Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

[Connor MacLeod]

The comedy of a 'steam' gargant largely stems from very old fluff where Primitive Orks could make steam powered gargants (probably fossil fueled like some of their cybernetics) rather than nuclear power (what more 'advanced' Orks use generally) Of course we've seen fossil fuel starfighters for Orks too so the 'comedy' value is a bit relative (more funny out of universe than in universe.)

Its no worse than giant dinosaur analogues defeating Titans of course

Wow, how many different times do they have to tell us how corrosive those Tyranid biotoxins are?
That was quite a few different ways to say that they dissolve armor and flesh, we kinda got it the first couple of times

Btw, where do you get Hive War?
The Specialist Games section on GW's site has some Epic books in PDF form there, I grabbed them all but I think they only cover Imperium (Guard, Astartes and Titan Legios); I can't find the Tyranid stuff.

As Andrew noted its early 1st/2nd edition stuff, which is where alot of the 'epic' stuff as we know it came throuhg (Epic Armageddon it seems never really took off... just one 'swordwind' supplement detailing Biel Tan and Siege armies, and that was it.)

[Cykeisme]

Ah, it's a shame Epic didn't really take off.

Now it seems that since 40k is popular enough, GW is trying to encourage people to play games of similar scope in normal 40k scale, with their Apocalypse thing. Not to mention buy huge expensive models for it.

[Kojiro]

Epic (or rather Space Marine) did take off- it was quite popular. Right up until GW pulled the reset button and utterly changed the game. The new Epic 40k was actually a very good game mechanically speaking but by this time (when I was working for GW) the customer base was shifted to the younger audience who want more cinematic games.

Now it seems that since 40k is popular enough, GW is trying to encourage people to play games of similar scope in normal 40k scale, with their Apocalypse thing. Not to mention buy huge expensive models for it.

The 'problem' with Epic was that it a) took sales away from 40k and b) was comparatively cheap to obtain an extremely filled out army. That and it was a massive source (as Connor has pointed out) of 40K lore that could be exploited. So now 40K IS Epic with stand on stand- er squad on squad shooting, fliers, super heavies, vehicle squadrons and of course sometimes titans.

[Connor MacLeod]

Probably more like they wnat to keep selling the big models and get more people to buy them, so going for an Apocalypse style approach makes more sense than Epic.

Also this way you only have to focus on production for one line of modesl, rather than having two separate scales to produce (simplified logistics.)

[andrewgpaul]

Also, 40k and Epic had different update cycles, so they weren't always using quite the same universe or designs. 2nd edition 40k came out halfway through 2nd edition Epic/Titan Legions. The Squats were still getting new units in Epic when they'd been quietly shelved in 40k.

[Kojiro]

Probably more like they wnat to keep selling the big models and get more people to buy them, so going for an Apocalypse style approach makes more sense than Epic.

Well sure, if you goal is indeed to sell big models. But that's the crux of the problem- that 40k is being pushed into a scale it is wholly unsuited for because $$$. Fliers are a prime example- there is no place for dogfighting aircraft at 28mm, let alone strategic bombers.

Also this way you only have to focus on production for one line of modesl, rather than having two separate scales to produce (simplified logistics.)

Only in the duplicate models but that's trivial. The additional sprues and parts of the new 40k baneblade kit alone- to say nothing of the other imported items- is arguably more complex than the entire Epic plastic range. Seven very large baneblade sprues vs 10 (if you include titans!) Epic sprues, each about 1/4 the size of the baneblade sprues. And that's just for the baneblades- let alone the upgrade kits and two extra sprues available.

[Cykeisme]

Probably more like they wnat to keep selling the big models and get more people to buy them, so going for an Apocalypse style approach makes more sense than Epic.

Well sure, if you goal is indeed to sell big models. But that's the crux of the problem- that 40k is being pushed into a scale it is wholly unsuited for because $$$. Fliers are a prime example- there is no place for dogfighting aircraft at 28mm, let alone strategic bombers.

Yes, this was what I meant to articulate, though I horribly failed to put the words together.

The scale of the tabletop game is wholly inappropriate for the scope of warfare they're now attempting to portray, but they're pushing it solely for the purpose of selling large, expensive models.

Aircraft and superheavy formations are cumbersome, out of place, and don't even fit the system properly for a whole host of reasons: impractical to have warehouse-sized gaming tables, AV topping out at 14, "structure points" being a poorly thought-out way to get around the AV limit, etc.
Apocalypse outright stating that people should put aside entire days to play out games is another.


If this was a computer game, it'd be awesome to have a larger scale and a smaller scale, and a game that dynamically switched between the two, whenever a small engagement of sufficient importance occurred, such that a higher granularity was called for.
Right now, engagements of sizes that are obviously better played out at the less granular scale are being pushed, for reasons of selling these new over-sized models. Normally this is fine, but Epic has been sidelined solely because it takes sales away from the gigantic 28mm-scale models.

[andrewgpaul]

Apocalypse outright stating that people should put aside entire days to play out games is another.

To be fair, the players at whom Apocalypse is aimed were doing this already. Heck, I did it with 2nd edition 40k, which was a bloody nightmare by comparison. To an extent, Apocalypse and the big toys are there to be sold to the sort of people who would otherwise build their own. There are, after all, Apocalypse stats for Warlord and Emperor-class Titans.

Adding some new customers is another aim, of course.

[Kojiro]

See I don't have a problem with setting aside that amount of time for a game. I'll happily set aside a whole evening to play a large game of Battlestar Galactica or Game of Thrones. What I object to is the streamlining and abstraction that defies the scale. If I'm going to be moving, shooting and fighting with whole squads at a time, and I'm going to be fielding massive numbers of said squads it really makes far more sense to just use stands. If a model can't act on it's own, but only in the context of it's squad, you might as well have a stand. It makes moving (or removing) them so much easier, to say nothing of transporting them.

You could, quite easily, play a game of 40k with Epic models on their bases without any real trouble. At the end of the day it's just that Epic does epic battles better than 40k does. Scales have a certain level of abstraction and should be played at the level most suited.

In 6th at least they got a little better. At least now it matters that some of the squad are in cover and some aren't. Previously it was 'well, 11 out of 20 boyz are in cover- cover saves for all!'' which of course is just silly.

As for new customers, there's no doubt the big shiny has it's draw. I certainly can't fault GW for wanting customers but I feel they're really missing an opportunity with having the two systems. I've got my marines and despite the new codex I'll not be adding to them. But I would, if there were a viable scene, rebuild my Epic armies in a heartbeat. If nothing more it's a change of system without abandoning the fluff which is so much harder to get bored with.

Also Epic had the order token system which remains one of the best game systems I've seen in my 23 years of wargaming. It's one of the few instances where players square off directly rather than the models on the table and I think that's awesome.

[andrewgpaul]

But I would, if there were a viable scene, rebuild my Epic armies in a heartbeat. If nothing more it's a change of system without abandoning the fluff which is so much harder to get bored with.

Tactical Command. Is that enough of a scene? There's army lists out the wazoo for every faction in 40k, although getting miniatures might be problematic.

If Epic Armageddon isn't your thing, what about NetEPIC, based on 2nd edition Space Marine?

[Kojiro]

Tactical Command. Is that enough of a scene? There's army lists out the wazoo for every faction in 40k, although getting miniatures might be problematic.

If Epic Armageddon isn't your thing, what about NetEPIC, based on 2nd edition Space Marine?

By scene I mean 'local player community'. If I want to play something here it's either 40k, Warmachine or Blood Bowl. Admittedly I live in a reasonably small city but the point isn't the acquisition of rules, it's having people to play and if GW pushed another 40K based game it could be a thing. One reason I sold my Epic was because I had played 1 game with it since I got it back in 1999 (and I only sold it last year).

Like I said, mechanically all versions of Epic have been good- some of them excellent. GW has a potential winner if it would just push them. But so long as a single Baneblade costs more than a decent Epic army that'll never happen. I mean for fucks sake they're now selling Space Marines ON A COMPANY LEVEL now (and for he absurd price of $1760 no less). Even if you don't buy that in one hit many of the 40k players I know could field it from what they have anyway.

[andrewgpaul]

I found the easiest way to drum up a following was to put together two armies. The cost isn't prohibitive, and if you remove the up-front costs, you might find people are interested in giving it a go.

Also, I don't know if there's a player finder on that forum; might be a few other Adelaiders lurking in the woodwork.

[madd0ct0r]

there's a few EA playing groups in Oz, not sure where they are though. here might be a good place to ask: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/ ... 88&t=25752
failing that, try signing up on miniwars.com (covers 40k too). There's quite a few player I know who aren't on that yet though.

[Kojiro]

Dear Jeff I hope this is a joke.

Perfect for your Epic gaming.