be targeted..

So what? I can target a mosquito with a handgun. That doesn't mean that I can hit it.

super advanced humans that have perhaps reached near vorlon level tech.

So?

because it would most likely severely damage, if not destroy, the ship performing the manuver.
but against something as big and as powerful as a deathstar.. better to sacrifice a few ships with this approach rather than a frontal one.

Or against something like the Vorlon Planet Killer. It's a pity they didn't use this miraculous ability there.

In case you didn't know, they would have to be able to fly the Death Cloud into a star and absorb all of its energy to accomplish that.

since when did the deathstar have a diameter comparable with that of a star.[/quote]
In one shot it outputs as much energy as our sun does in 7,000 years. The Death Cloud needs to be able to fly into a star to equal the amount of energy the DS can produce.

No, the next question would be: "Why do you pretend to understand thermodynamics when it is obvious that you have no knowledge of it?"

since when does did the process of phasing in to, a[/quote]
Care to finish the sentence?

[Durandal]

Actually this isn't as pathetic as you might think. After all the ISA was given specs on Vorlon weapons and still could not get it right. The Drahk built their SPk after the Shadows had left. It isn't a stretch to think they also didn't get it right.

According to my memory, that Death Cloud was left behind by the Shadows, and the Drakh were obviously fully versed in its abilities.

[adam warlock]

The Shadows "destroyed" a planet, but we can clearly see the planet still existed, it just was not supporting any life forms.

but the planet was not described to be "not there anymore", which was the case with arkada7

Further, if the Vorlons were so thorough, how did they allow people to escape? Stopping all escaping people is well within the range of SW capability. The inability of one of the most powerful races in existence to do so indicates that B5 ships in general are not as good at intercepting one another as ships in SW, in which a single capital ship can stop all outgoing ships without a single escapee.

if the ships were just being launched upon the arrival of the vorlons, or that the evacuation just started, then they probably would stand little chance of escaping, considering the fleet escort also.
if the ships were already far enough upon the arrival of the vorlons then its more likely that they could get away, and they could be still classed as having just escaped.

Also, a survivor of the World Trade Center attacks is not a person who was in New York at the time, it is a person who was in one of the buildings when the plane hit, and it MIGHT be extended to people who were in the WTC at the time of the attacks. It clearly does not refer to people who were near the Hudson, or people who were able to see one of the planes hit.

the people in near the hudson, or others far away and were just watching, did not have to escape out of the buildings just before they collapsed.

those who knew about the coming attack and have, or just, managed to escape, just before the planets destruction, could be classed as survivors...

[Durandal]

Minor correction: The nuclear blast in Into the Fire showed damage to a Vorlon fighter, not a capital ship.