If Babylon 5 invaded Star Wars (off topic,sorry)

[omegaLancer]

Vorlon - Star war uses two types of shield, particle shields and Ray shields.

Particle shielsd are used to deflect matter, like meteors and the such. The meteor strike scene at Hoth is a very agrued over scene. First it is said by the various Serialization of the movie that the shield were down to allow communication with Vader. There is also the fact that the ISD had spent at least a day under constant bombard while searching for the MF, Vader did not allow the ISD to leave the Asteriod field the entire time the search went on.

We later see ISD being repeatily struck by meteors while chasing the Falcon with no effect.

From various sources that describe the chase, the meteors are said to strike with the force of megaton missiles against the shield of pursuing ISD's with no apparent damage.

Various missiles like the Concussion missiles used by Slave 1 ( hopefully you have see AOTC) do physical damage, in this case Slave 1 missile has a yield of about 190MT ( this is not exact) and while this is fatal to small fighters and gunships, it takes 1000's (From various EU novels) to harm a Capital ship who's shield are at full power.

Apparently shield power is divide between the two type of shield, more power can be shunt to shields, including the particle shields. As it stand in shield of lies a SD reinforce it Particle shield while combating a Hypervelocity cannon that fired hi speed slugs and was able to withstand a prolong exposure to the cannon while its bomber took out the cannon.

So Physical or kinetic weapons are not much of a threat unless they impact gigaton worth of energy.

[SyntaxVorlon]

And Crown, please if you've figured it out, do simply tell me the answer.

(sigh) it's elementary physics, and you're so goddamned lazy you refuse to give it a serious try before giving up and demanding that the answer be spoon-fed to you? My faith in the younger generation slips another notch ...

I don't have a graphing calculator and a working knowledge of concussion and collision physics. "It's elementary physics" in elementary school they teach you that water boils at 100 degrees centigrade and that if you push a mass of 1 kg so that it travels 1 meter in 1 second then you've used 1 newton of force and 1 joule of energy. (Actually that's if you're in freshman science in HS) They also teach you that if two objects hit eachother then their energies will be conserved. But as shields are in use in this scenario then Newton gets thrown out the window.
Please excuse me if I have not been educated in engineering and know all aspects of particle physics.

What's more shocking is that you say that you have faith in the younger generation at all, OLD MAN. (You had better think that I'm joking or else you've become a literalist and should be drugged immediately)

[Darth Wong]

I don't have a graphing calculator and a working knowledge of concussion and collision physics. "It's elementary physics" in elementary school they teach you that water boils at 100 degrees centigrade and that if you push a mass of 1 kg so that it travels 1 meter in 1 second then you've used 1 newton of force and 1 joule of energy. (Actually that's if you're in freshman science in HS) They also teach you that if two objects hit eachother then their energies will be conserved. But as shields are in use in this scenario then Newton gets thrown out the window.

Right (assuming sea-level air pressure), wrong (hint: by a factor of two), wrong (you assume perfect elasticity), and wrong (assumption that forcefields negate laws of physics). That's 1 for 4, on what you describe yourself as elementary physics. You seriously need to brush up.

Please excuse me if I have not been educated in engineering and know all aspects of particle physics.

You don't need to be. Your knowledge of ELEMENTARY physics is woefully lacking; you could not even explain the basic relationship between force, mass, and acceleration without fucking it up.

Frankly, the burden of proof is on you. I've explained all of this on my website, and you are so goddamned lazy that you won't even bother looking for it. Yet you dismiss its conclusions and demand that I prove you wrong even though you have demonstrated that your knowledge of physics is unacceptable for a high school graduate.

What's more shocking is that you say that you have faith in the younger generation at all, OLD MAN. (You had better think that I'm joking or else you've become a literalist and should be drugged immediately)

Thanks to you, that problem has been corrected. I see now that it is possible to graduate high school without knowing F=ma and x=0.5at^2. Quite sad, really. And the really sad part is that despite the appalling ignorance, people like you are still arrogant enough to insist that the burden of proof is on someone else to prove you wrong, and spoonfeed the explanations to you so you don't have to work for them.

[omegaLancer]

Actually there seem to be a gradual dumming down of the younger generation, Maybe it Xbox or M TV fault.

But Momentum is still a problem with shields, but the fact that ISD's have bracing that can withstand gigaton explosions that are generated by Turbolasers, means that such bracing is available for shield units.

Not so long ago, there was plans to use atomic bombs to propel a space ship and it was not beyond our present level of engineering to design a shock absorper to protect the ship from the force of the blast, so it would not be beyond the realm of SW tech..

[Darth Wong]

BTW, "SyntaxVorlon", you seem to think that if you label something as a joke, then nobody can comment negatively on it. Here's a hint: jokes are normally supposed to be funny, not just a jack-ass attempt to get in a dig without allowing retaliation.

In short, fuck off until you grow a brain. I'm running out of patience with your arrogance; you refuse to learn a goddamned thing, and you demand that everyone else sit you down like a fucking baby and spoon-feed it to you. Grow up.

[SyntaxVorlon]

distance = one half acceleration multiplied by time squared
and force = mass multiplied by accleration
and I'm still a senior, three thing's you've gotten wrong so far.
Are you saying that I have to get a degree in engineering before you'll tell me why a rock hitting an ISD, your ubership would hamper or damage it in any way?
Where the fuck did you think I got that 32 million kg estimate for the mass of the 20meter wide asteriod that the ISD shot at? The sky? I got it from the TLCs.
I assumed that the rock and ISD were accelerating at eachother at a relative amount of 10 m/s^2 and that was incorrect, I should have taken the mass of the ISD and the mass of the asteroid and their velocities toward the potential point of impact, but wait these are very different objects.

Mass of asteroid = 32,965,759 kg

One is a chunk of iron with a mass of 3.2e7 kg moving roughly at 400 m/s, the other is an ISD moving at an indeterminate speed I'm sorry but I did not see a speed in the TLC maybe I'll check again. But wait there's more, one has a force field, which, by definition provides newtons of force through use of fields and absorbs them in the same manner thus counteracting the force, by applying the force via the field's power supply and not a change of momentum in the object with the field in other words perfectly reflective of the other objects force. Technically the laws of physics are not broken they're bent, the field absorbs the kinetic energy, so Newton's out the window, but is hanging in the air.

[SyntaxVorlon]

BTW, "SyntaxVorlon", you seem to think that if you label something as a joke, then nobody can comment negatively on it. Here's a hint: jokes are normally supposed to be funny, not just a jack-ass attempt to get in a dig without allowing retaliation.

I said that what I was saying was not meant to be offending simply funny. Excuse me for trying to pander to your hyperliteralism. From now on I'll just have to tell you when I'm joking after you've taken something the wrong way.

In short, fuck off until you grow a brain. I'm running out of patience with your arrogance; you refuse to learn a goddamned thing, and you demand that everyone else sit you down like a fucking baby and spoon-feed it to you. Grow up.

And the really sad part is that despite the appalling ignorance, people like you are still arrogant enough to insist that the burden of proof is on someone else to prove you wrong, and spoonfeed the explanations to you so you don't have to work for them.

I find it quite sad myself when you old people forget what you've just said and say it again. That or you have residual anger at having to feed children, I'm sorry if they were fussy.
Funny how you can run out of patience with someone's arrogance before they have a chance to reply to your last comment good job.

[omegaLancer]

It alway sadden me when these treads disolve into a flame war.

I actually believe that SV really is trying to understand the Factors involved in the shielding vs Physical impact so we should cut him some slack.

A good start SV would be the Mikes Shielding discussion, it cover the problem of momentum and shield generate, but it doesnot necessary mean that Meteor or any other Physical impactor can easily overcome shielding. It does add another factor to the design requirements.

How do shield generator handle Momentum, Braces and supports are a factor, spreading the period of time of the impulse is another. But as seen in the print, meteors and other Physical time Kinetic weapons are no more a problem than Turbolasers.

[SyntaxVorlon]

I read the physical impact essay. First off the object in question here is much smaller and thus would not have posed a significant threat to an ISD's shields, assuming they are active. But another thing you did not assume is that they could not take a destructive role in applying force to the asteroid. In other words creating a great deal of friction and directed heat all at once on the asteroid this would slow the object down very quickly and assuming it is a 3.2e7 mass then it will not have enough kinetic energy to 'push' it's way through the shields. Also I disagree with you on the point of the nature of force shields, they do not carry the additional stress load as they translate the KE of the object to whatever energy the field is based in. That momentum energy gets translated back to the asteroid or absorbed into the field transmitter, neutralizing the energy and saving the ship either way. You assume that shield will be transmitting the KE to the generator itself. If it did do this, why do they use plasma bolts in SW? They could used shielded ramming ships to overwhelm the shields on a Star Destroyer. Or cited in the article, high momentum railgun bursts.
Why are all of the weapons, save for missiles, energy based?
The idea of a force field requires not only that the field itself be applicable to force but force applying. Thus it, must through energy alone, apply the force not by absorbing the impact through the structural support of whatever hits it, or else it would stand to reason that high energy gatling guns would be placed on rebel fighters instead of ion cannons.

[XaLEv]

So have I, over at the b5tech forum. But I would consider them to be more 'ignorant idiots' than 'rabid fiver'.

That was Tigerclaw's, not B5tech, big difference. VS discussions aren't allowed at B5tech.

[XaLEv]

I was assuming that if the ISDs shields would not only counter the momentum(ie not transfer the momentum to the ISD)

I saw this and just had to turn away.

This form of shield(on an ISD) would not transfer momentum from the asteroid to the ship and would destroy the asteroid by reflecting its kinetic energy and adding the particle energy to the mix.

But I didn't when I saw this. I sure get jaded quick.

[SirNitram]

Does this moron not understand CoE and CoM? Christ.

[Ender]

B: This has been used against ships in B5, opening a jumpgate creates a massive amount of energy to be released if the as a part of the universe shifts into another dimension, whatever matter is their is destroyed and any in the immediate vecinity is superheated.
Ex:B5: In the Beginning, Minbari cruiser opens a jump gate immediately next to a Nova class cruiser and it is destroyed immediately.

Yes, they opened a jumpgate outside a bunch of ships after luring thse ships to a predetermined point. Far different then the ships opening jumppoints in the middle of full shileded shps during a fleet battle.

[Darth Servo]

*He's one of the Jump Point fanboys (he thinks they can beat back any invader just by opening a jump point inside their ship.

Ex:B5: In the Beginning, Minbari cruiser opens a jump gate immediately next to a Nova class cruiser and it is destroyed immediately.

That was BESIDE a ship. Not INSIDE it. There has never been a single instance of opening a jump point INSIDE a ship and thats what the Fivers are trying to sell as a feasable tactic even though there is ZERO prescedent for it.

[Darth Wong]

distance = one half acceleration multiplied by time squared
and force = mass multiplied by accleration
and I'm still a senior, three thing's you've gotten wrong so far.

In other words, dumb-ass, that means that it takes 2 m/s^2 acceleration to accelerate 1 kg block through 1 m in 1 s, which means that the force is 2 Newtons, not 1 Newton, and the energy is 2 J, not 1 J. As I said, you can't even do high school physics. Off by 100%.

Are you saying that I have to get a degree in engineering before you'll tell me why a rock hitting an ISD, your ubership would hamper or damage it in any way?

Conservation of Momentum. Damage to the asteroid is irrelevant. Think about this and get back to me, dumb-ass.

Where the fuck did you think I got that 32 million kg estimate for the mass of the 20meter wide asteriod that the ISD shot at? The sky? I got it from the TLCs.

Irrelevant. since the 20m asteroid is not the one that hit the bridge, dumb-fuck.

I assumed that the rock and ISD were accelerating at eachother at a relative amount of 10 m/s^2 and that was incorrect, I should have taken the mass of the ISD and the mass of the asteroid and their velocities toward the potential point of impact, but wait these are very different objects.

Of course they're different objects; why does that give you permission to invent velocities and accelerations out of thin air and plug them into equations to generate completely meaningless numbers?

You constantly whine that you have no engineering background and no scientific education. You go on to prove it by demonstrating pathetic ignorance of even high-school level physics, and an inability to perform ridiculously simple mathematical calculations which you should be able to easily perform in your head. But (and here's the problem) you somehow think you're qualified to perform calculations and dismiss those of others, despite your ignorance of the underlying physics, and you are too arrogant to accept correction from your betters. Instead, you fight, you grow petulant, it is as if you are simply incapable of accepting the remote possibility that you could be wrong. And even when someone points you to the page in question, your rebuttals are so completely off the mark that it's clear you haven't got a clue how the physics of something as simple as a baseball bat hitting a ball function.

But wait there's more, one has a force field, which, by definition provides newtons of force through use of fields and absorbs them in the same manner thus counteracting the force, by applying the force via the field's power supply and not a change of momentum in the object with the field in other words perfectly reflective of the other objects force.

ROTFLMAO!!! There is no change of momentum? So I suppose you think conservation of momentum does not exist as a scientific concept, eh? You believe a forcefield eliminates the laws of physics? Here's a hint, dumb-fuck: magnetic forcefields exist today, and guess what: they don't do that. You can't magically eliminate conservation of momentum via forcefields.

Technically the laws of physics are not broken they're bent, the field absorbs the kinetic energy, so Newton's out the window, but is hanging in the air.

Holy fuck, are you ever stupid. "Forcefields = no more Newtonian physics" in your mind. Does the term "leap in logic" mean anything to you?

[Durandal]

I read the physical impact essay. First off the object in question here is much smaller and thus would not have posed a significant threat to an ISD's shields, assuming they are active. But another thing you did not assume is that they could not take a destructive role in applying force to the asteroid. In other words creating a great deal of friction and directed heat all at once on the asteroid this would slow the object down very quickly and assuming it is a 3.2e7 mass then it will not have enough kinetic energy to 'push' it's way through the shields. Also I disagree with you on the point of the nature of force shields, they do not carry the additional stress load as they translate the KE of the object to whatever energy the field is based in.

The shields wouldn't play a destructive role in applying force to the asteroid? So it just shatters of its own accord, then? Ever heard of Newton's third law?

[Darth Wong]

The shields wouldn't play a destructive role in applying force to the asteroid? So it just shatters of its own accord, then? Ever heard of Newton's third law?

He believes that the shield generator somehow applies force to the asteroid without any reaction forces on itself. He thinks that a forcefield must be exempt from Newton's Third Law

[fgalkin]

Ha, I enjoyed all the B5 bashing

(not).

As for the 2MT nuke, we all know that it comes from the Hand of Sheridan effect and JMS's ignorance about nukes.

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

*grumble* *grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

Ha, I enjoyed all the B5 bashing

(not).

Actually, this thread has lately been about ignorance-bashing, specifically SyntaxVorlon's bizarre belief that forcefields allow negation of conservation of momentum by definition.

As for the 2MT nuke, we all know that it comes from the Hand of Sheridan effect and JMS's ignorance about nukes.

Too bad, since JMS is the creator of B5.

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

Probably one of Warlock's masturbatory pseudoscience fantasies (he of the art background who pretends to be a scientist by aping terminology). If the Sharlin has volatile systems onboard, you only need to damage it; you do not need to melt or vapourize its entire mass with the energy of your weapon. Was the HMS Hood destroyed by a shell that actually carried enough power to destroy the entire ship?

*grumble* *grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Sorry about your luck

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If it helps SV feel any more stupid, I understood the answer exactly waaay back when the first hint was dropped.

[fgalkin]

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

If the Sharlin has volatile systems onboard, you only need to damage it; you do not need to melt or vapourize its entire mass with the energy of your weapon. Was the HMS Hood destroyed by a shell that actually carried enough power to destroy the entire ship?

Well, then there could be speculation, that it had did not utilize its defensive systems since the bonehads thought the Lexington was defenseless.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ender]

As for the 2MT nuke, we all know that it comes from the Hand of Sheridan effect and JMS's ignorance about nukes.

So you're calling character shields a tactic now?

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

And yet it did.

[Master of Ossus]

Newton's Third Law. Think carefully about this.

F=ma
Ok so lets assume that the mass of this rock was accelerating relative to the acceleration of the ISD, let's assume a low acceleration, 10(m/s^2) And that it had a mass of, as stated in the TLCs, 3.2e7 kgs.
And you get a force of 3.2e8 Newtons
J=Nm
so 1.024e16 J or 1.024e10 MJ or 1.024e7 TJ
30 TJ ~ 8 KT
3750 TJ ~ 1 MT
10,240,000 TJ ~ 2 GT

Since you guys are adamant in claiming that an ISD can take 10s of Tera Tons then this would be less then a 1% drop in shields the only way for that ISD to be hurt significantly would be if it was moving at an acceleration of hundreds of meters per second, and as the asteroid is only 20 meter wide, then this ISD does not seem to be moving any more than 50-70 m/s not even accelerating.

JESUS CHRIST! How the hell can the asteroid be accelerating? WTF were you thinking when you made this post? WERE you thinking when you made this post, like DW asked you to? Do you even realize how fast the asteroid was moving? What's more, you assume that the shields were up at the time on the ISD! WTF is this?

[fgalkin]

As for the 2MT nuke, we all know that it comes from the Hand of Sheridan effect and JMS's ignorance about nukes.

So you're calling character shields a tactic now?

No, I'm saying that is the real reson why it happened.

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

And yet it did.

It could have simply caused a reactor breach, or the weapons systems to explode. The 2MT blast was not enough to destroy the ship.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Master of Ossus]

I assumed that the rock and ISD were accelerating at eachother at a relative amount of 10 m/s^2 and that was incorrect, I should have taken the mass of the ISD and the mass of the asteroid and their velocities toward the potential point of impact, but wait these are very different objects.

It wasn't just incorrect, it was mind-bogglingly stupid.

One is a chunk of iron with a mass of 3.2e7 kg moving roughly at 400 m/s, the other is an ISD moving at an indeterminate speed I'm sorry but I did not see a speed in the TLC maybe I'll check again. But wait there's more, one has a force field, which, by definition provides newtons of force through use of fields and absorbs them in the same manner thus counteracting the force, by applying the force via the field's power supply and not a change of momentum in the object with the field in other words perfectly reflective of the other objects force. Technically the laws of physics are not broken they're bent, the field absorbs the kinetic energy, so Newton's out the window, but is hanging in the air.

You don't need to know the velocity for both objects, you need to know the RELATIVE VELOCITY of the two objects, and in this case the rotation of the asteroid (which is generally left out of calculations, for simplification purposes).