Pacific Rim- how to do it more efficiently?

[Q99]

Does it matter if it does more than a robot fist if it's still not a kill, though?

[Borgholio]

Does it matter if it does more than a robot fist if it's still not a kill, though?

Sure, since we haven't seen robot fists kill anything either. The Jaegers pound them into the ground and then use a blade or a plasma cannon to finish them off. Say you use several dozen MOABs to do the same thing...knock it to the ground. Then you can finish it off with bunker busters or shaped charge warheards. Using tons of munitions will be preferable to a Jaeger due to the sheer cost involved. A single Jaeger costs over $100 billion. You can buy almost SEVEN THOUSAND MOABS for that. Even if it takes a hundred MOABs + penetrators to kill a single Kaiju, that means you still have a 60 to 1 kill ratio in terms of cost. That's way better than what we see in the films.

[Sea Skimmer]

What kind of material properties for armor would be required to allow something as small as Kaiju to shrug off weapons like those? Would it even be possible at all with armor made out of normal matter?

No. Certainly not with anything we can even dream about.

The entire rational behind the effectiveness of shaped charges and dense alloy long rods is that they penetrate via erosion. And the only armors which are remotely effective against this sort of attack also defeat the penetration by erroding it. The mass from all this erosion is ejected back out the hole at immense speeds. Steel armor largely defeats hits by plastic deformation, which is why so many materials make armor much better then steel even when they are much lighter. Steel can be engineered to take very little damage from being preforated, but this also makes for bad armor.

Erosion based mechanics mean the armor must take damage while being hit. Which means not just damage to the creature directly but an immense coupling of shock energy into it. And since the damn things can be hurt by low velocity punches its plausible that supersonic shockwaves would not be even worse per unit of energy. While in real life vehicles don't have video game like hit points, specific armor panels kinda do. Indeed much research is going into embedded sensors to measure this in real time in the field.

Even if you came up with a material much stronger then existing armors, it would need to have such high hardness and compressive strength that it would also make a useful liner material for a shaped charge. Real life tends to stick with a few materials because they are the most efficient overall result, against known armor threats and for the cost, but a huge number of other materials then the well known coppers will work and work well. DU for example was extensively tested, and beryllium and gold and plain window glass is actually really good along with some other ceramics.

So such magic super armor able to withstand modern shaped charge liners would be its own countermeasure (unless it was magically lacking in density) Keep in mind we are already talking about modern ceramic armor, which will be badly damaged by a shaped charge, having as much as 3 million psi compressive strength, and that high explosives can already generate that kind of pressure at point blank range (within 1 radius of the explosive mass) without any focusing being required! That's why I suggested much earlier simply mooring large HE mines would be totally effective. They'd be more effective in many respects then small nuclear weapons.

The only way to get out of this erosion thing would be to have a material so hard it couldn't scratch itself even when projected at the highest velocities ever achieved with shaped charge explosives projecting solid particulates, and also had immensely greater strength in multiple other properties so it didn't just get smashed by the overall impact. Many kinds of armor get pretty trashed stopping just a few hits. On a lone AFV that can be okay. On a giant monster we could EASILY fire a thousand missiles at in minutes? Not so much.

Highest solid particle shaped charges known in public were about 40km/s. The highest we've explosively driven material converted into gas by the process is 140km/s. Those figures were obtained in the 1950s and 1960s too, and we have considerably more effective (in this context, its not all about raw energy) explosives since then. And we've notionally come up with some radically better ones in turn though some of them like the N8 explosive might not be possible to manufacture.

Armor that could do this kind of thing also could not even dream of being flexible, which the monsters clearly are, which means even if they had pieces of such armor on them they'd still have vulnerable joint areas. Which is where the ability of a squadron of bombers to drop dozens of multi ton bombs come into play. Not to mention every other weapon we could build.

[Starglider]

Skimmer's analysis is as ever excellent, but honestly conventional physics are kind of out the window when considering Pacific Rim kaiju capabilities. I confess I forgot most of the film, but I do remember the flying kaiju (approx 60m / 2700 tons) doing a vertical take off (one flap from a standing start) while badly wounded and carrying a 2000 ton mecha. Both of which had areodynamics not much better than the proverbial brick. Downstroke on approx 10,000 m3 wing area with produces very roughly 24 MN of force, yet appears to accelerate monster and payload upwards at approx 40 ms^2, which should require about 230 MN (in earth gravity). So regardless of what material it's made of, it's somehow creating 10 times the thrust that aerodynamics would allow. The monster then manages to climb to at least 50,000 feet and more or less hover where the air pressure is 12% of sea level, requiring even more implausible aerodynamics.

To rationalise that there has to be some sort of sci-fi physics going on beyond just implausibly strong materials. Basically all the Kaiju have to have superpowers to do what they do, and you're looking more at the 'why is Superman immune to bullets' explanations than anything might work in a harder franchise (e.g. 'carbon fibre bones' for Avatar).

[Q99]

Also on the material capacity of Kaiju: We know Trespasser was killed by nukes, but we see the skull in a museum, with even the crest intact.

And Otachi's fall from terminal velocity killed it, but didn't crush the skeleton.

[Gaidin]

Skimmer's analysis is as ever excellent, but honestly conventional physics are kind of out the window when considering Pacific Rim kaiju capabilities. I confess I forgot most of the film, but I do remember the flying kaiju (approx 60m / 2700 tons) doing a vertical take off (one flap from a standing start) while badly wounded and carrying a 2000 ton mecha. Both of which had areodynamics not much better than the proverbial brick. Downstroke on approx 10,000 m3 wing area with produces very roughly 24 MN of force, yet appears to accelerate monster and payload upwards at approx 40 ms^2, which should require about 230 MN (in earth gravity). So regardless of what material it's made of, it's somehow creating 10 times the thrust that aerodynamics would allow. The monster then manages to climb to at least 50,000 feet and more or less hover where the air pressure is 12% of sea level, requiring even more implausible aerodynamics.

To rationalise that there has to be some sort of sci-fi physics going on beyond just implausibly strong materials. Basically all the Kaiju have to have superpowers to do what they do, and you're looking more at the 'why is Superman immune to bullets' explanations than anything might work in a harder franchise (e.g. 'carbon fibre bones' for Avatar).

I would assume they're natural for the Kaiju based on the condition of the planet. IIRC, they'd been here before as the dinosaurs, but couldn't "get any more powerful" but for what specific reasons(atmosphere?), I can't remember. They waited until the movie's time.

[Q99]

I would assume they're natural for the Kaiju based on the condition of the planet. IIRC, they'd been here before as the dinosaurs, but couldn't "get any more powerful" but for what specific reasons(atmosphere?), I can't remember. They waited until the movie's time.

I don't know the specifics, but yea, the planet at the time was not viewed as suitable for colonization.


More behind-the-scenes stuff, their bumping into dinosaurs and other creatures helped provide an inspiration for some Kaiju design, under the logic of, 'well, if stuff lives their, then their designs are going to be a workable base'. So, the bipedal ones may be inspired by therapods. The crab Kaiju is because they've seen crabs. Yadda yadda.

[Jub]

More behind-the-scenes stuff, their bumping into dinosaurs and other creatures helped provide an inspiration for some Kaiju design, under the logic of, 'well, if stuff lives their, then their designs are going to be a workable base'. So, the bipedal ones may be inspired by therapods. The crab Kaiju is because they've seen crabs. Yadda yadda.

That design philosophy doesn't make a lick of sense. You can't simply take a creature and enlarge it using the scale tool, and if you can you have no need to do so in the first place, however, much about the Kaiju makes no sense.

Consider for a moment that they're custom created one of a kind monsters. One would thus expect that each would specialize at a specific task. Perhaps the first few may have been designed as scouts. Taking on a passive role, inviting curiosity rather than hostility. The next waves could then specialize further, perhaps taking on a form designed to make shipping anything across the Pacific a risky and potentially bankrupting endeavor. The next might be a beast designed to do the same for air travel.

Or perhaps all waves before the gate is fixed open are either scouts designed with stealth in mind, or simple bulky beings designed to press open the gateway before returning home and being recycled. The plan would be to maintain the gate and observe humanity without being detected until the time is ripe to strike with overwhelming force. Thus, they could overwhelm a human resistance with no more experience fighting giant monsters then they have fighting any other fictional threat.

Really, anything would have been better than taking inspiration from dinosaurs or crabs.

[Q99]

That design philosophy doesn't make a lick of sense. You can't simply take a creature and enlarge it using the scale tool, and if you can you have no need to do so in the first place, however, much about the Kaiju makes no sense.

Hm, good point. And it is the case that it's not that they simply enlarged them, when I say 'based on,' it's obviously pretty loose a lot of the time (like, they may have gotten the idea of weapon-heads from dinosaurs, but Knifehead's got a head like no dinosaur they'd have met, and Scunner seems like entirely original work), but there is definite design influences.


Which brings a thought to my head- perhaps they'd simple never made something that big before. Like, they have the material tech to make super-strong bones and super-powerful muscles obviously, and if you look at them, they, personally, are small and spindly. What does one draw inspiration from for a giant monster if one has nothing resembling a giant monster?

Consider for a moment that they're custom created one of a kind monsters. One would thus expect that each would specialize at a specific task. Perhaps the first few may have been designed as scouts. Taking on a passive role, inviting curiosity rather than hostility. The next waves could then specialize further, perhaps taking on a form designed to make shipping anything across the Pacific a risky and potentially bankrupting endeavor. The next might be a beast designed to do the same for air travel.

Or perhaps all waves before the gate is fixed open are either scouts designed with stealth in mind, or simple bulky beings designed to press open the gateway before returning home and being recycled. The plan would be to maintain the gate and observe humanity without being detected until the time is ripe to strike with overwhelming force. Thus, they could overwhelm a human resistance with no more experience fighting giant monsters then they have fighting any other fictional threat.

Though they may be worried about giving data without receiving data on our defensive capabilities- getting information on our ability to repulse them seemed a major concern. Imagine if we were a lot more advanced and capable of repulsing even hundreds/thousands of Kaiju- they'd want to know before committing.

[Jub]

Which brings a thought to my head- perhaps they'd simple never made something that big before. Like, they have the material tech to make super-strong bones and super-powerful muscles obviously, and if you look at them, they, personally, are small and spindly. What does one draw inspiration from for a giant monster if one has nothing resembling a giant monster?

If I were tasked with creating Kaiju, I'd start by defining the roles that need to be filled. This means that you're at least looking at scouts, attackers, and defenders in three broad categories. From there you start looking at what you know about Earth from the previous times you were there and your models based on that prior knowledge. In this case, they knew that Earth was mainly covered in water, with at least one large landmass. Assuming they don't know where the portal will connect to this means the first scout Kaiju should be amphibious, with a bias towards being effective in the ocean, this just based on odds. If you know that the portal always appears near the surface of the planet you also start designing for crushing depths and very low pressures. You also need to ensure that your scouts have a way to get back to the portal to deliver any data gathered.

With this knowledge, you want something relatively stealthy and none threatening, but you also want to use your portals size limit to maximum effect. You know you want something at home in the ocean, that can survive appearing on land. You also know that sending a single scout through won't get you much coverage and that something big doesn't meet the goal of being stealthy and non-threatening. So you're probably looking at sending lots of small things through, the only issue is that small things tend not to have the endurance needed to cross an ocean to find something interesting, so you want a way to transport them.

At this stage, you might start looking at engineering a carrier, to transport your scouts, given your lack of knowledge it should also be something that will protect the actual scout units until they're at a place they can do something useful. So you start looking at something that has a storage pouch that acts like a spaceship/submarine.

Then from there you refine that idea based on your materials, the mass and space needed to transport your units, mobility for the carrier unit and so on. These designs might be inspired by creatures you've encountered before or machines your culture has built, but the strict design constraints will probably force you to design most of the creature on your own. In this case, you build two competing Kaiju, because you won't know if the first one worked until the portal opens for the second time. However you will likely know the area you're units are exiting into so this allows for refinement of plans for the next model.

If your first design works, send another improved model through, if it fails or send plan B through. Build on your knowledge and refine as you go so long as the time frame allows for you to do so.

This is how engineers and military planners work, they don't say, "I need a giant monster, so let's build one based on some random big things we saw on an alien world." FFS, I can't believe I'm even having to explain this.

Though they may be worried about giving data without receiving data on our defensive capabilities- getting information on our ability to repulse them seemed a major concern. Imagine if we were a lot more advanced and capable of repulsing even hundreds/thousands of Kaiju- they'd want to know before committing.

That's a risk that isn't solved by sending a big stompy monster through first. That risk can only be assessed via scouts, and scouts only work if they don't get killed by the things they're learning about. So that leads back to stealth, speed, keen senses, and the ability to get to and from the portal. None of these things require a massive stompy Gojira clone to accomplish.

[Q99]

Thanks for engaging on this from the Kaiju Master's POV (And explaining what you'd do and why is, indeed, the whole point!)

Well, what do scouts, who can't speak the language, tell you about the defensive capability? What do you send them to look for, and how do you design 'em for best effect? Obviously, the lay of the land, but you're not likely to see much military-in-action. What's the plan to get the best intel?

, they don't say, "I need a giant monster, so let's build one based on some random big things we saw on an alien world."

It's not like they copy-pasted it, they still did design work. I dunno, 'making something to work on an alien world by somewhat incorporating some aspects of life forms there,' seems to not be an outrageous idea for me.

Though strategically, the plan was obviously, 'let's send these to test their defensive capabilities the brute-force way. With emphasis on endurance, survivability so we get more actual-combat data, and messing up any infrastructure* they find- and varying their behavior pattern to see how it's reacted to,' which is not very sophisticated. It's the plan of people who don't really have experience with war, IMO.





*The kaiju were able to home in on cities via sensing chemicals in the water or methods along those lines (according to in-universe PRDC memos based on observation), and it definitely worked at long range, as they regularly homed in on cities, so that gives us some info on their sensory capacity.

[Jub]

Thanks for engaging on this from the Kaiju Master's POV (And explaining what you'd do and why is, indeed, the whole point!)

Well, what do scouts, who can't speak the language, tell you about the defensive capability? What do you send them to look for, and how do you design 'em for best effect? Obviously, the lay of the land, but you're not likely to see much military-in-action. What's the plan to get the best intel?

I would try to make some sort of bird. The design priorities would be the ability to land on water, a large wingspan for long glides, the ability to feed on many different kinds of foods, and the best senses you can pack in while keeping the other parameters and maintaining the ability to fly. Size wise I'd go big, something the size of Argentavis Magnificens or even Quetzalcoatlus sized. These larger flying scouts could still be packed into a Kaiju sized carrier by the dozens and dozens.

Your first goal would just be to observe things in the general sense. Look at the world and see how it seems to run, this would show you things like airliners, container ships, oil tankers, trains, semi-trucks, and cars. It would also show you farms, skyscrapers, suburbs, roads, military bases, and shipyards. Sure, you're scouts are probably going to get shoot at eventually, but you design them not to fight back in hopes that people eventually stop shooting at them. You also tweak the design between waves. You send them out in waves until you're sure that your overview, is complete enough to make a map continental coastlines, major cites, roads, shipyards, and military bases.

With this ready to go you start to plan how you want to fight. Do you even want to go head to head with the military or would you rather try to destroy crops? Or do you distrupt shipping, international flights, and other major transport networks? Do you just try to kill as many people as possible per wave dirrectly and if so do you want to do it with a big stompy monster or a bunch of smaller sparrow sized things armed with venom? If you do want to fight the military do you try to go small so they have trouble finding and hitting you, mid sized to try to find a balance, or large to just tank damage? Do you change things up between waves regardless of success, or do you refine you designs until you start to see efficiency drop and then switch?

These are the questions to ask based on your interpretation of your intelligence. Based on that you look to answer the questions that come up about those plans.