Alien mecha designs

[Ford Prefect]

We're kind of getting away from the topic here, but guys Zinegata is giving you all a pretty off-base impression of the communications issues, which are not really the substantially important aspects of Minovsky particle interference.

[jollyreaper]

At least Gundam is trying to rationalize the whole giant robot thing. Only part I'm not sure on, they are using the same humanoid models to fight in space and on the ground, only later making dedicated ground units?

That strikes me about as funny as with macross where they tried to have some realism along with the giant alien clones. The robot fighters could descend from orbit to the atmosphere but could not make orbit under their own power. They either needed a big booster rocket from a dedicated launch pad or these later giant booster packs used for the armored veritech.

Old macross tried to use conventional tech, nukes and jet engines, I forget which ones the valkyries used. When they went robotech the fighters became veritech and were powered by magic protoculture. Since the performance is arbitrary, why not say they can make orbit on their own?

Needless to say, it's interesting to imagine the technical difficulties of building a machine good at combat across such divergent environments. It's like trying to make a good flying submarine or submersible aircraft. Hell, simple float fighters were at a disadvantage vs wheeled fighters.

I wonder what kind of magic power source you'd need to make a giant robot capable of lifting from a planetary surface to orbit without also being a giant fuel tank. Just flying could be done with some of fusion-heated jet engine. To make orbit? It would need reactionless thrusters. The only other way is super-pumps that could compress enough air into super-tanks and use that as reaction mass and get up to 50k feet as an air-breather and go to pure rocket after that.

It would probably be more plausible to just say it can teleport with a portable wormhole generator!

[Gunhead]

I think that's kind of the point. Without modern-ish communications you're thrown back to slower, more hamhanded tactics. Especially on the offensive; you can set up laser transponders and landlines in good positions to cover your own rear area, but you can't set them in enemy territory to coordinate when you're attacking.

It still works- it just puts you closer to World War One combat conditions than real life conditions.

And if someone can step in with fast, extremely powerful armored vehicles that concentrate a tank company's firepower into a small chassis, this makes them a lot more dangerous than they would be in real life. Because as you note, without communications the individual tank commanders are working just on what they see, and unless you form them up into phalanxes they don't all see the same enemy at the same time. If that one enemy can easily overpower any one or two of the tanks, then you have a problem because you're asking to be defeated in detail.


Picture what would happen to a bunch of WWII Sherman tanks without radios fighting a single T-54. The T-54's advantage in firepower and survivability would let it take on any one of the Shermans pretty easily. And coordinating tightly enough to allow many of the Shermans shots into the T-54's flanks or rear would be hard without communications.

Yeah I get the idea, but we're still far from WWI. Reliable and wide spread motorized transport allows swift communication by comparison to WWI equivalents. We can carry a ton of data on a single USB drive or similar. etc. etc. Tactical communication becomes harder but this means you have to more rely on pre agreed tactics and vehicle density will increase as commands like "Shoot at what I'm shooting" will be given by a burst of tracers from the command vehicle and the rest just follow his lead and so on. To put another slant on the example you put forth. Say there's two T54s fighting several shermans, if the shermans already know where the T54 but can goad them to into separating, the shermans can increase their chances by drawing one into an ambush while the rest keep the other occupied. Neither side having a reliable way of communicating instantaneously does cause this odd "double blind" situation where overall situational awareness of both sides is severely hampered. More so in any sort of tactical situation.

-Gunhead

[Zinegata]

We're kind of getting away from the topic here, but guys Zinegata is giving you all a pretty off-base impression of the communications issues, which are not really the substantially important aspects of Minovsky particle interference.

Nothing I said about the comms issue was wrong; the only wrong bit again is the "also affects circuitry" portion.

Gunhead / Simon->

Let me demonstrate by example how devastating the comms blackout issue is for the Gundam world.

The protagonists of the series are based on a carrier called the White Base, which can travel through the atmosphere thanks to Minovsky magic. For most of the early part of the series, the White Base was earmarked to do a series of raids behind enemy lines, mainly in the Central Asia region.

By the middle of the series, the Federation decides to launch a grand ground offensive, and high command wants to add White Base to the attack force.

How do they tell the White Base that it's time to get off raiding duty and join a big offensive? Not by radio. Not by telephone. By messenger.

Essentially, they asked a poor schmuck to travel all over Central Asia to find the White Base, and then tell them in person that it was time to join the Odessa offensive. The messenger almost died before giving the message (and if I recall right he died right after giving it), showing just how lucky the White Base was to get the message at all.

While motor transport can certainly help messengers be more efficient than a Civil War runner (no transport), you have to remember that they were fighting a war on a continent-wide scale. Guys in Europe Command can't contact guys in Asia Command easily. This is why the Federation ends up mainly concentrating their forces around specific bases with their own production facilities (Jaburo, Madras, Belfast), while leaving most of the rest of the world a giant no-man's land.

Moreover, there's the speed issue: You can't reliably call in arty without a radio. By the time the runner gets to the battery the targetting coordinates are no longer relevant.

[Zinegata]

At least Gundam is trying to rationalize the whole giant robot thing. Only part I'm not sure on, they are using the same humanoid models to fight in space and on the ground, only later making dedicated ground units?

This is correct. The original Mobile Suits (Zaku I and Zaku II) were space fighters, fighting for the Principality of Zeon which was a cluster of O'Neill Space colonies (no Earth presence at all, but strong ties with the Lunar Cities). They were pressed into the ground combat role after the Federation refused to surrender despite the annihilation of their space fleet, and Zeon was forced to invade Earth. The first dedicated ground Mobile Suit was a MS-06 Zaku II J, which was essentially just a Zaku II with the space-relevant gear removed plus a few extra features for ground combat.

Most of these early models performed decently, but not spectacularly well. One major reason being that Zeon had no testing facility to try out ground-combat Mobile Suits before the war. However, after capturing a number of Federation ground and naval bases on Earth, they rapidly began developing dedicated ground-combat and even underwater combat Mobile Suits.

As an extra bit of trivia, the next-generation ground combat Mobile Suit was basically chosen after two rival companies (Zeonic and Zimmand, ala Porsche vs Herschel) developed their own respective models. Zeonic created the MS-07 Gouf which was meant to be a flight-capable suit (but never really achieved this lofty goal), while Zimmand created the MS-09 Dom which uses hover tech to achieve 300+ kph speeds.

Needless to say, it's interesting to imagine the technical difficulties of building a machine good at combat across such divergent environments. It's like trying to make a good flying submarine or submersible aircraft. Hell, simple float fighters were at a disadvantage vs wheeled fighters

There is actually a fair bit of consistency in Gundam regarding this: A Zaku II J for instance can't really even fight in space. Neither can a Dom, albeit its chassis was later modded into a space-capable variant known as the Rick Dom (replacing the "hover" legs with high performance space thrusters). Only a handful of high-power prototypes (i.e. Gundams) can operate across many environments.

Naval Mobile Suits also have their own special rules: Limited amphibious capability, but thanks to water cooling they can be equipped with heavy beam weapons.

I wonder what kind of magic power source you'd need to make a giant robot capable of lifting from a planetary surface to orbit without also being a giant fuel tank. Just flying could be done with some of fusion-heated jet engine. To make orbit? It would need reactionless thrusters. The only other way is super-pumps that could compress enough air into super-tanks and use that as reaction mass and get up to 50k feet as an air-breather and go to pure rocket after that.

It would probably be more plausible to just say it can teleport with a portable wormhole generator!

Mobile Suits generally cannot go from Earth to space on their own. However, powerful warships and later Mobile Suits (80+ years after the initial version) could be equipped with a Minovsky craft system which allows them to fly thanks to Minovsky magic.

[Zinegata]

I think that's kind of the point. Without modern-ish communications you're thrown back to slower, more hamhanded tactics. Especially on the offensive; you can set up laser transponders and landlines in good positions to cover your own rear area, but you can't set them in enemy territory to coordinate when you're attacking.

Speaking of these tactics, this is why I mentioned the Battle of Odessa in the comms blackout summary. It was about the only time the Federation's conventional ground forces won against Zeon Mobile Suits, and it's precisely because it was a head-on slugging match.

In earlier campaigns, Zeon Mobile Suits tended to suddenly pop out of nowhere - blitzkrieg style - which constantly caught the Federation defenders off balance. This was made worse by Zeon space superiority which allowed them to insert troops at ill from unexpected directions.

[Stark]

The EFF fought from France to Ukraine. I'm going out on a limb and imagining they won plenty of battles. Your view of Gundam seems to be a peculiarly narrow one.

[Zinegata]

The EFF fought from France to Ukraine. I'm going out on a limb and imagining they won plenty of battles. Your view of Gundam seems to be a peculiarly narrow one.

I said "about the only time", not "the only time" and it's certainly the only major battle we know of that they did win.

So how about enough of the pointless sniping, trolling, and bullshit? Fuck off unless you have something to actually contribute other than "I think Zine's full of shit because I am more awesome! Make fun of him!"

[Stark]

Do you think pointing out that by Odessa the EFF had pushed the Zeon military out of most of Asia and Europe and thus maybe had military success against them is 'pointless' 'sniping' and 'trolling'? Odessa was clearly the climax of a successful campaign. It seems clear to me that once Zeon ran out of momentum and the EFF developed effective tactics and recovered their morale they did fine.

[Zinegata]

Do you think pointing out that by Odessa the EFF had pushed the Zeon military out of most of Asia and Europe and thus maybe had military success against them is 'pointless' 'sniping' and 'trolling'? Odessa was clearly the climax of a successful campaign. It seems clear to me that once Zeon ran out of momentum and the EFF developed effective tactics and recovered their morale they did fine.

So, to justify your sniping and trolling you're now claiming "Odessa was actually multiple battles and what we saw on screen was just the climax of the campaign. The Federation had already conquered Europe and Asia by this point".

Which isn't your original claim (They must've won lots of battles!), but let's let it pass because you're still dead wrong and it makes you an even bigger idiot.

Check the timeline again (http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc ... eline.html ):

U.C. 0079.11.07

In Eastern Europe, the Federation Forces launch Operation Odessa. [Mobile Suit Gundam, episode 25]

U.C. 0079.11.09

Operation Odessa ends in victory for the Federation. From Europe through Asia, the Principality of Zeon's fighting power begins to collapse.

The exact opposite is what happened. The Federation fought Odessa, won it, and that caused Zeon to lose control of Asia and Europe. Because again: The Gundam ground war revolved around control of bases. Lose the big bases, and your little outposts collapse

Again Stark, fuck off. You tried to play more games, except you were too stupid to realize I said "about the only victory" as opposed to "only victory". Then you backpedalled into claiming the exact opposite of what really happened. Stop pretending this isn't more of your bullshit games.

[Ford Prefect]

Man, chill out, seriously. How would the Federation even get the absurdly vast forces involved in Operation Odessa to Eastern Europe if not as part of a wider campaign? The timeline isn't comprehensive; there's a whole month between the Garma Funeral speech and the launch of the assault on Odessa. There's a wide, implied scope which is only glimpsed in some side-materials.

[Gunhead]

Gunhead / Simon->

Let me demonstrate by example how devastating the comms blackout issue is for the Gundam world.

The protagonists of the series are based on a carrier called the White Base, which can travel through the atmosphere thanks to Minovsky magic. For most of the early part of the series, the White Base was earmarked to do a series of raids behind enemy lines, mainly in the Central Asia region.

By the middle of the series, the Federation decides to launch a grand ground offensive, and high command wants to add White Base to the attack force.

How do they tell the White Base that it's time to get off raiding duty and join a big offensive? Not by radio. Not by telephone. By messenger.

Essentially, they asked a poor schmuck to travel all over Central Asia to find the White Base, and then tell them in person that it was time to join the Odessa offensive. The messenger almost died before giving the message (and if I recall right he died right after giving it), showing just how lucky the White Base was to get the message at all.

While motor transport can certainly help messengers be more efficient than a Civil War runner (no transport), you have to remember that they were fighting a war on a continent-wide scale. Guys in Europe Command can't contact guys in Asia Command easily. This is why the Federation ends up mainly concentrating their forces around specific bases with their own production facilities (Jaburo, Madras, Belfast), while leaving most of the rest of the world a giant no-man's land.

Moreover, there's the speed issue: You can't reliably call in arty without a radio. By the time the runner gets to the battery the targetting coordinates are no longer relevant.

So federation high command are all idiots who cannot fathom their own communication limitations? If having White base is so critical to the attack, you time the attack so you can reliably issue orders to it. Sending one guy to try and find it is basically going on a wing and a prayer. Option two is going on with the attack without White Base and hope they get the message in time to join with the rest. Great distances without radio communication causes comm lag and make it very periodic, that's it. What you seem to take as a "ZOMG HOW DIFFICULT", is just a issue of planning and coordination to me. And seriously?? Just one guy?? And you do realize motorized transport does include things like planes, which would be pretty much vital for maintaining communication lines over great distances, double so if they can't draw a land line to each other.

Moreover, you're wrong. I already told you what it would take to use arty without a radio. The runner doesn't need to run all the way to the battery, He needs to get to the nearest communication line i.e phone that delivers his message to it. All of it just means the artillery cannot be too far off from the troops it is supposed to be supporting. This type of setup would be totally inadequate against a force that did have radio communication, but since no one has reliable radio communication the tempo of battle is way slower. I could go on about the negative effects lacking a radio has to use of tactical indirect fire. But I won't as it's not really relevant to this discussion.

-Gunhead

[Zinegata]

How would the Federation even get the absurdly vast forces involved in Operation Odessa to Eastern Europe if not as part of a wider campaign? The timeline isn't comprehensive; there's a whole month between the Garma Funeral speech and the launch of the assault on Odessa. There's a wide, implied scope which is only glimpsed in some side-materials.

Firstly, the side materials imply there weren't a lot of battles before the Federation got to Eastern Europe. Mark's unofficial timeline is here:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php

And the relevant entries pre-battle are here:

U.C. 0079.10.11 02:50 General Revil's forces cross the Strait of Dover. The Federation Forces begin their advance toward Odessa.
* Source: Entertainment Bible 39.

U.C. 0079.10.12 The Federation Forces send two naval fleets southward from Oslo, Norway to divert the Principality's submarine fleets.
* Source: Entertainment Bible 39.

U.C. 0079.10.20 The Federation's ground forces arrive at their assembly point in Warsaw, Poland, and establish a field headquarters.
* Source: Entertainment Bible 39.

U.C. 0079.10.25 The Federation Forces confirm the final details of Operation Odessa. Decoy forces are dispatched to various points to camouflage the attack target.
* Source: Entertainment Bible 39. This is presumably the point at which the Lost War Chronicles video game begins.

U.C. 0079.11.02 Federation forces participating in Operation Odessa receive air reinforcements.
* Source: Entertainment Bible 39. This may be an oblique reference to the deployment of the G-Fighter and the Core Booster, worded vaguely enough to apply to both the television series and the movie continuity.

U.C. 0079.11.07 The Principality of Zeon sends two submarine fleets northward to divert the Federation Forces deployed for Operation Odessa.
* Source: Gundam Officials.

04:00 The Black Tri-Stars attack the White Base. Matilda Ajan's supply corps completes its repairs and the ship returns to the air.
(Mobile Suit Gundam episode 24)
* Source: Gundam Officials.

06:00 The Federation Forces launch Operation Odessa. The Federation's forces begin their advance and begin deploying aircraft.

And the basic story is that the Federation was essentially able to reach its main staging areas without mention of any major battles. There is no "Battle for Warsaw" for instance; there's just the Federation reaching it and immediately setting up an HQ.

Part of it was due to misdirection (i.e. sending fleets to Norway), but also because of the very low troop densities employed by both sides. The White Base and the Gundam habitually encounter Zeon "bases" whose only garrison are a mere 2-4 Mobile Suits.

Secondly, the main point anyway isn't that Odessa was "about the only" victory of large scale conventional ground forces (tanks, arty, aircraft) winning against Mobile Suits (afterwards, Federation ground victories had extensive Mobile Suit support; at Odessa they were only present in limited numbers).

The main point is that conventional ground forces only achieved major victory in a battle which was essentially a straight-up slugging match. If you're deprived good radio comms, then you're forced to revert back to WW1-style pre-arranged fire plans instead of a more responsive fire support network. In a fast-moving battle, the former isn't great. But in a set-piece slugging match, dropping a couple hundred tons of arty shells and bombs on the Zeon frontlines is just fine.

[Stark]

Unofficial timelines and people who misunderstand minkovski interference aside, the actual Gundam shows and movies show radio and other communication working fine, certainly over dozens of kilometers, even in the OYW itself. The assault on Odessa was preceeded by a march across all of Europe and through the Middle East, and Zeon commanders were aware they were doomed before the campaign was even launched.



I don't want to give anyone a stroke here, but I invite people to listen less to Mr Gundam Project and look to the actual shows themselves, before forming judgements about how the universe works.

[Zinegata]

So federation high command are all idiots who cannot fathom their own communication limitations? If having White base is so critical to the attack, you time the attack so you can reliably issue orders to it.

First of all, I used an extreme case to demonstrate the difficulties of the limited comms situation. The Federation did also issue orders to the White Base by sending an air transport (it happened in North America), and when they got close enough to Odessa they started using laser / radio comms.

However, again: the reason they used a messenger in this case was because the other methods were impossible. Radio? Sorry, Minovksy interference prevents it. Aircraft? Sorry, but the White Base is deep behind enemy lines and possibly outside the range of existing air bases. We really have to send one guy in a truck, hope he evades detection, and deliver a message to one of our carriers.

Moreover, you're wrong. I already told you what it would take to use arty without a radio. The runner doesn't need to run all the way to the battery, He needs to get to the nearest communication line i.e phone that delivers his message to it.

Read up a little on the FIrst World War. Telephone lines get cut. A lot. Especially on the attack.

In fact, it is virtually a guaranteee that as soon as a battalion leaves its trenches, it will lose all contact with high command. The telephone wire they drag across no-man's land will get cut. The runners they send back over no man's land will generally get lost or killed. There was almost zero ability of World War 1 armies to get their frontline troops to talk directly with the arty, and it's not for lack of trying.

On the defense, it's better but that's also reflected somewhat in Gundam - the ONLY secure facilities for both Zeon and Federation are large sprawling bases - who presumably have their own extensive hardwire comms networks.

Laser comms should be less prone to this (it's a murky tech), but again they're limited to LOS and I haven't seen any man-portable version.

[Zinegata]

Unofficial timelines and people who misunderstand minkovski interference aside, the actual Gundam shows and movies show radio and other communication working fine, certainly over dozens of kilometers, even in the OYW itself.

Laser comms. Already covered and mentioned in the first post, and it's even in the original setting notes.

So stop pretending that this isn't you ignoring what I actually said to troll again.

The assault on Odessa was preceeded by a march across all of Europe and through the Middle East, and Zeon commanders were aware they were doomed before the campaign was even launched.

Hey, idiot, we already know there's a "march". But you're claiming that there were actual BIG BATTLES before Odessa.

In fact, your graphic shows the Zeon perimeter (red areas) shrinking even before the arrows (Federation troops) get to them. So far from showing the Federation "winning" battles on the way to Odessa, all you've shown is them marching to Odessa without a fight.

So again, stop pretending this isn't just you covering your ass yet again because of yet another failed snark attempt. You aren't even attempting to address the main point - Odessa was won by the Feds using conventional weapons because it was a slug fest.

I don't want to give anyone a stroke here, but I invite people to listen less to Mr Gundam Project and look to the actual shows themselves, before forming judgements about how the universe works.

And Stark, everyone knows your entire miserable life is based on being a snark over things you don't like. Fuck off if you have a problem with the older series, because for someone who claims to "watch the actual shows" it seems you haven't watched anything but MS IGLOO or any Gundam that isn't 3D.

[Ford Prefect]

In fact, your graphic shows the Zeon perimeter (red areas) shrinking even before the arrows (Federation troops) get to them.

The map shows areas under the exclusive control of the Zekes (red), areas under the exclusive control of the Feddies (grey), and areas which are contested (yellow). It's clearly a lot more complex than you're trying to present and, frankly, not remotely contradicted by the original show, the movie trilogy, or indeed basically any side materials you might care to mention.

[Zinegata]

In fact, your graphic shows the Zeon perimeter (red areas) shrinking even before the arrows (Federation troops) get to them.

The map shows areas under the exclusive control of the Zekes (red), areas under the exclusive control of the Feddies (grey), and areas which are contested (yellow). It's clearly a lot more complex than you're trying to present and, frankly, not remotely contradicted by the original show, the movie trilogy, or indeed basically any side materials you might care to mention.

You claim its more complex, and yet you somehow miss that at 1:10 they actually do a close-up map of the main battle of Odessa itself. And there they show the Federation arrows directly in contact with the Zeon zones (red areas), and even shows Zeon units / outposts being obliterated. As opposed to the earlier graphic, where the red areas are shrinking way ahead of the Federation forces indicating that the Zeeks are probably just running without contesting anything?

So again, where are these supposed "big battles" on the way to Odessa, as opposed to it simply Zeon doing a quick withdrawal? How does it actually contest the main point, which is that the Battle of Odessa represents about the only major victory (as opposed to "large uncontested advances") that involved conventional weapons due to it being a slug fest (which the graphic also supports)? It doesn't; it's just more pointless sniping and trolling.

I'd be far less incensed if you actually post relevant stuff like this:



Which is the newer version of the Odessa battle, which now has a lot more Mobile Suits on the Federation side (The Federation are using the twin-barrel tanks with the "Green screen" head mechas. Zeon is using the single-barrel tanks with the mono-eyes), as opposed to this:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... force.jpeg

Which was the old depiction of the battle in the original series, with lots of tanks (the blue boxes), arty, aircraft, and a couple of Big Tray land battleships (the big yellow thing) but no real Mobile Suit support.

But hey, continue wasting your time arguing over a tangent that Stark's just using for his pointless sniping.

[Gunhead]

First of all, I used an extreme case to demonstrate the difficulties of the limited comms situation. The Federation did also issue orders to the White Base by sending an air transport (it happened in North America), and when they got close enough to Odessa they started using laser / radio comms.

However, again: the reason they used a messenger in this case was because the other methods were impossible. Radio? Sorry, Minovksy interference prevents it. Aircraft? Sorry, but the White Base is deep behind enemy lines and possibly outside the range of existing air bases. We really have to send one guy in a truck, hope he evades detection, and deliver a message to one of our carriers.

White Base is a mobile platform and even if it's deep behind enemy lines it should have periodic known stops where it can communicate to HQ and vice versa. This has been a standard practise I think from WWII onwards at least. If you absolutely HAVE to go looking for it, you don't send one guy. You send several as one guy can get killed / incapacitated by a simple accident or similar mishap even if the enemy does nothing.

Read up a little on the FIrst World War. Telephone lines get cut. A lot. Especially on the attack.

In fact, it is virtually a guaranteee that as soon as a battalion leaves its trenches, it will lose all contact with high command. The telephone wire they drag across no-man's land will get cut. The runners they send back over no man's land will generally get lost or killed. There was almost zero ability of World War 1 armies to get their frontline troops to talk directly with the arty, and it's not for lack of trying.

On the defense, it's better but that's also reflected somewhat in Gundam - the ONLY secure facilities for both Zeon and Federation are large sprawling bases - who presumably have their own extensive hardwire comms networks.

Laser comms should be less prone to this (it's a murky tech), but again they're limited to LOS and I haven't seen any man-portable version.

Yeah but this, as I said is not WWI. I don't NEED to run the line over to the troops in the front. I can move the message by foot, motorcycle, truck, car, apc or by air if I want to. In addition to having capability to run wire all over the place in timescales WWI could only dream of. I can have my phone line to the battery start 2000m behind my lines and I can still reach it in case my main line to the battery is cut. Hell I could make a tank that has a sole purpose of making new telephone line. What you don't seem to grasp is the fact that even without radio communication, motorized transport allows for rapid movement of troops and information thus making any sort of WWI style scenario unlikely.
Most likely there would be a huge impetus to switch from towed artillery to self propelled allowing the artillery to follow the spearhead close up to ease communication.
The other thing likely to happen is artillery use would be something starting at company level rather than platoon level we can do today.
And the laser comm systems don't need to be man portable, that is what we have vehicles for. If men on foot can move it, that's a plus but not an absolute requirement.

-Gunhead

[Stark]

Which is the newer version of the Odessa battle

This is your problem right here. It seems like, starting from your position of assumed knowledge from 15 years ago, you think things have 'changed' when there is not necessarily conflict in the sources. Igloo shows some GMs active in the lead up to Odessa; so what? There were millions of troops involved, and we already knew some robits were used there. It also shows new super guntanks present, and nobody claims they were a significant factor in the battle, because we're only shown one small perspective on probably the largest ground battle in history.

Just to remind you, I never said anything about 'big battles'. I merely said, in response to your claim that Odessa itself was

about the only time the Federation's conventional ground forces won against Zeon Mobile Suits

that

The EFF fought from France to Ukraine. I'm going out on a limb and imagining they won plenty of battles

Now it seems that from discussions you had in highschool, you don't want to hear this, and that's fine. That's why I encourage people to actually watch the shows, where we see the EFF driving across Europe and compressing the Zeon forces in the area around Odessa. I think it's pretty unlikely they'd be able to do this (and sweep most of Europe clear at the same time) if they couldn't win any battles.

The idea that the EFF could only gain victory with WWI-style pre-planned artillery barrages or whatever the fuck you're talking about when they just advanced thousands of miles is pretty strange to me. Igloo also shows the artillery is rapid fire and counter-fire between mobile land battleships so... just like WWI?

[Connor MacLeod]

regarding watching the series: As a newcomer to Gundam, is there a suggested series that one should begin watching? I was thinking of just starting from the beginning iwth Mobile Suit Gundam, but I'm not sure if the Chronology is linear or not. Or hell, even if it matters.

[Jub]

It depends on what you like, each series brings something different to the table. I enjoyed the 08th team series and the Gundam Wing Movies, but I find that original series hard to get into (I enjoyed the novelization though).

[Stark]

If you're going to watch MSG, watch the movie trilogy version. But yeah, there's all different stuff: just bear in mind only the 'Universal Century' shows are being talked about here. 0083 is Top Gun, War in the Pocket is slice 0f life, 0096 is cel-shaded supremacy, etc. There's not a strong requirement of continuity and few characters cross over.

I don't think you really need to know more than the broad strokes to enjoy any show. My wife didn't bat an eye at the psychic ghosts in Unicorn, for instance. Just remember the war in 0079 was the most destructive in history and that the hate and fear it created drives drama for the rest of the century and you'll be fine. The first thing I watch was Igloo, which many fans hate because of its ropey animation and perceived inaccuracies, but it's accessible space WW2 stuff. My recommendation would be start with something short - Unicorn, 0083, Igloo, etc - and see if you like it. Bear in mind that the times they were made definitely impact the style and that the message is 'war sucks' and see how you go.

[Ford Prefect]

regarding watching the series: As a newcomer to Gundam, is there a suggested series that one should begin watching? I was thinking of just starting from the beginning iwth Mobile Suit Gundam, but I'm not sure if the Chronology is linear or not. Or hell, even if it matters.

There's no real need to watch it in order: Stark didn't and he thinks it owns. I've started a lot of people off with the MSG compilation trilogy. Previously I thought that would be hard to get into (because it's really 70s), but so far it's worked well. If you keep in mind that there's going to be some stylistic weirdness, and the films do attempt to cut that down, then you'll probably be drawn in by the drama.

[Stark]

I actually think watching it out of chronology made some of it better; I saw Igloo first, which shows the Delaz fleet leaving, but I only learned of the significance of this when I saw 0083, and this was given more context when I saw the MSG movies. I saw 0083 after Zeta, and the (intentional) way it shows how the Federation moved from the OYW to the situation at the start of Zeta was awesome and totally unplanned by the creators of Zeta. Bask Om is always great.

And that's about the extent of continuity between the series - they rarely start or stop in connected places, so they're not one single huge narrative. Unicorn is based on a conspiracy that informs the entire Universal Century, and its based on nothing in the older shows and they just made it up for Unicorn in such as way as it fits around and supports the previous shows. Nobody ever drops Pavlovs gun on the Moon and has it found later by the current teenage hero. The stories each stand alone, simply with a common backdrop.

And before anyone forgets, don't watch any of the dubs. They're appalling, and so terrible they take Unicorn from probably the best scifi I've seen in a decade to awkward comedy.