What If: United States Is Transported Back in Time to 1776?

[Simon_Jester]

So the US sent back in time is sitting on a spring-loaded quake waiting for the go signal, while the 1776-ers suddenly have to deal with the modern air quality, global warming, polluted shore waters and all the stuff. (which doesn't bother them much as the first will very quickly get better, and the second has just pretty much ground to a halt...)

I wonder how much air and sea get taken with them. Do fishing boats just off the coast of 1776!America get transferred? What about John Paul Jones's ship? It's interesting to think that the "stranded US Navy" problem isn't totally one-sided. Will Jones later visit his own dead body in Annapolis? That would be weird.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Exactly when in 1776 is this happening? Because in December, Ben Franklin was in France and if we can get him back to the modern USA he'll probably become the biggest celebrity around.

I can imagine him nailing hollywood starlets by the truckload.

[edaw1982]

Exactly when in 1776 is this happening? Because in December, Ben Franklin was in France and if we can get him back to the modern USA he'll probably become the biggest celebrity around.

I can imagine him nailing hollywood starlets by the truckload.

Especially black hollywood starlets, if the rumours about him shagging his slave-women is to be believed.
Franklin apparently liked the dark meat.

[Simon_Jester]

...You do realize that any 1776 person is going to make an utter, intolerable ass of themselves around black people? Or, for that matter, pretty much anyone 'nonwhite?'

The casual racism and sexism of 1776 Americans in the modern world is going to be their second-biggest handicap in becoming accepted and welcomed by other nations. The biggest is, of course, the outright slavery.

[spaceviking]

I think racism will take a back seat to the foul smell of shitted pants, that will come after 18th century people see an ipod.

[hongi]

Anthropologists and linguists all cream their pants. This is basically a dream come true, we can study societies that are still thriving and healthy.

[Themightytom]

I'm thinking a lot of domestic unrest, among other foreign imports being cut off are drugs, prescription and otherwise.

In the present day, I would kind of expect a feeding frenzy, with mexican drug lords advancing north at frantic pace and Canada advancing south and any aircraft carriers/ military bases FLOCKING home to reclaim territory. I would imagine some sort of military dictatorship existing at first, and an entirely different United States evolving over time. The US would have a ton of timber, minerals and potential crop land.

[Crossroads Inc.]

All I have to say is, for those few American's left in modern day, how awesome it would be for the glorfied Founding fathers to look around and say:
'Well shoot, what he had lanned to write will never cover everything new, we need to re-write the constitution" and then watch the remnants of America go insane over the concept of that.

[Simon_Jester]

Crossroads, at best they'd be saying that with an eye to rewriting the Articles of Confederation...

[Broomstick]

They did, in fact, rewrite the Articles of Confederation.... that's how we got the Constitution. With a history of how their efforts worked out, they might do a better job the third time around.

[Ahriman238]

Yes, but modern Americans could get pretty testy over the idea of tampering with or improving upon the Constitution, the basis of our law for 200 years.

We may eventually have to have largely seperate tracts of country for everyone, or exist as 2 nations, because it will be really, really, hard for 18th and 21st Century americans to relate to each other, or live under the laws of the other.

[Darth Yoshi]

Yes, but modern Americans could get pretty testy over the idea of tampering with or improving upon the Constitution, the basis of our law for 200 years.

It could go either way, I think. On the one hand, it's the Founders. They've been practically deified, and lots of people think they can do no wrong. Who better than to change the Constitution than the people who originally created it? On the other hand, they've been practically deified, and they're pretty much guaranteed to fall short of the image people today have of them.

[LaCroix]

Yes, but modern Americans could get pretty testy over the idea of tampering with or improving upon the Constitution, the basis of our law for 200 years.

We may eventually have to have largely seperate tracts of country for everyone, or exist as 2 nations, because it will be really, really, hard for 18th and 21st Century americans to relate to each other, or live under the laws of the other.

Well, the main opinion is that only the funding fathers have a right to do this, so I guess they'd be fine with it, right?

Yes the interaction between both societies will be awkward, for both sides, especially since the 21th cent guys don't have any infrastructure left and will have to rebuild everything while trying to teach the Ancients. Misunderstandings will run rampant, just by different meanings certain words have. Just immagine what could happen when someone is having some drinks with a random Marine and calls him gay...

And there's always the yucky problem of aquiring carnal knowledge of an ancestor...

[Chirios]

And there's always the yucky problem of aquiring carnal knowledge of an ancestor...

Sort of. I mean, technically speaking you're quite a few generations removed from the ancestor.

[Todeswind]

Hey... what about viruses? Either way this goes the modern USA finds itself tossed into a bunch of diseases like smallpox and polio that we aren't currently equipped to deal with on a global scale. For that matter the 1776 USA is practically a germ factory in and of itself.

[Broomstick]

The science of halting and dealing with a smallpox outbreak isn't forgotten, and we still have the vaccine. Any smallpox in the 1776 landmass will be quickly dealt with. Likewise the various other diseases. It's not that large a population, and they don't, at least initially, have access to modern transportation. We'll introduce them to antibiotics and give 'em all their shots.

[General Mung Beans]

If the USA fractures under the pressure, then there would be several superpowers, focussed in north america. These would be much easier for the powers of the time to handle (though still very very dangerous) because they would have to tie up significant resources to defend themselves against each other.

The US will almost certainly not fracture considering due to the energy trouble the government is going to impose WWII level of social and economic controls. The only countries that would fracture from being time-travelled are those dependent on foreign aid for the government to survive.

[KrauserKrauser]

This sounds like a fun RAR to spend a few minutes ruminating on.

So, modern day America is ported back to 1776? Pax Americana 170 years early it is.

Social Changes:

Instant pandemonium once word gets out. Martial law would likely be declared and eventually things would calm down a bit. Might take 6 months to a year to get everyone settled but we Americans are a complacent bunch given the right circumstances. If they can keep the Reality TV flowing and pull from the SPR to keep the roads open, the populace will likely be very compliant. Religious implications and claims would abound but I doubt it would spark any large faith movement.

Once the full implications of the switch are allowed to sink in there will be immediate calls for the Navy and Marines to eliminate the Slave Trade in the Carribean. A small destroyer would be able to take down just about anything the 1776 navies could send at it. The bow gun would be able to tear the ships apart before they even knew what hit them. There will be instances of slavers dumping their slaves when the Navy shows up but eventually we would be able to eliminate or drastically reduce the slave trade in the Americas. Convincing the colonists that slaves = people too will likely require armed insurrections but enormous wealth and technological advantage would work in our favor to convince them of the benefits of disallowing slavery.

Cutbacks in oil consumption will drastically cutback the feasibility of commuting via car. Bicycles will be a growth industry and likely many would feel stranded in the suburbs and want to move to the city centers. Increased urbanization and abandonment of the suburbs is a likely outcome.

Confronting Challenges:

The main challenge is going to be finding oil and getting it to the refineries. Oil is still a mystery substance in 1776 and there would be no infrastructure to get it moving. Building the infrastructure will take time and energy that the country will have to be able to spare to continue to operate. The SPR and domestic production along with martial law enforced usage limitations would provide at best a year at the very best.

This immediate need along with the slave trade will be a large impetus to start the Pax Americana and going into Mexico. IIRC 1776 Mexico is still a Spanish territory so any hostile actions will likely trigger potential hostility with Spain. Mad Dash for all of the rich wells in Mexico should be the nation's #1 priority if it plans on maintaing anything near the current living standards. Luckily somethings will not deteriorate. Germ Theory will still be known. Anti Biotics will still work.

Would we be able to get oil from Mexico to the refineries in time? Possibly but it would likely be a close call. Setting up harbors for tankers is out of the question and building pipelines will take too long. Trucking it in will be very wasteful but doable and rail would be the ultimate goal. The US economy runs on oil like no other and oil will be in drastically reduced supply. Remove the off shore oil rigs that may fall in international waters and we lose even more domestic production.

Mexican oil and Canadian oil will have to sustain the country for quite some time as the Ottoman's have nothing nearing the infrastructure necessary to handle an Oil tanker and it would likely take years to set up drilling in the Persian Gulf ignoring the difficulty of transporting once drilled.

Other Changes:

The markets would have to be suspended. They would likely dip and hit the circuit breakers if they were open at the time but they would likely be closed indefinitely as martial law takes effect. Price controls will abound and rationing will be extreme. No more cheap electronics from Asia and no more raw materials from all over the world. Commodities would not be allowed to trade freely for quite some time due to price controls. Entire companies will get torn to shreds from this change. It would be chaos and blood baths in the markets for most of the year.

Upstate New York would likely go dark and the New York power grid would be hurt from the loss of the Niagra power plant which IIRC is located on the Canadian side and would therefore not come along for the ride. Good luck replacing that any time soon.

More as I think of it.

[Simon_Jester]

This immediate need along with the slave trade will be a large impetus to start the Pax Americana and going into Mexico. IIRC 1776 Mexico is still a Spanish territory so any hostile actions will likely trigger potential hostility with Spain. Mad Dash for all of the rich wells in Mexico should be the nation's #1 priority if it plans on maintaing anything near the current living standards...

Do remember that you can simply bribe the Spanish, if worst comes to worst. This is the era of the Louisiana Purchase; colonial powers will sell their land for big enough considerations.

Giving them a big chunk of the gold in Fort Knox and twenty thousand M-16s in exchange for Mexico would almost certainly work, and it would probably actually be cheaper than trying to occupy the country without the consent of the governed.

Giving them a smaller chunk of gold and one thousand M-16s for the specific bits of Mexico we'd need would be a lot easier, though.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Of course, they'd probably also give us mexico if we had a flight of F-22's buzz Madrid at mach 3 200 feet off the ground.

[Simon_Jester]

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, Chewie. Domination by intimidation only works as long as you can keep everyone too primitive and helpless to resist you, then they remember what a prick you were back when you had the edge. Buying people's stuff, now that endures.

If all you want are oil rights, there's no good reason not to treat honorably and fairly with the official owner of the land, not when said owner places such a low value on oil that they'll happily sell the rights for much less than those rights are worth to you.

[PeZook]

The purchase will probably be a combination of intimidation and proper bribery, though, because it's not like you can help it if your smallest ships dwarf anything the Spanish could imagine building. You have to send the ambassadors on something, after all

But you don't need to outright threaten the Spanish for that effect to work its magic. Just...show up. Bring a freighter. Watch people shit bricks and be incredibly relieved when they learn you came to deal with them in good faith.

[Simon_Jester]

We have a winner.

As a reward, I hereby declare that transplanted modern USA will attempt to prevent the Second Partition from taking place in Pezookistan.

[Rabid]

Random question, RE : equipping a civilian cargo with armament :

Would this thing (30mm autocannon w/ rof of 650 RPM), gyro-stabilized and loaded with explosive/incendiary munitions would be able to curbstomp a warship of the time, or would you need a bigger caliber to obtain decisive results ?

I thought about putting an M777 on a Cargo, but I fear that its accuracy would be shit if the weather is even a bit movemented.


Alternatively, would it be easy to put one of those on a civilian vessel ?

[PeZook]

Dude, a pair of .50 cals with white phosphorous rounds, and you win

Or a simple korean war era 75mm gun. You will outdo any contemporary naval vessel by a factor of five or more when it comes to range, and accuracy isn't that much of an issue. Hell, a modern freighter could just...not engage. It's not like sailing ships would be able to enforce a blockade when the traders can just sail out of port against the wind doing a steady 15 knots.