Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Uncluttered]

Hopefully this isn't dogpiling but, the destruction of a star system, or even several of them isn't going to really hurt the Galactic Empire.

You don't type like a dog. Dogs type like this "Zgbsbgkasbgawkbsfa4rn rgfkfskjfgkjsevf"

The loss of one star system isn't going to destroy the Galactic Empire. I view it as the equivalent of Al Qaeda nuking a shopping mall. The metaphor breaks down when Al Qaeda is able to sequentially do this over and over again with impunity.
You nuke one shopping mall, and people are going to divest themselves of their stock in Hollister, you nuke two, and they divest themselves of stock in real estate. You nuke three shopping malls, and it's time to talk.

[Uncluttered]

I know it's never going to happen, and in the past debates prove this. But any numbers, beyond the usual wanking to AI? No?

I'm using this forum to write a story from the perspective of near-baseline human. I've been trying to stay away from using AI. Otherwise the story would read like this:
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000100 01110101 01100100 01100101:
01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100100 01100001 01110111 01100111 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100001 !
01000100 01100001 01110111 01100111:
01001010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101000 01101001 01101100 01101001 01101110 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01110111 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01010111 01001101 01000100 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110000 01100101 01101111 01110000 01101100 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100110 01101100 01111001 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100011 01101000 01100101 01100101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01110111 01100101 01100100 01100111 01100101 01110011 00101110.
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000100 01110101 01100100 01100101:
01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101011 01101110 01101111 01110111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01111001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 0011111?


So far I haven't used the list of known "Metric" weapons from the the OA Encyclopedia Galactica. Listed here: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bc0c6146c56

If I did, I think this would be over for the Empire very quick. Even if we stick to the first scenario, where OA doesn't get FTL, they still have quite the collection of WMD's. If we move onto the second scenario, where they procure GE hyperdrive, things get very very bad for the Empire.

[Serafina]

Hopefully this isn't dogpiling but, the destruction of a star system, or even several of them isn't going to really hurt the Galactic Empire.

You don't type like a dog. Dogs type like this "Zgbsbgkasbgawkbsfa4rn rgfkfskjfgkjsevf"

The loss of one star system isn't going to destroy the Galactic Empire. I view it as the equivalent of Al Qaeda nuking a shopping mall. The metaphor breaks down when Al Qaeda is able to sequentially do this over and over again with impunity.
You nuke one shopping mall, and people are going to divest themselves of their stock in Hollister, you nuke two, and they divest themselves of stock in real estate. You nuke three shopping malls, and it's time to talk.

With impunity?
God, you ARE a moron.

The GE can strike anywhere within the OA-galaxy (and it's own) within days. It has planet-obliterating weapons on his man battle ship. They have sun- and planet destroying weapons out of the wazoo.

You are simply a moron if you don't recognize that.

[Ghost Rider]

I know it's never going to happen, and in the past debates prove this. But any numbers, beyond the usual wanking to AI? No?

I'm using this forum to write a story from the perspective of near-baseline human. I've been trying to stay away from using AI. Otherwise the story would read like this:
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000100 01110101 01100100 01100101:
01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100100 01100001 01110111 01100111 00100000 01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100001 !
01000100 01100001 01110111 01100111:
01001010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101000 01101001 01101100 01101001 01101110 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01110111 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01010111 01001101 01000100 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110000 01100101 01101111 01110000 01101100 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100110 01101100 01111001 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100011 01101000 01100101 01100101 01110011 01100101 00100000 01110111 01100101 01100100 01100111 01100101 01110011 00101110.
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01000100 01110101 01100100 01100101:
01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101011 01101110 01101111 01110111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01111001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 0011111?


So far I haven't used the list of known "Metric" weapons from the the OA Encyclopedia Galactica. Listed here: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bc0c6146c56

If I did, I think this would be over for the Empire very quick. Even if we stick to the first scenario, where OA doesn't get FTL, they still have quite the collection of WMD's. If we move onto the second scenario, where they procure GE hyperdrive, things get very very bad for the Empire.

So spam, and nothing.

This is still what gets me. No FTL. None. What are they going to do when the Empire fires FTL weapons with impunity? Just go "So we lost hundreds of our colonized systems...pfft, when we unleash the Black Hole Death beam, they'll be sorry in 400 years!".

As for the reverse engineering...it still relies upon "Their super AI will break down the puny engineering feat, regardless of the fact they've not mastered on their own.". This is a logical stance because of what? Hell, this is basically is the same tact that every fucking idiot uses for reverse engineering without understanding how fucking hard it is to do just that.

Is this what you are seriously fucking debating?

[Uncluttered]

[quote="Norade"]

Fuck off you uniformed little twat. Go pollute some other forum with your no limits OA wank.

[quote]

The Established limits to OA ai. Too large to post here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... ae575daf11

You guys put the Jerk in Circlejerk.

[Ghost Rider]

Fuck off you uniformed little twat. Go pollute some other forum with your no limits OA wank.

The Established limits to OA ai. Too large to post here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... ae575daf11

You guys put the Jerk in Circlejerk.

And? It just is an example of one particular resource they have and in fact highlights the problem. Yes, they have massive AI. All that means is when confronted with a force that can simple point and click their destruction, they'll know how bad they get curbstomped.

This is akin to going "Darth Vader's personal SSD versus Skynet Earth...who wins!" and someone implying because Skynet's massive intelligence, all it has to do is get tech, ?????, profit and ignoring the fact it has nothing it can do against the other side.

[Serafina]

Fuck off you uniformed little twat. Go pollute some other forum with your no limits OA wank.

The Established limits to OA ai. Too large to post here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... ae575daf11

You guys put the Jerk in Circlejerk.

Yes, they are clearly capable of everything!

Others are impossible simply because they are logical contradictions. Many more are entirely possible in principle, but require physical or mental resources beyond those the transapient can reasonably muster, and are uneconomical.

There you have it. They simply do not have the resources of knowledge for Hyperdrive.

[Uncluttered]

So spam, and nothing.

This is still what gets me. No FTL. None. What are they going to do when the Empire fires FTL weapons with impunity?

Straw man: OA doesn't have FTL, because it doesn't exist in the their universe. It's impossible. If a doorway was opened and FTL suddenly worked, it's because the doorway changed things.

You start with a false assumption that the physics in a VS scenarios are static, and therefore the side without magic must be the stupid one.
In fact, most of your VS arguments come down to this.

You are arguning
"They so stupic cuz they don't have magic buck rogers zap guns"

"You've" been doing this for years. Always the same.

If you were a comic book fan, you'd argue that the GE will be unable to fight against Superman. That must mean the GE is too stupid to lift large rocks.

I'm sorry to tell you, but George Lucas is not going to be your friend.

[Uncluttered]

They simply do not have the resources of knowledge for Hyperdrive.

Sorry Sarah Palin, but that's called quote mining. Taking something out of context.
Anyhow It simply states the impossible is not economical.

I'm pretty sure that it's the same in any universe that might be unlucky enought to have you in it.

[Ghost Rider]

So spam, and nothing.

This is still what gets me. No FTL. None. What are they going to do when the Empire fires FTL weapons with impunity?

Straw man: OA doesn't have FTL, because it doesn't exist in the their universe. It's impossible. If a doorway was opened and FTL suddenly worked, it's because the doorway changed things.

Demonstrate why. Really, you enjoy haven't shown anyone why except your say so. So really, understand logical leaps before spewing them like the retard you want to be.

You start with a false assumption that the physics in a VS scenarios are static, and therefore the side without magic must be the stupid one.

No, you assume that because suddenly the technology is accessible, that one side is going to allow the other to:

1. Research said technology.
2. Build said infrastructure
3. Get said resources
4. Contruct said item to utilize said new technology.
5. Distribute said item over their space

No, with you idiots it's apparently

1. Find ship
2. Reverse engineer for whatever reason
3. ????
4. WIN!

In fact, most of your VS arguments come down to this.

You are arguning
"They so stupic cuz they don't have magic buck rogers zap guns"

"You've" been doing this for years. Always the same.

If you were a comic book fan, you'd argue that the GE will be unable to fight against Superman. That must mean the GE is too stupid to lift large rocks.

I'm sorry to tell you, but George Lucas is not going to be your friend.

And it would help if you weren't being an obstinate idiot who think because he likes the universe to run on the rules of coolness that others are fucking morons for disagreeing with his pet loves. But here we are and you're still an idiot.

[Serafina]

Essentially, it boils down to two options:

A: The laws of the universe are constant, as logic and empiric observations dictate and show. One side has simply not discovered certain aspects of it (and the other possibly as well). That is easily explicable, especially since these technologies are often highly specialized.

B: The laws of the universe can spontaneously change. This is never observed anywhere, and such a drastic change would most likely cause havoc of unprecedented severity across the entire universe.
This is also not required, since most crossovers can easily be explained by crossed timelines or just other galaxies (especially in the case of SW), both of which often do not require unobserved phenomena.

So, and rational person would select option A, since it does not require unobserved phenomena and is consistent with the observed characteristics of the universe.
You, however, choose option B - most likely you are an utter moron.

[Uncluttered]

Demonstrate why. Really, you enjoy haven't shown anyone why except your say so. So really, understand logical leaps before spewing them like the retard you want to be.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. FTL does not exist it real life. (In case you didn't know, real life is that thing you encounter when you log off of WoW and leave your basement.)
The burden of proof is on the fanboy who is saying that FTL exists. I say it doesn't and only could if the laws of physics changed.
This isn't up to you or me, the OP must clarify. He must also clarify if the FTL violates causality, because not doing that is even more magic than the FTL itself.

No, you assume that because suddenly the technology is accessible, that one side is going to allow the other to:

1. Research said technology.
2. Build said infrastructure
3. Get said resources
4. Contruct said item to utilize said new technology.
5. Distribute said item over their space

No, with you idiots it's apparently

1. Find ship
2. Reverse engineer for whatever reason
3. ????
4. WIN!

Wow. Three in one. A complete tangent, a straw man argument, and a tired joke from South Park.

You are on your game today!

Lets go over the OP together, and see if there is anything that says "Find ship and win" shall we?

Hi.First time posting in this subforum.Out of curiosity how would the Galactic Empire manage a threat from the civilisations of Orions Arm? Assuming they have the same capacity for interstellar travel and same industrial base,only adding in the addition of wormholes for the Orions Arm societies, how does this fight fare?

In the 2nd scenario, the Galactic Empire at its height attempts an invasion of the Terragen Sphere, with the FTL technology of the SWverse researched and assimilated in the early part of the conflict by the OAverse,giving the SWverse an initial transport advantage. Any difference in the outcome?

Nope. sorry. Didn't see it. What I read was "reseached and assimilated" This might not have translated well into Aurebesh, so I'm going to forgive you the mistake.

Anyhow there are a hell of a lot more steps than either one of those when you reverse engineer. At least in scifi, you don't have to perform patent searches, or perform market analysis.

And it would help if you weren't being an obstinate idiot who think because he likes the universe to run on the rules of coolness that others are fucking morons for disagreeing with his pet loves. But here we are and you're still an idiot.

You must think I'm a god, but no ,I'm an ordinary mortal, just a little more entrenched in reality than you.* *(see basement reference above)
You see, I didn't use my god powers to create the universe. It really does work the way I describe it. Black holes and gamma ray bursts exist, and things hitting you at the speed of light hurt a lot.

As for rule-of-cool. You need to log off of TVtropes once in a while because last I checked, giant lasers that can blast planets, magic shields, hypermatter, and traveling out a light cone are well into the rule of cool.

[Ghost Rider]

Demonstrate why. Really, you enjoy haven't shown anyone why except your say so. So really, understand logical leaps before spewing them like the retard you want to be.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. FTL does not exist it real life. (In case you didn't know, real life is that thing you encounter when you log off of WoW and leave your basement.)
The burden of proof is on the fanboy who is saying that FTL exists. I say it doesn't and only could if the laws of physics changed.
This isn't up to you or me, the OP must clarify. He must also clarify if the FTL violates causality, because not doing that is even more magic than the FTL itself.

This particular bit of logic has amused since the old days. What this is to circumvent the thought of analysis is just to simply excise a part that they do not want, thus making it impossible to have combat or any confrontation. Note he hasn't demonstrated why, he just shifted the goalposts because he has no answer and then proposes that FTL is impossible. Well yes, in the real world it is. Too bad Star Wars and Orion's Arm are not the real world.

So add in a dash of a lifeless loser and you get this type of coward. When he hits 13 he'll get the talk of why his voice cracks .

No, you assume that because suddenly the technology is accessible, that one side is going to allow the other to:

1. Research said technology.
2. Build said infrastructure
3. Get said resources
4. Contruct said item to utilize said new technology.
5. Distribute said item over their space

No, with you idiots it's apparently

1. Find ship
2. Reverse engineer for whatever reason
3. ????
4. WIN!

Wow. Three in one. A complete tangent, a straw man argument, and a tired joke from South Park.

You are on your game today!

Lets go over the OP together, and see if there is anything that says "Find ship and win" shall we?

Again taking the particular route of shifting goalposts and add accusations of such. Slicing out his useless bit at the end because it's just him shifting said goalposts again.

And it would help if you weren't being an obstinate idiot who think because he likes the universe to run on the rules of coolness that others are fucking morons for disagreeing with his pet loves. But here we are and you're still an idiot.

You must think I'm a god, but no ,I'm an ordinary mortal, just a little more entrenched in reality than you.* *(see basement reference above)
You see, I didn't use my god powers to create the universe. It really does work the way I describe it. Black holes and gamma ray bursts exist, and things hitting you at the speed of light hurt a lot.

As for rule-of-cool. You need to log off of TVtropes once in a while because last I checked, giant lasers that can blast planets, magic shields, hypermatter, and traveling out a light cone are well into the rule of cool.

Add at the end, another implication that he's not doing anything wrong, because...well he doesn't want to do what the board asks him. So I'll ask because the board has rules toward evidence. Put up something that demonstrates your evidence of the Orion's Arm superiority into defeating the Empire in some way that isn't conjecture on your part.

[Uncluttered]

This particular bit of logic has amused since the old days. What this is to circumvent the thought of analysis is just to simply excise a part that they do not want, thus making it impossible to have combat or any confrontation. Note he hasn't demonstrated why, he just shifted the goalposts because he has no answer and then proposes that FTL is impossible. Well yes, in the real world it is. Too bad Star Wars and Orion's Arm are not the real world.

FTL is impossible in the real world. Part of the core goals of OA is to not use FTL for this reason.
A short FAQ: http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa- ... %20in%20OA

By writers fiat there can be no FTL in OA unless real world physics have changed.
You cannot have a fair vs scenario without explaining this discrepancy in some way.
Writers fiat won't change unless you can shit out a hyperdrive. (See you in Stockholm.)
I'm not circumventing analysis, I'm pointing out the way you do it is wrong.

So add in a dash of a lifeless loser and you get this type of coward. When he hits 13 he'll get the talk of why his voice cracks .

I notice that you are usually the first one in a debate to talk like an ass. You must be a real popular guy.
What have I done that's cowardly you stupid shit? If anything, I'd say your little tribe of echoing sockpuppets who parrot your senile rants are cowards. I'd wager they don't like you either. What's cowardly is spending the last decade, 24 hours a day, 7 days of week of your life on SD.Net pretending to be a c-grade comic book character.

Again taking the particular route of shifting goalposts and add accusations of such. Slicing out his useless bit at the end because it's just him shifting said goalposts again.

The goals are up to the OP. They were written pretty clear.

The goals are NOT to pretend that SW is real for an excuse for wearing a soiled bathrobe in public.

Add at the end, another implication that he's not doing anything wrong, because...well he doesn't want to do what the board asks him. So I'll ask because the board has rules toward evidence. Put up something that demonstrates your evidence of the Orion's Arm superiority into defeating the Empire in some way that isn't conjecture on your part.

Sorry pal, I'm not falling for the bait. I know why suddenly you're talking board rules and I've been doing what the board is asking all along. I'm not going to backpedal to appease you. You always say the same thing in every debate. You're a broken record. I could replace you with a spam bot.

You're having a senior moment, didn't read the op, and think you're debating SW vs ST.
ST is a fucking-physics-free-for-all where anything goes if you talk technobabble.
What's different here, is that OA canon states they are constrained by real life physics. (And before you-know-who chimes in to puppet you. I mean physics, not engineering.)

YOU are making the outlandish claim. YOU must bear the burden of proof that FTL will work using real life physics. Otherwise admit the physics must have been changed to make the scenario workable, and bow the fuck out.

For proof: I recommend that you show up with an ISD, though I'll accept an x-wing, or a fucking time machine. (NOTE: Time machine must be able to travel to a time before its own activation.)

[Bakustra]

This particular bit of logic has amused since the old days. What this is to circumvent the thought of analysis is just to simply excise a part that they do not want, thus making it impossible to have combat or any confrontation. Note he hasn't demonstrated why, he just shifted the goalposts because he has no answer and then proposes that FTL is impossible. Well yes, in the real world it is. Too bad Star Wars and Orion's Arm are not the real world.

FTL is impossible in the real world. Part of the core goals of OA is to not use FTL for this reason.
A short FAQ: http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oa- ... %20in%20OA

By writers fiat there can be no FTL in OA unless real world physics have changed.
You cannot have a fair vs scenario without explaining this discrepancy in some way.
Writers fiat won't change unless you can shit out a hyperdrive. (See you in Stockholm.)
I'm not circumventing analysis, I'm pointing out the way you do it is wrong.

Why should we take writer's fiat into account, precisely? Why must we explain the exact workings of a fictional scientific theory to take it as working in-universe? You are also favoring Orion's Arm; after all, I could assume that the lack of superintelligent AIs in-universe is also writer's fiat from George Lucas and so declare that you must provide a theory by which OA's AIs work or else they'll fail to work within the versus. Of course, I am not a hyperventilating fanboy, so I will not be doing so.

So add in a dash of a lifeless loser and you get this type of coward. When he hits 13 he'll get the talk of why his voice cracks .

I notice that you are usually the first one in a debate to talk like an ass. You must be a real popular guy.
What have I done that's cowardly you stupid shit? If anything, I'd say your little tribe of echoing sockpuppets who parrot your senile rants are cowards. I'd wager they don't like you either. What's cowardly is spending the last decage, 24 hours a day, 7 days of week of your life on SD.Net pretending to be a c-grade comic book character.

Your rant is simply adorable. Adorable, and funny. It would even be funnier if you had worse spelling, but I'm sure that you will degrade further.

Again taking the particular route of shifting goalposts and add accusations of such. Slicing out his useless bit at the end because it's just him shifting said goalposts again.

The goals are up to the OP. They were written pretty clear.

The goals are NOT to pretend that SW is real for an excuse for wearing a soiled bathrobe in public.

So you object to abrasiveness... and then become abrasive yourself. You must be real popular, having spent the last "decage" 24/7 pretending to be a state of organization.

Add at the end, another implication that he's not doing anything wrong, because...well he doesn't want to do what the board asks him. So I'll ask because the board has rules toward evidence. Put up something that demonstrates your evidence of the Orion's Arm superiority into defeating the Empire in some way that isn't conjecture on your part.

Sorry pal, I'm not falling for the bait. I know why suddenly you're talking board rules and I've been doing what the board is asking all along. I'm not going to backpedal to appease you. You always say the same thing in every debate. You're a broken record. I could replace you with a spam bot.

You're having a senior moment, didn't read the op, and think you're debating SW vs ST.
ST is a fucking-physics-free-for-all where anything goes if you talk technobabble.
What's different here, is that OA canon states they are constrained by real life physics. (And before you-know-who chimes in to puppet you. I mean physics, not engineering.)

YOU are making the outlandish claim. YOU must bear the burden of proof that FTL will work using real life physics. Otherwise admit the physics must have been changed to make the scenario workable, and bow the fuck out.

For proof: I recommend that you show up with an ISD, though I'll accept an x-wing, or a fucking time machine. (NOTE: Time machine must be able to travel to a time before its own activation.)

Well, you finished by taking a running leap into the deep end, if I may mix metaphors (that is a rhetorical statement. I have no need for your approval). In any case, I note several problems here. Firstly, you claim that Orion's Arm is bound by "real-life physics". I understand that there are macroscopic wormholes present within the universe of Orion's Arm. I would like you to prove the existence of such wormholes. Secondly, apparently civilizations within Orion's Arm refrigerate their high-power computers through "neutrino cooling". I would like a neutrino refrigerator for myself (no FedEx), along with an explanation of how they spontaneously generate neutrinos without nuclear reactions that themselves produce heat in the form of gamma rays.

Do you see the problem yet? Orion's Arm falls into the realm of "hard" sci-fi wherein fanboys and fangirls gush about the "super-realistic" science and technology that is dependent on a variety of mathematical constructs that may or may not pan out, or else on completely made-up technology. To be blunt, you're being a hypocrite and a loser "hard sci-fi" fanboy, two of the things I despise. I would suggest correcting at least one, if not both.

You can still discuss interactions between hard sci-fi and softer sci-fi (see the Gundam thread right now, if you aren't one of those OH THE ANIMES people or a fuckin' weeaboo) without your spewage. You simply assume that both sides' technology and science works. Granted, that is a concept beyond the ability of the hard sci-fi fanboy to understand, but maybe I'm wrong about you and you can grasp it.

[Junghalli]

You simply assume that both sides' technology and science works.

To be fair, the original point of contention seems to be the way this happens. Is it because the two universes always had the same laws of physics and simply developed their technology in different ways, or because things that are possible in one genuinely are impossible in the other and how their physics have been made the same by act of wizard? Most of the time this isn't really worth worrying about, but since a large part of the advantage of superintelligences might be their ability to do science better and more quickly than humans and hence invent technology better and more quickly than humans it becomes a potential issue in a scenario where you have a faction run by massively superintelligent entities vs one that seems to be run mostly by creatures of more-or-less human baseline intelligence.

Edit: personally my favored solution is the laws of physics have changed, but the change won't be obvious to the OA side without intensive physical experiments that they already performed millennia ago and came up with different results (because hyperdrive used to be a load of magic in their universe just like it almost certainly is in real life) so they probably wouldn't immediately realize anything had happened, and they'd need a lot of physical experimentation before they could understand hyperdrive without simply ripping the knowledge off SW people. But that's just me.

[Bakustra]

You simply assume that both sides' technology and science works.

To be fair, the original point of contention seems to be the way this happens. Is it because the two universes always had the same laws of physics and simply developed their technology in different ways, or because things that are possible in one genuinely are impossible in the other and how their physics have been made the same by act of wizard? Most of the time this isn't really worth worrying about, but since a large part of the advantage of superintelligences might be their ability to do science better and more quickly than humans and hence invent technology better and more quickly than humans it becomes a potential issue in a scenario where you have a faction run by massively superintelligent entities vs one that seems to be run mostly by creatures of more-or-less human baseline intelligence.

Yes, but Uncluttered is arguing that we have to produce a working hyperdrive (or time machine, because he decided to ignore my posts entirely, apparently) before he will consider SW technology period.

The original point, though, is worth considering. I'd say that it depends on the two groups involved and the technology/science. For example, introducing Doc Brown's Delorean Time Machine to Orion's Arm definitely entails some meddling wizards in the background, is possibly a wizard product for Star Wars, but is almost certainly just a differing development of technology for Star Trek.

In this case, I would prefer to say "act of wizard" given the age of both civilizations, but it really is an academic question; the presence of what was previously considered impossible will inspire new investigations either way, which is what is important.

[Uncluttered]

So you object to abrasiveness... and then become abrasive yourself. You must be real popular, having spent the last "decage" 24/7 pretending to be a state of organization.

This would be funny if my post actually said that. You'd be witty if you said anything new or relevant.

I think trolling the internet for spelling errors went out of style sometime in 1996.

[Bakustra]

So you object to abrasiveness... and then become abrasive yourself. You must be real popular, having spent the last "decage" 24/7 pretending to be a state of organization.

This would be funny if my post actually said that. You'd be witty if you said anything new or relevant.

I think trolling the internet for spelling errors went out of style sometime in 1996.

I do not have to trawl the internet for spelling errors; they practically fall right into my lap. You miss my point, unsurprisingly, and go for a single statement, like a blueberry-picker (cherry-pick, as a term, is overused) spotting a rotund berry. In any case, you piss and whine and mewl about Ghost Rider being abrasive. You then turn abrasive in your next section. I respond by pointing this out and offering a condensed form of your (rage-riddled, incoherent) statement. You respond by focusing only on this, rather than anything else I said.

Oh, dear. I think that I may have annoyed you slightly.

[Ghost Rider]

So you object to abrasiveness... and then become abrasive yourself. You must be real popular, having spent the last "decage" 24/7 pretending to be a state of organization.

This would be funny if my post actually said that. You'd be witty if you said anything new or relevant.

I think trolling the internet for spelling errors went out of style sometime in 1996.

I understand that these concepts are new to you but we call what Bakustra did is infer. You know by which he read your garble and came to a conclusion from your words?

Now are you going to actually do something in regards to putting up some evidence? Or do we have another person trolling for responses on a favored universe of his in this particular versus?

[Uncluttered]

Now are you going to actually do something in regards to putting up some evidence? Or do we have another person trolling for responses on a favored universe of his in this particular versus?

You want me to put up evidence that hyperdrives are not real?

You are going to be soooooo pissed when your mommy tells you the truth about Santa Claus. Spoiler

There is no Santa Clause. Also No Easter bunny. George Lucas will never be your friend.

[Ghost Rider]

Now are you going to actually do something in regards to putting up some evidence? Or do we have another person trolling for responses on a favored universe of his in this particular versus?

You want me to put up evidence that hyperdrives are not real?

You are going to be soooooo pissed when your mommy tells you the truth about Santa Claus. Spoiler

There is no Santa Clause. Also No Easter bunny. George Lucas will never be your friend.

We know you're an obstifucating dipshit but you still have not answered Bakustra or anyone's questions. Provide proof that OA can do what you and other have said, provide some proof that OA's materials are within the realm of science as we know it and not their massive conjecture, and demonstrate that suddenly hyperdrives fail to work because OA runs...on writer's fiat of physics?

Anything, or will we trade barbs as you do your best "Who me?" impression.

[Uncluttered]

I do not have to trawl the internet for spelling errors; they practically fall right into my lap. You miss my point, unsurprisingly, and go for a single statement, like a blueberry-picker (cherry-pick, as a term, is overused) spotting a rotund berry. In any case, you piss and whine and mewl about Ghost Rider being abrasive. You then turn abrasive in your next section. I respond by pointing this out and offering a condensed form of your (rage-riddled, incoherent) statement. You respond by focusing only on this, rather than anything else I said.

Oh, dear. I think that I may have annoyed you slightly.

No sorry. Not annoyed. I'm using all this shit to outline a plot. Some of you have said interesting and notable things.
You
Not so much.

I don't piss and whine about that big-fish-little-pond scum being abrasive.

What I do, is call someone who is acting like and asshole, an asshole.
I also looked at his posting record, and determined that the reason he is angry, is because he has no real life out of SD.net.
This isn't a problem, I've worked with agorophobics before. It's the assholes I can't stand.

You assholes have moved this forum so far off topic for the purpose of waggling your dicks, its probably an unrecoverable thread.

[Ghost Rider]

What I do, is call someone who is acting like and asshole, an asshole.
I also looked at his posting record, and determined that the reason he is angry, is because he has no real life out of SD.net.
This isn't a problem, I've worked with agorophobics before. It's the assholes I can't stand.

You assholes have moved this forum so far off topic for the purpose of waggling your dicks, its probably an unrecoverable thread.

Because none of you have presented proof. Not a single of shred of evidence to be argued that said opponent is going to challenge the Empire, aside from the thought the Empire stands still and lets the OA overminds run wild.

And you read all 27000+ posts? That's says more about you then not. But continue! It'll be a fun 100+ romp as you psychoanalyse and spout nonsense.

[Uncluttered]

We know you're an obstifucating dipshit but you still have not answered Bakustra or anyone's questions. Provide proof that OA can do what you and other have said, provide some proof that OA's materials are within the realm of science as we know it and not their massive conjecture, and demonstrate that suddenly hyperdrives fail to work because OA runs...on writer's fiat of physics?

Anything, or will we trade barbs as you do your best "Who me?" impression.

Who me?

Here are some references for how wormholes might work.

References:
Towards possibility of self-maintained vacuum traversable wormhole- Khatsymosky, Vladimir M..
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9612013
Foam-like structure of the Universe - A. Kirillov and D. Turaev
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/070 ... 0208v2.pdf
How to make a traversable wormhole from a Schwarzschild black hole - S. Hayward and H. Koyama
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0406/0406080v1.pdf
Fate of the first traversable wormhole: black-hole collapse or inflationary expansion - H. Shinkai and S. Hayward
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0205/0205041v2.pdf
Density Fluctuations in the Oscillatory Phase of Nonclassical Inflaton in FRW Universe - K.K.Venkataratnam1 and P.K. Suresh
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/071 ... 3129v1.pdf
and of course the obligatory Wikipedia with lots more references.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Seems pretty legit, if speculative to me. People have written science fiction on less. You know, star wars for instance.

Here's an article of neutrino cooling. You only use it for mega structures. Your mini fridge although owned by a degenerate, isn't the kind of degenerate matter we're talking about.
http://www.astrophysicsspectator.com/to ... oling.html

Now lets look for hyperdrive.

Oh crap, I can't find any real references to hyperdrive.
Here's an article you might find relevant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus