Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

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bilateralrope
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by bilateralrope »

Littlefoot wrote:
Bounty wrote:
But if they can be transfered, they can be decoded and interpreted.
What do you base that on?
Logic. The scans necesary to transfer and reconstruct the body with its memories would be different on the return trip.
All the transporter has to do to normally is put the atoms in the same place as they are in when it does the scan. But to read minds, the computer would also need to translate the program into a readable format.
With the hundreds of years that people in st have been using transporters, isn't it logical that either a doctor or a doctor on government payroll would have used the slight diferences in the brain scans to determine what those changes were?
Oh, they would of tried. But they might not of figured out how to do it. Or they might of figured it out, but they lack the computing power to do it every time.
Or, to answer your question more directly, if i were to send a program to another computer that was not just like mine put perfectly like mine, then for that program to work it has to be readable and without corruption.
Lets say the program was encrypted and you didn't know the key or the encryption method. You can still copy the program around without any errors because you can copy the bits, even though you can't run the program because you do not know how to read it.

Now lets say you know the encryption method, but not the key. Now you can easily make an algorithm to run the program. Try every possible key until the output is a valid program, then run it. But if they use a good encryption algorithm, you won't be able to do that within a reasonable timeframe.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

loomer wrote:On the subject of small arms, I would be a big proponent of something in 7.62x51mm to fight the Borg. It's a fairly high powered round, versatile, likely quite capable of punching through the metal layering of the Borg. A design like the FAL would be ideal - low recoil for the cartridge, manageable on burst and even automatic, rugged and accurate.

Against the Borg, though, all you need to do is fire single shots lined up to cause maximum damage. They're slow as all hell - you really do have the time to just correct aim between each round, unless there are a lot of them and they're taking a fair few rounds to take down.

5.56 is also acceptable, but may have issues with overpenetration on a starship. While unlikely to punch through bulkheads into space, it's still a potential risk factor - you don't want a stray round blowing through half a dozen internal walls, as opposed to say, four.

PDWs would probably be a good idea for non-dedicated teams. While marines could be trained to use bullpup assault or battle rifles, the rest of the crew could be trained in lower powered, less recoil weapons like an MP5 or P90 analogue. Something with a decent rate of fire, minimal recoil, fair accuracy and a round with decent stopping power would be a hell of a lot better than phaser pistols. If nothing else, train the security detachment in such weapons.
You're approaching this wrong.

Why should the Federation use 20th century weapon systems?

Why shouldn't they use Federation-level tech to make Federation-level assault rifles or better weapons? Hell, that sniper rifle that was featured in Deep Space Nine show that they could build competent weapons.

I am sure that if they can get a competent design team, they could make something that would make Eugene Stoner and Nikola Kalasknikov (spelling?) cry with envy. The problem was never technology, it "is" the Federation's absurd and naive approach to weapons. Look at the later phasers, they're built like remote controls, not as anything resembling a gun. Training their crews to be competent fighters might be an abomination to them.

If I were them than I would build an SMG/PDW that can fire both caseless ammunition and can double as a coil gun (or combine the two's functionality, further increasing the standard ammunition's velocity?), and better, make it modular so that the weapon can be customized for the mission as needed. This is very important to accommodate various alien races, allowing different grips, triggers and handguards as well as to make it fit to work in different environments (heat fins for vacuum use for example).

Using electromagnetic augmentation can also help if you want to use various safety ammunition. You can make a Borg-special round (square?) or even a variety of other ammunition, possibly some less-lethal ammunition.

I would make the phaser modular too while at it.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by loomer »

There's no reason they should, but considering the actual state of their weapon systems, there's no reason not to, either. I used modern day weapons tech mostly to ease comparison for the people mentioning modern day weapon systems themselves.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

loomer wrote:There's no reason they should, but considering the actual state of their weapon systems, there's no reason not to, either. I used modern day weapons tech mostly to ease comparison for the people mentioning modern day weapon systems themselves.
No, you made specific recommendations, taking considerations of what round and weapon systems to use.

Modern weapons are good, but its fair to assume that they did develop better ones and could replicate them as easily as they would 20th century weapons.

Also, in what world would the 5.56 has overpenetration issues and the 7.62 doesn't?
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by loomer »

In the modern world, actually. From what I've been able to gather from talking to firearms enthusiasts, soldiers, and through my own research, the 5.56x45 has greater issues with overpenetration as it has similar energy placed into a smaller projectile. Obviously differing specific rounds and loads will make a difference too. You will also note I stated "four internal walls" to "half a dozen", and did not conclude the 7.62x51mm has no issues with overpenetration.

Are we no longer allowed to give modern day weaponry as examples of what would be better than the crap the Federation is using? Should I delve into purely theoretical wank to derive a weapons system, when there are functional ones extant today that are far superior to basically anything ever shown in ST canon? For all we know they never advanced in any meaningful way beyond modern weaponry when it comes to firearms, as we only have the example of one sniper rifle!

I maintain I used them to ease comparison, though upon rereading my post did not convey this point adequately.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

*sigh*
In the modern world, actually. From what I've been able to gather from talking to firearms enthusiasts, soldiers, and through my own research, the 5.56x45 has greater issues with overpenetration as it has similar energy placed into a smaller projectile.
Gathering from your previous post, I do believe you but you don't understand what "overpenetration" means.

"Overpenetration" refers to the idea that if a bullet goes clean trough the body than it did not give all its energy into the target and that the ideal is that the bullet stays in the target.

It has no effect outside of living flesh and if anything, the 7.6 NATO will create just as much problems as the 5.56, if not more.
You also do understand why 7.6 assoult rifles are no longer issued to soldiers (well, the regular ones)? It's because the recoil is too large and makes the weapon uncontrollable (or at least inaccurate) in automatic fire.

The main problem with this, is that "overpenetration" is myth as it does not make sense ballistically. You don't want a bullet to sink all that energy into its target, you want that energy used to punch trough all the way to vital organs and bones. It's not how much energy does your bullet put into someone, its what kind of work does that energy do. Which will cause greater harm, a spear thrown at you or a bag full of gelatin, both with the same weight and speed?

What you are looking for is "undercevetation" (spelling?), where the wound channel is not big enough. The only way to solve that is by increasing the calibre. But that's all for not, because the wound channel doesn't matter as much, but rather WHERE the wound channel is.

A bullet's energy is about as large as the recoil, which is hardly bigger than a punch. As Wong elegantly put it, if I punch you, you are likely to falter, but you won't die (unless you happen to be sick or something). But if I punch your internal organs than you will die.

Bullet energy does not compensate for accuracy or bullet location.

The idea of "overpenetration" dates back to 19 century idea made by Colonel Townsend Whelen in his "Small Arms Design and Ballistics". It lives to this day, because weapon enthusiasts don't study ballistics and soldiers are taught to how to use their weapons, not their design theory (which would be a waste of time).

Soldiers complain of "overpenetration" when they shot someone and they don't stop. That isn't because the bullet went all the way trough, that's actually a good thing because the wound caused is larger. Yet the target keeps going and they think the bullet is inefficient. There is nothing wrong with the bullet, its just that the bullet won't magically kill someone (the effect over range of the 5.56 and the 7.6 is another matter).

Someone high on adrenalin or even on drugs can keep moving despite severe injury to bullets. They will die in time, possibly within minutes, but not instantly and that's what the myth "overpenetration" attempts to explain.
Obviously differing specific rounds and loads will make a difference too.
At close quarters? Different rifle rounds will only give marginal difference, unless you are using very different bullets to begin with.

Besides, if you are afraid of causing damage to equipment, than you have to rethink what you are doing in the first place because almost any bullet will go trough as much as they can and do damage into whatever they go trough.

There are ways to get around this, like using buckshot, hollowpoints (I don't think the Federation is bound by the Genova Convention anymore) or the Glaser Safety Slug.
Are we no longer allowed to give modern day weaponry as examples of what would be better than the crap the Federation is using? Should I delve into purely theoretical wank to derive a weapons system, when there are functional ones extant today that are far superior to basically anything ever shown in ST canon?
Yes, you are allowed to name modern weapons for "comparison", but as it is you're just naming the name of your pet guns and ammo which doesn't give a "comperison", that's just naming your pet gun and ammo. I know what you are talking about, but that's because I read allot about firearms myself.

If you were to give a comparison, you would take a baseline weapon (like the M16 or AK/AKM, both well-known weapons) and tell what improvements could they have (whether theoretical or real). Otherwise, saying "I would use a FAL to chop 'em Borg down an' give PDWs to the rest of da crew" isn't saying much. Yes, you claim things like "low recoil", "high stopping power" (which is nonsense because bullets don't stop people), but those are good selling points their selection among modern guns, not any reason why the Federation should adopt it.

Just because something is theoretical, it doesn't have to be wank. Sure, my idea isn't solid gold, but its not completely unreasonable or unworkable (except perhaps combining both chemical and magnetic acceleration, I'm not sure about that).

Your analysis doesn't make that much sense in the first place. Why issue and train people for two separate weapons when one should be sufficient? Why use old technology when they have access to more modern and possibly superior weapons?

Also, the phaser pistols are not useless. Its ergonomics are designed by idiots and its useless against the Borg (as are all "energy-based weapons", but otherwise it is a powerful weapon.
For all we know they never advanced in any meaningful way beyond modern weaponry when it comes to firearms, as we only have the example of one sniper rifle!
A "sniper rifle" that was developed by the Federation! Unless its an unique weapon (or one developed outside the Federation), it shows that the Federation invested heavy interest into developing it. The gun has a sight that can go trough walls and obstacle's for God's sake! It would take very little to scale the weapon into another.

I am somehow certain that a civilization that can make something as advanced as starships, replicators and phasers, they can make a practical, "modern" (by their standards) weapon that they can issue to Federation officers and men.

Also, as Wong puts its on his site, the Federation had practical weapons back in the TOS-era. They didn't need projectile weapons because phasers were sufficient, even overpowered!


Overall, the only thing stopping the Federation into making a practical projectile weapon is themselves. Hell, any replicator-equipped starship could potentially arm its crew if they wanted to, even train them on the holodeck.

Problem isn't potential. Problem is the one already concluded by Wong and let me quote him:
This decline can probably be attributed to complacency, which is something that Q identified and in his own clumsy way, tried to educate Captain Picard about in "Q Who". The Federation military of Kirk's era (thanks in no small part to the legendary Captain Kirk himself) achieved such success against the Klingons and the Romulans that future generations seemed to feel that their supremacy was secure, and it was no longer necessary to maintain combat readiness. This inexcusably complacent attitude was most glaringly demonstrated in "Peak Performance", when both Picard and Riker vehemently insisted that tactical skills are such a minor part of a Starfleet's officer's job that they shouldn't even practice them any more, even with simulated wargames!
Starfleet is pacifist to the point that it actually hurts them. They are too pacifist to train their officers for any potential warfare, which shows in their selection of weapons.

The weapons themselves are the minor issue, its the attitude you have to change. Change the attitude and good weapons appear quickly, hell, a single competent engineer could potentially make a weapon that would make any firearm designer that lived (or lives) cry with envy. It won't be worth shit if the weapon is rejected on the grounds that they are "too warlike" and "too aggressive" or "they would only be abused" any other pacifist reasoning. Yes, that line of reasoning is stupid and its there wherein the problem lies.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

PS: Replace all "Federation" with "Starfleet".

That, and if its damage to equipment and "overpenetration" is what you are worried about, the American-180 might be a good solution. The round gives low recoil and little chance of ricochet, thus suitable round. The A180 has a very high rate of fire, delivering over 15 bullets a second. All the weaknesses of the .22LR it uses is compensated by simply using more of it, thus overwhelming almost any defence and causing as much damage as possibly with short amount of time.

It is short, thus good for confined quarters like a starship. It has low recoil and report, thus there would be no need for ear and eye protection. It's low penetration will unlikely cause catastrophe or leaks by firing at walls or equipment. Its small recoil allows easier training as it takes less practise to compensate. It's large, even enormous magazine capacity is also something to be desired. Its ergonomic grip and front handguard also helps firing in full auto.
Anything else will have to be modified by Starfleet, although I imagine this will likely be minor or cosmetic.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Stark »

Oh god can we not turn this into a 'lol nerds talk about gun trivia' thread.

Seriously. The feds would/should just develop a weapon with the appropriate characteristics to be effective here as Mike describes, and we don't need to be linked to a bunch of irrelevant modern weapons. You all know about guns, good good. *pats on head*
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Steel »

Now we've gone round the gun-dick waving, to approach the issue from another angle: Precisely because a force field does not function as a metal plate it means that a projectile can be decelerated from further away. Anything fired from a rifle with a barrel length of say 1m and stopped (uniformly) by the shield generator over a distance of 1m will exert a lower peak force on the generator than on the shoulder of the person firing the weapon. As long as you have sufficient range you can stop or just deflect a projectile with much lower peak force than that the attacker had to endure to fire it.

Another method to reduce the stress the generator exerts on the body supporting it would be to have it repel something nearby in the opposite direction to the force the generator is exerting on the incoming projectile.

Although I suppose if you have things that can do that you'll probably be using them to fire your projectiles too so its then an arms race for who can out muscle who and push a brick through and feed it to the other guy...
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

I have to wonder: is artificial gravity underutilised?

I mean, they make great defence. You know where your enemy is? Just triple the gravity and he will surrender, or at least be immobilised. The only place I've seen this done is Andromeda.

Hell, I am sure someone can figure out a more creative usage for it than that.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Littlefoot »

I Can! :twisted: Reverse the gravety (if that can be done) or turn it off. Then turn it on again only at x3 or as high as you can get it. Rinse and repeat. Has anyone thought about overpressurizing the internal atmosphere and then rapidly reducing it?
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by TempestSong »

Zixinus wrote:I have to wonder: is artificial gravity underutilised?

I mean, they make great defence. You know where your enemy is? Just triple the gravity and he will surrender, or at least be immobilised. The only place I've seen this done is Andromeda.

Hell, I am sure someone can figure out a more creative usage for it than that.
Ship-surrounding anti-gravity shields. :P Using that for one of my current stories.

Also has the side-effect of being able to accelerate projectiles, if one configured it properly.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Stark »

Oh please tell us more about your fanfiction!

Zixinus, the AG system could well be limited to 'relatively normal' settings (although this doesn't work in magical 'inertial damper' world of ST where they can evenly apply force to all of your atoms at the same time which certainly seems weaponisable). It's not like in ST that grav-manipulation would be any more effective than nerve gas canisters in the walls, since nobody wears environment suits.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Zixinus »

Zixinus, the AG system could well be limited to 'relatively normal' settings (although this doesn't work in magical 'inertial damper' world of ST where they can evenly apply force to all of your atoms at the same time which certainly seems weaponisable). It's not like in ST that grav-manipulation would be any more effective than nerve gas canisters in the walls, since nobody wears environment suits.
Yes, I can see how, but the thing is that its easier to screw around with the gravity system because its already there. With NG cannisters you would have to install and occasionally maintenance, but the gravity system is already there and already maintained. If used right, this can give a serious tactical advantage.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Sky Captain »

What about turning of inertial compensators in a ship`s part where boarders are detected and pulling few hundred G for several seconds or program inertial compensation system to compensate for nonexistent acceleration. End result - no more boarders and messy cleanup for ship`s janitor As far as I understand in most sci-fi inertial compensation is somehow linked together with artificial gravity so this should be possible.

That would mean in order to board the ship you would have to shoot it up so much that none of it`s environmental systems are functional.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Junghalli »

In the Enterprise episode In A Mirror Darkly Mirror-universe Archer disabled a Gorn by turning up the gravity on the part of the floor it was standing on high enough that it couldn't stand up. So it's definitely possible in-universe, but for some reason nobody ever does it. Yeah, it's a perfect example of underutilized technology.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Paradox »

Darth Wong wrote: At a range per relay station of 40,000km, a trip of (for example) 10 light years would require roughly 2.4 billion relay stations. Maybe they should stick with warp drive.
I don't think anyone mentioned this in the thread yet, but if I were a Federation Starfleet Officer, theres be no way in hell I'd go through a transporter that had to send my bits through 2.4 billion relay stations.

With as many episodes they show some sort of horrible transporter accident, interdimensional shift, or other anomaly, there would be a really good chance (at least 50/50) that you would end up transported to another galaxy, or arrive on the transport pad with your body turned inside out.

Hope starfleet has really good error-correction protocols for the transport buffer.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by TempestSong »

Stark wrote:Oh please tell us more about your fanfiction!
I don't write fanfiction, sorry to disappoint.
Paradox wrote:Hope starfleet has really good error-correction protocols for the transport buffer.
If the communications between the relay stations resemble anything like the Internet today, then that would be virtually impossible. Imagine sharing a relay station with billions upon billions of other commuters; soooo much space for error. :|
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Paradox »

Paradox wrote:Hope starfleet has really good error-correction protocols for the transport buffer.
If the communications between the relay stations resemble anything like the Internet today, then that would be virtually impossible. Imagine sharing a relay station with billions upon billions of other commuters; soooo much space for error. :|[/quote]

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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Swindle1984 »

loomer wrote:In the modern world, actually. From what I've been able to gather from talking to firearms enthusiasts, soldiers, and through my own research, the 5.56x45 has greater issues with overpenetration as it has similar energy placed into a smaller projectile. Obviously differing specific rounds and loads will make a difference too. You will also note I stated "four internal walls" to "half a dozen", and did not conclude the 7.62x51mm has no issues with overpenetration.

Are we no longer allowed to give modern day weaponry as examples of what would be better than the crap the Federation is using? Should I delve into purely theoretical wank to derive a weapons system, when there are functional ones extant today that are far superior to basically anything ever shown in ST canon? For all we know they never advanced in any meaningful way beyond modern weaponry when it comes to firearms, as we only have the example of one sniper rifle!

I maintain I used them to ease comparison, though upon rereading my post did not convey this point adequately.
As someone with actual experience with firearms, 5.56mm is no more likely to over-penetrate than 7.62x51mm. It is, however, more likely to tumble once it hits something due to the lighter projectile. This means the bullet could deviate in its path by a couple inches and be flying sideways as it plows through thin walls. In human tissue, it just means the hole is a bit messier, especially if the round fragmented on its way through.

A 5.56mm M-4A1 would likely be quite effective against Borg in close-quarters combat. A 9mm, .45ACP, 10mm, or 7.62x25mm pistol or especially SMG would likely be pretty effective as well, without the recoil or over-penetration issues of an actual rifle round. The FN FAL, while one of the best firearm designs in the world, is just too heavy and too long to use in starship corridors.

Suppressors would be a requirement for use of firearms aboard a Federation space station or starship. Movie actors have permanently damaged their hearing firing blanks in enclosed spaces (like the elevator scene in Terminator 2), and blanks aren't nearly as loud as live rounds. And firearms with short barrels, a requirement for close-quarters combat, means more flash, more recoil, and more noise since all of the gun powder isn't burned within the confines of the firearm (pistols/SMG's use faster-burning powder because of the much shorter barrels, so pistol calibers aren't as bad about this as rifle calibers like 5.56mm).

It would be absolutely typical of the Federation for someone in the Federation to finally have enough smarts to replicate a gun and some ammunition to fight the Borg, only to spend the rest of the day wandering around with blood coming out of their ears.

Actually, wasn't there a DS9 novel where aliens who were immune to phasers attacked? Most of the crew resorted to making phaser grenades (they couldn't produce enough because the replicators wouldn't give them charged batteries to make more with), but Kira asked the computer for the most powerful firearm it knew and got a Klingon "Glass Breaker" (WTF kind of name is that?) rifle (curious she got one that was easily man-portable rather than, say, a 20mm AT rifle or something like that.) and ran around the station blowing away aliens. I believe she spent a good portion of the battle stone deaf because of the gunfire.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Swindle1984 »

Zixinus wrote:PS: Replace all "Federation" with "Starfleet".

That, and if its damage to equipment and "overpenetration" is what you are worried about, the American-180 might be a good solution. The round gives low recoil and little chance of ricochet, thus suitable round. The A180 has a very high rate of fire, delivering over 15 bullets a second. All the weaknesses of the .22LR it uses is compensated by simply using more of it, thus overwhelming almost any defence and causing as much damage as possibly with short amount of time.

It is short, thus good for confined quarters like a starship. It has low recoil and report, thus there would be no need for ear and eye protection. It's low penetration will unlikely cause catastrophe or leaks by firing at walls or equipment. Its small recoil allows easier training as it takes less practise to compensate. It's large, even enormous magazine capacity is also something to be desired. Its ergonomic grip and front handguard also helps firing in full auto.
Anything else will have to be modified by Starfleet, although I imagine this will likely be minor or cosmetic.
In close quarters and especially firing full-auto, you still need hearing protection, even with .22lr. And the caliber isn't likely to be too useful against Borg drones with all that rubber and cybernetic shit they wear that could deflect or slow down the bullets. You need at least 12" of penetration in ballistics gelatin for a handgun round to be considered suitable for self-defense (FBI standards); .22lr doesn't get that on a regular basis even out of a rifle. I'd recommend 9mm as a minimum anti-Borg weapon.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Batman »

If we're assuming the Feds are actually smart for a change, have them use auto/semiauto shotguns like the SPAS-12/15, Pancor Jackhammer or Striker with solid shot (or even better if we assume they're making use of their technology for a change, shaped charges, frag HE or phaserization bullets, assuming they can make them).
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Darth Wong »

You're wasting time by talking about penetration through conventional targets here; if we are talking about a hypothetical forcefield which proactively identifies incoming projectiles and applies braking force to them before they hit the target, then ballistic comparisons change and you need sheer momentum to overcome the defenses. Mind you, that's something we haven't yet covered: the failure to recognize the additional systems required for this system to work as advertised.

The defensive forcefield only works if it can lengthen out the time over which momentum is transferred. If it actually acts like a plate, the very fast momentum transfer means that the shield generator will cause internal injuries when hit by gunfire. If, on the other hand, it exerts constant force against all physical objects near the drone, then the drone won't even be able to touch anything or anyone. It would be hopelessly impractical. Such a forcefield would therefore need to be tied into a sensor and threat assessment system so that it can determine which objects are threats and which ones aren't, and react quickly enough to project the forcefield away from the drone in order to intercept incoming projectiles.

It's really not as easy as the Borg fans are making it sound.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Batman »

I obviously missed something. I WAS working on the standard assumption that the Borg CAN'T or WON'T adapt to KE/momentum weapons and thus was talking about what weapons a Starfleet that had the smarts to make use of that might employ.
I sort of ignored the forcefield subdebate because, well, the Borg NEVER EVER do that.
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Re: Sci-fi's most ineffectively used technologies...

Post by Darth Wong »

Batman wrote:I obviously missed something. I WAS working on the standard assumption that the Borg CAN'T or WON'T adapt to KE/momentum weapons and thus was talking about what weapons a Starfleet that had the smarts to make use of that might employ.
I sort of ignored the forcefield subdebate because, well, the Borg NEVER EVER do that.
Earlier on, the debate was about the question of whether the Borg could defend against projectile weapons. Mwhatever Commando brought up the fact that most modern small-arms weapons have very low momentum so they should not be hard to stop with an active forcefield system, to which I responded that it's doubtful the Federation would design the small-calibre weapons we use today for use against the Borg. Somehow, the gun fans got ahold of that and turned it into a pointless discussion of which toy they would order from the catalog with no regard for the peculiar nature of the target.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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