Grand 40K Quantification Thread

[Setzer]

Sorry I don't remember the pages for this:

IIRC, there was a quote from The Bleeding Chalice saying an Emperor class Battleship can carry 200,000 people.

One from Traitor General, saying IoM estimates for the Eye of Terror's population have it equalling the Imperium as a minimum.

[andrewgpaul]

Duh

Stormbolters and heavy bolters, anyone?

That's not quite what he's meaning, though; a storm bolter is simply two bolt guns in one housing, and the heavy bolter is a heavyweapon. What he meant was multiple calibres of bolt gun and bolt pistol. An analogy would be Imperial guard officers use .22 derringers, while Space Marines wave Desert Eagle .50s around.

[Lost Soal]

Having now Finished False Gods I can add the mechanisions by which Horus fell to Chaos. The only thing that hasn't been made certain yet is if he's been daeminically possessed or influenced. Will have to wait until the 3rd book.

Should I write it up and post (I figure in miscellaneous, along with writeups on all the Primarchs eventually), and also there is the issue of spoilerisation, since this is a new novel and people might want to actually read it.

[Lost Soal]

Technology: Dark Eldar, Ships weapons ranges.

Nightbringer, Pg 62

'Dread Archon, the prey vessel has entered weapons range' hissed his second-in-command.
'Excellent,' smiled Kesharq beneath his skin. 'Power up the weapons and allign the mimic engines.'
The enemy ship was still too far away to see through the viewscreen, but Kesharq fancied he could sence its nearness.

Nightbringer, Pg 64

'New contact, Lord Admiral. Sixty thousand kilometers in front of us'

........................

'Target approaching lance range, dread archon.'

The way the book is written suggests that the scenes on the two ships is happening at roughly the same time. I would guess therefore that Dark Lances have a range of between 50-60,000km. Note it has other weapons with far greater ranges.

[Lost Soal]

Imperial (Space Marines)
Weapons Ranges

Nightbringer, Pg 138

'Broadside battery battery commanders report they have a firing solution. Target vessel has entered weapons range.'

Pg 139

'Dread Archon! I am detecting an energy build up 300,000 kilometers directly in front of us!'
Kesharq hurried over to the warrior who had spoken and stared at the sensor returns in horror.
There was no mistaking the energy signature. An enemy ship was building power in its weapons batteries and was preparing to fire.

The broadside batteries of a Strike Cruiser has a range of ~300,000km

[Azazal]

Forgot I had this in my bookmarks

40K time line 9000 BC to 41st mil

Haven't looked at it for sometime, so take info with a healthly grain of salt until proven.

[Connor MacLeod]

Remember the bolt has a rocket motor. Impact velocity at close range will be higher than muzzle velocity.

Don't you mean that the other way around? The longer the rocket has to accelerate, the higher its end velocity will be.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's possible that bolt velocitiy varies.

Oh, I have no doubt it probably can vary quite a bit. I'm just wondering whether its going to be as high as is neccessitated by the sort of recoil we're talking about involved in flinging about close to 1000 pounds. We're talking velocities that are 20, 30, 40 or even 50 times the speed of sound (IE, velocities anywhere from 8 km/s to up to 20 km/s or more.

Assuming a boltgun round weighs quite a bit might mitigate this some (but I should already point out that I'm assuming boltgun rounds weigh somethin gon the order of 100 grams - about the mass of a 20mm vulcan cannon shell, and 1/3 the mass of a 30mm Avenger cannon shell.) Something like half a kilo or a kilo might be a bit unrealistic. (or, it might not.)

The velocities implied by the round (assuming a 100 gram mass I used above) would easily imply single or double digit MJ kinetic energy alone, and the muzzle velocity would imply a flat trajectory over a mile or more (probably with an effective range over several miles.) It would also almost certainly tear apart most humanoid targets quite effectively WITHOUT detonating (assuming it didnt just over-penetrate, which is actually more likely.)

I'm not going to say its impossible, but from what I understand of a bolter, such performance or capabilities would be highly unsuual/rare. if not unlikely (For example, I understand bolters are not typically considered "long-range" weapons.. especially bolt-pistols. And that they're designed so that the bolt penetrates the target and detonates.)

We know that some boltguns in use by the Inquisition (specificially, the Deathwatch) have gravitic motors in them to allow them to be used.

That's about the only way you could get away with that high a momentum in this case. (disregarding the obvious consequences/capabilities implied by such a round. ) It could work, but such a round would have to be extraordinarily rare or unusual (which might make sense for an Inquistor to be using it, as I understand things.) and probably be designed to be used against something much bigger and stronger than a human (like a demon) or as anti-armor.

Also, this is Eisenhorn. I'm not sure if he's got his body-frame at this stage (I'd have to check), but in later life, when he's an old man, he has a rig built that allows him to move, that might absorb weapon recoil too.

He'd probably have to mass several times more than the suit he's sending flying (Several tons, I'd guess) and he'd probably have to lock his arm

[Connor MacLeod]

Technology: Dark Eldar, Ships weapons ranges.

Nightbringer, Pg 62

'Dread Archon, the prey vessel has entered weapons range' hissed his second-in-command.
'Excellent,' smiled Kesharq beneath his skin. 'Power up the weapons and allign the mimic engines.'
The enemy ship was still too far away to see through the viewscreen, but Kesharq fancied he could sence its nearness.

To obtain a lower limit on that oyu need to know the dimensions of the craft in question. A mile long ISD, for example, might be barely visible out to a range of several thousand km, whereas the Executor might be just as visible out to a range of tens of thousands of km or so.

[Lost Soal]

Technology: Dark Eldar, Ships weapons ranges.

Nightbringer, Pg 62

'Dread Archon, the prey vessel has entered weapons range' hissed his second-in-command.
'Excellent,' smiled Kesharq beneath his skin. 'Power up the weapons and allign the mimic engines.'
The enemy ship was still too far away to see through the viewscreen, but Kesharq fancied he could sence its nearness.

To obtain a lower limit on that oyu need to know the dimensions of the craft in question. A mile long ISD, for example, might be barely visible out to a range of several thousand km, whereas the Executor might be just as visible out to a range of tens of thousands of km or so.

I included that for 2 reasons;
1) because I assumed a race as advanced as the Eldar would have a zoom feature on their viewscreens, and if anyone had read quotes about how much zoom they had, it would help.
2) in order to demonstrate that the weapons range was in excess of the 60,000km range for dark lances. In this case the page number has more significance than the quote mind, but...

[Connor MacLeod]

I included that for 2 reasons;
1) because I assumed a race as advanced as the Eldar would have a zoom feature on their viewscreens, and if anyone had read quotes about how much zoom they had, it would help.

Possibly, yes. Although I would hesitate to call that definite. (It would depend on the weapon, I suppose, for one thing.)

2) in order to demonstrate that the weapons range was in excess of the 60,000km range for dark lances. In this case the page number has more significance than the quote mind, but...

You'll notice I specified the above as a "lower limit"

[Imperial Overlord]

Remember the bolt has a rocket motor. Impact velocity at close range will be higher than muzzle velocity.

Don't you mean that the other way around? The longer the rocket has to accelerate, the higher its end velocity will be.

No, I mean exactly that. It will continue to accelerate as it leaves the muzzle of the gun so at close range its velocity will be higher. It will continue to accelerate past that but there will be factors like gravity, atmospheric density and so on acting on the bolt. So its velocity will probably be higher at close range (relevant for the example of a close range shot) than the muzzle velocity, even higher at mid range and decline at long range, depending on enviromental conditions. Unless you see an error in any of this.

[NecronLord]

Should I write it up and post (I figure in miscellaneous, along with writeups on all the Primarchs eventually), and also there is the issue of spoilerisation, since this is a new novel and people might want to actually read it.

Not really. It's not very relevant. Can't 'quantify' how he fell.

[Kuja]

Technology: Dark Eldar, Ships weapons ranges.

Nightbringer, Pg 62

'Dread Archon, the prey vessel has entered weapons range' hissed his second-in-command.
'Excellent,' smiled Kesharq beneath his skin. 'Power up the weapons and allign the mimic engines.'
The enemy ship was still too far away to see through the viewscreen, but Kesharq fancied he could sence its nearness.

To obtain a lower limit on that oyu need to know the dimensions of the craft in question. A mile long ISD, for example, might be barely visible out to a range of several thousand km, whereas the Executor might be just as visible out to a range of tens of thousands of km or so.

The vessel in question was an Ultramarines strike cruiser. I forget exactly how big they are...2-3 km IIRC.

[Falkenhayn]

So bolters are freakshly powerful, only we don't know how much?

Could they turn something in Stormy armor into scrambled eggs between momentum and KE?

[Kuja]

In Execution Hour, the Chaos cruiser Contagion opens fire on the 3-km long Lord Solar Macharius at a range of twenty thousand kilometers. It is heavily implied that had the Macharius not detected the Contagion and initiated evasive maneuvers, the ship would have been completely disabled.

[NecronLord]

Could they turn something in Stormy armor into scrambled eggs between momentum and KE?

Well, even if they didn't crack the armour (and let's face it, those bolts probably would) if they have enough recoil to break a man's arm, it's... not going to be good if the bolts hit you in the head even in impenetrable armour.

[NecronLord]

Updated the Imperial Guard entry a bit, and a few others. I found some old lasgun and pistol estimates of Connor's.

[Black Admiral]

On Earthshaker rounds;

Storm Of Iron, pg. 78:
The ground whipped upwards, tossing her into the air as the first Basilisk shell impacted, blasting a crater fifteen meters across and obiliterating a dozen men in an instant.

Ghostmaker, pg. 260
At another place, in a dry creek bed, fourteen Basilisk self-propelled guns, their long barrels raised to the sky ready for bombardment, became lightning conductors. Electrocuted, the gun-crews danced and jerked, or melted onto the white-hot hulls for ten seconds before the combined munitions blew a square kilometer of jungle into the sky in a column of superheated energy and debris.

The blast shook the hulking, hundred metre-high Imperial command Leviathan stationed sixteen kilometers back and threw the bridge crew to the deck.

On the Essene's dimensions:

Eisenhorn: Xenos, pg. 67:
The Essene was three kilometers long by my estimate, and fully seven hundred meters deep at its broadest part.

[NecronLord]

In seconds, Urthwart became a victim of the aptly named Planet Killer - the world and all it had ever contained committed instantly to historyby this greatest of Abdaddon's Machineries.

Either it has an option to wipe out a planet less violently, or it's gotten one hell of an upgrade over the centuries since it was built.

Added a generous gauss-flayer estimate.

[white_rabbit]

Spoilerised text on Primarch resilience from False Gods.

...then the breach exploded with a grinding crack of ruptured stone, and something immense and red erupted from the ground with a bestial roar of hate and bloodlust. Soldiers fell away from the red giant.....Angron towered over them, bloody and enraged, and Loken marvelled that he could still be alive after thousands of tonnes of rock had engulfed him "

[Connor MacLeod]

Spoilerised text on Primarch resilience from False Gods.

...then the breach exploded with a grinding crack of ruptured stone, and something immense and red erupted from the ground with a bestial roar of hate and bloodlust. Soldiers fell away from the red giant.....Angron towered over them, bloody and enraged, and Loken marvelled that he could still be alive after thousands of tonnes of rock had engulfed him "

Is that before or after he turned to Chaos? IIRC quite a few of the Traitors ended up tapping Chaos (or becoming more.. Daemon princes and whatnot) and that might affect things.

[Connor MacLeod]

On Earthshaker rounds;

Storm Of Iron, pg. 78:
The ground whipped upwards, tossing her into the air as the first Basilisk shell impacted, blasting a crater fifteen meters across and obiliterating a dozen men in an instant.

Using the SD.net asteroid destruction calculator, and assuming hard granite:

Cratering energy is .6 tons (this might be conservative, given the fragmentation energy is 3.4 tons)

Melt energy is 2.6 kilotons, and vaporization energy is 13 kilotons.

Depends on the exct mechanism, really (we dont know the exact depth of hte crater - it could be deeper than it is wider.)

"Obliterating" a dozen men doesn't tell us much, but if we speculativley assume they were vaporized (rather the water content was (and assuming an 80 kg male) we could assume between 120-140 MJ per man, for a grand total of 1.7 GJ (his is a lower limit, since only part of the energy would be involved in "obliterating" the men. If we assume total cremation it might be as high as 12 GJ, depending on how inefficient we are talking.

Note that a 15 meter hole might also suggest a 15 meter diameter fireball, which would suggest 100-200 tons of energy (a very VERY rough guesstimate, at best.) If we have some idea of the distancec of the men from the point of impact, that might provide a clue.

Ghostmaker, pg. 260
At another place, in a dry creek bed, fourteen Basilisk self-propelled guns, their long barrels raised to the sky ready for bombardment, became lightning conductors. Electrocuted, the gun-crews danced and jerked, or melted onto the white-hot hulls for ten seconds before the combined munitions blew a square kilometer of jungle into the sky in a column of superheated energy and debris.

If we knew the mass of a Basilisk we might be able to estimate the energy involved from the hull temperature. Crew compliments known might allow us to estimate their effects.

As for the blast area, that's gonna depend heavily on alot of unknowns. It can be estimated frfom the mass of tanks and crew, and perhaps some guesstimates about the effect on the ground, but I'll wait on that until I can grab more data.

Incidentally, what weapon was it doing this?

The blast shook the hulking, hundred metre-high Imperial command Leviathan stationed sixteen kilometers back and threw the bridge crew to the deck.

If we knew the mass of the Leviathan (I know its somewhere, I'm too lazy to look though) we might estimate something.

On the Essene's dimensions:

Eisenhorn: Xenos, pg. 67:
The Essene was three kilometers long by my estimate, and fully seven hundred meters deep at its broadest part.

Is that a character literally commenting on the estimate of the ship? And what class of ship are we talking about? (potentail scaling cue, that)

I'm not sure what 700 meters "deep" means, I'm guessing height (vertical dimesnions rather than horizontal) but it could mean either.

This could be useful for deriving volume (and consequently, mass) estimates.

[Connor MacLeod]

In seconds, Urthwart became a victim of the aptly named Planet Killer - the world and all it had ever contained committed instantly to historyby this greatest of Abdaddon's Machineries.

Either it has an option to wipe out a planet less violently, or it's gotten one hell of an upgrade over the centuries since it was built.

Well its not quite specific about the destructive effects, and even by my conservative estimates the thing would be capable of wiping out all life on a planet in short order (note I do NOT consider "instantly" to be very rapid a timeframe.) In fact, all life would pretty much be wiped out fairly rapidly in a short timeframe before alot of the side effects were noted.

Note however as well that this weapon is not p urely "brute force" by most accounts, so it may also be that the technobabble/chain reaction aspect of the weapon may overtake the brute force examples in some cases. (Its not as if we're shorrt of "volatile-self exploding planets" examples, ie Nostramo.)

[Connor MacLeod]

So bolters are freakshly powerful, only we don't know how much?

Could they turn something in Stormy armor into scrambled eggs between momentum and KE?

If we're talking the "tossing around half a ton of person around like a rag doll" estimates than it might. Even if it doesn't penetrate, it probably would knock out if not kill the stormy in question (headshots would almost definitely kill). (of course, this is equivlaent to pounding said Stormy with a 30mm Avenger cannon/tank round, too, so that's not really a limitation.)

Though something more plausible for your average bolter (No, I don't consider that a normal example, unless you want to argue all bolters use reactionless propulsion, can hit their targets from miles away, and take out a modern MBT in a single shot..)