Avatar Military Wankers Read This First

[andrewgpaul]

The only unobtanium mine we know they objected to is the one under the Home Tree, for obvious reasons. For all we know, in the ten years between the Venture Star leaving and the response arriving, Jake and the other humans will explain what they need it for and why and Pandora will have nicely rolled back the vegetation and exposed the seams so the unobtanium can be simply picked up and carted away. Necronlord's point, which you appear to have totally missed, is that there's no reason why any future contact between humanity and the Na'Vi need be hostile.

[NecronLord]

What he said. Provide evidence that all future contact must inherently be violent, or concede. Those are your choices.

This notion ignores that there are humans still living there, it's kind of obvious that the Na'vi aren't some kind of zombies consumed with a drive to kill all humans, and therefore their response to future arrivals will depend on how they're approached.

And it's not just the Na'vi you have to worry about. And the risks of pissing off something that can cure the common cold are very great indeed. Wisely cut from the final film, 880 has...

Josh [Jake], on camera, tells whoever is watching that the natural defenses, the immune system, of Pandora will not allow humans to set foot here again. Just like the cold and flu counterviruses were created, a new virus will be created. It will be a virus lethal to humans. An airborne hemorrhagic fever. A flesheating virus from Hell. If it gets back to Earth as a result of future expeditions here, the whole human race will die screaming. Pandora is off- limits for all time.

That incidentally, is your best evidence, but as I say, this particular idea was dropped from the film, presumably to allow for the return of humans when the sequels were being considered. The fact that in the actual film, humans are allowed to contradict it, shows that the thinking on future attitudes to human presence are not as extreme.

But the danger of fucking with something that can arrange a whole biosystem to its will is considerably greater than that posed by some guys with (big, dangerous) bows and arrers.

-----

On a broader topic of Na'vi with guns (Connor's topic, I think) there's a bit from the project 880 scriptment that sheds some light on who the guys with guns are at the end.

AT HELL'S GATE the avatars have secured the base and established control. They stand guard with weapons as the human survivors of the battle are marched onto the shuttle.

At least at that point in the development of the film, they were imagined as avatars (the term is clearly differentiated from Na'vi throughout).

[Knife]

Another thing to consider is that the conflict isn't all Humans and all Na'vi. It was against the RDA and Home Tree tribe (don't remember their name), and specifically about the easiest and most profitable unobtainium and their home. The plains people, and coastal tribes of Na'vi didn't come into the war because of humans attacking their area's, they did it due to a cultural norm of banding together in 'times of need' and the coming of a 'jesus' figure identified by riding a huge nasty bird.

Granted, now that a war was waged, future human explorations will be tainted by all those tribes fighting the evil humans; then again, future explorations will have to actually negotiate in good faith and mine unobtainium in non contested regions to skip all the drama (though that makes a boring movie). New explorations could come to different regions and make treaties with different tribes, just do it in good faith. It would probably be in Earth's best interest to reinforce Jakes efforts on behalf of the Na'Vi as well as support the scientific staff that remained. Those that fought with the Na'Vi will be able to better observe and treat with them, giving Earth real 'ambassadors' to Pandora.

[NecronLord]

Another thing to consider is that the conflict isn't all Humans and all Na'vi. It was against the RDA and Home Tree tribe (don't remember their name), and specifically about the easiest and most profitable unobtainium and their home. The plains people, and coastal tribes of Na'vi didn't come into the war because of humans attacking their area's, they did it due to a cultural norm of banding together in 'times of need' and the coming of a 'jesus' figure identified by riding a huge nasty bird.

Ometicaya tribe. That said, all the secondary material indicates the Na'vi have a remarkably unified culture (different continents speak the same language) due to the world-mind, so it's likely that the attack on the Ometicaya will prejudice most other Na'vi in future dealings, to a greater or lesser degree.

But the Na'vi aren't stupid, and can tell the difference between the RDA's goons, scientists, and presumably, the Jarhead Clan.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, not quite. Imagine you're using a grenade for the first time, without any practical practise. You have to twist the loop in and pull it out. Both of those operations require a significant amount of force (the movies you see where the hero pulls the pin with his teeth? Try that in real life and its your teeth which will be coming out, not the pin)

Heh.

On a totally random side-note, it strikes me that the Na'vi might actually be able to pull that off- it depends on whether those carbon-fiber bones of theirs extend to the structure of the jawbone...

Also, due to the target's high relative motion, you need to time the throw very accurately (unless the grenades they used had impact fuses) - in a ground battle, the grenade will usually stay where it landed until it detonates; here it needs to pretty much detonate on contact or it'll probably explode uselessly in the jungle.

As I recall, Jake jumped off his mount and onto the shuttle and threw the grenades in from that relatively stable position, after clearing the gunners from the shuttle surface using his own rifle. I think that's right. Not sure.

Na'vi could have done the same, but this does not eliminate the other problems.

Was their any evidence that the Na'vi would be totally unwilling to host another human population? They're biggest concern during the early days of RDA presence was that the RDA personnel were environmentally clumsy and clearly didn't understand how to respect the planet's ecosystem.

As far as it seems, unobtanium is mined in huge surface mines, that aren't exactly environmentally-friendly due to the simple reason that you have to obliterate huge amounts of forest.

Humans are there only to mine unobtanium. Everything else is secondary and doesn't pay for the trip.
+
Navi don't like the unobtanium mining operations.
=
Conflict.

While open pit mines are the cheapest way to mine unobtainium, the stuff is so insanely valuable that almost any method of mining, however complicated, would still be cost-effective. It would not be that difficult to come up with less environmentally invasive means of mining the stuff than bulldozing a path through two hundred kilometers of thick jungle, razing important nodes of the planetary ecosystem's neural net, and demolishing the home of one of the larger local tribes.

I mean for crying out loud, how was RDA making any money before they tore down Home Tree? They were mining the stuff from somewhere else, without provoking all out war with the natives or getting the planetary ecosystem so mad at them.

The conflict can be resolved, if Eywa is willing to listen and the humans are willing to not be complete assholes about it.

[Zixinus]

Here's a question: do we know whether unobtinium influence Eywa or the biosphere? For all we know, the fact that the/a Home Tree was located beneath a big deposit of the stuff is not a coincidence.

[Batman]

Actually, the Home Tree was above the deposit, which was sort of the problem. If it had been beneath chances are the RDA would have started mining while the Na'Vi continued frolicking around their massive underground tree home

And whether or not the unobtanium had anything to do with Eywa being semisentient was never touched upon.

[jollyreaper]

My couple of thoughts.

I liked the movie. I would have liked a little more complexity in the story but we sure got a lot for our money.

I thought it was a bit of a reach to have sexy humanoid aliens. Could have been made part of the mystery rather than an oversight. Wait a sec, these guys are using DNA like us and are humanoid and don't seem to fit in with the rest of the hexapod fauna with the neck breathing tubes. They're genetically compatible and have human faces and .... shit, this is Chariots of the Gods evidence staring us right in the goddamn eyes. And what does that mean for Earth? Are we transplants from Pandora or are the Na'vi transplants from here? I'm thinking it's the Na'vi. Who did it? Why?

This would lead directly to the next point, why can't unobtanium be mined in space? The fluff says it's a mix of standard elements in a special way that makes it superconducting and it's only on Pandora as a result of the unique properties of the planet and cooling from a moltent ball of lava in the presence of a huge gas giant magnetic field. If that's the case, we should so totally be able to synthesize it.

The correct answer is that unobtanium is an artificial alloy created from super-heavy trans-uranic elements in the postulated islands of stability. They're not radioactive, not found in nature, and are the obvious product of a radically advanced civilization. The unobtanium makes up the wiring of the planetary overmind which is why our mining it pisses off the Na'vi. We're lobotomizing the homeworld.

That leads to another question. Who are the Na'vi? My thought is that Pandora is a post-singularity world. The original race is now living in virchspace inside the Gaia network. The natural world we see now is a reconstruction of what they'd previously destroyed. Perhaps the original Pandorans had been to Earth, saw we were technological and would eventually make it to Pandora and brought a few of us back to integrate into their ecology. The Na'vi are thus constructs meant to facilitate communication and understanding between us and their overmind. Alas, that's completely not the case, nothing I said above, not a jot of it. Sad because that would really tie up some loose ends and plot holes.

I also thought the Jake sleeping with her bit was a reach seeing as these critters pair-bond for life and he's not even sure when he's rotating home. This isn't the first time a foreign soldier's hooked up with a local but it speaks poorly of his character that he's willing to take something he can't possibly reciprocate (or at least had no idea he could.)

The one other thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the bomber tactic. Why did the Valk have to fly at a hover right at a convenient altitude for the enemy to attack? Felt dumb. Probably could have been worked around if they established the idea of using a cargo dirigible or some sort of lifting platform for moving the heaviest equipment. Maybe something like the Pentagon's canceled Walrus program? That was a lifting body dirigible for rough field deployment. If they're bombing with something like that, it fits perfectly into the flight profile the Na'vi need to make an effective attack. Even if the Valk had to slow to a hover to accurately drop the improvised bomb, it could have done so after flying in at cruising speed faster than the dragons could attack.

Now for followup, I agree that the RDA probably was not equipped to drop rocks from orbit. Any subsequent expedition will be. If unobtanium is vital for human survival, we'll just drop a few dino-killers and start mining before the dust has even settled. The RDA in the first movie was not equipped as an invasion force, they were more like a police force. A city's police can handle protests that turn ugly but they're not going to do as well in a crazed goddamn riot where the people they're fighting are doing their very best to kill them and won't back down. That part's very realistic, them being armed for a fall smaller problem than the ultimately found themselves dealing with. The next group coming will be very prepared.

Overall, I'd rank these as minor quibbles. The movie was entertaining. I enjoyed myself.

[jollyreaper]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but given that this is the only Avatar thread currently extant: did anyone else see the film and immediately assume that the Navi, their planet, or both had to be artificial? I understand the danger of "I can't understand it, therefore it's impossible", but still - try as I might, I cannot come up with a way for that kind of setup to develop without intelligent meddling.

Totally.

[jollyreaper]

And seriously, take a look at the actions of the RDA. Sorry, but the Na'vi are morally superior to most of the humans in this scenario.

One point -- they aren't called hunters, they're called warriors. Warriors implies war and they're not using ceremonial weapons that would make "combat" a sporting event everyone lives through at the end. Their weapons are designed to kill.

So, what kind of warfare do the Na'vi get up to? We never saw anything but this implies they're less ecological mary sues and more like blue Fremen.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I thought it was a bit of a reach to have sexy humanoid aliens. Could have been made part of the mystery rather than an oversight. Wait a sec, these guys are using DNA like us and are humanoid and don't seem to fit in with the rest of the hexapod fauna with the neck breathing tubes. They're genetically compatible and have human faces and .... shit, this is Chariots of the Gods evidence staring us right in the goddamn eyes.

IIRC the fact that the Na'vi don't seem to "fit" Pandora is noted in-universe.

[jollyreaper]

I thought it was a bit of a reach to have sexy humanoid aliens. Could have been made part of the mystery rather than an oversight. Wait a sec, these guys are using DNA like us and are humanoid and don't seem to fit in with the rest of the hexapod fauna with the neck breathing tubes. They're genetically compatible and have human faces and .... shit, this is Chariots of the Gods evidence staring us right in the goddamn eyes.

IIRC the fact that the Na'vi don't seem to "fit" Pandora is noted in-universe.

In the movie or expanded universe fluff? (Which, as I understand, is still pretty much Word of God at this point.)

[Lord of the Abyss]

I thought it was a bit of a reach to have sexy humanoid aliens. Could have been made part of the mystery rather than an oversight. Wait a sec, these guys are using DNA like us and are humanoid and don't seem to fit in with the rest of the hexapod fauna with the neck breathing tubes. They're genetically compatible and have human faces and .... shit, this is Chariots of the Gods evidence staring us right in the goddamn eyes.

IIRC the fact that the Na'vi don't seem to "fit" Pandora is noted in-universe.

In the movie or expanded universe fluff? (Which, as I understand, is still pretty much Word of God at this point.)

The latter I believe.

[hongi]

One point -- they aren't called hunters, they're called warriors. Warriors implies war and they're not using ceremonial weapons that would make "combat" a sporting event everyone lives through at the end. Their weapons are designed to kill.

So, what kind of warfare do the Na'vi get up to? We never saw anything but this implies they're less ecological mary sues and more like blue Fremen.

So more like us then. The Na'vi are still morally superior to the RDA in the movie even if they were war-like.

[someone_else]

The only unobtanium mine we know they objected to is the one under the Home Tree, for obvious reasons.

Yeah, sure. You did enter late when the movie was already begun perhaps?

After they show the mine and the gigantic mining equipment, they close up on the wheels of a gigantic yellow mine truck. There were a few Na'vi arrows stuck in it.

Also, in the backstory, a group of Na'vi destroyed somehow one of the big bulldozers or somesuch. This caused a reaction of the trigger-happy guards that went and made a slaughter of the kids in Grace's school or slaughtered some other random Na'vi and the kids never came again at the school, don't remeber exactly.

And again, Quarritch talks about how much the Na'vi annoyed them in the past throughout the movie.

Personally, the "unobtanium under the hometree" story reeks of bullshit from light years away. If it is true, then it is the biggest deus ex machina of this universe.
It's much more likely Quarritch didn't wanted to go into the details of why Na'vi must leave with Jake, which also explains why he chose Jake (a total newbie that doesn't know a damn about what is going on there). Saying "huh, they were fighting back us with guerrilla for 20 years now, your job is to go there and tell us how to kill them all" wasn't going to give the same result.

Necronlord's point, which you appear to have totally missed, is that there's no reason why any future contact between humanity and the Na'Vi need be hostile.

I already explained that if humans don't mine unobtanium, there won't be any more contact. And that mining unobtanium pisses off the Na'vi.

What he said. Provide evidence that all future contact must inherently be violent, or concede. Those are your choices.

Let's addd something more. Technically Na'vi were peacefully going away after the Hometree was destroyed. It's Jake that started the final battle by coming back with a bigger bird (pun intended) to rally up all other Na'vi and asking the Forest Goddess's assistence.

But the danger of fucking with something that can arrange a whole biosystem to its will is considerably greater than that posed by some guys with (big, dangerous) bows and arrers.

Ehm, so far the Forest Goddess thing did just manage to make a mindless animal charge against the RDA after Jake asked for it. There is no evidence that abovementioned Forest Goddess is responsible of the (claimed) absence of illnesses on Pandora, nor that it is particularly more intelligent than a ant hive's swarm mind (it did less than nothing for more than decades). The fact human illnesses fail to work on alien phisiology/biochemistry does not prove a damn thing.
I'd also like to know how that piece of crap can "cure" herpes or any other virus that integrates its DNA in the host's without resorting to psionics or arcane magic.

I don't understand why all of you get wrapped up so much with a plant-like planet-wide hive mind that can communicate with animals but is too dumb to coordinate an attack without a blue chimp calling the shots.

Don't be bought by Na'vi religion. That thing is just a (dumb) hive mind. Na'vi idealized it and made it a goddess in their tree-hugging dirt-worshipping religion, but it's not truer than other religions we have on Earth.

On a broader topic of Na'vi with guns (Connor's topic, I think) there's a bit from the project 880 scriptment that sheds some light on who the guys with guns are at the end.

Yes, those were Avatars even in the real movie. If you see the beginning of the movie, there are quite a bit of Avatars when Jake runs outside semi-naked.

While open pit mines are the cheapest way to mine unobtainium, the stuff is so insanely valuable that almost any method of mining, however complicated, would still be cost-effective.

It is also very cost-effective to have the US military to do the security work and let the mining company pay only for the mining.

They were mining the stuff from somewhere else, without provoking all out war with the natives or getting the planetary ecosystem so mad at them.

The natives were fighting back in a slightly smarter way, by guerrilla tactics (pissing off Quarritch to no end). Than came Cowboy Jake that decided to have the ground units charge machinegun nests while he was busy abusing of his VIPC invunerability to avoid being shredded by machinegun nests on top of the white shuttle.

The conflict can be resolved, if Eywa is willing to listen and the humans are willing to not be complete assholes about it.

Call me pessimist, but I'm betting on humans being assholes as history showed in the past.

If Cowboy Jake didn't do something so totally idiotic like sending back all the miners, there wouldn't be any reason to resort to further violence.
If Jake and the Na'vi just took control of the mining ops and forced them to be slightly more enviro-friendly, they would have solved this issue forever.
Since Spice is Still Flowing, none is upset on Earth, and maybe they will even like the fact they won't have to pay for a militia anymore.

But Cameron wants to do another movie, and wants to have another shooting contest. So Jake behaves like a 10 year old.

[jollyreaper]

And when humans return, they can drop rocks from orbit. No need to fight on the ground. If this is a matter of earth's survival, the public says fuck the smurfs.

I'm interested in the sequel but have no idea how a credible conflict can be maintained. The hummies don't need a happy biosphere to mine the stuff. Turn it to a moonscape, put in gun drones, kill anything that walks or crawls. Drop more rocks on other hometrees if they give you any guff.

Shit, the Iraqis couldn't dislodge the US from Iraq. We defeated ourselves by not having a plan and fighting stupid but we'll leave when we feel like it, not be pushed into the sea. If we were nazis and world opinion didnt matter, we could have killed everyone in the country and had free access to the oil. Only the externalities prevented us from being Nazis. And there's less of those with pandora. The only info coming back is via the starships controlled by the Corp.

[NecronLord]

And when humans return, they can drop rocks from orbit. No need to fight on the ground. If this is a matter of earth's survival, the public says fuck the smurfs.

I direct you to "Avatar Human-Wank Argument #1: Nuke the Site From Orbit, It’s the Only Way to be Sure" - in fact they don't need to do that at all, they have a long range laser that powers their ships on their outward trips. They could easily direct it at Pandora if they just wanted a killfest.

I'm interested in the sequel but have no idea how a credible conflict can be maintained.

See Avatar Human-Wank Argument #1: Nuke the Site From Orbit, they won't be doing that.

[Starglider]

I regret that I was originally a little more apologetic to the humans in Pandora than I should have been, due to the cool tech factor and the irritating tribal mysticism/noble savagery factor. My position was and still is that the mining was justifiable but that the aggressive military action was unprovoked and unforgivable mass murder. However I am now less inclined to believe that the genocidical faction would prevail following the events of the movie.

The only info coming back is via the starships controlled by the Corp.

I really don't think so. The official story will be completely controlled and biased, but firstly there is a very strong incentive to defect for staff who wish to prove themselves innocent in the conflict, or just plea bargin with the authorities. Secondly the humans remaining on Pandora almost certainly have interstellar communication capability. Even if you seriously believe the base isn't equipped with dedicated equipment (unlikely), their normal base-to-VTOL radios work over hundreds of miles, and contemporary radio telescopes would suffice to pick up transmissions of that power (never mind future ones). Appropriately edited flight recorder footage from downed and abandoned gunships, lots of panning shots of burnt forest and sobbing Naavi, and SpaceAmnestyInternational (massively funded by RDA's competitors) will be all over the RDA.

The genocide faction would have more luck with a bioweapon, since that can be developed in secret, introduced by just one agent, and there is at least some plausible deniability. However the whole sentient biosphere thing might make biowarfare rather harder than it usually would be.

[NecronLord]

Personally, the "unobtanium under the hometree" story reeks of bullshit from light years away.

Only if we presuppose that the giant tree did not grow that way due to the minerals it's on.

What he said. Provide evidence that all future contact must inherently be violent, or concede. Those are your choices.

Let's addd something more. Technically Na'vi were peacefully going away after the Hometree was destroyed. It's Jake that started the final battle by coming back with a bigger bird (pun intended) to rally up all other Na'vi and asking the Forest Goddess's assistence.

And? It is their property. Taking it is wrong. They are utterly justified in using force to defend it from invaders, either to reclaim it or to obtain justice.

Ehm, so far the Forest Goddess thing did just manage to make a mindless animal charge against the RDA after Jake asked for it. There is no evidence that abovementioned Forest Goddess is responsible of the (claimed) absence of illnesses on Pandora, nor that it is particularly more intelligent than a ant hive's swarm mind (it did less than nothing for more than decades). The fact human illnesses fail to work on alien phisiology/biochemistry does not prove a damn thing.

It did a fucking mind transfer (on alien creatures!) and maintains at least elements of minds long after death. You think it's a fucking ant hive?

I'd also like to know how that piece of crap can "cure" herpes or any other virus that integrates its DNA in the host's without resorting to psionics or arcane magic.

Actually quite easy, if you can decant any life form you please, you can make retrovirii to make a host organism immune to another virus by altering their cell membranes accordingly. There are doubtless many other approaches a being with a few orders of magnitude more brain cells than you and presumably many millennia of experience in manipulating biological life could come up with.

The fact that you can't conceive of how it'd do it is proof that it's rather more sophisticated than an ant hive.

I don't understand why all of you get wrapped up so much with a plant-like planet-wide hive mind that can communicate with animals but is too dumb to coordinate an attack without a blue chimp calling the shots.

Err, did you watch the film? He wasn't "calling the shots" he asked it to scan Grace's memory (ANT HIVE MY FUCKING ASS) and help them not get their ass kicked because the RDA's policies were directly counter to its interests.

Don't be bought by Na'vi religion. That thing is just a (dumb) hive mind. Na'vi idealized it and made it a goddess in their tree-hugging dirt-worshipping religion, but it's not truer than other religions we have on Earth.

Perhaps you missed the scientist characters describing it as something real?

Cameron, the Writer, thinks it's a sapient being. It is depicted as such, and will be in future films.

Anything that can comprehend and contextualize human memories is by default at least as intelligent as a human.

In any case, you have not provided any of the evidence I have demanded, and evaded my actual point. Your concession is accepted.

[jollyreaper]

The no Nuking argument makes sense in the first movie. They don't have the equipment. It's like asking why Reese didn't use an antitank gun on the terminator. Would that be effective? Of course! Would blow it in half. Only problem, he doesn't have one. Doesn't matter if they exist if he can't personally obtain one. May as well suggest using a nuke.

The laser is at earth. Too far away to hit pandora. It boosts the departing starship and slows the arriving one. Antimatter is used to brake at pandora and to head back home. Therefore the ship only needs to carry sufficient fuel for half the journey.

My argument is not from the original movie but the sequel.

1. Earth now knows it's a war, not a police action or a security op.
2. Earth know it's either kick ass or do without.
3. RDA can have the charter changed at any time. No WMD? No problem. Now you can.
4. Return force can have rock droppers.


If the humans want pandora in the sequel, the navi can't do shit.

[jollyreaper]

According to the fluff, ftl coms are hellaciously expensive and send a character an hour or something like that, horrible. Lightpseed is the best you can do. Radio isn't supposed to have great bandwidth so most of the large data is moving by starship.

So the question is whether they can salvage equipment for radio free pandora and if they can get a signal past earthgov jammers. If you need a government rig sensitive enough to pick up the signal, they're effectively embargoed.

So, some of this is a matter of physics and some is a matter of how good futuretech is.

One other factor, people may not trust anything video in the future. You could fake anything. That raises the question of what constitutes proof in the future. Even today Internet experts assert everything they see on YouTube is fake. Shit, the government could release counter-propaganda showing navi dying of venereal diseases brought by Jake. Release on the net, has the same credibility as the stuff from pandora.

[Ahriman238]

I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but given that this is the only Avatar thread currently extant: did anyone else see the film and immediately assume that the Navi, their planet, or both had to be artificial? I understand the danger of "I can't understand it, therefore it's impossible", but still - try as I might, I cannot come up with a way for that kind of setup to develop without intelligent meddling.

It's possible, but it's also a large universe, full of sorts of weird stuff even here on earth. Behold the Pando tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)

True, it doesn't have brains or anything like a recognizable nervous system, but then brains occur in nature all the time, roughly once per animal (slightly less when you average in politicians and internet trolls) and if having such structures is a departure from normal plants, hey, it's an alien ecosystem with alien biology on an alien planet.

[Starglider]

The no Nuking argument makes sense in the first movie. They don't have the equipment.

They didn't need one. They have earth-orbit shuttles, gas-giant fuel stations and antimatter factories. The humans didn't use megaton plus firepower on the home tree because even corrupt corporate executives aren't going to sign that shit off.

The laser is at earth. Too far away to hit pandora. It boosts the departing starship and slows the arriving one.

A laser array capable of focusing terawatts to the relatively small light sail of a starship half a light year away (at the end of the acceleration phase) will have no trouble dumping that energy into a planet a few light years away, but I doubt mildly broiling a few random chunks of landscape will do much anyway.

Antimatter is used to brake at pandora and to head back home. Therefore the ship only needs to carry sufficient fuel for half the journey.

It is stated repeatedly in the fluff that antimatter for the return trip is produced in the destination system. The ship is half-fueled because the laser array does half the work on each trip. Even there the limiting factor is probably not producing or storing the antimatter, it's the reaction mass; carrying enough for both acceleration and decceleration would require a much bigger ship / smaller payload fraction.

1. Earth now knows it's a war, not a police action or a security op.

It isn't a war in any meaningful sense. Not only did the Naavi not declare war on earth and pose no direct physical threat, I'm not clear that they even threaten other mining operations on Pandora. RDA could probably land a new operation (hopefully with better management) on the other side of the planet and carry on with the previous plan.

If the humans want pandora in the sequel, the navi can't do shit.

Absolutely, but even under the assumption that the humans do need the superconductor to maintain their civilisation, I doubt there's a strong enough argument to genocide the Naavi. I mean, if you actually were living in the Avatarverse and all of this was on the news (and FutureWikiLeaks), would you be voting for the party that promised to glass the planet? I am not particularly fond or proud of humanity, but I'm pretty sure we're not going to deliberately become the Independence Day aliens.

So the question is whether they can salvage equipment for radio free pandora and if they can get a signal past earthgov jammers. If you need a government rig sensitive enough to pick up the signal, they're effectively embargoed.

What part of 'the RDA is not the government' are you failing to comprehend? Avatar earth doesn't have a global government anyway, so even if they manage to get co-operation from some nations they certainly won't get all of them to play along.

[Simon_Jester]

One point -- they aren't called hunters, they're called warriors. Warriors implies war and they're not using ceremonial weapons that would make "combat" a sporting event everyone lives through at the end. Their weapons are designed to kill.

So, what kind of warfare do the Na'vi get up to? We never saw anything but this implies they're less ecological mary sues and more like blue Fremen.

So more like us then. The Na'vi are still morally superior to the RDA in the movie even if they were war-like.

I think you miss his point- that the people who ridicule the Na'vi for being absurdly perfect and thus "Mary Sues"* are wrong. I.e. the Na'vi fight among themselves like anyone else, they are more like real(ish) stone agers and less like an extended ecological parable than they are being made out to be by their detractors.

*Is it just me, or has that fanfiction term gotten badly overused? Though I see the need for something like it...

[someone_else]

put in gun drones

As an aside, I would have expected much more robots. It's 22th century damnit.

The hummies don't need a happy biosphere to mine the stuff.

Yes they need it. They need air and food, and Pandora gives them that for free. They don't need anything more than plant lifeforms and simple animal creatures though. Big game can be exterminated without problems.

I'm interested in the sequel but have no idea how a credible conflict can be maintained.

It won't be a credible conflict. Humies will make mistakes that will make everyone scream STUPID!!!! at the screeen.
Not unlike Transformers's "plot" anyway.
It's sad, It could have been something revolutionary and very cool even if Na'vi are card-carrying Trek Aliens.

in fact they don't need to do that at all, they have a long range laser that powers their ships on their outward trips. They could easily direct it at Pandora if they just wanted a killfest.

Please note, laser stations for boosting stuff cannot do that (unless they were designed to do it in the first place, something decuplicates or more the price). They can usually incinerate anything in-system with a continuous heat beam, but 4.6 light years are a little too much for their optics.

A slightly better idea is "Relativistic solar sailers from hell". You boost stuff with a sail and the laser. The stuff doesn't have an engine to slow it down like the interstellar spacecraft. You hit the target at the interstellar cruise speed.
Given that such "cruise speed" is 70% lightspeed for the Venture Star (weighting between 1000 and 10000 tons), you are going to make quite a BOOM.

Anyway, shipping conventinal nukes is more practical in this situation. Relativistic stuff tends to be hard to aim at anything smaller than a planet, and it can make the planet uninhabitable depending on how much crap kicks up, they don't want that as I said above.

Only if we presuppose that the giant tree did not grow that way due to the minerals it's on.

Meh, RDA mined unobtanium for more than 2 decades and they had not nuked a single hometree.

As for the tree, it is likely been grown by Na'vi, using ska’waylu.

They are utterly justified in using force to defend it from invaders, either to reclaim it or to obtain justice.

You should stop thinking in terms of "what is right and what is wrong" and start thinking in terms of "what is effective and what is not" if you want to be victorious and not just die for a just cause.

In this case, violence can only have the adults killed. The elders will then be forced to sell their lands for protection.
Thus violence isn't a tool to reach their objective.
I'd advise a more non-violent Ghandi-like tactic (that worked well in India, to the contrary of native americans in the US).
It would also show that they are really better than us.

It did a fucking mind transfer (on alien creatures!) and maintains at least elements of minds long after death. You think it's a fucking ant hive?

It did a mind transfer on two creatures that shared a very strong bond. Jake was chosen because his brain was similar to his brother's that in turn was the one the Avatar was built around.
Anyway, when I was talking of ant hives I was talking of level of awareness/intelligence.
Mind Transfer does not instantly make you able to manipulate DNA.

There are doubtless many other approaches a being with a few orders of magnitude more brain cells than you and presumably many millennia of experience in manipulating biological life could come up with.

Thare are no proofs it can do that. Nor that it is particularly bright.

He wasn't "calling the shots" he asked it to scan Grace's memory (ANT HIVE MY FUCKING ASS) and help them not get their ass kicked because the RDA's policies were directly counter to its interests.

That was Jake's prayer, what exactly the thing did receive or understand isn't clear.
Its actions speak for it. It came up with a mindless charge of everything it had at its disposal. And it even arrived late into the fight.
That's how ant hives work.

Perhaps you missed the scientist characters describing it as something real?

Grace talked about it being a very big brain connecting the whole flora. Its capabilities were not stated.

Anything that can comprehend and contextualize human memories is by default at least as intelligent as a human.

There is no proof that it had done it.

In any case, you have not provided any of the evidence I have demanded, and evaded my actual point. Your concession is accepted.

Have you read what I wrote to andrewgpaul in the same post? I'm sorry, I tought I have placed a pointer to it in the first answer to you.

You can look at the script of Avatar here.
If you want I can pull out all the relevant stuff, but I'd like more if you go look for yourself.