Avatar review thread

[Bakustra]

Why do you think it is a reasonable assumption that the security forces are an actual military? Furthermore, Shroom's point is that the gear they use is presumably "off-the-shelf" and going MECHANICAL COMPLEXITY LOL wouldn't change that.

[PeZook]

Especially when Jake outright states they're mercenaries paid by the company.

[Admiral Valdemar]

They weren't a military force, they were a PMC, the guidebook says as much. The cost of having to use technology that likely only the Terran governments would want being handled, along with the harsh conditions of Pandora (lower gravity, but the atmosphere is also toxic and far denser, hence the gunships had to have the angle on their contra-rotating rotors adjusted to compensate) meant we got the force we saw. The AMPs, gunships and sentry defences were all standard fare on Earth that was used on the frontline years before, but likely superseded by something more advanced by the time of the events in the film. Really, the Avatar project was the most advanced kit they had, it was just totally sidelined because no one but the biologists really cared for it given it was all for profit, not furthering scientific knowledge (ironic, given the Unobtanium is mainly used to superconducting designs producing better efficiency M/AM rockets and fusion reactors which certainly are down to such knowledge for the sake of knowledge mindset).

Remember, RDA operated the dozen or so ISVs along with the government, but they had sole control of the ops on Pandora and within the Alpha Centauri system itself. It's not like the Terran governments could send a huge force to keep tabs on them at the same time like one would in Iraq after the invasion, and I imagine they had their own problems given how fucked up Earth was.

[MKSheppard]

Over-the-horizon artillery in a dense forest. That seems like a brilliant idea for precision and accuracy!

Can people be this stupid?

Oh wait, they can.

We used artillery with precision in dense jungles and forests in World War II and Vietnam.

All you really need to do to make it work is set the contact fuzes to the appropriate delay before burst; so that when they strike the top of the jungle canopy, the fuzes go off at an appropriate level to cause shrapnel from the plant life.

Any diversion in the shell's paths caused by the trees is not going to be significant -- it will be on the orders of several meters to a dozen; compared to the other errors that can creep into the firing solution through variations in air temperature, gravity concentrations, wear of the barrel, etc.

[Bakustra]

Over-the-horizon artillery in a dense forest. That seems like a brilliant idea for precision and accuracy!

Can people be this stupid?

Oh wait, they can.

We used artillery with precision in dense jungles and forests in World War II and Vietnam.

All you really need to do to make it work is set the contact fuzes to the appropriate delay before burst; so that when they strike the top of the jungle canopy, the fuzes go off at an appropriate level to cause shrapnel from the plant life.

Any diversion in the shell's paths caused by the trees is not going to be significant -- it will be on the orders of several meters to a dozen; compared to the other errors that can creep into the firing solution through variations in air temperature, gravity concentrations, wear of the barrel, etc.

That was totally not my point, but you are incapable of doing anything other than babble out military trivia or masturbate to genocide, so I wouldn't expect you to respond with anything worth thinking about. However, for those of you with an IQ above freezing, my point involved targeting, not the trees impeding the shells. Of course, now you'll start babbling about how it's obvious that any space-age group should have eleven thousand radar units per square kilometer to ensure precise targeting of individual animals and small groups of aliens in a jungle.

[MKSheppard]

However, for those of you with an IQ above freezing, my point involved targeting, not the trees impeding the shells.

OH HOLY SHIT SON.

How the fuck did the US Army manage to use Artillery efficiently in World War II in dense european forests, dense triple canopy jungle in Burma; and then later in Vietnam?

It's called fire by co-ordinates.

"Able Fox Five. This is Fox Two. I have a indigenous line of warriors approaching me through the forest. Requesting fire onto grid coordinate five bravo three, linear pattern, [insert fuze setting]. Over."

"On the way, Fox Two."

*ranging shots explode*

"Able Fox Five, adjust left by fifty and fire for effect."

[DudeGuyMan]

They didn't even need to destroy the magic tree. Seriously, they're up against a "horde" of spear-wielding natives on their way to "overrun" them. They have satellite intel, a week's notice, and a huge fleet of attack helicopters. Colonel Psychobeef's briefing should have basically been "LOL guys, guess what these retards are planning! Prepare for Operation: Week Long Turkey Shoot!"

[MKSheppard]

They didn't even need to destroy the magic tree. Seriously, they're up against a "horde" of spear-wielding natives on their way to "overrun" them. They have satellite intel, a week's notice, and a huge fleet of attack helicopters. Colonel Psychobeef's briefing should have basically been "LOL guys, guess what these retards are planning! Prepare for Operation: Week Long Turkey Shoot!"

Well, it's even more insidiously fun than that.

1.) Don't do anything; let Jakesully build up his huge force of 2,000 warriors armed with bows and arrows to attack your main base.

2.) Use the heavy machinery to clear a field of fire out for several hundred feet around your huge fort walls; and have the weapons turrets you have on the base be manned 24/7.

3.) When the na'vi attack; send forth the 200 ton haulbots and heavy machinery. We know that they can resist navi arrows to their wheels; we know they can easily knock down triple canopy jungle (that is no mean feat). Crush the Navi under your bright yellow construction machinery while laughing manically.

If Mother Nature Spirit herself intervenes; what's a bunch of rhinos going to do against a 200 ton haulbot? Ding the paint some?

[Bakustra]

However, for those of you with an IQ above freezing, my point involved targeting, not the trees impeding the shells.

OH HOLY SHIT SON.

How the fuck did the US Army manage to use Artillery efficiently in World War II in dense european forests, dense triple canopy jungle in Burma; and then later in Vietnam?

It's called fire by co-ordinates.

"Able Fox Five. This is Fox Two. I have a indigenous line of warriors approaching me through the forest. Requesting fire onto grid coordinate five bravo three, linear pattern, [insert fuze setting]. Over."

"On the way, Fox Two."

*ranging shots explode*

"Able Fox Five, adjust left by fifty and fire for effect."

So in your little brain, there is no actual obstruction of sight involved in a forest, that would make accurately picking out targets (since they would not actually plan for the Na'vi attacking en masse) a difficult prospect for spotters and thus make artillery far less effective? You also neglect to provide the efficiencies involved in forest actions, but that is understandable. Logistics would run into the problem that RDA would prefer a more efficient means of security than "kill 'em all, damn the budget overruns".

You also decided to ignore the points people made against you earlier. Why are you even participating in this thread if you're going to be dishonest about it?

[MKSheppard]

So in your little brain, there is no actual obstruction of sight involved in a forest, that would make accurately picking out targets (since they would not actually plan for the Na'vi attacking en masse) a difficult prospect for spotters and thus make artillery far less effective?

Wow, guess what?

The Army didn't have a problem with that in Vietnam.

It would be even easier since your opponents are 12 foot high bright blue cat people -- which is not exactly the same thing as a bunch of 4.5 foot vietcong walking around in black pajamas as far as camouflage goes.

Logistics would run into the problem that RDA would prefer a more efficient means of security than "kill 'em all, damn the budget overruns".

Explosives aren't a problem -- look at the fact they're running a open pit mine -- that needs lots of explosives -- and can afford to put huge crates of the crap onto the SSTO. Metal isn't exactly a problem -- sure, your artillery shells won't go as long or be as accurate as the earth made ones; but eh who cares.

The biggest problem I'd see is fuzes -- just how complex and how small can they make something on Pandora before they have to send for a replacement from Earth? And even if they ARE shipping them from earth -- a couple boxes of fuzes is going to be quite quite a lot of fuzes.

[MKSheppard]

You appear to believe that RDA had been planning the war for years and years, sufficiently enough time that they could have built up a massive fixed-wing air force, an armored detachment, Agent Orange deposits, or whatever else your fevered, violent brain can throw up.

Actually, he makes a lot of sense.

1.) Fixed wing aircraft would be cheaper to operate and run than tilt-discs; fly further, fly faster, and higher. Yes, they would need a runway, but you already built a bunch of super massive runways for the SSTO craft to takeoff and land from in your main base.

2.) Armored detachment makes sense. It's a myth that tanks can't operate in jungle. Armored operations by both sides in Vietnam disproved that. It wouldn't have to be a whole tank battalion, just a tank company operating knockoff vehicles from the Third Indo-Chinese War; in case you have to go out past the wire at night -- and need something a little less obvious and destructive than a 200 ton haulbot. And all the haulbots might be constantly in need for moving mine tailings anyway.

3.) Agent Orange. Uh, why the fuck not? You're in a constant battle to keep the jungle from encroaching on your base; why waste precious fuel and wear on your vehicles constantly scraping away the jungle when you can have some Tilt-Discs fly and spray the area around your base? Sure you wouldn't have massive quantities of the stuff, but you'd have it.

The thing is -- the stuff that lives on Pandora from giant rhino things, merciless swarms of dog analogues, giant flying dragons that HAET you, etc all sort of would lead to a investment in hardening the base and purchasing this kind of equipment.

This isn't some peaceful great plains style planet where the meanest thing out there is a dog-sized ferret that likes to crawl into burrows and eat giant overgrown burrowing rodents. It's full of really big things that are very large and dangerous.

I believe that in the novelization of Jurassic Park; Muldoon actually asked Hammond for antitank rockets to deal with the dinos -- and that cheapskate corporate gran-pa turned him down. The same logic would apply here on Pandora; except that unlike Jurassic Park; the animals aren't corporate clones grown at great cost, but wild beasts that want to eat you.

[Bakustra]

So in your little brain, there is no actual obstruction of sight involved in a forest, that would make accurately picking out targets (since they would not actually plan for the Na'vi attacking en masse) a difficult prospect for spotters and thus make artillery far less effective?

Wow, guess what?

The Army didn't have a problem with that in Vietnam.

It would be even easier since your opponents are 12 foot high bright blue cat people -- which is not exactly the same thing as a bunch of 4.5 foot vietcong walking around in black pajamas as far as camouflage goes.

Prove it. Provide statistics of guaranteed kills per shells fired. You know, evidence? Further, the Na'vi aren't really that poorly camouflaged from what we can see in the movie. Nor would they move in large groups.

Logistics would run into the problem that RDA would prefer a more efficient means of security than "kill 'em all, damn the budget overruns".

Explosives aren't a problem -- look at the fact they're running a open pit mine -- that needs lots of explosives -- and can afford to put huge crates of the crap onto the SSTO. Metal isn't exactly a problem -- sure, your artillery shells won't go as long or be as accurate as the earth made ones; but eh who cares.

The biggest problem I'd see is fuzes -- just how complex and how small can they make something on Pandora before they have to send for a replacement from Earth? And even if they ARE shipping them from earth -- a couple boxes of fuzes is going to be quite quite a lot of fuzes.

Wow, dishonesty and stupidity in the same post! Now if only you were glorifying genocide at the same time, we could have a trifecta!

My point is that all the resources that you pour into your defenses are being taken away from mining, especially locking the base down altogether. Selfridge only went along with Quaritch's plan because he was assured by Quaritch it was fast and would end the Na'vi problem. If you have a lengthy plan that essentially forfeits any mining operations for the time between the gathering of the Na'vi, and any hypothetical attack (note that Sully was convinced that Quaritch would go after the Tree of Souls), then he is less likely to approve your plan. They were able to put the explosives in, because that was a single-use expenditure, after which they could then resume mining operations. But hey! Don't let logistics stop you!

And of course, you ignore anybody who calls you out on your dishonest tactics. Predictable.

You appear to believe that RDA had been planning the war for years and years, sufficiently enough time that they could have built up a massive fixed-wing air force, an armored detachment, Agent Orange deposits, or whatever else your fevered, violent brain can throw up.

Actually, he makes a lot of sense.

1.) Fixed wing aircraft would be cheaper to operate and run than tilt-discs; fly further, fly faster, and higher. Yes, they would need a runway, but you already built a bunch of super massive runways for the SSTO craft to takeoff and land from in your main base.

2.) Armored detachment makes sense. It's a myth that tanks can't operate in jungle. Armored operations by both sides in Vietnam disproved that. It wouldn't have to be a whole tank battalion, just a tank company operating knockoff vehicles from the Third Indo-Chinese War; in case you have to go out past the wire at night -- and need something a little less obvious and destructive than a 200 ton haulbot. And all the haulbots might be constantly in need for moving mine tailings anyway.

3.) Agent Orange. Uh, why the fuck not? You're in a constant battle to keep the jungle from encroaching on your base; why waste precious fuel and wear on your vehicles constantly scraping away the jungle when you can have some Tilt-Discs fly and spray the area around your base? Sure you wouldn't have massive quantities of the stuff, but you'd have it.

Can you actually read or have you just been pretending all these years? The point is that they would have to build these up over years, either by buying blueprints from Earth, or the actual vehicles themselves, under government scrutiny. It requires RDA having decided to murder all the Na'vi literally years ago, which is completely inconsistent with the actual film, rather than the one that you made up.

Finally, with regards to Agent Orange, I think that the health effects would outweigh the benefits, especially once the Na'vi start giving birth to horribly deformed babies and for the long-term health of the security forces. Granted, you probably deep-throat Dow on this issue, but whatever.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The Valkyrie SSTOs don't use runways, they're entirely VTOL and can afford to be when they have fusion as a powersource (most likely) for the turbines when in atmosphere.

[MKSheppard]

Further, the Na'vi aren't really that poorly camouflaged from what we can see in the movie. Nor would they move in large groups.

Did we even fucking watch the same movie? The huge human wave attacks of Na'vi fighting the huge human wave attacks of the Marines on the ground? I guess you must be fucking blind.

Wow, dishonesty and stupidity in the same post!

How so? I pointed out that

1.) The explosives you need to make the artillery shells are available cheaply in bulk on Pandora, because they're running a freaking open pit mine, and have huge pallets of the stuff sitting around conviently to shove onto cargo craft.

2.) The metal to make the shells aren't a problem, because a lot of other things are made on pandora itself.

3.) The only real problem I can foresee are the fuzes themselves, which are really relatively complex -- but I guess that the company can manufacture them on the planet themselves -- it would just have to be simple contact/time fuzes which rely on burning primer rather than a complex clockwork device. The shells would have a high dud rate, and wouldn't be as precise in their timing, but it would work.

My point is that all the resources that you pour into your defenses are being taken away from mining, especially locking the base down altogether.

Um what? Did we even watch the same fucking movie?

The goddamn base itself is already a fort. You have giant walls, you have watchtowers armed with weapons -- you already have a fucking air force armed with all sorts of weaponry. That did not happen because Pandora is a mystical place where everything lives in Harmony.

It's like that because there are lots of mean creatures on Pandora that FUCKING WANT TO KILL YOU AND EAT YOU.

To quoth Quaritch:

"Out there, beyond that fence, every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for Jujubes."

Selfridge only went along with Quaritch's plan because he was assured by Quaritch it was fast and would end the Na'vi problem.

We've already established that Selfridge and Quaritch are fucking morons in how they plan and carry out operations.

If you have a lengthy plan that essentially forfeits any mining operations for the time between the gathering of the Na'vi, and any hypothetical attack (note that Sully was convinced that Quaritch would go after the Tree of Souls), then he is less likely to approve your plan.

If Unobtanium is so valuable, then they can afford a shutdown.

It's not like there are other places that can supply unobtanium -- remember as far as we know, Pandora is the only source. So if you shut down the mining operation briefly, guess what? Unobtanium goes up in price.

And due to the long intervals it takes to carry out a single one way trip in the ISVs, there are likely to be a relatively huge stockpile of refined unobtanium sitting around waiting for the next ISV to visit; to ensure a steady supply, so that the ISVs can maintain their tight schedule, instead of waiting for the mine to produce a couple hundred more tons of Unobtanium.

Besides, a shutdown means you can catch up with deferred maintenance to the vehicles, give everyone a chance to catch their breath, etc.

They were able to put the explosives in, because that was a single-use expenditure, after which they could then resume mining operations. But hey! Don't let logistics stop you!

In a typical open pit mine, like you see in the opening fly-in sequence, you can use up 200 tons of explosive in a single blasting round.

The explosives consumption for the planned "lets bomb the shrine from orbit" is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

And of course, you ignore anybody who calls you out on your dishonest tactics. Predictable.

So applying basic military tactics and some critical thinking is dishonest? I'd sure like to know what you think are honest tactics? Maybe you like watching a bunch of idiots charge each other, both in human waves, but I don't.

Can you actually read or have you just been pretending all these years? The point is that they would have to build these up over years

Except that you know, the entire mining operation etc has been in service for more than just five years?

either by buying blueprints from Earth, or the actual vehicles themselves, under government scrutiny.

Are you this fucking stupid?

All they have to do is buy some piston or turboprop trainers so that fixed wing pilots can keep their licenses current while on Pandora, and justify it under:

"We would like to carry out some intensive mineral survey work. Currently it costs $x cost an hour to operate a Tilt-Disc to conduct a survey on x square miles of land. We estimate that a fixed wing STOL craft will cost 35% less to operate, and cover 50% more area in the same amount of time and cost."

*somewhere someone rubberstamps that as APPROVED*

And for heavy armored vehicles?

You can go like:

"Due to recent operations in grid square A214, we have come across SuperRhinos (see enclosure 12A for autopsy). The animal absorbed several hundred rifle rounds and no less than two anti armor rockets before finally expiring."

"Scientific tests recently concluded have shown that Superrhinos when sufficiently agitated can deliver x amount of force against an object."

"Therefore, I request permission to build/buy plans to the Israeli Namer APC (their new APC built on a Merkava tank chassis), equipped with a 40mm case telescoped remote weapons station to enable us to operate outside our base during inclement weather or times of darkness."

"If we had had one of these two months ago, then Scientific Team #23 would not have been lost with all hands after their Scorpion went down 60 klicks away from our base after suffering engine failure. Initial radio reports showed that four personnel survived the crash, and were alive; but had been killed by the wildlife by the time conditions had improved enough for us to send a CASEVAC/SAR bird at first light."


Interior of Namer

It requires RDA having decided to murder all the Na'vi literally years ago, which is completely inconsistent with the actual film, rather than the one that you made up.

By your logic, the RDA shouldn't have had:


Look at how many weapon systems that thing has!

Oh, and look at the angular canopies. That's the clear sign of armored transparencies.


FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH

But they do, because they asked for it and got it; because....wait for it.

PANDORA IS FUCKING DANGEROUS

Quoth Quaritch again:

"Out there, beyond that fence, every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for Jujubes."

Finally, with regards to Agent Orange, I think that the health effects would outweigh the benefits, especially once the Na'vi start giving birth to horribly deformed babies and for the long-term health of the security forces.

Incorrect.

Agent Orange has shown no statistically appreciable increase in long term cancer or health of the people who handled it.

The Operation RANCH HANDERS handled the stuff in it's concentrated form; even drank the stuff raw straight from the tanks as an initation rite; handled the stuff when it was leaking around in the cargo bays of their C-123s after they had been shot up by ground fire eleven billion times; yet they suffered no statistical increase of cancer; despite having an exposure level several times greater than that of the ground troops, who only encountered it in diluted form.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Actually, I doubt the fuses would be tricky either. The computers on base likely have tech drawings for complex electronic and electro-mechanical components for use within maintaining the various vehicles already being used. Even if this data wasn't present (doubtful), they could always request it be sent on the next ISV, or even instantly via the FTL comms, though that may prove inefficient given how expensive and slow it is to use the quantum trickery to send even one bit of information superluminally.

Agent Orange would be a good idea, though this is fully reliant on Terran biology. We already know that most of Pandora is fucking terrifying, and the plantlife is no doubt far hardier than anything in Vietnam, so a different agent may be needed, or you can use napalm or Daisy Cutters along with the mining vehicles to clear and keep clearing a perimeter. They likely didn't do this around Hell's Gate because those machines are essential to the mining op, and so were tasked with raking in the profits rather than further securing the base of ops.

I'm unsure if they flew many CAS missions using the Scorpions or Samsons, since the 'dozers seemed to be attacked anyway and tensions were rising, but not to the point of out and out warfare, which we only get once Sully has made his switching of sides. Before then, the Na'vi were just a nuisance to be handled with kiddie globes until the required time of action. Neither Administrator Selfridge, nor Colonel Quaritch expected such heavy resistance and Sully to turn on them, even after treating him and Grace's team like shit. Had they been smarter about this, they'd never have had to deal with Eywa's rallying, with Jake, of the far off Na'vi tribes and every possible creature on that continent. As competent as the defence garrison could be, they simply were outmatched like the garrison at Rorke's Drift, even with superior weaponry.

However, the idea of using the Valkyrie to fly well over 10,000 ft and do a high level drop by hovering over the primary target, would've made more sense. I presume there were other reasons for why they had to negotiate the Hallelujah Mountains at such a height.

[Bakustra]

Hey, guess what? You are still making plans dependent on essentially unlimited control of the base and resources. Furthermore, you're presuming that the open-pit mine is still a major part of their production, which does not seem likely, given that they diverted their excavators towards the Home Tree and put them out of commission for weeks. I seriously doubt that they were conducting significant mining in the mine by the base at that point.

Further, the Na'vi aren't really that poorly camouflaged from what we can see in the movie. Nor would they move in large groups.

Did we even fucking watch the same movie? The huge human wave attacks of Na'vi fighting the huge human wave attacks of the Marines on the ground? I guess you must be fucking blind.

You mean after the Marines attacked the Na'vi? Wow, that's totally emblematic of the standard tactics that the Na'vi would use, you're right, it's not as though this was deliberately set up as a last-ditch maneuver to keep the Tree of Souls from being blown up. You're right about everything, President Carter, as usual!

Wow, dishonesty and stupidity in the same post!

How so? I pointed out that

1.) The explosives you need to make the artillery shells are available cheaply in bulk on Pandora, because they're running a freaking open pit mine, and have huge pallets of the stuff sitting around conviently to shove onto cargo craft.

2.) The metal to make the shells aren't a problem, because a lot of other things are made on pandora itself.

3.) The only real problem I can foresee are the fuzes themselves, which are really relatively complex -- but I guess that the company can manufacture them on the planet themselves -- it would just have to be simple contact/time fuzes which rely on burning primer rather than a complex clockwork device. The shells would have a high dud rate, and wouldn't be as precise in their timing, but it would work.

Would it kill your remaining half of a brain cell to use goddamn paragraphs? My actual points are below this. Beellloooow. Not above, not within, below.

My point is that all the resources that you pour into your defenses are being taken away from mining, especially locking the base down altogether.

Um what? Did we even watch the same fucking movie?

The goddamn base itself is already a fort. You have giant walls, you have watchtowers armed with weapons -- you already have a fucking air force armed with all sorts of weaponry. That did not happen because Pandora is a mystical place where everything lives in Harmony.

It's like that because there are lots of mean creatures on Pandora that FUCKING WANT TO KILL YOU AND EAT YOU.

To quoth Quaritch:

"Out there, beyond that fence, every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for Jujubes."

Hey, you know what? They still conduct operations outside of the base! That's what those excavators are doing, that's why the pilots get regular rotation, and you are talking about a major buildup, you liar. You see, those are already there. Your proposed buildup, is not. It would, therefore, take time and money away from the actual mining that is going on. I realize that your grasp of economics is matched only by your grasp of human decency, but you should be aware that resources are not actually infinite.

Selfridge only went along with Quaritch's plan because he was assured by Quaritch it was fast and would end the Na'vi problem.

We've already established that Selfridge and Quaritch are fucking morons in how they plan and carry out operations.

If you have a lengthy plan that essentially forfeits any mining operations for the time between the gathering of the Na'vi, and any hypothetical attack (note that Sully was convinced that Quaritch would go after the Tree of Souls), then he is less likely to approve your plan.

If Unobtanium is so valuable, then they can afford a shutdown.

It's not like there are other places that can supply unobtanium -- remember as far as we know, Pandora is the only source. So if you shut down the mining operation briefly, guess what? Unobtanium goes up in price.

And due to the long intervals it takes to carry out a single one way trip in the ISVs, there are likely to be a relatively huge stockpile of refined unobtanium sitting around waiting for the next ISV to visit; to ensure a steady supply, so that the ISVs can maintain their tight schedule, instead of waiting for the mine to produce a couple hundred more tons of Unobtanium.

Besides, a shutdown means you can catch up with deferred maintenance to the vehicles, give everyone a chance to catch their breath, etc.

Prove it. Prove that it would be economical to shut down. Pandora is a costly project, seeing as they have to maintain that fleet of spaceships, and so you have to prove that disruptions, especially extended ones such as what you are proposing would result in, would be economical for RDA. If they aren't, then Selfridge shoots you down, and you kinda need his support, unless you're planning to murder him and take control for yourself. See, if you shut down the mining operation in the way you're proposing, you have to shut it down for an extended period, since the Na'vi are not going to just come to you, unlike what Quaritch used to scare the security officers into thinking, and they can, with Jake and the chopper pilot providing assistance, inflict serious damage to the excavators by smashing their sensory equipment. So you have to shut things down until you can hunt them down.

They were able to put the explosives in, because that was a single-use expenditure, after which they could then resume mining operations. But hey! Don't let logistics stop you!

In a typical open pit mine, like you see in the opening fly-in sequence, you can use up 200 tons of explosive in a single blasting round.

The explosives consumption for the planned "lets bomb the shrine from orbit" is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

And that mine is so profitable that they sent their excavators on a month-long trek to reach the Home Tree. Yeah, I'm sure it's running at peak capacity.

And of course, you ignore anybody who calls you out on your dishonest tactics. Predictable.

So applying basic military tactics and some critical thinking is dishonest? I'd sure like to know what you think are honest tactics? Maybe you like watching a bunch of idiots charge each other, both in human waves, but I don't.

I am talking about your hideous habit of ignoring when people respond to you with arguments that you don't think you can counter. I am now referring to your habit of apparently deciding to twist whatever people say into something that supports your argument. I don't know why anybody takes you seriously, given that you pull this same set of rabbits out of your hat every single time.

Can you actually read or have you just been pretending all these years? The point is that they would have to build these up over years

Except that you know, the entire mining operation etc has been in service for more than just five years?

So now you're in charge at the beginning of the mining operation? Well then, you can just put the Na'vi in concentration camps and experiment on them before they know what's happening. There's no need for all this mummery about weapons systems when you can just let everybody know how hard you get at the thought of genocide.

For a reasonable person, there's no need to set up the conditions to piss off the Na'vi if we are in control starting at the very beginning of the project. We can just not be driven by shortsighted greed then. Of course, reasonable has never been a adjective capable of describing you, but I thought a little taste of reality could help.

either by buying blueprints from Earth, or the actual vehicles themselves, under government scrutiny.

Are you this fucking stupid?

All they have to do is buy some piston or turboprop trainers so that fixed wing pilots can keep their licenses current while on Pandora, and justify it under:

"We would like to carry out some intensive mineral survey work. Currently it costs $x cost an hour to operate a Tilt-Disc to conduct a survey on x square miles of land. We estimate that a fixed wing STOL craft will cost 35% less to operate, and cover 50% more area in the same amount of time and cost."

*somewhere someone rubberstamps that as APPROVED*

Yes, I can certainly see how fraud for the purposes of committing a crime will never have ill effects! That's all that really needs to be said to this, since you appear to be incapable of understanding anything more complex.

And for heavy armored vehicles?

You can go like:

"Due to recent operations in grid square A214, we have come across SuperRhinos (see enclosure 12A for autopsy). The animal absorbed several hundred rifle rounds and no less than two anti armor rockets before finally expiring."

"Scientific tests recently concluded have shown that Superrhinos when sufficiently agitated can deliver x amount of force against an object."

"Therefore, I request permission to build/buy plans to the Israeli Namer APC (their new APC built on a Merkava tank chassis), equipped with a 40mm case telescoped remote weapons station to enable us to operate outside our base during inclement weather or times of darkness."

"If we had had one of these two months ago, then Scientific Team #23 would not have been lost with all hands after their Scorpion went down 60 klicks away from our base after suffering engine failure. Initial radio reports showed that four personnel survived the crash, and were alive; but had been killed by the wildlife by the time conditions had improved enough for us to send a CASEVAC/SAR bird at first light."

*snip that totally unnecessary picture*

More fraud! Well, it's either fraud or you apparently think that you can make things up and not get called on it. Furthermore, you're apparently of the belief that the world of Avatar is necessarily as corrupt as the modern world. A hint: you may not want to reveal your fantasies of running Halliburton in public, especially when they are this sexualized.

It requires RDA having decided to murder all the Na'vi literally years ago, which is completely inconsistent with the actual film, rather than the one that you made up.

By your logic, the RDA shouldn't have had:

*snip good ol' Shep picspam*
Look at how many weapon systems that thing has!

Oh, and look at the angular canopies. That's the clear sign of armored transparencies.

*snip bad new Shep picspam*
FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH

But they do, because they asked for it and got it; because....wait for it.

PANDORA IS FUCKING DANGEROUS
(font reduced because you're a wanker)
Quoth Quaritch again:

"Out there, beyond that fence, every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for Jujubes."

Hell yeah! Character dialogue is 1000% accurate, as we have enshrined in the rules of debate! Woo! Hordes of armored vehicles and a planned Na'vi genocide are totally equivalent to a single transport and a number of smaller gunships and transports! Yeeha! Yeeha! It's not like there could be reasons for having armed aircraft that don't apply to having an entire armored regiment and mechanized brigade!

Finally, with regards to Agent Orange, I think that the health effects would outweigh the benefits, especially once the Na'vi start giving birth to horribly deformed babies and for the long-term health of the security forces.

Incorrect.

Agent Orange has shown no statistically appreciable increase in long term cancer or health of the people who handled it.

The Operation RANCH HANDERS handled the stuff in it's concentrated form; even drank the stuff raw straight from the tanks as an initation rite; handled the stuff when it was leaking around in the cargo bays of their C-123s after they had been shot up by ground fire eleven billion times; yet they suffered no statistical increase of cancer; despite having an exposure level several times greater than that of the ground troops, who only encountered it in diluted form.

I see that you do deep-throat Dow on this matter. Unsurprising, oh yes indeedy. The Department of Veteran's Affairs, Dow Chemical Company, BASF, and indeed basic pathological chemistry all disagree with you. But don't let that stop you from puking forth anecdotes so you can cover up your habit of masturbating to the thought of people being born with horribly misshapen bodies.

[Zor]

The thing about agent orange is that it might not work on Pandoran plants. The natives live in an atmosphere thats toxic to humans and i am pretty sure that they can't even eat human food (They were growing Pandoran Vegtables and fruit outside for the Avatars to eat, it would have been a waste of effort to do so they could simply feed them what the miners and marines were dining on), all of which points to a rather diferent set of internal chemestry.

Zor

[Bakustra]

The thing about agent orange is that it might not work on Pandoran plants. The natives live in an atmosphere thats toxic to humans and i am pretty sure that they can't even eat human food (They were growing Pandoran Vegtables and fruit outside for the Avatars to eat, it would have been a waste of effort to do so they could simply feed them what the miners and marines were dining on), all of which points to a rather diferent set of internal chemestry.

Zor

There are probably herbicides that would work, (by attacking the chloroplasts if nothing else) but I initially brought up Agent Orange to evoke the idea of Vietnam in response to Sarevokerritch's ideas (thanks Shroom), and Shep decided to rush in and make a mountain out of that molehill while simultaneously giving handjobs to the entire board of directors of Dow Chemical Company.

[Knife]

shep, it is entirely likely that Quaritch was just fucking nuts. Sure,the jungle was a dangerous place even without pissed off natives, but then again science teams were going into it regularly without huge armed escorts (escorts? sure, not huge platoon sized teams though). From his safety briefing in the beginning of the film, it is clear that he got fucked up pretty early on his Pandora experience and holds it against the planet.

[DudeGuyMan]

Is there some logical reason that a company would be allowed to have a fleet of attack helicopters and a flying god damn battleship armed with cannons and missiles, but prohibited from owning fixed-wing aircraft or ground vehicles armed the same way?

Edit: Though if Pandora has an insect population comparable to that of Earth and they're included in the Eywa deus ex machina, that's pretty much auto-win for Team Hippie if the humans do anything less than sterilize the planet.

[Shroom Man 777]

Turns out the RDA was using pre-existing sci-fi designs, like sci-fi VTOL birds and sci-fi walkers (now given guns), because that tech was currently available in the 40th millennium (the future) and that tech turned out to be also reliable and redundant compared to other tech currently available in the 40th millennium

I love the argument that they're operating on a long supply base, and are using cheap and simple designs etc.

There's nothing cheap about those AMPSUITS from a mechanical perspective. They're the kind of thing you start to mess with if you have a lot of cash/materials/etc to burn to support.

In the 40th millennium their gundamechajapanimango mechanoids have wings and can do space karate and can wield space swords. The AMPSUITS are relatively simpler than the Gundams used in the 40th millennium and are also far more robust and reliable. And apparently AMPSUITS are their standard load-lifting machines, ala the loadlifter in Aliens.

Would it have bothered you instead if they used ugly forklifts, with visible vulnerable windshields, but jerry-rigged to have machineguns mounted on them instead? Would you have been happier if, in the ending fight, Sarevokerritch instead jumped off the Dragon while riding an air-deployable armed forklift, and engaged Neytiri and the xeno-panther in said forklift? And if Jake Sully had his knife fight against Sarevokerritch riding in an armed forklift, instead of an AMPSUIT?

Because apparently in the 40th millennium, AMPSUITS = forklifts and are that simple for those guys.

OH FUCK WHY ARE AMERICAN ASSHOLES IN IRAQ DRIVING AROUND WITH WANKY HUMVEES THAT HAVE CONVENIENT VULNERABLE GLASS WINDSHIELDS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO BROWN PEOPLE WITH FIREARMS CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR!

OH FUCK, WHY ARE STAS BUSHES FLYING AROUND IN HELOCOPTERS WHICH HAVE CONVENIENT TRANSPARENT WINDSHIELDS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY SO BROWN PEOPLE WITH FIREARMS CAN DISABLE THE OPERATOR?

http://i44.tinypic.com/10nxms6.jpg

For those of you who have no idea what you're looking at, this is a MI-28 HAVOC put on the firing range to gauge the effectiveness of it's armor scheme.

Despite the fact the armored transparencies were designed to stop 7.62mm and 12.7mm rounds plus 20mm shell fragments; it offered pretty good resistance to full up autocannon rounds striking it.

Sure, the pilot is effectively blind through that transparency, due to the starring, and he's probably wounded by some fragments that have spalled off the interior side of the transparency -- but he's alive, as opposed to taking a 20mm HEI round in the FACE.

WHY THE FUCK CAN'T OUR FABRICATORS MAKE BULLET PROOF GLASS?

These troops, on the back of the Dragon (and SSTO), were able to kill the fuck out of the Na'vi just fine.

So why were they there?

I mean, even helicopters on Earth with heavier gravity, have service ceilings at or beyond 15,000 feet -- that's the point where if you want to breathe, you start sucking in supplemental oxygen in masks, or you pass out.

Fly high altitude to the target site at 300+ MPH, with people in the cockpits looking out with binoculars for the holy shrine -- it's not like they didn't know where it was -- they had visual feed from Jake's Avatar telling them where it was.

Once you've identified the target site, drop to low altitude, slow to 10 m/sec, drop the bomb, and go home -- this assumes that we go with the original "push things out the back on pallet" attack method.

Don't crawl towards the target at walking speed the whole time.

Something-something bigass flying mountains, poor visibility, something-something flux vortex.

Also, Jake Sully's Avatar's visual feed was on the HOME TREE. Jake's Avatar, at the Soul Tree, was operating from the rogue renegade runaway trailer - independent of the RDA guys.

(SNIP)

I think you missed the whole point Sarevok was making. This is 2154. So why does everyone operate in a tactical manner or operate vehicles that would be able to be defeated by military technology that's 50 years out of date today, much less 200 years out of date by the time of Avatar?

Because the RDA is a security force and NOT a military, though it employs a few military-grade weapons systems (gunships) and some jerry-rigged weaponized forklift equivalents (AMPSUITS)? That's like asking why Blackwater operates in a tactical manner or operates shitty SUVs and MRAPs that would be defeated by Tiger tanks, much less 21st century weapons systems by the time of Hurt Locker.

I mean, the only thing they have that's genuinely a game changer is the SSTO transport....but they never use it like anyone with a brain would; and instead use it as a sloooooooow 10 m/sec craft crawling towards it's target.

And really, if they can afford to ship or build 200 ton hauler robot trucks in Alpha Centauri, they can afford to ship a couple of heavily armored Merkava-style APCs for airfield security -- you could even sell it as a "safe method to remove pilots from a crashed SSTO", because when the fuel in something that big goes up, it'll make a nice bang. And a tank would be able to survive the blast, as opposed to a jeep.

Even today, NASA uses APCs for this purpose, to send firefighting and recovery teams to the shuttle launch pads, to recover the astronauts in case of a very big fire/explosion.

Turns out such a vehicle would NOT be air-deployable by gunship or Dragon, and wouldn't see any action when the RDA sent its forces at the Soul Tree?

Also, it turns out that what the guys in Pandora want or need to prosecute a full scale war against the Na'vi might NOT be what the execs on Earth (who determine what gets sent to Pandora, and what the guys in Pandora CAN and CAN'T have) have in mind since they may not exactly see the exact situation in the exact same way as the Sarevokeritches and Shepridges stationed in far away Pandora?

Maybe Sarevokeritch and Shepridge DID file an order for tanks and artillery and MiG-21s to the RDA's Earth base, but RDA CEO Shroomnamara told them "STRAK STRAK STRAK... request denied... STRAK STRAK STRAK!", hmmm?

That entire sequence just struck me as totally retarded.

Okay sure, we're going to take our gunships right under the tree canopy in what is probably triple layer jungle on crack, and manouver in said jungle. That's a recipe for super high accidents, you'd slam into trees, ding your rotor discs on trees, or get vines sucked into the intakes...unless you moved really slowly.

Unless scientists can jump off a helicopter, and do what the Na'vi did and soften their falls by hitting trees and leaves with their faces, then you will need the VTOLs to drop scientists and troops into the jungle. You will also need to drop troops underneath the tree cover, if you want them to shoot any scurrying Na'vi who might use the cover of the jungle to avoid the gunships?

Remember, before the events of the movie, the RDA and the Na'vi were NOT at war.

Does Blackwater suddenly get armed with Katyushas today?

The way I read it was that it was an actual military that was operating with the company -- in the same manner that the USMC did operate in conjunction with various Fruit Companies in the 1920s-1930s to set up BANANA REPUBLICS.

[/quote]

They were mercs, man. They employed heavily from former Marine Corps types, but they were totally all mercs.

Can people be this stupid?

Oh wait, they can.

We used artillery with precision in dense jungles and forests in World War II and Vietnam.

All you really need to do to make it work is set the contact fuzes to the appropriate delay before burst; so that when they strike the top of the jungle canopy, the fuzes go off at an appropriate level to cause shrapnel from the plant life.

Any diversion in the shell's paths caused by the trees is not going to be significant -- it will be on the orders of several meters to a dozen; compared to the other errors that can creep into the firing solution through variations in air temperature, gravity concentrations, wear of the barrel, etc.

OH HOLY SHIT SON.

How the fuck did the US Army manage to use Artillery efficiently in World War II in dense european forests, dense triple canopy jungle in Burma; and then later in Vietnam?

It's called fire by co-ordinates.

"Able Fox Five. This is Fox Two. I have a indigenous line of warriors approaching me through the forest. Requesting fire onto grid coordinate five bravo three, linear pattern, [insert fuze setting]. Over."

"On the way, Fox Two."

*ranging shots explode*

"Able Fox Five, adjust left by fifty and fire for effect."

Hey Shep. What if the Na'vi are actually VERY VERY FAR from your base and out of range of your artillery? Maybe you would actually need to build forward bases for the artillery? Then you might need the fucking gunships and the Dragon to TRANSPORT your artillery pieces above the jungle, and drop them to the artillery site? Then you would need to use your gunships and Dragons to TRANSPORT infantry to scurry under the jungle to act as forward spotters for the artillery, since you can't shoot your artillery at the Na'vi if you can't see them from the air so you'd need guys to scurry IN the jungle to actually SEE the Na'vi and target them for the artillery?

This is also ignoring the fact that WHY WOULD THE RDA BRING ARTILLERY IN THE FIRST PLACE? The intention was never to go to war, until the Sarevokerritches and the Shepridges went bugfuck nuts, so this is WHY they were never issued more gear than those transport utility VTOLs that had self-defense weaponry.

Well, it's even more insidiously fun than that.

1.) Don't do anything; let Jakesully build up his huge force of 2,000 warriors armed with bows and arrows to attack your main base.

2.) Use the heavy machinery to clear a field of fire out for several hundred feet around your huge fort walls; and have the weapons turrets you have on the base be manned 24/7.

3.) When the na'vi attack; send forth the 200 ton haulbots and heavy machinery. We know that they can resist navi arrows to their wheels; we know they can easily knock down triple canopy jungle (that is no mean feat). Crush the Navi under your bright yellow construction machinery while laughing manically.

If Mother Nature Spirit herself intervenes; what's a bunch of rhinos going to do against a 200 ton haulbot? Ding the paint some?

Hahahaha.

If they hole up in their base, then the Na'vi win. Why? Because they still have to send their mining vehicles OUT of the base, to the Home Tree mining site or to the other mining sites. What can the Na'vi do against a 200 ton haulbot? How about smash its fucking cameras, like what Jake Sully DID do to one of them haulbots? The only reason the Na'vi shot arrows at the haulbots previously, to vandalize them, as oppose to do any actual damage by damaging the cameras was probably because the Na'vi didn't know what a fucking camera was.

So your supply lines and your convoys of haulbots get harassed by Na'vi hit and runs precisely because they have to go OUT of your super-fortified base. Then you have to send your VTOL birds and troopers to respond to any haulbot that gets attacked. Your mercenary staffing is undermanned, you can't exactly put soldiers in each and EVERY haulbot. So you HAVE to have your VTOL birds patrolling with "response teams" or some shit. Also, you WILL need the VTOLs to drop in mechanics to fix any haulbot that gets its cameras ruined.

Actually, he makes a lot of sense.

1.) Fixed wing aircraft would be cheaper to operate and run than tilt-discs; fly further, fly faster, and higher. Yes, they would need a runway, but you already built a bunch of super massive runways for the SSTO craft to takeoff and land from in your main base.

Can fixed wing aircraft be used in dropping personnel into the jungle underbrush, from science teams like Grace et al, to engineers who'd have to fix haulbots that get damaged in the middle of the jungle on the way to home base or mining site XYZ? Can fixed wing aircraft haul forklifting AMPSUITS like the Dragon does? Can fixed wing aircraft haul fucking trailers, like what Michelle Vasquez Rodriguez did with her gunship - and deposit these trailers in the middle of a halelujah mountain or in the middle of the jungle? Turns out VTOL birds might be important in delivering both men and machines in the middle of the fucking forest, quickly and easily. The only issue is giving them self-defense capability, hence the guns and the missiles.

2.) Armored detachment makes sense. It's a myth that tanks can't operate in jungle. Armored operations by both sides in Vietnam disproved that. It wouldn't have to be a whole tank battalion, just a tank company operating knockoff vehicles from the Third Indo-Chinese War; in case you have to go out past the wire at night -- and need something a little less obvious and destructive than a 200 ton haulbot. And all the haulbots might be constantly in need for moving mine tailings anyway.

Tanks would have to plod through thick jungle, or would need roads carved out for them, and it might take time to arrive to any hotspot if Na'vi raiders go guerrilla. How fast do you think tanks would've reached the Tree of Souls, riding across jungle and shit, compared to the airborne cavalry the RDA used? Unless you use Sheridans, the gunships might not be able to carry the tanks into hotspots - unless you use Sheridans, or your tanks are lighter than the RDA trailers that could be air-dropped.

3.) Agent Orange. Uh, why the fuck not? You're in a constant battle to keep the jungle from encroaching on your base; why waste precious fuel and wear on your vehicles constantly scraping away the jungle when you can have some Tilt-Discs fly and spray the area around your base? Sure you wouldn't have massive quantities of the stuff, but you'd have it.

Great, then make the environmentalists and Space Democrats bitch and moan about how you're defoliating thousands of species of indigenous alien plantlife in what seems to be the first ever fucking extraterrestrial planet to harbor non-Earth lifeforms in human scientific history?

The RDA isn't a fucking military, it's answerable to the government and to the goddamn Space Environmental Protection Agency. This is WHY they're stuck with modified forklifts with legs (AMPSUITS) and utility helicopters (gunships) and C-130 equivalents (Dragons) armed with self-defense weaponry.

The thing is -- the stuff that lives on Pandora from giant rhino things, merciless swarms of dog analogues, giant flying dragons that HAET you, etc all sort of would lead to a investment in hardening the base and purchasing this kind of equipment.

This isn't some peaceful great plains style planet where the meanest thing out there is a dog-sized ferret that likes to crawl into burrows and eat giant overgrown burrowing rodents. It's full of really big things that are very large and dangerous.

I believe that in the novelization of Jurassic Park; Muldoon actually asked Hammond for antitank rockets to deal with the dinos -- and that cheapskate corporate gran-pa turned him down. The same logic would apply here on Pandora; except that unlike Jurassic Park; the animals aren't corporate clones grown at great cost, but wild beasts that want to eat you.

What they had with them, choppers that could kill nasty xeno-panthers and rhinos and could deal with the occasional pterodactyl, were sufficient for animal control services. The rhinos did NOT attack Jake Sully when he first met them, and the dogs were only a trouble after he spent like years wandering the jungle by his lonesome (without any weapon save for a knife).

Seriously, until Mother Nature decided to go BANZAI on their asses, the threat of the native flora and fauna was NOT as exaggerated as you and Sarevokerritch make it out to be.

All they have to do is buy some piston or turboprop trainers so that fixed wing pilots can keep their licenses current while on Pandora, and justify it under:

"We would like to carry out some intensive mineral survey work. Currently it costs $x cost an hour to operate a Tilt-Disc to conduct a survey on x square miles of land. We estimate that a fixed wing STOL craft will cost 35% less to operate, and cover 50% more area in the same amount of time and cost."

*somewhere someone rubberstamps that as APPROVED*

So fucking WHAT if they use turboprops or messerschmitts or biplanes or VTOLs? What's the fucking difference? They both use machines that fly, and at least the VTOLs have the added capability of dropping troops into the jungle AND hauling trailers. They used VTOLs in the movie, fucking deal with it, apparently in the future VTOLs are cheaper then Space Cessnas or something. So fucking what? That's like bitching about how they used legged loadlifter mechanimus in Aliens, instead of hiring Nepalese Sherpa who might be cheaper than fucking mecha maniac gundamn wank bots.

who gives a shit lol

And for heavy armored vehicles?

You can go like:

"Due to recent operations in grid square A214, we have come across SuperRhinos (see enclosure 12A for autopsy). The animal absorbed several hundred rifle rounds and no less than two anti armor rockets before finally expiring."

"Scientific tests recently concluded have shown that Superrhinos when sufficiently agitated can deliver x amount of force against an object."

"Therefore, I request permission to build/buy plans to the Israeli Namer APC (their new APC built on a Merkava tank chassis), equipped with a 40mm case telescoped remote weapons station to enable us to operate outside our base during inclement weather or times of darkness."

"If we had had one of these two months ago, then Scientific Team #23 would not have been lost with all hands after their Scorpion went down 60 klicks away from our base after suffering engine failure. Initial radio reports showed that four personnel survived the crash, and were alive; but had been killed by the wildlife by the time conditions had improved enough for us to send a CASEVAC/SAR bird at first light."

The SuperRhinos were relatively benign (they didn't killfuck Sully at that first scene) before MOTHER NATURE BANZAI ATTACK happened. And individual SuperRhinos succumbed to AMPSUIT fire nonetheless. They don't use tanks or shit to deal with individual rogue elephants, turns out some guys with some guns can deal with it just fine.

The hyper-hostile attack behavior only happened when MOTHER NATURE launched a BANZAI ATTACK. Yes, before that the animals could be aggressive - but the RDA measures in place could kill them just as dead anyway.

By your logic, the RDA shouldn't have had:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2eoftw4.jpg
Look at how many weapon systems that thing has![/quote]

That thing also serves as a heavy cargo hauler. It can transport many legged forklift-analogue AMPSUITS, and can also haul men and other machines. The other gunships could also, single-handedly, haul those RDA trailers to and from the hallelujah mountains. A Dragon might even haul MORE heavier loads than the gunships.

those weapons systems are just for self-defense

(Or, maybe Quarritch had a shitload of extra guns bolted on. Looks like they were putting an 'A' in 'C-130', geddit)

Oh, and look at the angular canopies. That's the clear sign of armored transparencies.

http://i43.tinypic.com/jkczy9.jpg
FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH

But they do, because they asked for it and got it; because....wait for it.

PANDORA IS FUCKING DANGEROUS

Quoth Quaritch again:

"Out there, beyond that fence, every living thing that crawls, flies or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for Jujubes."

Anyone could say the same shit about the African savannah, the Amazon jungle, and shit. There are natives who can kill you, and there are a lot of big game that might require heavy guns to kill (elephants, rhinos, shit). If Mother Nature launched an all-out-attack with lions and tigers and stampedes of elephants, you would also be bitching about how Kenyan park rangers aren't equipped with Tiger panzer tanks and XB-70 Valkyries.

AFRICAMAZON IS FUCKING DANGEROUS

Is there some logical reason that a company would be allowed to have a fleet of attack helicopters and a flying god damn battleship armed with cannons and missiles, but prohibited from owning fixed-wing aircraft or ground vehicles armed the same way?

It is because the "attack helicopters" and "flying god damn battleship" can actually serve as dual-purpose utility vehicles. Yes, they have armaments for self-defense, but a gunship can haul not only men but also stuff like trailers, while the Dragon itself can bring multiple AMPSUITS (which are also dual-use and have utility purposes), so you can imagine what kind of cargo a Dragon can haul. That school in the Hallelujah mountains, and those trailers, were certainly deployed via gunships. Who knows what other deployable facilities the various VTOL birds could've deployed? If the RDA wants a field base or an outpost or a portable toilet transported to the ass-end of the jungle, a gunship could do it easily. If the RDA wanted a GIANT SEPTIC TANK deployed in the middle of nowhere, the Dragon would be up to the task.

Thats probably how they can justify having their tiny air force. The armaments for the Dragon and the gunships could just be there for "self defense" purposes against wildlife. A contrived excuse, but the Shepridges and Sarevokerritches would want as many armaments as they can.

Hey SHEPRIDGE and SAREVOKKERITCH! If RDA CEO Shroomnamara won't allow you to have artillery and MiG-25s, would you guys settle for putting missiles on your utility helicopters and guns on your walking forklift AMPSUITS? RDA CEO Shroomnamara doesn't want RDA PR to look bad under public hippie scrutiny under Space Obama and the Space Democrats, so you'll have to settle for these measures because we totally don't have the authorization to deploy a fucking army on Pandora because of the goddamn fucking liberals. But at least we can give your helicopters some missiles for "self defense" , would that be alright? KK THNX BAI!

Edit: Though if Pandora has an insect population comparable to that of Earth and they're included in the Eywa deus ex machina, that's pretty much auto-win for Team Hippie if the humans do anything less than sterilize the planet.

I wonder how good Blackwater would fare if, suddenly, they are attacked by rogue African wildlife that's being controlled by a militaristic MOTHER NATURE. I am sure people would be bitching about how Blackwater doesn't have MiG-31s and how their SUVs have stupid glass windows and useless helicopters and shit.

[DudeGuyMan]

I wonder how good Blackwater would fare if, suddenly, they are attacked by rogue African wildlife that's being controlled by a militaristic MOTHER NATURE. I am sure people would be bitching about how Blackwater doesn't have MiG-31s and how their SUVs have stupid glass windows and useless helicopters and shit.

Gosh, I don't know, maybe they would slaughter the animals with their armored vehicles. Hurf durf. There was some noise about them acquiring fixed-wing attack aircraft a couple years ago too, but that turned out to be mostly wank.

Of course the Avatar baddies are already allowed to have heavily armed choppers, and the only reason anyone can think of for them to not have fixed-wing shit is because maybe they're retarded and insist that every piece of hardware double as a cargo transport. Which doesn't really run counter to the notion that they were written to be retarded.

What the hell is that flying battleship even for, besides being a very inefficient way to shoot down dragons and a giant target in real combat? What were the designers thinking?

[MKSheppard]

Shroomy, I'll reply to the rest later, but this was too amusing:

I wonder how good Blackwater would fare if, suddenly, they are attacked by rogue African wildlife that's being controlled by a militaristic MOTHER NATURE. I am sure people would be bitching about how Blackwater doesn't have MiG-31s and how their SUVs have stupid glass windows and useless helicopters and shit.

Actually, Blackwater would work out pretty well, with machine guns, AKs, M-16s etc that their operatives drive around in SUVs with for "personnel protection ops".

I mean, we have serious problems with elephant poaching in the real world from poachers who simply use all the small arms and machine guns floating around africa to do a number on the wildlife.

[NecronLord]

Of course the Avatar baddies are already allowed to have heavily armed choppers, and the only reason anyone can think of for them to not have fixed-wing shit is because maybe they're retarded and insist that every piece of hardware double as a cargo transport. Which doesn't really run counter to the notion that they were written to be retarded.

Or you know... cost. Why spend fuel on fixed wing aircraft that are going to be giant overkill on anything they encounter? Let alone building runways.

What the hell is that flying battleship even for, besides being a very inefficient way to shoot down dragons and a giant target in real combat? What were the designers thinking?

Fuck knows. It's vaguely canon that the chief bad guy just made them build it because he really wanted one to fly around in. Wouldn't be the first time Military acquisition has been driven by commanders' egoes. If he makes it a condition of his contract that he gets a giant dropship he can use to deploy those mecha things, he gets it.

[PeZook]

Of course the Avatar baddies are already allowed to have heavily armed choppers, and the only reason anyone can think of for them to not have fixed-wing shit is because maybe they're retarded and insist that every piece of hardware double as a cargo transport. Which doesn't really run counter to the notion that they were written to be retarded.

Actually, as I stated, oh, I don't know - five or six times before - it's probably because they see it as a pointless waste of personnell and fabricator time, and they'd require a runway, and thus a longer, harder to defend perimeter.

What capabilities do fixed-wing aircraft give to your mining operation? You can't bomb enemy forces on the move, because of the jungle ; You can only attack fixed targets like Na'Vi villages.

So you would have to build up your force, ferry specialized pilots for them and have them literally do nothing until a full-scale war erupts and you have a need to drop napalm on hometrees and soultrees and whatnot.

Essentially, it's the point that Bakustra keeps making and that keeps getting ignored: that while the RDA could've geared up in a way that would've allowed them to easily win the war, it would have to do it years in advance, which means they were planning to murder hundreds of Na'Vi all along for no reason whatsoever.

What the hell is that flying battleship even for, besides being a very inefficient way to shoot down dragons and a giant target in real combat? What were the designers thinking?

Did you miss the large cargo bay full of AMP suits? It just happened that it's large and has powerful engines due to its cargo role, so you can also bolt lots of weaponry on it in case you need it some time in the future. In the meantime, it can fo things like carrying equipment too heavy for the Samsons, moving AMP suits around, flying SAR - that sort of thing.