B5 Shadows vs Empire

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:39pm

Planetary shields can open small apetures in themselves to let ships through. Ref, again, is Rogue Squadron.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:43pm

SirNitram wrote:Planetary shields can open small apetures in themselves to let ships through. Ref, again, is Rogue Squadron.

All right, I admit, I have never read it, so I concede this point. But you still have not adressed my point of phasing in under the shields, or infecting the YR with the plague.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-02 04:48pm

fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Planetary shields can open small apetures in themselves to let ships through. Ref, again, is Rogue Squadron.
All right, I admit, I have never read it, so I concede this point. But you still have not adressed my point of phasing in under the shields, or infecting the YR with the plague.

I haven't addressed the second because there's no evidence they can phase under shields. Here's a hint: Just because a ship based on Vorlon technology can do something, does not mean the Shadows can do the same. Especially through a high-energy shield, and lacking someone feeding them coordinates.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 04:49pm

fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Planetary shields can open small apetures in themselves to let ships through. Ref, again, is Rogue Squadron.
All right, I admit, I have never read it, so I concede this point. But you still have not adressed my point of phasing in under the shields, or infecting the YR with the plague.

I'll address the planetary shield problem
-hyperspace is not "parallel" with real space, so 10 feet forward is not 10 feet forward in hyperspace, and vis versa

-shadow ships have the ability to "cloak" themselves, so they are partially in and out of hyperspace at the same time

So how are they going to slip under the shield? its impossible, they can't do the cloak trick, they'll be detected by imperial sensors, and they'll run smack into the planetary shield, cause some of them is in real space

they can't take a peek, in real space, and go, ah ok, back into hyperspace and then i'll re-appear under the shield, can't do that, cause its not parallel, they can't fly forward, and then unphase and be under the shield, they might end up in the sun...

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 04:57pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Planetary shields can open small apetures in themselves to let ships through. Ref, again, is Rogue Squadron.
All right, I admit, I have never read it, so I concede this point. But you still have not adressed my point of phasing in under the shields, or infecting the YR with the plague.

I'll address the planetary shield problem
-hyperspace is not "parallel" with real space, so 10 feet forward is not 10 feet forward in hyperspace, and vis versa
Actually, that describes a different dimension, and which is totally separate from realspace.

-shadow ships have the ability to "cloak" themselves, so they are partially in and out of hyperspace at the same time

So how are they going to slip under the shield? its impossible, they can't do the cloak trick, they'll be detected by imperial sensors, and they'll run smack into the planetary shield, cause some of them is in real space

they can't take a peek, in real space, and go, ah ok, back into hyperspace and then i'll re-appear under the shield, can't do that, cause its not parallel, they can't fly forward, and then unphase and be under the shield, they might end up in the sun

The shadows have the ability to track objects in realspace while they themselves are in hyperspace. They can see where they are going.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 05:01pm

Actually, that describes a different dimension, and which is totally separate from realspace.

thats what i was trying to say

The shadows have the ability to track objects in realspace while they themselves are in hyperspace. They can see where they are going.

a minute ago you said they are in real space partially and do this as a cloaking method? why do this at all if they can just scan from hyperspace? doesn't make sense

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 05:04pm

Omega-13 wrote:
Actually, that describes a different dimension, and which is totally separate from realspace.
thats what i was trying to say

The shadows have the ability to track objects in realspace while they themselves are in hyperspace. They can see where they are going.
a minute ago you said they are in real space partially and do this as a cloaking method? why do this at all if they can just scan from hyperspace? doesn't make sense

It makes excellent sense. i used their cloaking tech as an example of their superior control of hyperspace, superior even to the Vorlons. That is the only purpose of me mentioning the cloaking tech.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 05:15pm

fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:
Actually, that describes a different dimension, and which is totally separate from realspace.
thats what i was trying to say

The shadows have the ability to track objects in realspace while they themselves are in hyperspace. They can see where they are going.
a minute ago you said they are in real space partially and do this as a cloaking method? why do this at all if they can just scan from hyperspace? doesn't make sense
It makes excellent sense. i used their cloaking tech as an example of their superior control of hyperspace, superior even to the Vorlons. That is the only purpose of me mentioning the cloaking tech.

its useless, Imperial sensors can detect gravity

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 05:23pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote: thats what i was trying to say
a minute ago you said they are in real space partially and do this as a cloaking method? why do this at all if they can just scan from hyperspace? doesn't make sense
It makes excellent sense. i used their cloaking tech as an example of their superior control of hyperspace, superior even to the Vorlons. That is the only purpose of me mentioning the cloaking tech.
its useless, Imperial sensors can detect gravity

And how does the ability to detect grvity in realspace affect objects in hyperspace.

And you still have not adressed my point of infecting the YR and spreading the plague tat way.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:08pm

the point is, if the shadows use that "cloak" technique, it won't work, the Empire would detect the gravity of the ships with their sensors, so the shadows are screwed in real space, they have to stay hiding in hyperspace,

as for the plague, i'm arguing that they'll never have the chance to deploy it,
the empire will hunt them down, to as they say "the ends of the earth"

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 09:11pm

"to the depths of hyperspace" is more likely. And this is the one place the Empire can't get to.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:12pm

fgalkin wrote:"to the depths of hyperspace" is more likely. And this is the one place the Empire can't get to.

yet i've posted how they can, easily, and yet you have no argument for it??

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:23pm

Just to add, before you lash out,

if the shadows decided to deploy a fleet towards the wormhole, to try and cross through, the empire would have hyperspace guarded with their own warships,

it would not take 4 months to rip off some jump point tech, and torture engineers to tell you how it works

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 09:25pm

"Millions of drones charting hyperspace"? I've told you, they'd get lost in the first gravitational eddie they come across. It takes the control of hyperspace of the Vorlons to do something like that. And only one race managed to completely chart hyperspace, the Walkers.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:26pm

fgalkin wrote:"Millions of drones charting hyperspace"? I've told you, they'd get lost in the first gravitational eddie they come across. It takes the control of hyperspace of the Vorlons to do something like that. And only one race managed to completely chart hyperspace, the Walkers.

ok, explain what a gravitational eddie is,

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 09:27pm

Omega-13 wrote:Just to add, before you lash out,

if the shadows decided to deploy a fleet towards the wormhole, to try and cross through, the empire would have hyperspace guarded with their own warships,

it would not take 4 months to rip off some jump point tech, and torture engineers to tell you how it works

Did you even wathc B5? The YR are nothing even close to the level of control over hyperspace the FO have. They can only navigate hyperspace via beacons. The Shadows do not.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:29pm

fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:Just to add, before you lash out,

if the shadows decided to deploy a fleet towards the wormhole, to try and cross through, the empire would have hyperspace guarded with their own warships,

it would not take 4 months to rip off some jump point tech, and torture engineers to tell you how it works
Did you even wathc B5? The YR are nothing even close to the level of control over hyperspace the FO have. They can only navigate hyperspace via beacons. The Shadows do not.

did i even watch b5....no i'm just guessing, what do you think

YR can't even make shields, i'm not impressed with YR tech. The Empire's ability in science is a little beyond the YR. They just need the tech and the know how to use it, and they can do their own research,

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 09:30pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:"Millions of drones charting hyperspace"? I've told you, they'd get lost in the first gravitational eddie they come across. It takes the control of hyperspace of the Vorlons to do something like that. And only one race managed to completely chart hyperspace, the Walkers.
ok, explain what a gravitational eddie is,

This is pointless. If you will not come up with some intelligent argument, I will accept your concession.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:31pm

fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:"Millions of drones charting hyperspace"? I've told you, they'd get lost in the first gravitational eddie they come across. It takes the control of hyperspace of the Vorlons to do something like that. And only one race managed to completely chart hyperspace, the Walkers.
ok, explain what a gravitational eddie is,
This is pointless. If you will not come up with some intelligent argument, I will accept your concession.

explain what a gravitational eddie is,

or the shadows will be killed by the neurosystem analyser, get my point? explain things instead of using terms that anyone but a die hard fan won't know

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-08-02 09:35pm

Omega-13 wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:Just to add, before you lash out,

if the shadows decided to deploy a fleet towards the wormhole, to try and cross through, the empire would have hyperspace guarded with their own warships,

it would not take 4 months to rip off some jump point tech, and torture engineers to tell you how it works
Did you even wathc B5? The YR are nothing even close to the level of control over hyperspace the FO have. They can only navigate hyperspace via beacons. The Shadows do not.
did i even watch b5....no i'm just guessing, what do you think

YR can't even make shields, i'm not impressed with YR tech. The Empire's ability in science is a little beyond the YR. They just need the tech and the know how to use it, and they can do their own research,

God, this is ridiculous. And they will be able to do in 1000 years the same thing the FO did in a million years? This is stupid.They will not be able to improve the YR hyperspace tech despite all their multi-TT shields or 200 GT TLs.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-08-02 09:36pm

Hey let me ask again, what is a gravitational eddie

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-08-02 09:39pm

A gravitational hyperspace eddie is exactly what it sounds like, It's a kind of hyerpspace gravity "wind" which "blows" ships of course if the ships don't fight against it. Hence, the need to stay on beacon for YR ships.

How strong are these eddies? Well I don't know.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-08-02 10:02pm

??
one other thing i realised
empire are allowed to get a hold of b5 technology and materials (i.e. jump gates, hyperspace , quantum 40)
so are shadows allowed to get hold of empire tech and materials(weapons and shields, hypermatter)..

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-08-02 10:50pm

what could they do? send battle crabs to take on stardesstroyers?

no i meant that with regards to gathering information about a powerful other galaxy force that just entered their galaxy.

learn what?

learn whatever the younger races learn about the empire

an assumption, nothing more, so i'll go with the fact that they have 1 eye, yep they are scouting around,

season 3 ep "walkabout" only 3 sets of eyes going after ivanova..season 4 ep "the hour of the wolf" showed only one set... we also learn in centauri trilogy the presence of a cloaked planet sized shadow base..

thus, shadows having more than one "eye", is supported by canon and official.

of course they could! just like the other first ones did that against the vorlon planet...oh wait they didn't...don't even start with the jump point inhibitors, if you can't prove they exist.

incessant moaning about hyperspace phasing.. its not my fault its included in b5wars and was described to be canon..

we also now that whitestar can move (in realspace) with speeds in excess of the speed the deathstar was shown to move at (ds1 towards yavin), and a shadow battleship can move faster

i tried looking for info about jumppoint inhibitors.. non found.
the only thing close to this is with regards to locking the "jumpgates" from being used by unwanted ships/forces..by identifying frequencies transmitted by ships using the jumpgate and locking it against that freqency.

as for why shadows didnt use this on the vorlons (i.e. planet killer), it can only mean that the vorlons have a particular defense against it.. those two have dealt eachother for millions of years.

don't know enough about this method to comment
[/quote

shadow control pods were somehow loaded by drakh into centauri capital ships...pods control the shis by themsevles without needing a crew.
source is from season 5 episode "MOvements of fire and shadow".

i still doubt that the emperor would know whats going on everywhere at the same time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
don't assume
sure he knew what was goin in vaders mind before he got shut thrown down the shaft.. and vader had such uber telepathic powers to counter his (not!.. as shown by events in vaders quest)

and before this i dont recall the emperor anticipating, or knowing the involvment of ewoks.. and before that he didnt see the involvment of jedi with the trade federation.

add to that, the shadows have had a lot of experience dealing with telepaths (on the level with vorlons - which i doubt the emperor to be on the same level as).

unike the YR, the Empire has the capability to use droids,
guess what teeps like those on lytas level can do to electronic systems (see season 5 ep "wheel of fire")

Empire has the ability to communicate in real time across an entire galaxy, so staying in touch wouldn't be a problem, also probe droids, send those out by the millions into hyperspace to make new becons and to sniff for shadow. Aslong as the shadows are runing, they'll have a hard time fighting back

yr race has the ability to communicate across vast distances too, real time, observed almost everytime ISN news is on.
it doesnt mean the yr were able to navigate better through hyperspace bettern than the shadows..

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-03 01:02am

adam warlock wrote:??
one other thing i realised
empire are allowed to get a hold of b5 technology and materials (i.e. jump gates, hyperspace , quantum 40)
so are shadows allowed to get hold of empire tech and materials(weapons and shields, hypermatter)..

Not unless they can win a battle against the Empire and its forces. Since the Empire would win many battles and force many races to hand over technology, they would gain access to that technology.

BTW, I think this is a stupid point. There isn't enough time in a war this quick to implement technology from the other side, especially since SW technology offers MASSIVE advantages in almost all areas. I don't think it would be a priority for the Empire.