How long could Mass Effect last against the Federation?

[Ford Prefect]

A link, please. In any event, it is something in the low gigaton range of pure kinetic energy, well concentrated.

Low gigaton range for the Citadel races? Haha, what? Dreadnaught main guns are low double digit kilotons.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Let's recap, correct me if I'm wrong.

Defense
Feds have shields that work somehow. They block stuff. If the thing can't be blocked anymore, Fed ships apparently have the durability of a modern warship (i.e. 'wet cardboard' by scifi standards).

ME ships have a sort of distortion that blocks massive things only (Mass Drivers and Particle Cannons) but cannot block (rest) massless particles like photons, making lasers and massless fictiony beam weapons a viable option. To counter this, ME ships also possess armor with ablative/refractive/absorbent properties as well as absurd mechanical toughness.

Offensive
Fed ships:
Phasers: a coherent beam of slower-than-light particles with dubious mass that do odd things to matter. Capabilities vary, but ablative or very dense armor have consistently shown to be quite resistant against phasers and weapons of similar nature.

Photon Torpedoes: Matter/Antimatter warheads with varying degrees of effectiveness, are apparently quite slow moving, but even low end estimates would make a direct hit a devastating attack against ME starships.

ME
Lasers: commonly used for point defense and 'knife fights', effectiveness in combat implies megawatt to gigawatt output.

Disruptor torpedoes: uses unstable Mass Effect fields to tear targets to pieces with fluctuating mass fields. Designed to bypass ME passive defense systems (armor, ME style shields) so it's unknown what kind of effect they would have on different defenses, so unless someone can find canon info or can calculate a yield themselves it's probably best to leave these out of the debate.

Mass Drivers: Big guns that fire chunks of metal at very very fast speeds. Stated KE for a dreadnought main gun is 150-160 terajoules or 37-38 kilotons. That is, human dreadnoughts, other species may possess more potent MDs. Aside from these, larger ships also sport several dozen smaller, less powerful mass drivers that fire a fraction of this overall level. A more cool-sounding flavor of this is the Thanix cannon that shoots a liquid tungsten shot at similar speeds, this weapon, unlike conventional MDs, can be scaled down enough to fit on a relatively small ship and still remain a potent weapon. These mass drivers are easy to factor into debates due to being highly quantified.

I am at the moment too tired to research the various different and sometimes contradictory FTL numbers for both sides, but I think I can safely say that control of the Mass Relays would be a paramount objective for either side.

[Ford Prefect]

The 38 kiloton number is given for the 888 metre long Everest class. Dreadnaughts are described as being between 800 and 1000 metres long, so while there are more powerful warships floating around (the Destiny Ascension, flagship of the Citadel fleet is explicitly much more formidable than any SAN warship), they're not going to be significantly more powerful.

[Death Motif]

I just love cross-genre what if's. Simply put, there is not enough information in the original question posited to give an agreeable answer. That said, I will only point out a few things:

• Star Fleet focus's primarily on 'naval' activities. As such, they are not an army nor are they trained to fight like one.
  • Thanks to Enterprise, which predates TOS, we learn that there is a Marine detachment that is trained in martial combat (they are just not savvy with shipboard combat).
  • We re-encounter the Marines during the Dominion war. That implies that Star Fleet probably had them during TOS.
  • Consequently, there is a ground combat element available to the Federation should they illogically decide to invade another universe (through said wormhole) that they can call upon to fight.
  • We have no idea what the capabilities of a Federation marine, nor what equipment they employee.
• While combat at warp is possible in the Star Trek Universe, we rarely encounter such combat, and such combat is usually limited to torpedoes as they are capable of maintaining a warp bubble around themselves when fired at warp. Phasers cannot be fired at warp until late in the 24th century.
• About Phasers:
  • Phasers are essentially particle beam weapons. However, to treat them like ME particle weapons would be wrong.
  • Phasers fire an artificial particle called a nadion. The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual describes nadions as unique particles capable of liberating atomic nuclei, disrupting nuclear forces.
  • According to the ST: TNG Technical Manual, the Type-2 Hand Phaser and Type-3 Phaser Rifle have 16 settings. The effects of the 16th setting are as follows:
    • Explosive/Disruption Effects - causes shielded matter to exhibit light mechanical fracturing damage. Approximately 650 cubic meters of rock are disintegrated per shot.
    Consequently, you can imagine the damage a shipboard Phaser cannon can bring to any structure, even the Citadel.

Depending on the capabilities of the Federation Marines, the Federation has a reasonable chance of doing well in ground combat. As for space combat, the Federation owns...period! This is increasingly true the further forward you move in the Prime time-line. Red matter, introduced in Star Trek 2009, would provide the ultimate weapon for the Federation. Even the Citadel could not survive being crushed into a black hole.

[adam_grif]

A more cool-sounding flavor of this is the Thanix cannon that shoots a liquid tungsten shot at similar speeds, this weapon, unlike conventional MDs, can be scaled down enough to fit on a relatively small ship and still remain a potent weapon.

The yeilds are no explicitly higher, they are just "more effective" at combating kintic barriers. Since particle beams basically ignore them along with lasers, it seems likely that low mass high velocity things are better at getting through them, and weapons with less particle interactoin are more effective than things with high interaction (i.e. liquids/gas/plasma is better than solid).

[Stargazer]

The Citadel could still be damaged by a dreadnought firing at it for days according to the Codex.

A Federation flee firing at it for it for days might destroy it, but reinforements will likely attack them and withou the relays the Federation fleet would also be screwed logistically.

Btw, what's with the big debate over Star Trek's ground capabilities? Does anyone here seriously think tha Federation ground troops can match the Citadel races' armies? In ground combat the Federation gets massively stomped on.

The actual estimation is that the Citadel's armor layer would need sustained bombardment of a whole fleet for days in order to penetrate it. That's a loose limit, because no one has actually decided to waste the time and resources to try it. Combine that with the fact that a mass relay survived a supernova, and no, no Federation fleet is going to be able to destroy the Citadel in a timely manner.

The yeilds are no explicitly higher, they are just "more effective" at combating kintic barriers. Since particle beams basically ignore them along with lasers, it seems likely that low mass high velocity things are better at getting through them, and weapons with less particle interactoin are more effective than things with high interaction (i.e. liquids/gas/plasma is better than solid).

What? There's no mention of the Thanix being more effective at penetrating kinetic barriers. That would be the Collector particle beam. To quote the Codex entry on the Thanix Cannon, "The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate." So yes, the yields are explicitly higher.

[Omeganian]

A link, please. In any event, it is something in the low gigaton range of pure kinetic energy, well concentrated.

Low gigaton range for the Citadel races? Haha, what? Dreadnaught main guns are low double digit kilotons.

Every few seconds, multiplied by a few days.

BTW, about the ME ships' durability:

We have seen Normandy survive a considerable length of time in the rather high radiation conditions of the galactic core. We have also seen it (and other ships) withstand the extremely powerful winds in a brown dwarf, while the Federation ships, as mentioned by Mr. Wong's site, were hesitant to enter an ordinary gas giant.

Oh, and one more thing. There's this (first quarian, and then geth) space station. It is considerably larger than Fed starbases. And no one seems to be the slightest bit impressed with its size.

[adam_grif]

What? There's no mention of the Thanix being more effective at penetrating kinetic barriers. That would be the Collector particle beam. To quote the Codex entry on the Thanix Cannon, "The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate." So yes, the yields are explicitly higher.

A fighter or frigate can't generate enough electricity for it to be firing guns with yields equivelant to a cruiser. Every Joule of energy that strikes the target must have been provided by the power plant on board since it is electromagnetically propelled. Yet the guns have "the same firepower", implying that the weapons are more effective. Not that they have more energy.

And before you bring up "Those new guns Garrus installed nearly doubled the power draw" line of dialogue, that's because there were either NO GUNS before or guns that were wing-mounted (not the full length of the ship like most guns).

[Stargazer]

Or the weapon is somehow more efficient than regular mass accelerators. The bottom line is that it is explicitly said to give fighters and frigates the firepower of a cruiser, and there's no mention of it just being more effective. At all.

[Junghalli]

We have seen Normandy survive a considerable length of time in the rather high radiation conditions of the galactic core.

Good radiation shielding doesn't necessarily mean it'll react well to being blown up. A good neutron radiation shielding is hydrogen, for instance, which would make pretty shit armor. I'm not sure what sort of radiation is present close to the central black hole, I'd guess probably more high energy photons like X-rays for which you'd probably want some dense material like lead, which would probably confer some amount of protection against weapons just by being dense, but radiation shielding and armor are two different things.

Also keep in mind in shielding from radiation you might be able to get away with just shielding sensistive areas like crew quarters, rather than the whole ship. Consider then that such shielding would by its nature be quite heavy, and what carrying lots of heavy stuff around would do to a rocket's fuel economy and performance...

We have also seen it (and other ships) withstand the extremely powerful winds in a brown dwarf, while the Federation ships, as mentioned by Mr. Wong's site, were hesitant to enter an ordinary gas giant.

Why would a brown dwarf necessarily have more powerful winds than a gas giant?

[Omeganian]

We have seen Normandy survive a considerable length of time in the rather high radiation conditions of the galactic core.

Good radiation shielding doesn't necessarily mean it'll react well to being blown up.

Maybe. But it would be more logical to compare it to the ST radiation resistance. In general, the Feds tend to keep away from stars and pulsars.

Damage resistance should be compared separately.

Also keep in mind in shielding from radiation you might be able to get away with just shielding sensistive areas like crew quarters, rather than the whole ship.

And electronics everywhere. Plus, in addition to the crew quarters there are observation decks, which, naturally, aren't deep in the ship. Two of the crew members are sitting there - and no radiation problems.

Consider then that such shielding would by its nature be quite heavy, and what carrying lots of heavy stuff around would do to a rocket's fuel economy and performance...

The Normandy manages.

We have also seen it (and other ships) withstand the extremely powerful winds in a brown dwarf, while the Federation ships, as mentioned by Mr. Wong's site, were hesitant to enter an ordinary gas giant.

Why would a brown dwarf necessarily have more powerful winds than a gas giant?

[/quote]

Approximately the same wind speed is stated (500 kph). But there are additional factors like temperature which add to the hazard.

[Peptuck]

Depending on the capabilities of the Federation Marines, the Federation has a reasonable chance of doing well in ground combat.

lolwhut. The Federation can't even equip its ground troops with a squad support weapon and they're supposed to do well against ground armies armed with gunships, heavy armor, and infantry equipped with a full range of infantry weapons and actual armor?

As for space combat, the Federation owns...period! This is increasingly true the further forward you move in the Prime time-line. Red matter, introduced in Star Trek 2009, would provide the ultimate weapon for the Federation. Even the Citadel could not survive being crushed into a black hole.

That really depends on the effectiveness of red matter. It apparently has to be inside a massive object in order to generate a black hole sufficient to destroy a planet, otherwise Nero wouldn't have needed to drill down into the core of Vulcan and Earth to use it.

[Junghalli]

Maybe. But it would be more logical to compare it to the ST radiation resistance. In general, the Feds tend to keep away from stars and pulsars.

That doesn't really tell us much about combat capabilities though.

Also, can I get some quantification on this "hard radiation environment"? I would try to look it up myself but I have to get to work soon. Same goes for the "can survive in a brown dwarf atmosphere" feat.

Approximately the same wind speed is stated (500 kph). But there are additional factors like temperature which add to the hazard.

Why would a brown dwarf's atmosphere necessarily be hotter than a gas giant's? In the upper layers of the atmosphere proximity to the sun would matter a lot. For that matter, are you sure they were even in an environment where heat would be a hazard? That doesn't automatically follow from "they were hanging out in the atmosphere of a gas giant-like body".

[adam_grif]

The Normandy crew thinks that jumping to the galactic core is suicide due to the radiation, but the Collectors are apparently maintaining some sort of artificial safe-zone. They even speculate as such. There's no reason to believe that the SR2 has unusually good radiation shielding.

[Stargazer]

That really depends on the effectiveness of red matter. It apparently has to be inside a massive object in order to generate a black hole sufficient to destroy a planet, otherwise Nero wouldn't have needed to drill down into the core of Vulcan and Earth to use it.

That actually makes sense. The volatility of a red matter-generated singularity depends on the size of the target and location within the target. That would explain two other odd things- why the singularity that consumed Vulcan apparently didn't continue onward to destroy the entire system, and why the entire load of red matter didn't instantly crush the Narada.

[Death Motif]

Depending on the capabilities of the Federation Marines, the Federation has a reasonable chance of doing well in ground combat.

lolwhut. The Federation can't even equip its ground troops with a squad support weapon and they're supposed to do well against ground armies armed with gunships, heavy armor, and infantry equipped with a full range of infantry weapons and actual armor?

If you're going to quote someone, don't just pick it apart and choose your favorite bit. Quote everything that's relevant to context. I clearly stated that there was evidence that Federation marines existed, but that little was known about their capabilities due to insufficient information. The majority of ground combat seen in Star Trek is carried out by Star Fleet personnel who are clearly not trained in sustained ground combat techniques. This in no way provides evidence of a Federation Marine's capabilities.

As for space combat, the Federation owns...period! This is increasingly true the further forward you move in the Prime time-line. Red matter, introduced in Star Trek 2009, would provide the ultimate weapon for the Federation. Even the Citadel could not survive being crushed into a black hole.

That really depends on the effectiveness of red matter. It apparently has to be inside a massive object in order to generate a black hole sufficient to destroy a planet, otherwise Nero wouldn't have needed to drill down into the core of Vulcan and Earth to use it.

I'll concede that point. What little is seen about red matter in the movie leads one to speculate that it depends on a source of matter to function. What is unknown is how mass of the red matter relates to the consumption of other matter (we have no idea what effects, if any, red matter has on anti matter). Does the mass of red matter accelerate the rate in which normal matter is consumed? Does the mass of red matter create a steeper (read stronger) gravity well? Does red matter even have mass? I would suspect so, but there is no way to reliably deduce that from the movie. In the battle, after the collision of the two ships, we see red matter, that is spread out, collecting together at the center. We can only infer two questions: Did the red matter collect at the center due to a strong attraction to other red matter particles, or did the red matter collect at the center due to interaction of the red matter with normal matter resulting in the observed black hole effect? All that we know is that the red matter and the ship were consumed in the resulting black hole anomaly.

Depending on the answer to these questions, I suspect that red matter could make one hell of a singularity torpedo, especially if the reaction is sustained by the availability of the mass around it. However, due to the fact that red matter is apparently strong enough to eliminate the effects of a super nova, I suspect that the Federation would outlaw the weaponization of red matter as every tom, dick and harry race would start turning each others stars into black holes. That would definitely put nukes to bed as weapons of mass destruction.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The Normandy crew thinks that jumping to the galactic core is suicide due to the radiation, but the Collectors are apparently maintaining some sort of artificial safe-zone. They even speculate as such. There's no reason to believe that the SR2 has unusually good radiation shielding.

Is there an exact quote on this? As I remember, the issue about jumping to the core is the fact that drift from a normal jump is enough that they'd likely end up in a black hole, which is why they needed the Reaper IFF to get more precise jump coordinates.

[adam_grif]

Is there an exact quote on this?

I'm sure there is, but I don't have one. I lent my copy of ME2 to one of my lecturers several months ago and haven't got it back yet. You could try the Mass Effect Wiki.

As I remember, the issue about jumping to the core is the fact that drift from a normal jump is enough that they'd likely end up in a black hole, which is why they needed the Reaper IFF to get more precise jump coordinates.

Black holes were mentioned as a hazard, but so were "exploding stars" and, iirc, radiation (probably caused by these two thigns). From memory they say something like that the Collectors must be maintaining a safe zone, and mutter something about how it's "not beyond the reaper's technology", but that memory is VERY hazy and may in fact correlate to nothing in reality.

Someone should double check if possible.

[open_sketchbook]

Honestly, it's probably a little of all of the above. The Collector base also has a sizable debris field surrounding it that most ships going through the relay probably just plow right in to. The Reaper IFF may in fact just tell the relay to drop the ship in an area not currently occupied by a wreck, and everyone else gets embedded into the side of a million year old spacecraft of some description.

[adam_grif]

Well it's still not reliable, but the ME Wikia's "Collector Base" page says:

The Collector base presumably survives proximity to a black hole due to what Commander Shepard posits is Reaper technology, and keeps at least one Collector Cruiser docked with it, which is dwarfed in size by the base itself. The base has the same semi-organic interior as the Collector Cruiser.

A note about the debris field though - the relay is shit at avoiding the debris. The SR2 is orders of magnitude smaller and less massive than the collector cruiser, but somehow the relay dropped it out meters away from incoming debris, and if not for Joker keeping an eye out for it they would have been smooshed instantly.

I'm not sure how the Collector cruiser is supposed to survive impact from entire space ships like that. It must get battered pretty hard...

[Omeganian]

Maybe. But it would be more logical to compare it to the ST radiation resistance. In general, the Feds tend to keep away from stars and pulsars.

That doesn't really tell us much about combat capabilities though.

The USS Odyssey was destroyed by an impact considerably weaker than a ME dreadnought round.

Same goes for the "can survive in a brown dwarf atmosphere" feat.

http://www.universetoday.com/8385/weath ... arf-stars/

Approximately the same wind speed is stated (500 kph). But there are additional factors like temperature which add to the hazard.

Why would a brown dwarf's atmosphere necessarily be hotter than a gas giant's? In the upper layers of the atmosphere proximity to the sun would matter a lot. For that matter, are you sure they were even in an environment where heat would be a hazard? That doesn't automatically follow from "they were hanging out in the atmosphere of a gas giant-like body".

It is luminous and radiates more heat than it receives from the star, Thorne, with an atmospheric temperature in excess of 1,800 degrees Kelvin (1,500 degrees Celsius).

Well it's still not reliable, but the ME Wikia's "Collector Base" page says:

The Collector base presumably survives proximity to a black hole due to what Commander Shepard posits is Reaper technology, and keeps at least one Collector Cruiser docked with it, which is dwarfed in size by the base itself. The base has the same semi-organic interior as the Collector Cruiser.

A note about the debris field though - the relay is shit at avoiding the debris. The SR2 is orders of magnitude smaller and less massive than the collector cruiser, but somehow the relay dropped it out meters away from incoming debris, and if not for Joker keeping an eye out for it they would have been smooshed instantly.

I'm not sure how the Collector cruiser is supposed to survive impact from entire space ships like that. It must get battered pretty hard...

Perhaps EDI didn't integrate the IFF perfectly. Or perhaps the cruiser is battered into shreds from time to time. Who cares? Plenty of material lying around to rebuild it. Only the visiting Reapers are important, and they survive.

[Stargazer]

A note about the debris field though - the relay is shit at avoiding the debris. The SR2 is orders of magnitude smaller and less massive than the collector cruiser, but somehow the relay dropped it out meters away from incoming debris, and if not for Joker keeping an eye out for it they would have been smooshed instantly.

I'm not sure how the Collector cruiser is supposed to survive impact from entire space ships like that. It must get battered pretty hard...

Maybe the Collectors come to a full stop before using the relay and thus don't have any momentum to propel themselves into debris on the other side of the relay.

[Junghalli]

http://www.universetoday.com/8385/weath ... arf-stars/
...

It is luminous and radiates more heat than it receives from the star, Thorne, with an atmospheric temperature in excess of 1,800 degrees Kelvin (1,500 degrees Celsius).

A quantification that leaves much to be desired as brown dwarfs aren't a homogenous class of objects; they vary depending on mass and age. There is, for instance, at least one brown dwarf with a surface temperature as (relatively) low as 350 C (link); still pretty warm by our standards but hardly "OMG the ship must be SO TOUGH to be able to survive in that!".

Actually the article itself isn't bad, it's more that the section you quoted taken in isolation is somewhat misleading. Later on it goes on to say:

“Brown dwarfs have traditionally been studied like stars, but it’s more of a continuum,” Marley said. “If you line a mug shot of Jupiter up with these guys, it is just a very low-mass brown dwarf.” Brown dwarfs are a training ground for scientists to learn how to interpret observations of planet-like objects around other stars, he said. “Everybody wants to find brown dwarfs that are even colder and have water clouds just like Earth. Once we find those, that will be a good test of our understanding.”

[Omeganian]

http://www.universetoday.com/8385/weath ... arf-stars/
...

It is luminous and radiates more heat than it receives from the star, Thorne, with an atmospheric temperature in excess of 1,800 degrees Kelvin (1,500 degrees Celsius).

A quantification that leaves much to be desired as brown dwarfs aren't a homogenous class of objects; they vary depending on mass and age. There is, for instance, at least one brown dwarf with a surface temperature as (relatively) low as 350 C (link); still pretty warm by our standards but hardly "OMG the ship must be SO TOUGH to be able to survive in that!".

1,800 Kelvin is the temperature given in ME2 for that particular brown dwarf.

[Junghalli]

1,800 Kelvin is the temperature given in ME2 for that particular brown dwarf.

Cool, although it would have been nice if you'd made the context of the quote clearer from the start.

Of course, this still doesn't necessarily tell us anything about "durability" relative to Trek ships unless we know more about that gas giant incident you mentioned earlier. "They were worried about flying into a gas giant" is a very uninformative statement.

Also, it only really lets us quantify the endurance of ME ships for being dumped in a hot environment. Surviving a steady hot and windy environment, while being impressive enough, isn't the same thing as surviving being right next to a nuclear-level M/AM annihilation reaction.