Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2009-06-02 04:49am

Are there any hints, one way or the other, whether the Old Ones had even the vaguest of plans or intentions for the rise of the Emperor?

He only arose long after the influence of the Old Ones cased to be. In my opinion, it'd be equally interesting if the God-Emperor of Mankind was an unforeseeable runaway development, or if it was the culmination of events the Old Ones set into motion long ago.
I mean, he's only the most powerful psyker to ever have existed!

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-06-02 02:34pm

I doubt he was. Earlier stuff I believe I quoted (from the Eldar POV) noted that alot of the Old One's evolutionary projects, including humans, had gotten out of hand, and this was millenia before the Emperor was even conceived.

To my knowledge, nothing in modern times has really said how or why the Emperor came into being. The only material we have is very early 1st and 2nd edition stuff, where he was the reincarnation of some thousands of shamans/wizards/etc - basically psykers, who had forseen a decline in their own reincarnations and wanted to be on hand to help shepherd humanity after they were gone.

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2009-06-02 02:51pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:More Necron stuff coming up...

Page 11
After pursuing the invaders ot the Noctis Labyrinthus, a mine complex in the northern reaches of Mars, defence ships were finally able to catch the Necron vessels. Though all five were destroyed, it was only at a fearfully high cost, and one of the hsips actually managed to land on the blessed red soil of Mars itself before being vapourised.

..

.. various vocal members of the Adeptus Mechanicus have voised wildly differing opinions regarding the future of the mine complex, ranging from its total destruction to the enforcement of a Perditia zone. Fresh from his expedition to the dead world of Naogeddon, Magos Prime Reston Egal has proved the most strident in his criesf or the site's destrucition with fusion bombs and its sealing with ferrocrete...
Notcis LAbyrinthus is the place I believe the Void Dragon is being kept buried on Mars - or at least what is implied as the location. This probably explains greatly why the AdMech are such total dicks.

I believe Reston Egal has been infiltrated and compromised by the Necrons, if not actually a C'tan in disguise.

It also says something about the Necrons that they could penetrate and withstand the firepower of Mars's defense network (Terra being the best defended locale in the Imperium), even if they were destroyed.

As I recall, the ships at Mars were the Necron stealth specialised ships (Shroud class?), and pretty much just sailed through the gird without being spotted until the last moment. After that, they went down relatively quickly. More a show of stealth than toughness.
Spoiler

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-06-09 02:49am

Page 22

Three hundred and seven days I journeyed upon the currents of the Empyrean, although to my sisters on Terra almost six years had elapsed as I travelled the length of two thirds of the Emperor's domain.

70K to 90K diameter for the imperium, depending on source, 2/3 of that would be between 50-60K LY. 307 days is 85% of a year, so basically the FTL travel was maybe 9000-10000c from the perspective of the "universe", and from the standpoint of the ship, 60,000-70,000c. I vaguely recall it was not a particularily smooth ride, though.

Page 25

The entities were dispersed across areas larger than planets, their consciousness too vast to comprehend...

...

The Necrontyr forged bodies for them ot occupy, cast from the living metal of their ships.

..

Incomprehensible forces were compressd into the living metal of the false bodies which the Necrontyr had forged as the full power of the C'tan found form.

The formation of the C'tan and their creation as corporeal entities. In their "natural" form they seem to be massive but largely insubstantial. I'm not too sure whether or not they ctually DO get "compressed" (if they do they can't mass much unless they do some DS9 changling technobabble) Nevermind the mass implied by being able to lug around stellar scale energy outputs.

My thought is that their physical forms are merely avatars.. or puppets for their insubstantial forms. Its a way for them to interact with and connect with and comprehend our galaxy. These physical forms may only have a fraction of that power (why some can be withstood even temporarily perhaps or not wiped out by Uber-powers) but they also probably allow a fraction of the mind of the Necron to think in "realspace" terms.

Note that there is no reason to believe the C'tan have just ONE avatar or body form. Alot of the neat ships or vehicles or whatever the C'tan have probably serve that similar purpose. (eg, Deathbringer's ship o doom.)

Page 25

The close waves of dancing particles enthralled them and the deliciously focused trickles of electromagnetism leaked by the mortal bodies of the Necrontyr about them awoke a hunger in the C'tan quite unlike the one they had sated among the raging rorents of the stars.

Truthfully, they can't be sucking much power out of living things, and its unlikely they are tapping the warp through living beings either. They must simply think organics "taste" better (or maybe they thrive on the pain suffering terror, etc they can engender while doing it.)

Page 25

Armed with weapons of god-like power and ships that could cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye.

Taken literally, this impiles insane FTL speeds. Necronlord calced this I believe - billions or trillions of times C as I recall. But this assumes its literal - which I am not totally sure of. But its still a potential calc, so it can be quoted here.

Page 25

The C'tan feasted upon their entire race, leaving behind only ghostly echoes of the Necrontyr. Only a few of the very strongest retained their intellect and even they were shadows of their former selves.

Which is why the Necrons come across as soulless robotic beings. SPPAAAACCEEEE zombies.

Page 25

the C'tan began to battle amongst themselves for sport and spite as they unleashed destructive forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes.

I'm not sure whether or not this suggests they personally unleashed these forces, or through some other vehicle/mechanism (IE ships, or whtaever). Even taking it in the latter sense, its pretty powerful.

Page 25

They [Old Ones] manipulated life into new forms with an ever stronger link to the warp, desiring minions with the capability of channelling psychic power to defend themselves.

The Old Ones fidled with the psychic abilities of the lesser races. Presumably this includes the humans as well as Orks and Eldar and such since humanity is noted as being a race raised by the Old Ones.

Page 26

"A sacrifice of men, but their precious souls are not consumed, they are cast adrift. Many are the daemons that wait like carrion to feast onthe leavings from thsi rich table."

Were it not for the fact the Necrons sought to close off the 40k galaxy from the warp, daemons would probably love them for this reason. Necrons can't use the souls, and the Daemons dont really need the organic bits.

Page 26

"Mars is in the shade of Terra and the mountains of mist are Noctis Labyrinthus, the augurs were true."

..

The Traitor Marine saw a great chamber of bastalt, around it towering machines of antique silver stretched endlesly upward. Set in the floor was a vat sarcophagus of adamnatium and gold. From each of the machines in turn a flickering beam of unimaginable energy flowed in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus.

Hints of the Void Dragon being on Mars, again.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-06-17 06:34pm

Page 27

The C'tan wield the primal energies of creation. Their power is such that they can defy natural laws and alter the fabric of reality itself. Even if a C'tan is destroyed in a battle, its essence will reform in a Necron Tomb and return to wreak its vengeance later.

In a manner of speaking, one can think of the C'tan as being the "realspace" equivlaent of Chaos Gods/Daemons. DAemons can do much the same thing as this in the warp, after all. This sort of relationship/concept may explain why the Necrons are so vulnerable to the Warp - Daemons can't exist in realspace without some connection or link to the Warp (or somethign warp-linked to snack on, ie souls) and the Necrons need energy of some kind from this world to sustain themselves (which they oculdn't find in the warp, and can't really swallow. They'd suffocate/drown/die of thirst/hunger).

Note the affirmation that you CAN destroy a C'tan body, but it will just re-incorporate later, at least as long as the Tomb (world) survives. So you probably have to wipe out the C'tan AND the World both to ensure they can no longer come back.

Page 27

A C'tan's close combat attacks drain the life energy from its opponents.

So yeah. Melee combat with the C'tan is always a bad idea.

Page 27

The C'tan are able to warp reality around them to varying degrees. They can walk on air, pass through solid objects and generally show off.

Obviously a gameplay ins pired limitation, but there has to be some obvious limit (Since C'tan typically do not behave like DBZ characters, can't mind control entire planets effortlessly, rewrite the laws of physics so that people obey them, etc.) Likely the strength of the feat is tied to how much pwoer the C'tan has or is willing to expend.

Page 27

In their natural state, C'tan are immense energy beings. When they walk among mortals, though, they are clad in a necrodermis which binds their essence.

..

If it loses all its wounds, the necrodermis is breached and the essence of the C'tan is released.

[/quote]

More about the "energy being/necrodermis" relationship. In theory the energy/spirit being is confined inside a physical body/vessel, giving it a connection to the real world. How much of that essence is contained in the body is still up for debate, IMHO.

Page 28

The Nightbringer is death incarnate, a sadistic god with the power to unmake the stars.

An impressive power, and one we've seen depicted in novels (EG Nightbringer, obviously).

Page 28

With a starship imbued with a measure of its power, the Nightbringer has destroyed entire star systems on a whim

"imbued with its power" would suggest the vessel does act as a physical host for the C'tan's body. It also hints that the size of the vessel may influence its power and capabilities. Smaller hosts may not be as powerful (but still pretty damn strong.) It would be trivial for the Necrons ot have different forms to suit different purposes.

This leads to some interesting and possibly frighting speculation about C'tan lik ethe Void Dragon or perhaps the Outsider and peotential vessels they might occupy (IE relaly Dragon sized, for example. No idea for Oiutsider.)

Page 31

The Messenger has living followers once more among the ranks of the Adeptus mechanicus, and with them has gahtered many pariahs to become its new slaves.

Not only does the Void Dragon have a grip on the AdMech, but so does the Deceiver. This may lead to an interesting three way civil war at some point in the future, but its unlikely the Imperium could survive it if it did.

Page 31

The war that was provoked to achieve this ravaged an entire sector of hundreds of worlds and eliminated entire star systems in a fashion unseen since the War in Heaven.
...

It would have destroyed the Gothic sector a thoussand times over to achieve its goals.

The Gothic sector is described as "hundreds of worlds." referring ot events occuring in BFg's Gothic War with the Blackstone fortresses, which also means the Deceiver instigated that little fiasco. Anyhow, the scale here does indicate the Empire encompasses at least thousands of Sectors (as I've estimated before.)

Its interesting to think of the scale of devastation the Deceiver was willing to engender to eliminate those weapons, as it does hint at removing a significant portion of the Imperium (probably) to do so, and thus gives us an indication of their importance/deadliness to C'tan (or at least some. It doesnt mean all C'tan would be vulnerable, and the Deceiver Is a rather low end one.)

Page 50

"It was their sicence our ancestors plundered; we who understand shall venerate them upon their return."

Again human tech is linked to Necron technology, given much of what we know now, this probably is not a GREAT surprise. Although that doesnt mean anything in a purely quantitaitve sense.

Serafina · Post by **Serafina** » 2009-06-17 06:46pm

One thing, Necrons are not vulnerable to the warp. They do not understand it, can not really use it (their obly warp technology is about blocking it), but thats it.
C'tan, on the other hand, are stated to be vulnerable to the warp - and your explanation makes perfect sense if you replace "Necron" with "C'tan".

Also, IIRC, at least one C'tan (wasn't it the Nightbringer?) was shot by the Blackstone Fortresses, and had to recover for a very, very long time (on a Necron timescale!).
It's indicated that massive, warp-based attacks are the only thing that can really hurt C'tan-bodies (not their hulls, which are easier to destroy) aside from other Necrons, but even the power of all seven Blackstone Fortresses was not enough to kill the Nightbringer (but the shot may have not hit him directly). Another similarity to Demons - while mortals can banish them, they can not kill them.
It would be interesting to see how Demons and C'tan interact - a C'tan should be able to kill a Demon, and a sufficiently powerfull Demon should be able to kill a C'tan.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-07-06 01:19pm

As a rule I tend to use Necrons/C'tan interchangably., although the Warp is a "threat" in the sense its an integral part of maintaining the scope of the Imperium and other Empires more or less (without which things would collapse anyhow.)

anyways, onwards with th analysis.

Page 52

...a massive detonation rocked the Black Templar Land Raider, tilting its eighty-ton bulk up on one track. The mighty vehicle slammed back down, shattering the stone road of the triumphal way.

A bit of a variance on Land Raider mass, compared to the IA books, not drastic or unreasonable. (Mass wcan change with role and configuration). Heavy gauss weapon had enough momentum/force to knock the Land Raider around, though.. and Land Raider itself was not noticably damaged by the impact.

Page 52

The Black Templars spread out, firing on the soulless mechanical warriors before them. Several were blasted from their feet, only to rise once more as their hateful bodies reformed.

Bolter fire powerful to knock Necrons off their feet, even though this levle of firepower still fails to keep them down.

PAge 52

The mighty war vehicle exploded in a vast orange fireball, its engines and ammunition detonating and flipping it over onto tis side.

The Gauss weapon seems to have ignited the fuel/ammo supply.

Page 52

The Apothetcary collapsed, first his armour, then his flesh disintegrating from his skeleton in a matter of seconds.

Gauss weapon on an Apothetcary. Note apparent inconsistency with earlier examples in terms of effects - chalk it up to variable settings or different weapons configurations.

Page 54

Fractal edged blade [power weapon equivaelnt]

Description of the bayonet/blade weapons on Gauss flayers and other such devices. Oddly I've seen Space Marine weapons depicted this way too (Blood Angels novels IIRC,for whatever that's worth.)

Page 54

At their most basic level, Gauss guns can be described as asynchronous linear induction motors. When fired, they appear to produce a focused bipolar magnetic field and anything the weapon is targeted at, such as a human body, will be "pulled" (at the stubatomic level) towards the gun. The weapon appears to pulse with intense currents, whcih form the magnetic fields that strip the target's constituent atoms towards the weapon. It is postulated that the weapon aspect is just one of the many possible uses for such technology and that many more might be possible.

REally this screams "technobabble" to me - where the hell are the Necron gauss guns going ot store whatever matter it "draws" towrds it? where does it go? do they spray it out the back like some sci fi leaf blower?

Page 54

The Design of a Gauss weapon with all its parameters kept dynamic to achieve maximum efficiency is a mathematical impssibility, as proved by Magos Barrous during the Calculometry Schism. The greatest problem encountered in Gauss weapon design is devising a means to safely generate and release the power of the discharge, which runs in the multi-megawatt range. Because the power required is extremely high, even microscopic imperfections in design will generate massive energy losses.

If a mechanical trigger is used to deliver the pulse, the moment the firing mechansims come into contact, microscopic irregularities in the material will dissipate so much energy as to be completely vapourised. When the trigger closes, these vapourised surfaces and the molten metal beneath them weld together, and the trigger is thus ruined. How the weapons employed by the Necrons overcome this problem is unknown.

Assuming firing difficulties can be overcome, the final effect will be to produce a beam capable of stripping a target down to its constitutent atoms extremely rapidly. Since high-energy power supplies are extremely dangerous and difficult to maintain, it follows that one would want to maximise effiicency in order to obtain the best possible results with the least possible energy.

This also preserves the components of the weapon since most energy losses are typically dissipated as damaging heat or destructive back currents, such as encountered by plasma weapons.

Taken at face value this implies that Imperial weapons are below "multi-megawatt" outputs, but one must note we're not told how many megawatts that Necron weapons actually consume - its just more than human weapons do. Strict/literal interpretation of this quote is also hampered by the fact we have a huge pile of evidence of weapons that are most distinctly ABOVE multi-megawatt - lascannon, meltaguns, and plasma guns.

Page 55

Extensive study of Gauss weapons and their effects on both organic and inanimate matter has, thus far, been hampered by the lack of a working device to examine.

Investigations into the remains of soldiers and their equipment reveals a fascinating levle of interaction between the Gauss field and the target's atomic structure. It appears that the field generated by gauss weaponry is capable of breaking the bonds of the target material at the subatomic level and energising them with an opposing magnetic charge to that generated by the weapon itself. This accounts for the "flaying" effect noted in many after-action reports from commanders in the field. As each layer is exposed (be it flesh, muscualture, or armaplas), it is broken down by the weapon's beam and carried towards the gun. Obviously, this results in catastrophic failure of the components involved and their dissipation int vapourous form.

This is a peculiar statement as Gauss weapons are described IIRC as part of a Inquisitorial armour in the Inquisitor RPG. Evidently the Inquisition ain't sharing.

More technobabble technobabble about the Gauss weapons. note the depiction of "remains and equipment" from weapon attacks, implying (once again) they dont always totall distintegrate a body. Also the technobabble disintegration seems to be a field effect. echoing the MD "Doctor" devices from the Enderverse.

PAge 55

Subject 19 remained operative for three hours following injuries inflicted by a gauss weapon, though the limbs concerned with primary locomotion were stripped to the bone and 90% of the dermal layer was absent. These effects were observed after exposure to a weapon carried by a basic Necron trooper.

Another "survivor" of a Gauss attack, from a basic necron weapon no less. The same ones who, in other sources, can flay orks to atoms in seconds.

Page 55

In the image, we see a blast from a Necron Skimmer penetrating not one, but two armoured faces of a Land Raider vehicle. I need not remind my learned readers that the probability of a weapon impact defeating the armour of such a vehicle is remote, but to pass completely through a Land Raider with no visible deflection to its trajectory woudl require an energy source so powerful that it is unlikely we could replicate it on any weapon system save that employed by a Titan or starship. That such weaponry may be mounted on what is essentially a light skimmer filsl me with dread and wonder in equal measure.

Necron beams display highly focused/penetrative disintegration effects against inorganic matter. Go figure. This may have something to do with the nature of the weapon - perhaps its field effect is optimized for a "tubuluar" effect.. a more piercing/penetrating attack rather than an "area effect" type attack.

I am also not taking the "Gauss weapon equal to titan or starship grade weapon" bit seriously, since we know it technobabbles its way trhough armour. I am mildly curious that it is implied that only titan grade (or higher) weapons can completely Core a Land raider - it says something about their durability. (Then again Land Raiders are a kind of Superheavy themselves, and can take on small Titans)

Page 56

Brothers Emeric and Weiss, their ML40 pattern bolters each loaded with a psychically impregnated Odysseus bolt, opened fire upon the Necron designated by Brother Quetus' marker beam.As this ammunition has the mass-reactive core removed to ensure it remains whole, it took several direct hits from Brother Saul's heavy bolter to finally fell the Necron.

Special bolters and special ammo... some sort of beacon we learn. It took several hits from a heavy bolte to down said Necron.

Also note the use of a marker beam to guide the attack.

Page 56

Astropath Miesha's divinations betrayed the location of our quarry with perfect clarity, she had ascertained the destination of the Odysseus bolts seconds after my team arrived on board. We made all speed to Berien, a dead world on the outskirts of the system and the location of the Necron's reappearance.

Astropath within "seconds" locates the Oddysseus bolts stuck into the downed Necron. At least light hours (more likely light years) away.

Page 56

and the auspex was betraying the Necron's location as within the desiccated heart of the dead city.

[/quote]

Necrons could be detected on auspex.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-07-19 03:15pm

Last of the Codex Necrons. Next up I go for URBAN WARFARE!!!

Page 56

Shards of broken metal flowed and coalesced around the inactive warriors like swarms of glittering insects until the Necrons were whole once more. Clsoer magnificaiton revealed the giant reconstruction drones surrounded by shimmerng clouds of dust; Brother Quetus theorised that these were microscopic repair organisms.

An idea of what is helpign to rebuild the Necron constructs (or at least some of them.) The Necrons seem to have mastered Grey goo style nanotech (hardly surprising.)

Page 57

A total of five different classes of Necron ship have been identified. These can be split into broad types that match our own classifications, specifically Captial Ships (including battleships and cruisers) and escrots.

...

Imperial Escorts, for example, specialise in scouting, harassing the enemy fleet and providing close support for Capital ships. The Necrons do not follow this doctrine. Their Escorts are far more aggressive and missions are often entrusted to fleets comprised exlucsilvey of Escort class vessel

...

Imperial Capital ships will normally engage the enemy in a formation that allows them to provide mutual support. Necron Capital ships do not utilise any recongisable standard formations; indeed, on occasions their behaviour is more akin to attack craft, with each ship fighting independently of the rest of the fleet. In this regard their tactics bear a close resemblance to those of the Eldar, emphsizing speed nad the sudden application of overwhelming firepower.

A bit on Necron warships classification and behaviour.

Page 57

No Necron ship has ever been witnessed translating to or from Warp Space. On repeated occasions, though, Necron vessels have appeared well within maximum sensory range without any approach being detected. During the attack on Horloth it was reported that on first sighting the Necron fleet was noticeably decelerating, which raises the possibility that whatever their means of propulsion it is so fast that when moving at full speed their vessels are undetectable. The fact that they slow down to fight would indicate that even they find it impossible to perform fine manoeuvres or accurately target enemies while travelling at full speed.

Some implied limitations about Necron stealth and targeting capabilities. Its probably not shocking they are detectable when accelerating or slowing down, since that would involve doing work (and expending energy), while travelling at a given speed would not neccesarily do so.

Page 57

Where our own ships rely on void shields for defence, Necron ships use a combination of stealth and adaptability. Their hulls cloak all internal energy emissions and prevent accurate tracking; it is only when they change course or speed, or when they fire weapons that they can be scanned reliably. Until then, Necron ships apepar as sensorary phantoms. PRactically, though, this will often have to suffice for targeting purposes. It should be noted that, whilst Necron ships are both fast and agile, they are not capable of the sudden changes in direction available to Eldar craft, so leading fire is preferrable.

Necron defenses. Basically they emit no detectable signatures save from engines or weapons (which makes sense.) They do not seem to use active sensing then as a mans of detection (as this would be mentioned)l. They are not truly "invisible" just very hard to detect.

It is also implied that Necron ships are somewhat less agile compared ot Eldar vessels.

Page 57

Wht would be crippling blows to an Imperial Cruiser often fails to superficially damage a Necron ship. We have no certain evidence why, as the classes we have identified are not massive enough to support armour fo the requisite thickness.

...

..

We do know that they have impressive automated repair capabilities, whcih can seemingly repair virtually any damage in minutes. This technology is not invincible, however, and when activated the stealth features of Necron ship huulls is instantly compromised, levavng them far more vulnerable to attack.

Necron durability. Presumably this refers to cruiser or escort scale craft , but it does suggest their durabilities are well in excess of the teraton/petaton rang.

Alos, their self repair capabilites nullify their stealth, suggesting some sorts of emissions are involved.

Page 57

Necron weapon systems all utilised energy projection.

...

It hs been postulated that the energy is extra-dimesnional in origin. Regardless of its source, it is projected very accurately using a ranging particle beam at longer distancese. In some cases the discharges have been seen to pass through a ship's shields leaving them undamaged.

Necron weaponry. Of interest is the "extra-dimesnional" energy source and appears to be a sort of particle beam weapon with shield-breaching properites (why it is isn't stated.) It is curious that these weapons do not seem to be like Necorn Gauss weaponry.. but go figure.

Page 57

most common of these is the use of swarms of small "scarab" robots to infest the hulls of target vessels before emitting a singal that disrupts mechanical communication an dcontrol functions within the sectors infected.

Another common Necron weapon involves the sudden discharge of stored solar energy form all parts of the hull, which inflicts damage on all ships in proximity. The blast is powerful enough to overload the shields of any Escort in the Imperial Fleet, an the effect of several overlapping bursts can be dangerous to Capital ships as well.

...

Once shields are down, raiding parties will commonly attack several decks simultaneously.

Other Necron combat tactics. The Scarabs are their equivalent of torpedoes, obviously, but have disabling funciton less than destructive. The ability to discharge "stored solar energy" seems a bit ofdd, since sunlight isnt all that strong in space (See TIE fighter problem). Unless they go close to a sun. The fact they cna harm multiple escorts suggests an output well into the TT range, minimum.

Oh, and boarding parties.

Page 57

Necron ships have demonstrated an ability to disengage effortelsly from combat by seemingly phasing out, and this has made it impossible to turn pyrrhic victories into substantial ones.

I believe this is the Necron drive system at work.. it makes them more Shadow-like (minus the organic wanking)

Page 58

"The one who lives Beyond. The Lord of Insainty, he who dewlls on the world within the world. It Craves.. it feeds!"
..

"The Machine God Exists, but it is a false god! Come to enslave us all!"

More of the C'tan-AdMech connection

Page 58

In the North-eastern reaches of the Segmentum Solar, some nine hundred light years below the galactic plane.

Location of a tomb world, if I remember correctly.

Page 59

Yes, several, though our Genetors cannot explainthe premature aging and wasting of their flesh. It is as though they were, for want of a better expression, drained of their life."

It seems as if the life drain of the C'tan drains some physicla element from their bodies rather than something intangible (like their soul) - electrochemical processes or something like that.

Page 59

I saw my companions from Cthelmax fed to the machines, their bodies and souls reduced to their component atoms to feed the insatiable hunger of the Machine God.

..

The Machine God does not love us, nor does it want our worship. "[

More n the C'tan-AdMech connection. It seems that the Dragon on MArs is being fed actively. Wheher or not this was intentional on the Emperor's part remains to be seen, but it cna't be a good idea.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-04 03:45pm

Back to 3rd edition... Battlezone: Cityfight (2001).. the predecessor to "Cities of Death" (which I'll probably cover next, just to be consistent.)

Page 3

Marnok could recall verey little of the last few days, just nightmare memories of bloody hand-to-hand combat and mad scrambles from ruined buildings along rubble-choked streets. He'd lost count of the number of times they'd stormed fortified enemy positions thruogh minefields, razor wire, and lethal volleys of gunfire and grenades. An assault that had started nearly five thousand strong had been reduced to less than eight hundred men.

The tactics of the Cadians in this particular battle. I'm not sure if its one of those "necessity" things or if its just stupidity on the parts of the Commanders (like naother Dravere). But either is possible/likely.

This Cadian regiment is the 122nd, and its implied that the whole regiment was in the assualt, indicating a size of 5,000 combat troops total.

Page 3

Only Jenks looked different and that was only because he was bloody from the belly down.
He'd taken a sniper's bolter round in the gut when they holed up in here and died screaming as his blood flooded into a huge pool on the floor. They'd propped him by the window and used his corpse to try ot flush out the sniper by watching for muzzle flashes but, wherever he was, he'd not been fooled.

Bolter configured/equipped as a sniper weapon. Not too common. (would need a stock as well as a scope.) They're Cadians, so the bolter round wasn't stopped by the body armor (At least the soft stuff). Also note the muzzle flash, implying some sort of propellant used to fire the round in addition to the rocket.

Oddly too, the man seems mostly intact as he still had organs to scream and died of blood loss, so he wasn't hit by an explosive round. Possibly one of the non-explosive solid/armor piering types, then.

Page 3

"I'd put that helmet back on, sir," advised Marnok, "Lot of sniper activity round here."

Cadian Helmet implied to stop sniper fire. Presumably this includes bolter rounds, but could safely be ifnerred to mean normal slugs too (possibly including full power rounds, as those would be the kind typically used in an actual sniper rifle. But "sniper" may just also mean "any guy with a gun" too.. so its just a possibility.)

Page 3

... Marnok could see they were less than a hundred metres from their objective.

...
Suddenly a trio of missiles speared from the building, trailing bright contrails and impacting on the tank's turret with an almighty clang. The missiles corkscrewed wildly away from the tank, exploding high above it and Marnok smiled grimly as he realised the traitors had made a fatal error. They'd obviously been waiting for the tanks to close to ensure their weapons hit, but now the range was too short and the missile's war-spirits didn't have time to arm themselves.

Missile launchers have a range of at least 100 metres, implied to be quite a bit longer than that as well (100m being "short range", and in fact under the "minimum" arming range. If we compare it to a modern anti tank missile launcher like the Javelin it implies max range could be several kilometers.). Also note the mention of "War spirits" - so these are computer guided munitions (which tends to suggest they're a bit more than the RPG-like "Tread Fethers" in the Ghosts novels)

Also worth noting, the missiles ricochet off the tank armour harmlessly (no detonation) - comparing to modern tank missiles (~10 kg missile/warhead and 200 m/s velocity we're talking a momentum of a few thousand kg*m/s per missile easily against the turret without harm. Mind you the KE wouldn't be all that much (unlike any actual gun round)

Page 3

The tanks ground to a halt, their turrets tracking round to where the missiles had come from, and fired their mighty battle cannons in unison. The noise was deafening and the ground shook with the vibration of their firing. The massive shells blasted the building's facade off, smoke boiling form the interior and jagged chunks of masonry cascading from its frontage. Marnok was gratified to see a host of mangled bodies amongst the rubble.

..

He snapped a couple of frags from his belt and hurled them trhough the giant hole the tanks had blasted.

Assuming its a 2 story building, we might be assessing roughly 2 2-3 meter diametre "holes" together might be equal to ~8-27 kg of TNT apiece - not a precise figure, but within a factor of two or so. It's not unreasonable, since a 120mm HE shell could mass around ~20 kg, and maybe half of that high explosive, it could be 10-20 kg of TNT, depending on the quality of explosive (and 40K has evidence for advanced chemical explosive tech)

Page 4

"I remember the first day we entered Vogen. The city had already been blasted by our artillery and IN 'Bolts [Imperial Navy Thunderbolts] and not one building was left fully standing.

Fighters and artillery had basically levelled the city. We might estimate 1 ton of TNT has a 350 meter radius "blast radius" for raw destruction. Assuming a 40 km diametre "city" area - we might assume hundreds or thousands of such explosions.. kiloton to megaton range approximately (About what you might get from a stragetic "city killer" nuke within an order of magntidue)

Of course we dont know how much artillery and how many fighters, other than a general "hundreds or thousnads of tons of ordnance.

Page 4

The streets and buildings that make up the millions of settlements scattered across the Imperium make perfect defensive terrain for an army, and are usually located at strategically vital locations. Because of this it is a rare campaign which does not involve any city fighting. These battles can range in size from a short skirmish in a primitive backwater village through to a decade-long campaign fought in an Imperial hive or city.

"Mililons of settlements" could be taken to men millions of worlds, or millions of buildings on tjhe worlds of the Imperium. Given the context, I'm inclined to think the latter. This is also indicative that the Imperium belives in building not only just sturdily, but defensively in mind (an extreme version of this philosophy being Mordian or Cadian homeworlds)

Page 4

Tanks and armoured vehicles are less useful for a start, both because the ranges tend to be shorter, but also because a cunning opponent will stick infantry with heavy weapons up on tall buildings where they can shoot the thin and horribly vulnerable top armour of your tanks....
..

You'll also find that short range weapons like flamers and meltaguns are much more useful in Cityfight than they are in the open field.

"in city" combat ranges seem to be considered "short rnage", while out of scity would allow longer ranges for some weapons (like lasguns and autoguns.) tens or hundreds of meters in-town easily, dependingo n where you fight (along streets vs inside buildings)

Page 6

The concussion mine tore out a length of corridor and obliterated the last trooper where he stood, tearing the one directly in front of him into pieces with fragments of shrapnel and shards of bone from his exploded comrade.

Essentially a frag mine. Apparently has the power of several grenades - blasting apart several troops at once (with no armor providing protection, either.)

Page 6

Gol smashed out his fake wall and came down on the first of them form the rear, swinging the hook-bill of his axe-rake down through helmet and skull.

Guard/PDF helmet cannot take the momentum of a "axe rake" from a strong person.. a very high momentum attack. Assuming a couple kilos (an axe or scythelike blade) swung at about 5 m/s you would get a momentum of 10-15 kg*m/s, and a KE of between 25 and 37.5 joules.

Page 6

The remaining Zoican switched to full auto and swung wild. His withering close-range shots punched through a flak-board wall partition and blew the guts and thighs out of Machinesmith vidor, who had been waiting to spring out from behind it.

Rather messy, calced before using cauterization or boiling The volume affected (torso say 25x25cmx 15cm, thighs 15 cm diamter and 25 cm length.. thighs would be maybe 2-4 kg depending on density nad other variables each, 7-8 kg for the "guts" Assuming ~300 C for cauterization (~900 kj/kg) thats between 10 and 15 MJ. Searing might be roughly that, but could be half. Boiling would be one fourth that value. Total number for full auto on an unknown number of shots (we dont knwo ROF which can be from 3-4/sec up to 10-20 a sec. Its unlikely that the duration was more than a second or two here though.)

Assuming just a messy explosive effect, compared to the atomic rockets 1 kj laser (see below) you might get 100 kj or so for total effect.

Generally lasguns could go from double digit KW to triple digit KW to low single/double digit MW sustained output.

Page 6

Eardrums ruptured by a close shell on the seventh day, she would never hear againw ithout expensive up-hive surgery and implants.

Ear augmetics are considered "high end" medical procedures at least on vervunhive.

page 8

It is assumed that the model is armed with weapons that are perfectly capable fo blasting a large enough hole for it to enter the building by, and in anyn case, after the opnening shots of a battle numerous additional holes will have been blasted in the walls of buildings by the weapons that are being fired in the battle.

combat weapons of unspeicifed type can put man-sized holes in a building. While the weapons aren't specified, we can generally assume it means lasweapons./autoweapons and grenades at least, since those (for Imperial troops at least) are common weapons. The fact it mentions that "weapons fired in the battle" also make holes we can consider this a valid conclusion. Either way, the firepower implied is intense, if still somewhat vague (We don't and can't know how many shots it takes to get trhough a building, the type of building, how many people fire, etc.) Hell it may just mean they use krak grenades or meltabombs to blast in Later evidence isn't specifically conclusive either way.

Page 10

It may seem strange that you can 'see' models that are hidden behind brick walls or rubble. However you should remember that it's possible to hear or sense models that you can't see, and that many troops will have motion detectors or other forms of scanner that will detect nearby enemy troops. As even a laspistol is perfectly capable of shooting through a wall to hit a target beyond, this means it is possible for an entire battle to be fought thoruhg floors, ceilings and walls without visual contact ever being made.

Note that its assumed that many troops will have motion detectors or other scanners in combat (Auspex.) and that this isn't unusual (although the rule seems to be that this kind of equipment is usually assigned on a case by case basis.)

Also note that laspistols are assumed to be able to shoot through walls - brick walls as specified above.

If we assume. a 2-3 cm diameter hole, vaporized through the brick wall, and that the brick is ~10 cm thick (about the thickness of a fist maybe) we can assume between 70-150 grams or so of mass affected. VAporizing through that much bric (assuming silicon) can result in yields between b]910 kilojoules and 2 megajoules[/b] at least.

If we go with melting/boiling (melting point 1700K, 3500K roughly for boiling, and specific heat of 710 J/kg*K. Heat of fusion will be between 1.8 and 1.9 MJ per kg... energies will be 2.8 MJ to 4.2 MJ per kg depending on melting or boiling.
For melting the energy input will be nearly 200-420 kilojoules, boiling would be ~300-630 kj.) (Note: The links for the above data can be found here for [url=http://www.chemicool.com/elements/silicon.html]Specific heat and melting/boiling points and here for Heat of fusion

Of course if we want to be really conservative we refer to the trusty Atomic Rockets sidearms page

Smart guy on Atomic rockets wrote: I'm assuming a weapon designed to penetrate ~30cm in soft body tissue. This gives about 15cm in bone or plastic, 5cm in brick or concrete, or 2.5cm in steel or most ceramics. Synthetics won't be very good at stopping energy weapons, even tough ones like kevlar, but you might be able to find a ceramic that could stop a laser beam with a centimeter's thickness or so.

With the 10cm figure I assume above, it would be at least 2 kilojoules for a laspistol. I say "at least" because the diameter of lasguns even the smallest (half a centimeter as per "Only in Death") is far larger than the maximum efficiency specified in Atomic rockets, so it could easily be many times (say an order of magnitude) or greater - nevermind its designed to penetrate and be lethal (we could assume at least another kilojoule if not several once you factor in an armored body, so it more liekly could be called 3-4 kilojoules minimum, perhaps five depending on the type of armor.)

Nonetheless, this represents a nice range of values for the humble laspistol, and it doesn't neccesarily factor in inefficiencies or setting either. And Lasguns would be considerably more powerful (3-6x at least if we go by modern assualt rifles/battle rifles vs modern pistols)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-20 05:15pm

More Battlezone Cityfight...

Page 12

Lightly constructed buildings:
Examples: Wood, Glass, plexilgas, thin metal, plastic, open-work girders, pipes and railings.

Heavily constructed buildings
Examples: armaplas, rockcrete, adamantim, solid steel, or plasteel.

Useful to note what consideres durable materials able to stand up t infantry weaponry, and useful as a benchamrk for 40K materials, albiet given the already long discussed interpretations of "steel", it would be low end

Page 17

The Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes follow doctrines laid down over ten thousand years. There is no combat enviroment thier organisation and equipment is not flexible enough to handle.

..

The only exception is that all Chapters get the ability to upgrade their tanks to carry siege armour.

Siege armour is "all around" protection like Demolishers (rather than having thinner side and back armor). And the Chapters of the Space Marines (or at least one sthat follow the Codex, it assumes) don't seem to have much need for imgaination - its assumed their tactics and organzaitions are adapted for virtually any situation (apparently in contrast to the other arms of the Imperium?)

Page 17

During the Battle for Infernus Hive during the Third War for Armageddon a vindicare Assassin was responsible for a hundred and nineteen confirmed Ork kills in a little under eight hours.

..

Vindicare Assassins can use ammunition loaded with superior neuro-toxins similar to those used by veteran Deathwrold snipers.

Vindicare can use equivalents to Deathworld poisons. Also, vindicaire kill rates in a realtively short timeframe. No sure if this is typical or exceptional, even for Vindicare.

Page 17

Siege Armour: A number of tanks, such as the Vindicator and Leman Russ Demolisher, are constructed with extra armour designed to make them less vulnerable to fire in a city enviroment. The main adaptation is that the armour is extended to the hull roof to deal with high-trajectory fire..

Further elaboration on Siege armor. Apparently it is thick enough to slow the tank down, since as I recall Demolishers are slower than standard Russes.

Page 18

Like their craftworld cousins though, they cannot sustain a cifyfight for long although they are deadly in the short term. Few defences cannot be overflown by their Raiders and btween them Reavers, Mandrakes and Hellions can spread terror very quickly.

Dark Eldar (like Eldar) are not good at long battles. Quite plausible, given their lesser numbers, superior tech, and high mobility. It does hint that you can outlast them if they can't overwhelm you, though.

Page 18

The Traitor Legions are feared exponents of urban warfare. In the Eye of Terror the cities of Skalathrax were fought over by the World Eaters na the Emperor's Children. During the Horus Heresy they fought room to room within the Emperor's Palace. on vogen the Night Lords were ever at the forefront of the Chaos Attack. Because the legions of Chaos fight their Black Crusades against the Imperial Cult its cities are a popular battleground.

Insane Chaos minions + constant warfare means good at close quarters fighting. Cities of course have lots of juicy victims for Chaos gods and daemons (and human shields to use against the Imperium)

Page 18

The Eldar have the potential to be utterly deadly in the confines of a city. The agility and skill of their Exarchs, the power of their Wraithlords and the ability of their grav-vehicles to overfly the rubble-laden streets makes them formidable indeed. Over a sustained battle however, the Eldar will start to recoil from the steady attrition of a cityfight; unable to replace their losses they walk a fine line between quick victory and slow defeat.

..

All the Eldar have the same natural reluctance to get involved in drawn out cityfights. Only Iyanden with its powerful Wriathlord and Wraithguard formations has a real talent for urban warfare.

Despite their "potential" to be effective in urban warfare, they don't have the endurance to fight for very long in those enviroments. Unless they prefer usage of Wraithguard (like Iyanden)

Page 18

As the fighting on Armageddon has proved beyond doubt, Orks are powerful enemies in the close quarter maelstrom of city fighting. Their toughness and ferocity makes them a natural for this most dangerou senviroment. Unlike their swifter Kult of Speed kin, Ork warbands can rely upon large numbers of well equipped shock troops led by Dreadnoughts and Killer Kans with plenty of artillery in support.

Despite what the Upliftig Primer and Imperial Propoganda have said, Orks are tough bastards and their traits make them good at cityfighting like Choas.

Page 18-19

The main problems encountered by the Imperial Guard in cityfights are caused by their inflexible organisation. LArge ten-man squads are unable to provide proper coverign fire and the massed firepower of their support weapon teams can rarely be brought to bea rin the confined spaces of the urban battlefield. Many Imperial Guard regiments will therefore adopt a more flexible organisation to reflect the circumstances.\

..

Anti-tank heavy weapon squads and fire support heavy weapon squads can be split into two man teamseach with a single heavy weapon.

..

These teams are normally used to man small bunkers covering critical approaches or to provide fire suppport agianst a fixed position.

..

Storm Troopers not mounted in a Chimera and normal Imperila Guard squads within an Infantry platoon may be split to form two five-man fire teams.

The "inflexibility' in the Guard doctrine is described here, but it is largely a inflexibility "on paper" or "in theory" - ie that is what the Guar dis taught to believe or think or whatever. In practice (on the field) grgeater flexibility is employed. This is, we learn, true of a great many things between the Guard in the field and t hose who make the rules for the Guard (in safety, no doubt.) As a note of differences, we can look at the Ghosts in the ABnett novels and their procedures (since they are well known for that sort of thing, but hardly unique either.) or the relatively common use of 5 man "fire teams" (EG as often mentioned in the Cain novels.)

Page 19

Steel Legion units are rarely deployed in cityfights, they are open-country formations designed to swiftly achieve breakthroughs and encirclements. There are times when they are drawn into this type of battle though and, like the Imperial Guard the galaxy over, hav done their duty with honour.

Mechanized units like the Steel Legions, like non-Demolisher tanks, are meant more for "open field" warfare where their mobility and clear lines of sight are an advantage. Nonetheless, all Guardsmen (as has been indicated by the Tactica imperialis) is expected to perform whatever duty may be at hand regardless of their training or specialty, and this means that even the Steel Legion will do attrition warfare or cityfighting if the circumstances merit it.

Krieg I imagine, is good at cityfighting. So would your average hive ganger regiment (A hive being the ultimate city)

Page 19

Whilst the tough, resourceful jungle fighters [Catachans] make good troops to have in a cityfight they do not see enough of this type of combat to make any organisational changes.

Jungle warfare would have some similarities to city fighting I imagine, and coupled with the innate capabilities of the Catachans (or other Deathworlders) its understandable that they might not make any dramatic changes to their organisation to adapt to this.

Page 20

In the grand Assault mission the attackers and defenders have access to a range of special equipment which is detailed later in the Attacker's and Defneder's armoury. As can be seen from the list these are mostly based on Imperial technology and when using other races alternative depictions should be used. For example, if the Tyranids are dfending then razorwire should be replaced with barbed thermotropic vines, tank traps with vitrified plants, bunkers with brood nests, command activated mines with vairant spore mines that adhere to wall and blend their colouration to match.

Elaboration on "special equipment" available, which will be described later. Everything mentioned is Imperial stnadard, but it is also indicated that the other races have their analogues naturally, so this stuff isn't uncommon.

Page 20

Bunkers within buildings are represented by fortiifed buildings.

..

For the Eldar and Dark Eldar these will be replaced by survival pods, Ork bunkers look ramshackle but function as normal, and Tyranids use fortified nests.

Bunkers and the analogues they can represent, especially among racial variants.

Page 20

Sentry guns are similar to the old Tarantula design popularised during the Gothic War. They can be placed to cover approaches to key positions and, unlike normal sentries, never doze off or reminisce abou tthe girls back home.

The well and oft-mentioned Taratnula guns. Evidence that the machine spirit operated devices (like grav tech) are not rare or unheard of In the imperial military.

Page 20

Fortifications: Represents sandbags, barricades, etc.

Example of what a fortifcation is (at least in combat terms in 40K) May be useful to know.

Azazal · Post by **Azazal** » 2009-08-21 11:05am

Connor MacLeod wrote:More Necron stuff coming up...
Page 11
After pursuing the invaders ot the Noctis Labyrinthus, a mine complex in the northern reaches of Mars, defence ships were finally able to catch the Necron vessels. Though all five were destroyed, it was only at a fearfully high cost, and one of the hsips actually managed to land on the blessed red soil of Mars itself before being vapourised.

..

.. various vocal members of the Adeptus Mechanicus have voised wildly differing opinions regarding the future of the mine complex, ranging from its total destruction to the enforcement of a Perditia zone. Fresh from his expedition to the dead world of Naogeddon, Magos Prime Reston Egal has proved the most strident in his criesf or the site's destrucition with fusion bombs and its sealing with ferrocrete...
Notcis LAbyrinthus is the place I believe the Void Dragon is being kept buried on Mars - or at least what is implied as the location. This probably explains greatly why the AdMech are such total dicks.

I believe Reston Egal has been infiltrated and compromised by the Necrons, if not actually a C'tan in disguise.

It also says something about the Necrons that they could penetrate and withstand the firepower of Mars's defense network (Terra being the best defended locale in the Imperium), even if they were destroyed.

Forgot you had this thread going, following up on this snippet, from Mechanicum:
Spoiler

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-22 12:31am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Krieg I imagine, is good at cityfighting. So would your average hive ganger regiment (A hive being the ultimate city)

If you can find the 3rd War for Armageddon Codex, Hive Gang militia were instrumental in the (bat-shit fanatical) defense of either Hades Hive, or Hive infernus.

The new Imperial Guard Codex describes five "Siege Companies" of the Death Korps, detailed on a punitive expedition against a hive city that ceased its Imperial Tithes. They shelled the city for 10 years, until it was "powder and dust". That was three years after they ceased detecting life signs in the ruins, five years after it surrendered unconditionally, and ~9 years after they massacred a break-out attempt.

The only new or bizarre thing about the instance, in reference to the Death Korps, is that they don't feel the need to be Kamikaze Storm Troops all the time. This is refreshing.

The Catachans are very potent as well. Catachan Devil Squads went Lictor hunting in a sewer network, and after their first few kills, smeared themselves head to foot in Tyranid entrails, so they could ambush the Lictors (which they did).

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-22 12:54am

Addendum: This is some math I did over at SB, based in part out of the 3rd Edition RB.

3rd Edition Rulebook, Page 114
[Hive Worlds]
Population: ≤ 500,000,000,000 ≥ 100,000,000,000
Tithe Grade: Decuma Particular-Exactis Extremis
Aggregate: 1,400
Aestimare: B50-R400
Comments: Surface generally inhospitable, even deadly, to human life after centuries of processing. Urban conglomerations called Hives, many miles in height, are principle population centers. Factory, mining, and atmosphere processing are main industries. High import / export ratio, particularly foodstuffs and fresh water incoming.

Fifth Edition Rulebook, Page 115

Hiveworld Minea has a population of 154 Billion, and there are ~32380 Hive Worlds in the IoM. Minea's planetary draft is 1.249 million per year, compared to Regimental Tithe Worlds contributing between 5 to in excess of 50 million per year (p.138)

So some simple mathematics, albeit with a pile of zeroes.

32380 x 100 Billion/500 Billion

somebody check me on this: 3.238x10^15 to 1.619x10^16 people on Hive Worlds, so we're into the single/double digit quadrillions of people with just Rulebook data for just Hive Worlds, and we've got 967,620 worlds to go, taking "million worlds" trope at face value.

Moreover, if Minea is any indicator, these planets are best described "not mobilized". Another Hive World mentioned, Coronis Agathon, has 10 million soldiers for a population of 120 Billion (same citation).

So mobilizing Hive Worlds on a Total War scale (~10-12% of population under arms, all male) yields ~388 trillion soldiers using the low-end hive world number, again, discounting the rest of the Imperium of Man.

The Calixis Sector also has 10 Forge Worlds in it (p.288-89 DH Rulebook)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-22 05:22pm

Armageddon in the 5th edition guardbook is described as having an annual tithe of some hundreds of millions per year. Most of the major regiments (Krieg, Valhallan, Vostryoa, Tallarn, etc.) that are hive or hive like probably have similar tithes. Krieg's is probably evne higher given their affinity for attritional warfare.

If you REALLY want fun though, you should try working out the transport ability they need PER YEAR to haul that many troops away. And then from the transport numbers try to work out how many escort squadrons they need.

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-22 10:33pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Armageddon in the 5th edition guardbook is described as having an annual tithe of some hundreds of millions per year. Most of the major regiments (Krieg, Valhallan, Vostryoa, Tallarn, etc.) that are hive or hive like probably have similar tithes. Krieg's is probably evne higher given their affinity for attritional warfare.

And Tallarn, Catachan, Armageddon, Valhalla and Vostroya are all listed on page 138 as liable for > 50 million soldiers per year.

Connor MacLeod wrote:If you REALLY want fun though, you should try working out the transport ability they need PER YEAR to haul that many troops away. And then from the transport numbers try to work out how many escort squadrons they need.

That might be stretching it some with the escorts, but can't size and capacity of transports be found in Gaunt's Ghosts? That aside, I'd like to establish some firm numbers for industrial potential; that's why I included the 10 forge worlds for the Calixis Sector, as we know they've only been there for 1000 years, assuming they were constructed while St. Drusus was conquering that part of the galaxy.

But what really irks me is the "artificial world" category and its vagaries. Why the hell has nobody in 40kverse, of all places, written more on something called the Doomsday Bastions?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-23 04:38pm

Falkenhayn wrote: That might be stretching it some with the escorts,

Why? They can't very well go and leave most transports unguarded due to piracy, they often have to provide some escort. About the only time you get otherwise is during wartime, when loss of transports is weighed against necessity of supplies (IE running blockades of Port Maw in the gothic war)

I cannot think of many cases where they would NOT escort a transport fleet, especially since many Guard armies require supplies and munitions as well as vehicles and support personnel (which multiplies the number of transports needed) nevermind the need for Naval orbital support (bombardment and air support.)

but can't size and capacity of transports be found in Gaunt's Ghosts?

There, or Battlefleet gothic, or many other novels. Imperial Armour 3 would be good, as would 5/6 (both of which deal with Vraks). Transports cna show up alot of different places. Some of the Guard novels (like Gunheads or Desert Raiders) would be a good example, as would the Cain novels. Anywhere, really where you get large armies getting transported to a War Zone would do.

That aside, I'd like to establish some firm numbers for industrial potential; that's why I included the 10 forge worlds for the Calixis Sector, as we know they've only been there for 1000 years, assuming they were constructed while St. Drusus was conquering that part of the galaxy.

Forge worlds as a rule seem less common than Hive Worlds. I;'ve tried establishing benchmarks for both in the past but I dont think those values hold anymore given 5th edition. Hell, I've been looking back at BFG and its been indicated that some sectors/subsectors won't neccesarily even HAVE a Hive or Forge world. Nevermind that "Hive world" as a rule in Dark Heresy tends to be used interchangably with "civilised world" and such (the terminology ofr worlds in there is very confusing), so its possible Forge world is also.

We know there are "thousands" of Forge Worlds from Imperial Armour 1 and (IIRC) the Soul Drinkers novel Crimson Tears. Using previously estimated ratios (1 forge world per 3-5 hive worlds in the Imperium) you might figure on 6-10K forge worlds existing.

To that I assume that "forge world" has nuances of meaning the same way "hive worlds" do. That is, that there is no absolute "defining point" what becomes a forge world, any heavily industrialised world (even a hive world) could become a Forge world eventually, just as any world can become a hive world given sufficient time and growth.

This means therea re "True" Forge worlds, as well as probable "quasi forge" world places like Vostroya, as well as super-industrialized Hive worlds (like Necromunda or Armageddon), and just run of the mill industrial worlds (which are technically "civilised", but with more of an industrial leaning.

As such you may have many "Forge worlds" which are in an intermediate state of transition from one state to another (akin to various Hive Worlds that have say tens of billions of people, but aren't truly insanely overcrowded and still have a vaguely tolerable atmosphere - eg Hydraphur and Verghast)

But what really irks me is the "artificial world" category and its vagaries. Why the hell has nobody in 40kverse, of all places, written more on something called the Doomsday Bastions?

Because as far as I know thats a new invention with 5th edition, so its probably not been elaborated on yet. We know that the Imperium has a not-insignificant "void born" population - people who exist/live on its millions (billions?) of starships, as well as countless however many stations, orbitals, and whatever may or may not exist, asteroid mining places, whatever. As WR has indicated i nthe past, this may indicate something akin to Blackstone Fortresses or Fortress worlds (mentioned in the Sabbat Worlds crusade). They may be the naval equivalent of Munitorum Stockpiles and fleet reserves (where the really badass stuff the Imperium keeps in emergencies are kept.) Or may be (again as WR indicates) facilities specialized for orbital bombardment and/or Exterminatus. Or may carry such gear (or hold specialized shit like assassins, or whatever.)

From what Iv'e gathered "artificail worlds" just basically refer to everything the Imperium has that its void born population exists on that isn't a starship, pure and simple. Such would serve to only inflate the numbers already established, since few (not evne I) have really bothered considering the void born aspects.

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-24 12:30am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Why? They can't very well go and leave most transports unguarded due to piracy, they often have to provide some escort. About the only time you get otherwise is during wartime, when loss of transports is weighed against necessity of supplies (IE running blockades of Port Maw in the gothic war)

I cannot think of many cases where they would NOT escort a transport fleet, especially since many Guard armies require supplies and munitions as well as vehicles and support personnel (which multiplies the number of transports needed) nevermind the need for Naval orbital support (bombardment and air support.)

Ok.

But the stumbling block is still "...well why don't they?" and there's a million reasons from IoM history and government structure explaining the lack of organization.

Some good work could be done on the Biomass Denial operations vs. Hive Fleet Leviathan, with additional evidence from Planetkill, but I don't have those sources right now.

There, or Battlefleet gothic, or many other novels. Imperial Armour 3 would be good, as would 5/6 (both of which deal with Vraks). Transports cna show up alot of different places. Some of the Guard novels (like Gunheads or Desert Raiders) would be a good example, as would the Cain novels. Anywhere, really where you get large armies getting transported to a War Zone would do.

Alright. Will look into those while I still have time.

Forge worlds as a rule seem less common than Hive Worlds. I;'ve tried establishing benchmarks for both in the past but I dont think those values hold anymore given 5th edition. Hell, I've been looking back at BFG and its been indicated that some sectors/subsectors won't neccesarily even HAVE a Hive or Forge world. Nevermind that "Hive world" as a rule in Dark Heresy tends to be used interchangably with "civilised world" and such (the terminology ofr worlds in there is very confusing), so its possible Forge world is also.

We know there are "thousands" of Forge Worlds from Imperial Armour 1 and (IIRC) the Soul Drinkers novel Crimson Tears. Using previously estimated ratios (1 forge world per 3-5 hive worlds in the Imperium) you might figure on 6-10K forge worlds existing.

To that I assume that "forge world" has nuances of meaning the same way "hive worlds" do. That is, that there is no absolute "defining point" what becomes a forge world, any heavily industrialised world (even a hive world) could become a Forge world eventually, just as any world can become a hive world given sufficient time and growth.

This means therea re "True" Forge worlds, as well as probable "quasi forge" world places like Vostroya, as well as super-industrialized Hive worlds (like Necromunda or Armageddon), and just run of the mill industrial worlds (which are technically "civilised", but with more of an industrial leaning.

As such you may have many "Forge worlds" which are in an intermediate state of transition from one state to another (akin to various Hive Worlds that have say tens of billions of people, but aren't truly insanely overcrowded and still have a vaguely tolerable atmosphere - eg Hydraphur and Verghast)

The reason I'm talking about them is because we can assume that building a forge world (in the Sovereign Territory of the Cult Mechanicus sense) is something the Ad Mech takes seriously, and they were starting from the ground up. We know from Hammer of Demons that Forge Worlds devote a proportion of their output to self-improvement, which just makes sense. But reasoning over it now, forge world construction, like how long it takes to build one, would be a very challenging metric for nailing down the abilities of the Mechanicus, for these same reasons.

Because as far as I know thats a new invention with 5th edition, so its probably not been elaborated on yet. We know that the Imperium has a not-insignificant "void born" population - people who exist/live on its millions (billions?) of starships, as well as countless however many stations, orbitals, and whatever may or may not exist, asteroid mining places, whatever. As WR has indicated i nthe past, this may indicate something akin to Blackstone Fortresses or Fortress worlds (mentioned in the Sabbat Worlds crusade). They may be the naval equivalent of Munitorum Stockpiles and fleet reserves (where the really badass stuff the Imperium keeps in emergencies are kept.) Or may be (again as WR indicates) facilities specialized for orbital bombardment and/or Exterminatus. Or may carry such gear (or hold specialized shit like assassins, or whatever.)

Makes sense, Segementum Solar Bastion Fleets and all. In fact I'd lean toward that explanation.

From what Iv'e gathered "artificail worlds" just basically refer to everything the Imperium has that its void born population exists on that isn't a starship, pure and simple. Such would serve to only inflate the numbers already established, since few (not evne I) have really bothered considering the void born aspects.

ok.

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2009-08-24 10:52pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:To that I assume that "forge world" has nuances of meaning the same way "hive worlds" do. That is, that there is no absolute "defining point" what becomes a forge world, any heavily industrialised world (even a hive world) could become a Forge world eventually, just as any world can become a hive world given sufficient time and growth.

This means therea re "True" Forge worlds, as well as probable "quasi forge" world places like Vostroya, as well as super-industrialized Hive worlds (like Necromunda or Armageddon), and just run of the mill industrial worlds (which are technically "civilised", but with more of an industrial leaning.

As such you may have many "Forge worlds" which are in an intermediate state of transition from one state to another (akin to various Hive Worlds that have say tens of billions of people, but aren't truly insanely overcrowded and still have a vaguely tolerable atmosphere - eg Hydraphur and Verghast)

I'd have seen it as the other way around - Forge Worlds are only those owned by the Adeptus Mechanicus. They might be minor colonies, basically Civilised worlds or Hive Worlds (if they're Agriworlds they're Knight Worlds I guess), but the Forge designator overrides the other.

Sure in practice Armageddon may have a greater industrial output than many 'real' Forge Worlds, but because it's not actually an Ad Mech world it's not the same stuff, and it's directly funneled into Imperial stockpiles (minus what's kept locally by the governer), rather than being sold/exchanged/bartered/whatever.

A normal world can't just become a Forge World, because that means that the Tech Priests have taken over, and it's left the Imperium proper (you can certainly imagine such a case, but it's not going to be common).

Oh, and a note on the escorts: Transports can have basic self-defence weapons, and most of their time in real-space could be covered by in-system, non-warp capable ships. Most pirates are fairly small-scale and could be fended off by an organised convoy, leaving true military vessels to cover those in real warzones.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-25 03:06pm

Falkenhayn wrote: But the stumbling block is still "...well why don't they?" and there's a million reasons from IoM history and government structure explaining the lack of organization.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not asking a hypothetical "why wouldn't they escort?" I'm saying that "to my knowledge there is no evidence they don't put escorts on convoys as a rule. I can only remember a few cases involving either Inquisitors (RAvenor and Eisenhorn, and in both cases they were TRYING to be incognito) and Caves of Ice (which was an impromptu mission in all respects and they had little time for preparation of any kind). Other Cain novels feature convoy escorts (at lest for troop ships and military shipping). Hell BFG makes repeated mention of "escorted" convoys but hardly any of unescorted (convoy MISSIONS, which is one of the scenarios depicted, includes escorts, and escort classification and battlefleet duties are mentioned as also being escort duties, at least for smaller ships.)

It is possible merchant shipping is a different case entirely, but most of that would be at the inter-sector level anyway so there probably are other means at hand (short range, non navigator vessels, armed merchant cruisers and Q-ships, Galaxy class transports, etc.)

Some good work could be done on the Biomass Denial operations vs. Hive Fleet Leviathan, with additional evidence from Planetkill, but I don't have those sources right now.

not sure I follow you here, since I haven't read Planetkill yet and its been awhile since I looked into the Kryptmann solution.

The reason I'm talking about them is because we can assume that building a forge world (in the Sovereign Territory of the Cult Mechanicus sense) is something the Ad Mech takes seriously, and they were starting from the ground up. We know from Hammer of Demons that Forge Worlds devote a proportion of their output to self-improvement, which just makes sense. But reasoning over it now, forge world construction, like how long it takes to build one, would be a very challenging metric for nailing down the abilities of the Mechanicus, for these same reasons.

Perhaps, but remember that there really isn't a whole lot of trust or cooperation between Forge worlds for the most part (which is why you have forge worlds specializing in certain things, like Ryza, or the ones that produce Baneblades or Vanquishers, etc..) so actually "settling" a new Forge world is probably a tricky thing (whose going to provide the assistance?) more likely that the AdMech colonizes/discovers some planet that they mine for resources (Eg like the Knight worlds) that eventually becomes a Forge world, or they involve themselves heavily in some world and gradually transfer alleigance to the AdMech from the Imperium if they proof worthy (EG "Vostroya")

That said, if they have and use automated machinery (which they do) they probably grow at an exponential rate, although the speed of growth is still unknown (slow?)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-25 03:06pm

Shortie wrote: I'd have seen it as the other way around - Forge Worlds are only those owned by the Adeptus Mechanicus. They might be minor colonies, basically Civilised worlds or Hive Worlds (if they're Agriworlds they're Knight Worlds I guess), but the Forge designator overrides the other.

Yes, I am aware of that.

Sure in practice Armageddon may have a greater industrial output than many 'real' Forge Worlds, but because it's not actually an Ad Mech world it's not the same stuff, and it's directly funneled into Imperial stockpiles (minus what's kept locally by the governer), rather than being sold/exchanged/bartered/whatever.

There's more to a Forge world than just vast industrial output. They're the chief (if only) sources of what the Imperium has of research and development, reverse engineering, and general technology. Places like Armageddon at best mearly "lease" the technology, knowhow, and whatever. Worlds will have varying levels of connection to the AdMech, in part due to this leasing.

A normal world can't just become a Forge World, because that means that the Tech Priests have taken over, and it's left the Imperium proper (you can certainly imagine such a case, but it's not going to be common).

Why not? The AdMech help rule over Vostroya, and that one provides regiments to the Guard. Its neither a Forge nor a Hive world - referred to as a "Industrial" or "Manufactorum" or "industrial" world. Yet if its providing regiments and stuff to the Imperium, that means its under the auspices of the Imperium as well. And Vostroya isn't alone, there are lots other "Manufactorum" worlds mentioned in the 5th edition rulebook (Black Reach, Pindax, Aten III, Drask, etc.).

What likely happens is that certain worlds form close technological ties with the Adeptus Mechanicus, through more and more licensing, traiing of techpriests, etc. Its possible these worlds then become industrial/manufactorum worlds over time, with the AdMech having greater and greater influence. Given enough time, they may choose to "Join" the Mechanicus voluntarily and become (eventually) a forge world. Who is going to say no? Its to the Imperium's benefit to have more forge worlds, and the AdMech is fairly crucial to the smooth running of things. We know the Admech can gain "sovereign" territory over parts of a planet too (places where they keep their temples/shrines/forges, etc) so why is it impossible they could gain control over a whole planet that way?

Oh, and a note on the escorts: Transports can have basic self-defence weapons, and most of their time in real-space could be covered by in-system, non-warp capable ships. Most pirates are fairly small-scale and could be fended off by an organised convoy, leaving true military vessels to cover those in real warzones.

Warp space is a danger in the form of pirates, especially Chaos raiders (who can get daemonic aid for their vessels.) And yes, warships can be armed, but they typically aren't as good as a warship escort unless they're specifically designed as an "armed merchant" cruiser or even a Q-ship.

Serafina · Post by **Serafina** » 2009-08-25 03:20pm

Actually, we have seen Macropoles and even individual Houses doing research. Or rather, they advance their engineering.
In Necropolis, various houses created new and shiny "toys" - fractal, mechanical flowers, homunculi and the tech-disabling amulet.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2009-08-25 04:09pm

Serafina wrote:Actually, we have seen Macropoles and even individual Houses doing research. Or rather, they advance their engineering.
In Necropolis, various houses created new and shiny "toys" - fractal, mechanical flowers, homunculi and the tech-disabling amulet.

Actually, House Sondar (and therefore likely the other houses) were working in cooperation with the AdMech.

Necropolis wrote: In the time of Heironymo, House Sondar had specialised in codifier systems and sentient cogitators, and they had enjoyed long-term trade partnerships and research pacts with the tech-mages of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

In fact, we know that fiddling with the AdMech's stuff without their authority or blessing can get you tossed into a penal legion (Cf Quidlon from Kill Team) About the only things that could be considered exceptions to this rule are places like the Underhive of hive cities (where Techpriests rarely if ever venture) and the unofficial but tolerated tinkering with gear (like souping up Leman Russ or Salamander engines to give them higher speeds.) and neither really qualifies as "research"

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-25 05:22pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: But the stumbling block is still "...well why don't they?" and there's a million reasons from IoM history and government structure explaining the lack of organization.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not asking a hypothetical "why wouldn't they escort?" I'm saying that "to my knowledge there is no evidence they don't put escorts on convoys as a rule. I can only remember a few cases involving either Inquisitors (RAvenor and Eisenhorn, and in both cases they were TRYING to be incognito) and Caves of Ice (which was an impromptu mission in all respects and they had little time for preparation of any kind). Other Cain novels feature convoy escorts (at lest for troop ships and military shipping). Hell BFG makes repeated mention of "escorted" convoys but hardly any of unescorted (convoy MISSIONS, which is one of the scenarios depicted, includes escorts, and escort classification and battlefleet duties are mentioned as also being escort duties, at least for smaller ships.)

It is possible merchant shipping is a different case entirely, but most of that would be at the inter-sector level anyway so there probably are other means at hand (short range, non navigator vessels, armed merchant cruisers and Q-ships, Galaxy class transports, etc.)

Oh no, I take your meaning, and accept your reasoning.

But I was referring back to the hive worlds' gross population vs. mobilized, and why it's so ludicrously small (13th BCC, "Time of ENDING!!!", Hive Fleets Ernie, Bert and Cookie Monster etc). All I did was hang a number on the IoM's possible/practical manpower pool. I don't know enough about IoM industrial potential to determine if outfitting 400 Trillion men in all military respects is possible or practical. I'm inclined to say yes, resoundingly, but this is only based off my impressions of its capabilities, rather than sound data. I may be ignorant of work others have done on the subject; I am not saying that an evaluation of Imperial industry doesn't exist.

not sure I follow you here, since I haven't read Planetkill yet and its been awhile since I looked into the Kryptmann solution.

Planetkill has a short about a world being entirely strip mined by the Administratum. In the last phase of the world's existence, its oceans are evaporated and carried off in ships of specific design. At the end of the story, the Administratum calculates that it would take them 3000 years to strip a similar world.

IIRC, the Kryptmann Solution has successfully evacuated and Exterminatused 46 worlds of their populations and industries. I also think there's a time frame put on that.

Perhaps, but remember that there really isn't a whole lot of trust or cooperation between Forge worlds for the most part (which is why you have forge worlds specializing in certain things, like Ryza, or the ones that produce Baneblades or Vanquishers, etc..) so actually "settling" a new Forge world is probably a tricky thing (whose going to provide the assistance?) more likely that the AdMech colonizes/discovers some planet that they mine for resources (Eg like the Knight worlds) that eventually becomes a Forge world, or they involve themselves heavily in some world and gradually transfer alleigance to the AdMech from the Imperium if they proof worthy (EG "Vostroya")

That said, if they have and use automated machinery (which they do) they probably grow at an exponential rate, although the speed of growth is still unknown (slow?)

I don't have a copy of Hammer with me (read it in an afternoon at B&N), but the AdMech has specific grades of forge world development (read: construction capability from Lasguns to Titans to Warships) and a very firm idea of how long it takes a Forge World to move from one level to the next utilizing its own facilities, or given its official output and knowledge base. This is a centuries long process, so yes, slow.

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-26 02:05am

388 Trillion (low end #) Guardsmen would require 74.6 million Emperor's Faithful type troopships (5th ed. RB, p. 127) to transport, per year.

When the Black Templars killed the Cacodominus, an alien being that held 1300 systems and their populations in its psykic thrall, it created a distortion in the Warp that killed 1 Billion Astropaths, and sent "millions upon millions" of ships adrift (5th Ed. RB, p. 124). This was 401.M34, or 8000 years before the current timeline, so it's a decent measure of how resilient the IoM is.

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2009-08-26 04:16am

Falkenhayn wrote:388 Trillion (low end #) Guardsmen would require 74.6 million Emperor's Faithful type troopships (5th ed. RB, p. 127) to transport, per year.

When the Black Templars killed the Cacodominus, an alien being that held 1300 systems and their populations in its psykic thrall, it created a distortion in the Warp that killed 1 Billion Astropaths, and sent "millions upon millions" of ships adrift (5th Ed. RB, p. 124). This was 401.M34, or 8000 years before the current timeline, so it's a decent measure of how resilient the IoM is.

More to the point though, this number represents the transportation of the IoM's entire estimated (albeit very, very low end) manpower pool in one year.

The more accurate calculation is therefore between:

32380x 1,249,000 and
32380x 10,000,000

So an annual induction of between 40.44 and 323.8 Billion Guardsmen per year from the IoM's Hive Worlds, requiring between 7,777 and 62,269 Emperor's Faithful type troopships. Which of course ignores the rest of the IoM, and the Regimental Tithe Worlds rated over 50 Million conscripts per year, and assumes all Hive Worlds are rated for 1-10 million conscripts.

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