Iron Man 3 *SPOILERS*

[Kojiro]

Well I was thinking about this as well, Tony seemed to on a personal vendetta. So that's why he didn't call in for help and Stark was presumed dead after the attack on his house at least by the mass media so maybe SHIELD didn't know he was alive. (though this would strain credulity for me) It is odd given SHIELD's constant presence in the previous two films.

I can't believe they'd assume him dead (or that he's not *instantly* recognisable the world over) without finding at least a piece of the armour he was wearing. It's not like they wouldn't talk to Pepper.

As for him being irrational or not thinking a) he's smart enough to know an attack on his home is likely and b) we even get a line from him about how 'smart guys plan ahead'.

I get the personal vendetta thing but why would you attack unarmoured when you could wait like 10 minutes and go in armoured!?

Another thing I didn't get was how when the house was blown up, the film acted like Stark had no other resources. No where else to go to fix the suit. I mean Stark Enterprise must have more of the auto fab facilities he has in his sub-basement, or at the very least, did he not keep some suit at Avengers Tower in New York.

If he was serious about protecting Pepper he'd have a suit at every location she's likely to visit. It's not like he can't afford the real estate. He may even go so far as to hire personal security! But all that would get in the way of the story they wanted to tell, and so it goes on the same pile as 'why the house was undefended'.

The only explanation I can think of was that since JARVIS had flown him via flight plan to the location he wanted to investigate and he didn't want to waste time going to one of the other locations.

Another victim of 'not the story we want to tell'. In IM1 Tony orders JARVIS to 'connect to the Sisko' and have it fabricate him a MK3 suit, to which JARVIS replies 'Construction time will be 5 hours'. Now if nothing more this means that a new suit can be produced in very short order (assuming there were no backups anywhere). The question becomes getting in to Tony. Well we already know JARVIS is more than capable of a flight plan so that's no issue. And we know that JARVIS is uploaded to individual devices, each able to operate independently. What about time? Well we know that the parts of a MK42, under battery power alone, can get themselves can cover 830 miles or so in no more than a few minutes.There's no reason for Tony to abandon the town he's in. It can all come to him. Aside from the sheer stupidity of attacking the Mandarin stronghold alone and unarmoured, there is absolutely zero need for it. Even without the new suit he could have just waited 10 more minutes and had the MK42.

At the end of the day they wanted to tell a story about Tony Stark the man and how he's evolving as a character. And that's a fine idea and could be a great movie but there is so much contrived character stupidity to make it work it hurts. It's a chain of stupid with one stupid decisions setting up a scenario to be solved with the next stupid decision.

Spoony talks about Guy Pearce at the beginning in much the same way I viewed him: a horrible stereotypical dork scientist who ticks all the boxes for unoriginality just so he can pull off the "Actually, I'm hunky Guy Pearce" transformation with AIM.

It's verging on (may even be) a trope. Give a neglected nerd power/success and he'll become a jerk.

[Simon_Jester]

Another thing I didn't get was how when the house was blown up, the film acted like Stark had no other resources. No where else to go to fix the suit... he wanted to investigate and he didn't want to waste time going to one of the other locations.

Another possibility is that he wanted to keep his whereabouts and activities and, hell, survival a secret. During his time in Tennessee, he knows "the Mandarin" has huge resources of surveillance and can infiltrate terrorist attacks almost anywhere he wants. So it makes sense that Stark would want to lay low, and try to get his mind and his equipment in order for a while.

Then his decision to go after the Mandarin's mansion without his armor was... yeah, very badly thought out. He may have been relying on the fact that the armor would come when he called, but it was still very badly thought out. Especially since we see (in the assault on the oil rig) that for all his ability to stage ambushes, Stark isn't much of a commando.

But considering the Guy is on MK42 and has shown pretty much to treat the suits as disposable and always heading to the next mark. The 'they look after me and i look after them' remarks about the suit just seems odd and out of place.

Again, I think this reflects his mental state, and the idealized version of himself he's presenting to this child.

I can't believe they'd assume him dead (or that he's not *instantly* recognisable the world over) without finding at least a piece of the armour he was wearing. It's not like they wouldn't talk to Pepper.

They may have found pieces of several of the Mk I through VII suits (which seem to have been blown up in the attack). Moreover, we know that a lot of Stark's mansion slid into the ocean in a big tangled pile of concrete and rebar that had to be taken apart with cranes. Knowing that most of Stark's suits had limited oxygen supplies, if you hadn't seen him escape in the confusion of the attack you might assume that he got trapped and asphyxiated down there. On the other hand, maybe he's still alive... in which case SHIELD would be busily expediting the recovery operations and not much else.

As for him being irrational or not thinking a) he's smart enough to know an attack on his home is likely and b) we even get a line from him about how 'smart guys plan ahead'.

I get the personal vendetta thing but why would you attack unarmoured when you could wait like 10 minutes and go in armoured!?

His problem is that he's being very neurotic about WHAT he plans for. For example, the idea behind the modular armor is obviously that he can use it to protect someone like Pepper, and it's quite clever... but there are problems in implementation in that it falls to pieces all the time.

Likewise, he improvises some rather brilliant personal weapons... but he's unrealistic and not thinking clearly. Superficially clever tactics, bad strategy; it's the hallmark of Stark's erratic behavior during this film.

Another thing I didn't get was how when the house was blown up, the film acted like Stark had no other resources. No where else to go to fix the suit. I mean Stark Enterprise must have more of the auto fab facilities he has in his sub-basement, or at the very least, did he not keep some suit at Avengers Tower in New York.

If he was serious about protecting Pepper he'd have a suit at every location she's likely to visit. It's not like he can't afford the real estate. He may even go so far as to hire personal security!

He doesn't go anywhere without his own armor, and the modular armor that could be wrapped around Pepper to keep her safe was still in the prototype phase. If he'd gotten it to work he might well have done exactly that.

But all that would get in the way of the story they wanted to tell, and so it goes on the same pile as 'why the house was undefended'.

The house was defended against infiltrators, and against the stereotypical profile of a terrorist attack (i.e. a suicide bomber or assassin). It was NOT protected against an attack by helicopter gunships, and I'm guessing that's because Stark didn't think of the Mandarin as that kind of threat.

At the end of the day they wanted to tell a story about Tony Stark the man and how he's evolving as a character. And that's a fine idea and could be a great movie but there is so much contrived character stupidity to make it work it hurts. It's a chain of stupid with one stupid decisions setting up a scenario to be solved with the next stupid decision.

That's a valid criticism- they play up Stark being erratic too much, and his behavior becomes rather stupid.

In-story his actions may also be fueled by arrogance about how he defeated those two Extremis soldiers in Tennesee; he may be getting a pumped up sense of his own personal ability to pull the kind of stuff Captain America would do, instead of being realistic and intelligent and armoring up. Out-of-story much the same- they seem to have gone out of their way to present the "Stark as MacGuyver" angle, when that's not what we normally see or want to see from him.

[Havok]

Uh are you guys criticizing a guy with PTSD for making irrational, illogical decisions?

[Stark]

Have you never noticed the weeping when a movie has people not be 'rational' by the definition of xyz nerds? I mean, there's misunderstanding drama, and there's misunderstanding drama so bad COMIC BOOKS ARE BEYOND YOU.

[NeoGoomba]

As to why SHIELD didn't intervene, not only did the US government want to fly solo on this mini-crisis, but perhaps they were tied up with what the other members were doing? We don't yet know the timeframe for all the new post-Avengers movies, but it could be similar to how Iron Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk took place at the same time. Maybe Cap's mission in Winter Soldier happened while the hit on Air Force One happens, and the bulk of SHIELD's finite resources were with him? (Movie SHIELD doesn't seem to conform to the omnipresence wank of the comics. Yet.)

[Simon_Jester]

Uh are you guys criticizing a guy with PTSD for making irrational, illogical decisions?

From an art point of view, you have to walk a line between making the PTSD guy act too logically, and too illogically. Having Tony Stark act totally rational would be out of keeping with this theme of him being stressed since New York. And, for that matter, out of keeping with his entire persona from day one- we can totally imagine the Tony Stark of IM1 having done the same damn thing and basically challenged the Mandarin to a duel, for example.

On the other hand, a guy who's completely nuts and delusional would get himself killed going into dangerous situations like that, which could actually make a pretty good short movie but is probably not the Iron Man story they want to tell.

Have you never noticed the weeping when a movie has people not be 'rational' by the definition of xyz nerds? I mean, there's misunderstanding drama, and there's misunderstanding drama so bad COMIC BOOKS ARE BEYOND YOU.

Seconded.

But then... if Tony Stark is so psychologically dependent on his armor, that perhaps it would have made more sense if his irrational behavior took the form of refusing to do anything until his armor was repaired, even things that he could probably do unarmored, in his new role as 21st Century MacGyver.

So it's like he makes a complete 180 in Tennessee, from being so dependent on his armor that he can't cope when it glitches, to actively avoiding the use of the armor even when it would make sense to do so. Is this dramatically appropriate? What catalyzes that, because I think I missed the deep personal revelation that would drive him to change that much that fast?

[NeoGoomba]

It was the kid that snapped him out of his dependence on his existing gear. IIRC after Stark had another panic attack and has to pull his car over the kid mocks him and then says "you're a mechanic, right? Make something else," or something, which seemed to kick start Starks Macguyver powers not seen since IM1.

[Coop D'etat]

It was the kid that snapped him out of his dependence on his existing gear. IIRC after Stark had another panic attack and has to pull his car over the kid mocks him and then says "you're a mechanic, right? Make something else," or something, which seemed to kick start Starks Macguyver powers not seen since IM1.

Which was the whole point of the armour dependance plot. Building the armour was his way of dealing with his kidnapping. But like many coping mechanisms he became over-reliant on it and whats worse, it stopped working for him after his near death experience in New York.

So the point of being the "mechanic" is that he comes to realize that its his own talents that makes him powerful, not just having a suit of armour and he can be effective without it. So for the rest of the film he's using the armours as merely tools to an end. Thus at the end, he can move on from having a minature power plant in his chest because he doesn't need that close a connection to the power of the Iron Man system, in contrast to where he was in IM2 and Avengers.

As far as sequels go, none of this means he can't wear the suit, the point was he was done with his increasingly unhealthy relationship with the suits.

[Simon_Jester]

What I mean is, it seems like an awfully sharp and yet unheralded turnaround. At least, I don't remember it being adequately presented- but then, I may have missed a line or two of dialogue.

[Coop D'etat]

Judging from the desparity of reactions, your not alone. So it may be the filmmakers fault for not presenting clearly enough that everyone will pick up on it.

[Havok]

I think it's just that people are stupid and/or don't remember the first two movies.

[NeoGoomba]

Yeah. I mean, Starks massive ego is one of his defining characteristics, predating his Iron Man schtick. It's kind of a major plot point in EVERY movie he is in. And all the kid really did was feed that ego, reminding him that he was great before he made the armor.

[Simon_Jester]

OK, actually that makes the scene seem less bad, if what's happening is that Stark's ego is pumping him full of self-confidence: "I am Iron Man, the suits aren't."

But it seems to happen off-screen.

[Erik von Nein]

It happens on screen, immediately following a panic attack, with the kid reminding him of his greatness. It's even followed up by a "I'm going to turn household items into KILLING MACHINES, imsogreat" shopping spree.

I mean, yeah, you could argue it happens too quickly, except that's the entire point behind his interaction with the kid in the first place, since his armor's out of commission and he's relying on his own abilities again he's confronted with his armor being his emotional crutch and the scene reminds him of that.

it's not that hard c'mon

[Simon_Jester]

I get it, I just think there should be... a little more stuff, maybe only 30-60 seconds, between his reaction to the "build something else" comment and his actually being prepared to take on a bunch of armed guards with household implements.

[Havok]

You mean like the panic attacks he keeps suffering? Him calling to his armor in his fucking sleep? Did you even watch the fucking movie? Christ. The guy made WEAPONS for the military. He didn't just design him, he fucking showed the military guys how to use them. Does he know how to move tactically in a two man group like Rhodey was worried about? No. Is he a complete idiot that has never touched a weapon in his life before he made Iron Man? Of course not. Not to mention, he has done all sorts of shit as Iron Man now. The idea of attacking some security guards patrolling a mansion isn't that crazy fellas.

It's so fucking strange that Hammer is playing Stark from before he was Iron Man and no one sees it or think it has any impact on the 2nd and now the 3rd movie. I mean, I don't think to directors could hit people any harder over the head with the character development of Stark unless they did it with an actual Iron Man suit.

[Justice]

You mean like the panic attacks he keeps suffering? Him calling to his armor in his fucking sleep? Did you even watch the fucking movie? Christ. The guy made WEAPONS for the military. He didn't just design him, he fucking showed the military guys how to use them. Does he know how to move tactically in a two man group like Rhodey was worried about? No. Is he a complete idiot that has never touched a weapon in his life before he made Iron Man? Of course not. Not to mention, he has done all sorts of shit as Iron Man now. The idea of attacking some security guards patrolling a mansion isn't that crazy fellas.

I don't think that's what he's talking about. He's talking about the transformation from "Tony being a wreck" to "Tony being okay again" that is like a 3-second transformation on the side of the road after hearing the phrase "So build something" like he was a Manchurian candidate. I don't think anyone is saying that the scene completely fails or that they don't get the realization that Tony has, but perhaps there could have been more there, like Tony trying to rationalize his fears or pushing back even a little bit. Considering all that's been happening in the movie, the scene could have been fleshed out a bit more.

[NeoGoomba]

Also, immediately prior to said scene he takes out two of Killian's super soldiers without his armor. So he demonstrates his capability without even realizing it until the kid sort of kicks him back into the "I'm the best" mindset.

[Erik von Nein]

And it wasn't that he was okay again, he was just pointed to the road to his recovery. Thus the ending sequence where he finally trusts someone enough to remove the shrapnel in his heart.

[Simon_Jester]

You mean like the panic attacks he keeps suffering? Him calling to his armor in his fucking sleep? Did you even watch the fucking movie? Christ.

Did you even read the post?

It's not that he's completely out of his mind to try to infiltrate the mansion as such. It's that there was very little screentime between "Stark is freaking out and helpless," the "go build something" remark, and Stark suddenly turning back into MacGyver.

Stark being the MacGyver is totally not a problem. Stark having nervous breakdowns because his armor's out of commission is not a problem. Flipping from one state to the other like a light switch is a problem, and I'd be happier if we saw a somewhat more gradual transition, or at least some dialogue from Stark acknowledging that this change in his mental state is taking place.

It's so fucking strange that Hammer is playing Stark from before he was Iron Man and no one sees it or think it has any impact on the 2nd and now the 3rd movie.

Hm?

I have not heard it outright said by anyone analyzing the movies that Hammer is trying to imitate pre-Iron Man Tony Stark. But it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

[avatarxprime]

It's so fucking strange that Hammer is playing Stark from before he was Iron Man and no one sees it or think it has any impact on the 2nd and now the 3rd movie.

Hm?

I have not heard it outright said by anyone analyzing the movies that Hammer is trying to imitate pre-Iron Man Tony Stark. But it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

Well Hammer has always been a dark version of Tony, being far more amoral and ruthless than Tony ever was. I always read Iron Man 2 (based on the villain selection) as their showing Tony's life falling apart by showing him alternate versions of himself. He was supposed to be attacked on all sides, Hammer usurping his business, Vanko meeting him as an equal but villainous genius/Iron Man, and Senator Stern as the bridging factor that is out to destroy his civilian life/remove his identity as Iron Man the Hero. Sadly, IMHO they failed to execute that idea as well as they could have. Then again, with IM3 being the way it was, do we really need Tony to hit 2 lowest points in his life where everything is in danger?

[Kojiro]

And it wasn't that he was okay again, he was just pointed to the road to his recovery. Thus the ending sequence where he finally trusts someone enough to remove the shrapnel in his heart.

Road to recovery? Less than 24 hours after his attack he is:
Captured by terrorists (again)
Watches a former lover die
Is told he's going to face prolonged confinement to work for terrorists (again)
Is told his current love is facing immediate, life threatening danger
Has Killian bring up Thor and New York
And finally...
Calls upon his armour FIVE TIMES and it doesn't come.

And he does not have an attack. I mean by any measure he has the right to fall a part. But he doesn't. Because some kid told him to build something.

Incidentally the only way he beat the second extremists was with not one but two suit weapon systems.

[Batman]

Yeah, but still without the suit. I don't find it hard to believe that psychologically, the parts of the suit are just gadgets to him, it's the suit in its entirety that is the crutch he thinks he needs.
And something that just occurred to me-may the ludicrously low resistance of the Mk42 to being shattered into its components be a deliberate design feature? The three times we saw it shattered, there was nobody in it, and it didn't seem any worse for wear for being shattered every time. It was working well enough after Tony smashed it apart-with his bare hands to boot-to save both Pepper and Tony in the mansion attack, it survived being run over by a truck well enough to come to Tony's rescue towards the end of the film, and it definitely survived JARVIS being a terrible pilot long enough for Tony to sic it onto Killian. The only time it actually took serious damage was when Pepper/Tony were wearing it, so the suit would try to protect the wearer (well and the self-destruct at the end, but self-destructs tend to do that). Empty, the suit may very well decide that being shattered into its component parts with little if any damage to the parts is preferrable to trying to staying in one piece and being severely damaged, what with it essentially being designed as being a set of unconnected parts except when somebody wears them anyway so being scattered over the countryside a little isn't really much of a concern.

[Simon_Jester]

My impression of the scene where Tony hit the suit when it came after Pepper in bed is that Tony knew a particular spot where there was an emergency "break the suit apart" button or something. Hitting the emergency catch and breaking the suit apart wouldn't damage the parts- that's a common sense design feature.

The other two times- after the crash the armor is significantly less functional, Jarvis is damaged or seems to be. And when he finally tries to use the Mk. 42 armor in the breakout from Killian's stronghold, he finds that it isn't nearly as functional as he wanted or expected. He has to stop and recalibrate or repair or something before it can work properly.

After it gets hit by the truck and reassembles, it's a mess- we see it coming in with the suit jets firing erratically, and it clips a pylon and breaks into pieces again.

This is consistent with the suit being designed to break apart. But when it breaks apart because of impacts, it is noticeably and progressively damaged: mechanical and electrical linkages don't work as well afterward.

[Havok]

Tony gave the suit a voice command to shut down. It's more likely that once that happened the seals for the individual components deactivated than there being a special button right on the chest that causes the suit to fall apart.