Terminator vs Predator

[Marcus Aurelius]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom.

Well, not really. Before T:SCC and Terminator 4 all we saw was shotguns, pistols, SMGs and 5.56x45 mm assault rifles. All of those are relatively low penetration weapons with standard FMJ bullets. Even a 7.62 mm rifle with armor piercing bullets would be considerably more effective against an armored target. In T:SCC we did see that a .50 cal Barret can kill a T-888 with a well placed head shot as well, and later they did kill another Terminator in Mexico with even lesser weapons, possibly using armor piercing bullets, although it was never explained in the show. I can't remember exactly what weapons they used there, but IIRC it wasn't anything bigger than 7.62 mm.

[Anguirus]

and later they did kill another Terminator in Mexico with even lesser weapons, possibly using armor piercing bullets, although it was never explained in the show. I can't remember exactly what weapons they used there, but IIRC it wasn't anything bigger than 7.62 mm.

You remember wrong. Cameron killed it with a big ass rifle (possibly the Barret from before?). The submachine guns were a distraction.

[Thanas]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom.

Well, not really. Before T:SCC and Terminator 4 all we saw was shotguns, pistols, SMGs and 5.56x45 mm assault rifles. All of those are relatively low penetration weapons with standard FMJ bullets. Even a 7.62 mm rifle with armor piercing bullets would be considerably more effective against an armored target. In T:SCC we did see that a .50 cal Barret can kill a T-888 with a well placed head shot as well, and later they did kill another Terminator in Mexico with even lesser weapons, possibly using armor piercing bullets, although it was never explained in the show. I can't remember exactly what weapons they used there, but IIRC it wasn't anything bigger than 7.62 mm.

Actually, their weapons did jack until Cameron stepped in and shot the Terminator with depleted Uranium shotgun shells. Or at least that is what the writers called it. No idea if such shells actually exist in reality.

[adam_grif]

Actually, their weapons did jack until Cameron stepped in and shot the Terminator with depleted Uranium shotgun shells. Or at least that is what the writers called it. No idea if such shells actually exist in reality.

Doubtful, but there's no reason why it couldn't. If it's a smoothebore weapon (most shotguns aren't rifled, so...) you could concievably load it with APDS munitions, where the sub-munition is a depleted uranium projectile.

This would have very high penetration.

[Shroom Man 777]

Admit it, you still love Robot Rivers though!

Forever and ever!

I don't know. T:SCC's stuff probably isn't applicable to the movie Terminators, due to inconsistencies and stuff. In T1 we've seen the Terminator handle high voltage electrical wires, shoving them into other electrical thinggies, (to blackout the police station) with no ill effect.

Handling does not equal getting zapped by one. I mean, Cameron handles powerlines quite well.

Still, man, getting zapped by a radio or some lights or something as seen in T:SCC won't even knock a human out (I think), but it does that to a Terminator? Weirdness. They, the writers, just needed something jerry-rigged that could stop Terminators momentarily so the characters won't get totally fucked or something.

I mean, shit, T:SCC Terminators melt like putty while T4 Terminator can get bathed in lava and liquid nitrogen and still keep on going.

Eh - actually the stuff they use in T:SCC burns hotter than Lava.

No, not the thermite. I was referring to the tar pits in Goodbye to All That.

T:SCC Terminators can't take repeated shotgun blasts to the face

Can't take repeated shotgun blasts with depleted uranian slugs to the face, usual stuff does not faze them either.

[/quote]

Wasn't explicitly stated to be DU slugs, but it is reasonable to assume that. Then again, Cromartie also did take a jerry-rigged plasma bolt to the face in the first episode, so his skull might already have been structurally weakened.

The Terminator in T4 took multiple grenades without getting fazed at all. That thing was ridiculous!

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Terminator in T4 took multiple grenades without getting fazed at all. That thing was ridiculous!

Not that ridiculous, if we assume that those were HE shells. They rely on small, not very penetrating fragments to hurt people. The blast effect is not very great, since they have only a small amount of HE.

[Thanas]

Still, man, getting zapped by a radio or some lights or something as seen in T:SCC won't even knock a human out (I think), but it does that to a Terminator? Weirdness. They, the writers, just needed something jerry-rigged that could stop Terminators momentarily so the characters won't get totally fucked or something.

Any Human who gets hit by the voltage of a mainline is dead.

No, not the thermite. I was referring to the tar pits in Goodbye to All That.

Was he melting though or simply sinking into the tar? Also keep in mind that his structural integrity was already compromised due to getting his face shot off.

Wasn't explicitly stated to be DU slugs, but it is reasonable to assume that. Then again, Cromartie also did take a jerry-rigged plasma bolt to the face in the first episode, so his skull might already have been structurally weakened.

It was stated in the chat by the writers that they wanted to state it in the episode, but it got cut or missed. Still, they said we should assume these were DU slugs.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Any Human who gets hit by the voltage of a mainline is dead.

It was stated in the chat by the writers that they wanted to state it in the episode, but it got cut or missed. Still, they said we should assume these were DU slugs.

Standard 110/220 V is lethal only he you are unlucky enough and the current passes through your heart. Prolonged shocks are of course usually lethal.

As for APDS shotgun shells, I doubt they would work in real life. An ordinary shotgun slug would not penetrate that well even if it was DU.

[Sarevok]

The thing is it is trivial to insulate against current delivered by domestic power lines. It boggles the mind why the Terminator is not already insulated by virtue of being a machine containing sophisticated electrical and electronic parts itself. Its like skynet decided "hey lets put a conducting loop between the metallic outer armor and vulnerable components within".

[Anguirus]

They didn't just throw a match into the tar, they threw THERMITE into the tar IIRC.

[Shroom Man 777]

They needed pits of thermite to melt the Terminators. In that episode, they just threw a pipe bomb with... I dunno. A thermite pipe bomb? Eh? Meh.

[Anguirus]

Yeah, I'd have to see it again. They probably didn't do as good a job destroying it, but its remains are buried in tar at least.

[Sarevok]

Did not the Connors burn Terminators in a bath tub ? Must be hell of a bath tub to contain enough heat energy to melt a machine that shrugs off molten metal poured on it. I hope Skynet armors future Terminator models with bath tub armor.

[Thanas]

Did not the Connors burn Terminators in a bath tub ?

No.

[Connor MacLeod]

I checked with my DVD. It is not molten - what looks molten but is not is actually the jaded edge from where the blast hit. Easy to mistake in the YOutube bit, but when you see it in full screen, no melting effect there. Just blasted away.

So then it looks like mechanical/explosive damage. Well in that case... I can only make a guess but it looks like a fair chunk of the upper front part of the head was blown away. We can use this calculator to get an idea, even though it probably isnt a laser. The variables I'm using is "structural steel" 1 pulse with a 5 microsecond delay to allow plasma to clear between pulses at 20 kj and a spot diameter of about a centimeter. 20 kj will make a roughly 5 cm diameter explosion, which would be close to what we see I think. If we assume a train of pulses (say 3-4 pulses making the shot up) it would be a total energy of 60-80 kj. If you could get screengrabs of the shot impacting the side of the guy's head and the aftermath when he's facedown on the floor I might be able to get more precise figures (you wouldnt have to post them u phere, you could just send them to me privately to look at and I can try pixel-scaling the wound)

If for the sake of argument it was say a glancing shot and a 5 cm radius rather than diameter (say it hits the side of the temple and blasts a chunk out) it could go up to say 100-150 kj depending on how big a hole we're talking (or the exact combination of variables.) It's not exactly a precise figure, but as a back of the envelope calc it works.

Looking back NL mentioned on page one a rifle making a hole a foot across in concrete. ASsuming a single pulse with the variables above, you could put a ~foot diameter hole in concrete with a 210 kj pulse (which works out to about 50 grams of TNT I might add.)

Roughly speaking that would seem to mesh up with what the Predator's shoulder gun could do. Of course I dont remember the EXACT diameter of the hole made in the first movie, but if we had it we can probably work it out

[Connor MacLeod]

The Terminator in T4 took multiple grenades without getting fazed at all. That thing was ridiculous!

What kind and where did they strike? (EG was it hand grenades that struck the Terminator head on, did they land at its feet, r what?)

[Shroom Man 777]

40mm grenades fired by an M203 by John Connor. I don't know what ammo was used, but a couple of shots totally burned off all the T-800s' skin off.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well according to here a 40mm grenade will have around ~32 grams of composition B if its HE. Composition B has a REF of 1.35 (35% better than TNT, basically) meaning its about 43.2 grams of TNT equivalent.

In comparison to the "explosive" energy bolt analysis I did in Thanas and NL's example (again bearing in mind how approximate all this can be) is 181 kj of energy, although the difference being that its not going to be quite as focused (probably half that energy will be wasted unless the round penetrates.) but it maybe gives us an idea since the Predator gun seems to lack penetration beyond its explosive capability too.

It could be that the rounds are something exotic like HEDP or maybe a buckshot round. I'd bank on HEDP if they figured they were facing a terminator and needed AP firepower.

[Crazedwraith]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom.

Well, not really. Before T:SCC and Terminator 4 all we saw was shotguns, pistols, SMGs and 5.56x45 mm assault rifles. All of those are relatively low penetration weapons with standard FMJ bullets. Even a 7.62 mm rifle with armor piercing bullets would be considerably more effective against an armored target. In T:SCC we did see that a .50 cal Barret can kill a T-888 with a well placed head shot as well, and later they did kill another Terminator in Mexico with even lesser weapons, possibly using armor piercing bullets, although it was never explained in the show. I can't remember exactly what weapons they used there, but IIRC it wasn't anything bigger than 7.62 mm.

Note: It wasn't firing .50 BMG. It was firing The Raufoss which is an anti-material round. With tungsten armour piercing and explosives and hits as hard as 20mm cannon.

[Sam Or I]

Looking at the latest movie, we can get the minimum strength of a Predator. I did not pay enough attention to get all the details, but once it comes out on dvd, or some one takes notes:
Spoiler

Calculate the weight of the log in the swinging log trap, divide that by four. (A quote by a main character states that you want 4 times the weight of the victim of the trap. The traps were made by humans there before.) You get the weight of the approximate weight of a "super" predator. If I remember correctly the normal predator was able to toss him at least a few feet during the predator-on-predator action.

Also the kicking and bending of the metal door. That is the super predator, and the metal is not known, so it is not as useful of a fact.

I don't think it will spoil anything, that a plasma caster is used and it disintegrates (well explodes) an entire upper torso.

Also, depending how well the predators study their prey, it has the capability of determining if the T-800 is not human. But if it uses that capability before hand is unknown. Spoiler

He looks for one of the characters by the heart beat, which would not be detected in a terminator.

Also a quick note about the plasma caster from the new movie: Spoiler

It is able to fire fairly quick, I would say as quick as a semi automatic hand gun, but when doing so it is not very accurate.

[Norade]

Also, depending how well the predators study their prey, it has the capability of determining if the T-800 is not human. But if it uses that capability before hand is unknown. Spoiler

He looks for one of the characters by the heart beat, which would not be detected in a terminator.

Spoiler

Except that he only used that when he had no other way to track his foe. This was not a standard way of hunting. Also, before that he was fooled by fires and mud.

[Sam Or I]

Spoiler

Except that he only used that when he had no other way to track his foe. This was not a standard way of hunting. Also, before that he was fooled by fires and mud.

Agreed for the most part, but it depends on how much studying the predator does before hand. They are used to hunting different types of aliens. While studying their prey do they flip through all the different type of sensors they have to figure out which one works best? If so it would know. If they just did this to one or two of the humans before hand (assuming it was not the T-800), and left it on that setting it would not know. Or if they have a simple "Human" preset.

[Norade]

Spoiler

Except that he only used that when he had no other way to track his foe. This was not a standard way of hunting. Also, before that he was fooled by fires and mud.

Agreed for the most part, but it depends on how much studying the predator does before hand. They are used to hunting different types of aliens. While studying their prey do they flip through all the different type of sensors they have to figure out which one works best? If so it would know. If they just did this to one or two of the humans before hand (assuming it was not the T-800), and left it on that setting it would not know. Or if they have a simple "Human" preset.

Except that they were hunting humans and should have known that they were up against humans but we only see the heartbeat sensor used once and that was after he took a beating. Thus it is rather safe to say that baring very extreme circumstances this mode will not be used.

[Swindle1984]

Weapons from Ternminator that I remember include a colt 45, some assault weapons during the police scene, including a shotgun. In Predator 2, a shotgun fucks up the Predator pretty good, but he does get back up for more.

I'm wondering what kind of penetrating power did those spear darts have and how powerful was the shoulder cannon? I'm not real knowledgeable on Terminator and Predator, but I vote Predator, unless the Terminator gets in close and crushes him to death I guess.

Assuming non-expanding ammunition, let's run through the firearms and their effects.

He used a 12-guage combat shotgun, which was demonstrated in predator 2 to penetrate the skin and into the muscle, but not reach vitals. The pistol was a .45 longslide with a laser sight. It will penetrate just a little more than the shotgun, and is easier to use, more handy in close quarters and has longer range, at the expense of stopping power. He also bought an uzi submachine gun, which will have about the penetration of the shotgun buckshot, actually a little less, but is fully automatic. (Judging by the effect of the shotgun, I'd say the pistols used in earlier scenes in predator fired hollow points.) As for the rifle, he uses an AR-15, which should have good enough penetration to reach vitals and maybe even completely perforate the body. (Depending on ammunition.)

This should tell us how the terminator's weaponry should fare, and at this point I'm going to have to side with him on this.

EDIT: Well, shit. Upon reviewing the footage, the rifle was clearly NOT an AR-15.

The Terminator used an AR-18, SPAS-12 shotgun, Uzi 9mm, custom .45 longslide, and a .38 Special revolver of indeterminate make and model (the only two times we see it are when it is lying on the gun counter but not mentioned, and as the terminator's last-ditch weapon during the final chase.).

The Uzi would actually get more penetration than the shotgun, due to the heavier .355" bullets traveling at higher velocity and stabilized by rifling; the longer barrel on the Uzi also means it has slightly greater velocity than a 9mm pistol firing the same ammunition. Most likely the terminator had it loaded with 115gr FMJ bullets. Meanwhile, 00 buckshot fires nine .330" pellets that are lighter, slower, and made of soft lead rather than coated in copper or brass.

I don't know if this will have any bearing, but in the original novelization (not the shitty second novelization where the shotgun magically transformed from a semi-auto to a pump-action and back and Skynet was called Titan for some reason), the Terminator modified both the Uzi and AR-18 from semi-auto to full-auto using tools and parts he stole from a hardware store (meaning the AR-18 was actually an AR-180.). So at the very least, the Terminator has enough knowledge and mechanical skill to modify or even improvise weaponry if necessary. Considering how difficult it would be to convert a semi-auto AR-180 to full-auto AR-18 (the open-bolt Uzi would be pretty darn easy.), this implies the Terminator has an amazing capacity for fabricating new metal parts with just hand tools in a crappy motel room and installing them into a rifle.

Not that having full-auto made it any more effective at killing Sarah Connor...

[Swindle1984]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom.

Well, not really. Before T:SCC and Terminator 4 all we saw was shotguns, pistols, SMGs and 5.56x45 mm assault rifles. All of those are relatively low penetration weapons with standard FMJ bullets. Even a 7.62 mm rifle with armor piercing bullets would be considerably more effective against an armored target. In T:SCC we did see that a .50 cal Barret can kill a T-888 with a well placed head shot as well, and later they did kill another Terminator in Mexico with even lesser weapons, possibly using armor piercing bullets, although it was never explained in the show. I can't remember exactly what weapons they used there, but IIRC it wasn't anything bigger than 7.62 mm.

Note: It wasn't firing .50 BMG. It was firing The Raufoss which is an anti-material round. With tungsten armour piercing and explosives and hits as hard as 20mm cannon.

*hides face in hands and groans*

The very link you provided to information about the Raufoss special-purpose round specifically says in the first sentence that it is .50BMG ammunition.

Now, explain how adding a tungsten penetrator and a small explosive charge magically gives a rifle firing a 12.7x99mm cartridge the same firepower as a rifle firing a 20x102mm cartridge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... arison.JPG

That's a 20mm Vulcan round with several .50BMG rounds and a golf ball for comparison.


Edit: Fucking huge image changed to just a url to avoid breaking the page.