Anakin vs. Ranma

[The Drunkard Kid]

From what we see of the portable blasters, they fire somewhat slower than arrows do, since you can track their movement with your eyes in a straight line parallel to the ground...

Wait there, we can track the movement of a tennis ball and they go with speeds over 120 Km/h. That is way faster than 3,4 times the speed of one human. And even we, normal humans (us as not you and me of course) still can hit that ball and not just a simple block, but also to control the direction and effect the ball will take.
But there is no need for both of us to speculate, right ? Someone probably know the speed of the blaster somewhere…

And like I showed, Ranma has at least 5-6 times the speed of a peak human in volume 7 in terms of casual running speed, while much greater in terms of sprinting (leaving afterimages behind) and H2H speed. Besides, I've seen a tennis match, and I've watched all 5 Star Wars movies (granted, I don't remember all that much of Empire Strikes Back, but that was a long time ago...); The tennis ball goes a lot faster than the blaster bolt, considering the distance it covers in that amount of time. Heck, after watching AOTC, I remember wondering why they didn't get Mark McGuire to be a Sith Lord, since he normally hits things that appear faster than blaster bolts without the aid of precognition...

Everything I've seen in either the manga or the anime seems to indicate that Kuno in volume one is a *lot* faster than anything any Jedi has shown in the 5 released Star Wars movies when it comes to slashing speed,

I already showed the calcs that allowed me to have a conclusion about the speed. If we are not going to talk about them –either to dismiss or to accept – there is no point in giving more impressions of speed, right ?

What calculations? I'm talking about sheer empirical data. Jedi swing slow enough for us to see each individual slash; Kuno swings so fast in volume one that he creates dozens of afterimages simultaneously, and the force from his swings can shatter a 10-20 foot stone pillar at least 20 feet away. Granted, the second half of that may be impossible for a Jedi to mimic due to the nature of the lightsabre, but the first half of the example still stands; Kuno has shown a close range speed that no Jedi, not even Yoda, has ever come close to approaching, and Ranma circa volume 7 can dance around it while standing up to his knees in water and balancing a bowl of ramen in his hands with 0 effort. Circa the appearance of Kuno Kochou, Ranma can dodge the combined strikes of Tatewaki and the principal (who appear to be around the same speed, with the Principal possibly being a tad faster) while his hands are bound and he's upside down and maneuvering just from the waist and by using his toes to tug on the rope.

otherwise none of the Jedi would have died during that Droid battle in AOTC.

Wait, they do not died because the droids are much faster, they died because they are outnumbered. There is no point being able to defend against one blaster if you hit by other 3.

You seemed to be implying that the Jedi Precog indicates that he'd be able to block every shot from Ranma. Considerng Ranma can get out more shots in a split second than were fired over the course of at least half that battle, and each shot is a buttload faster than a blaster bolt gives any appearance of being, than one Jedi should have been able to waste at least half the droids by themselves, if not them all.

. From Anakin's reaction to the former (he was getting angrier and angrier against Dooku, until Dooku decided that playtime was over and chopped off his hand), that's enough to make him rush and get sloppier, though neither of these will really be necessary.

Again, He did not got angry because any taunt, but because he was not able to defeat Dooku. Since we both agree that the fight will be very fast if Ranma win there is no need to even consider such option.

Yeah, and when does Ranma even need to consider before he starts insulting anyone that's stupid enough to attack him with insufficient skill and/or power? Though you have a point that it probably won't get that far, since Skywalker isn't fast enough to noticeably slow down Ranma's initial charge, nor durable enough to survive a love tap from Saotome with his conciousness intact.

He's also managed to piss off people who love him into berserker rushes (and not even just Akane; Shampoo and Ukyou have also whacked him a good one every now and again), and when he actually tried, he managed to drive Ryouga into an angry rush despite the Pig-boy having been previously trying to save his life.

Wait, Akane is always pissed with him. He often does that without even wanting too.

Akane has gotten over that really quickly. After the first half of Volume one, they tend to hang out most of the time and don't seem to fight constantly, only when something really wierd (from our perspective, not theirs) has happened, or when they get into one of their misunderstandings.

Ryouga, please, he got berserker just by Ranma telling him that he (Ranma) was cursed.

Technically, Ryouga got berserker well before that. He just started up again after finding out, which makes perfect sense. Once he got used to it, he was able to hang out with Ranma for periods without constantly trying to kill him, if there was some sort of moral or practical reason to, such as wanting to protect Ranma when he had lost his strength. In this scenario, Ranma managed to piss him off to the point where he forgot that he'd been defending him until now.

Shampoo and Ukyou really did not had big berserkers rages (they are both proud ,so they get angry) but only by specific stuff and in all those situations, Ranma know very well the people he angered.

Shampoo, Ukyou and Kodachi beat him into the ground just because they thought he was hitting on Hinako. He'd pissed off Kunou Kochou within seconds of meeting him. He's got actual techniques that rely on angering his opponents (HSH, Helldog's yell). And to be fair, Anakin doesn't seem to require any in depth psychological research to piss off. Just dancing around him casually would be more than enough, but tossing in insults to his skill and physical stats would be overkill, considering how angry he got because he thought that Obi Wan didn't respect his skills.

Which is not what happens with Anakin, so there is no reason to believe that Ranma’s taunt will work with him. Unless ^_^Amidala just fall in love with Ranma and decides to marry him. Then that would be a berserker and I am sure Anakin would end falling in some spring also.

See above, re: Anakin's reactions to slights on his skill. After dealing with the standard Saotome battle tactics, if Padme does *that* to him, then we as the audience will be lucky if we see anything more interesting than young Skywalker spontaneously combusting from rage... Though, to be fair, that would be pretty darn interesting...

And from the point of sticking to his beliefs and protecting those that he loved, he was an dismal failure. Ranma was more than willing to give up his strength, something he seemed to value even more than his manhood (for which he willingly subjected himself to his greatest fear) to save Akane, wheras Anakin gave up his loved ones in exchange for strength.

So, that makes Anakin weaker how ? His Will diminished ? Actually, no. His goodness diminished, yeah. There is a difference.

Since he was training his will power to fight for good, that means that his will was broken and he switched his beliefs all around. And falling to the Dark Side requires you to lose your hold on your fears and anger, if what Yoda says means anything. Basically, going Vader is like going into the Neko-ken, but without any of the positive benefits.

However, if you want more constant examples of willpower,

Yeah, Ranma is extremely determinate and devoted student of martial arts. Does that show any evidence that he will resist force manipulation ? No.

And what evidence is there that the Jedi Mind Trick can affect those of strong will (Here's Ben's exact quote from ANH: "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."), or that *any* Padawan was *ever* taught something as easily exploitable as the mind trick before getting their Jedi robes? Neither he nor Obi Wan from the first movie ever showed that skill, and it would make sense that you don't teach a student that until you're sure that they can handle situations with their own skills. Heck, if you want to get really technical about it, every time actual Jedi that were more skilled and far more experienced than Anakin (Old Ben Kenobi, and Qui Gon, to be specific) ever used the mind trick, they had to raise and wave their hands, IIRC. In the time it takes Anakin, if he has the ability, to wave his hand, Ranma would have ripped it off and fed it to him.

In fact, even Jabba seemed to think that weak wills are what the Jedi target with the trick (JABBA: (in Huttese subtitled) You weak-minded fool! He's using an old Jedi mind trick.), though admittedly he probably isn't the universe's foremost expert on it. Still, he's old enough to have been around during the time when the Jedi were still around in force, and he seems smart enough to have researched such opponents, especially considering that he recognized the Mind Trick right off the bat, and didn't have any trouble accepting it for what it was.

You say that Anakin automatically has strong will because he's undergoing Jedi training, but what examples of strong will did he show during the movies?

Having Jar-Jar as a friend!

To be fair, he only dealt with him for short periods, and had a decade of not having seen him. Of course, it's a true testament to his evil that he didn't kill him on first sight, so there. Neener.

Seriously, Jedis train to use their will to manipulate the force. That is indication of will strong enough to feats humans can not do.
Plus, Anakin’s will is the same of Darth Vader, since they are the same person. Darth have a weaker will ?

Vader had a lot of skill and power, but until the last moment when he sacrificed his life for his son, he never actually showed a single example of strong willpower, IIRC. You want a list of how many times Ranma's matched that particular feat (or at least did something that by all rights should have)? The line starts at volume 4 with "taking the total force of the Couple Cleaver", and goes all the way down to 38 with "attacking a pissed off, mountain top vaporizing, flying, regenerating godling armed with an extremely powerful magical weapon and on a homocidal rampage".

OTOH, uses ki just like every other martial artist in the series (presumably), but has shown more skills and tricks with it than anyone except arguably Cologne and Happosai who has at least 5 times as much experience as he does.

Yeah, Happosai and Cologne are without doubt the greatest Martial Artists of the series (among the usual cast of course). They hold the greatest number of tricks yeah. Happosai can manipulate chi and pull forth a battle aura of great power. And yet, Happosai have not a strong will. He can not resist to underwear.

He can't resist female undergarments because he needs them to live, as shown in volume 7 or 8. Ranma has nearly killed himself training by resisting *food and water*, so it's not really that much of a comparison. Yeah, when it comes to willpower, Happy's not at the highest of the Nerima list, especially when it comes to lust, but the fact that he can do things with his will and spiritual power that 99% of the martial artists in his world can't even begin of matching does speak highly of his strength of spirit when he's not distracted by his perversions.

This is not even anything about training like Ranma’s.

And it should be noted that we know absolutely 0% about the training that Happosai underwent, cause it was never even remotely mentioned. However, 99% of the training methods (barring *possibly* Hinako's exersizes) we've seen for the higher level tricks seems to involve great deals of physical or mental trauma (significantly greater than anything that was ever even *implied* for Padawan training, especially after seeing the class that Yoda was overseeing), and we know for a fact that at least one of Happosai's contemporaries used to be smashed with boulders in order to increase her toughness (Cologne).

Therefore claiming the technique range of Ranma to be a show of his great will is not logical, since the same theory falls out with Happosai. And even so, that would hardly prove Ranma can resist force manipulation.

Ranma being able to use his ki in ways that 99% of all martial artists can't isn't a good example of strong will, but the fact that Anakin can do 90% of the things that we've seen the other new trilogy Jedi do casually *is*? Without the added benefit that the Force seems to be much more instinctive to those who are lucky enough to be born with the ability to use it?

Erasing something from the records doesn't mean that he mindwiped everyone.

I did not said that. I said that when he did he masked his acts to a point that no one even remembered anything about this.

Or, he masked his acts to the point that no one ever found out about it in the first place by using a computer terminal to erase all records of something that no one is likely to look up in the first place, instead of mounting a siege on the Jedi records hall or something similarly open. Just because someone isn't caught doesn't mean that they were mind screwing everyone in the place.

As for Palpatine, all that Yoda said was "Impossible to see... the Dark Side clouds everything."

Still, Yoda perception was affected by a power done with the force. So he could be manipulated by the force, even with his amazing will.

Luckily, Ranma isn't trying to scry the future, just tie Anakin into a pretzel. If Palpatine could have mindscrewed those who were weaker in the Force than him without regards to their will power, much less the *ENTIRE JEDI COUNCIL*, than he wouldn't have even bothered hiding since no one ever even comes close to his strength in any of the trilogies, and as you said, he would already have used the mind trick on his strongest opposition (in fact, his only opposition if non-Force users were 100% susceptible to the mind trick). Heck, if mind tricks work on any non-Force user, then why the heck did Obi Wan get into a knock down, drag out wrestling competition to subdue Jango Fett instead of just waving his hand and saying,"Call me Queen." Er, figuratively speaking, of course. Now please excuse me as I try to scrape out that mental image with a rusty ice cream scoop.

In terms of tactical sense, character comments, and any of the scenes in the movies, there is no evidence to support the claim that only the Force can protect you from the mind trick.

that he pulled a mind trick over the little muppet. Everytime that we've seen the Jedi Mind trick used clearly, the Force user in question is right there, and it's effects are a lot more blatant, not to mention that the target doesn't seem to remember that they were hit with it

That may mean that Palpatine is powerful enough to do that without being always present also. But that is irrelevant, it is a example of Force Manipulation over someone that is no weaker will.

See above. If he can do the mind trick to that many Force users without revealing himself, with 100% effectiveness, and it isn't just a matter of hiding himself better than they can look for him, or sending out an interference pattern, than there is *no* reason why he didn't simply take over the Republic with a few thoughts.

. Now, the fact that Anakin has lasted long enough to learn all the tricks he did seems to indicate that either

Wait, that does not follow what Obi-Wan talk about him. He praises Anakin enough.

IIRC, he makes a few goodnatured japes about how Anakin doesn't focus on his swordsmanship as well as he could, but he repeatedly has to reprimand Anakin for losing his objectivity and temper. He might have commented that Anakin is somewhat more skilled than a normal Padawan, but from their respective performances in the battle against Dooku, Skywalker was nowhere near as good as Kenobi was during that time period, and that guy's performance against Jango Fett would have been embarassing for Ranma in the same conditions (heck, break both his arms and Saotome would have caught and subdued Fett without harming him in about 2 seconds, tops; Again, even in the same conditions as Kenobi had).

In A New Hope he actually say that Anakin was a jedi, but that could mean a lot of course. He could be lying to get Luke hooked or just being sentimental and we never see Anakin having the formal investiture as Jedi Knight.

Admittedly, this would be completely in character considering the other lies that were retconned into the series. However, to be fair, the original script didn't have Anakin being Vader, and Anakin really was supposed to have been killed by Vader. But it seems that Anakin does eventually get to become a Jedi, despite his horrible showing in AOTC, considering that neither Vader nor Palpatine ever denies that Anakin was a Jedi, though I think that by this point Lucas hadn't even thought of the word "Padawan" yet...

But that is irrelevant, so far it seems that was not his skills but his betrayal that kept him in turning in one Jedi.

[/b]My point was that one wouldn't teach a Padawan something as easily abused as the Jedi Mind Trick until they are sure that they have both the skill and the alignment to become true Jedi. In all likelyhood, one doesn't learn how to mind control people unless one is already a Jedi.

(which is probably the among the *last* things that a Jedi teaches their padawan... did Anakin ever even display that ability during the movie?)

I have no idea, probably someone know this information, right ? but you also said that mind tricks seemed to be inborn a few sentences back, So I guess We are not good enough about this…

I said that precognition seems to be inborn, as well as the ability to use the Force in general. Specific tricks probably require training, with others requiring far, far more, otherwise Anakin could have blocked the Force Lightning like Obi and Yoda did.

Given a choice b/w slavery to Watoo and training under Genma, sign me up for the former. Twice, just in case

Most of people would agree that slavery and denial of hope and dreams coming from it cause a bigger psychological trauma than having a hard training to do something you love a lot.

And most people would then not have seen the kind of crap Ranma had gone through. He might have loved the Art, but the first time he really realized that he was stronger than Genma, he pounded the crap out of his old man for the events of the training trip. The first time easily-offended, poorly controlled Padawan Skywalker met Watoo again, when he knew for a fact that he could have killed the blue bugger with one swing of his lightsaber, he was engaged in cordial conversation until he realized that his mother had been sold without telling him, which, predictably, pissed him off.

And exactly what hopes and dreams did he take away from Anakin? From everything we saw, Watoo allowed him to do the things he loved, ie: stay near his mom, build droids and race pods. Anakin was about as much a slave as Padme was actually a queen (she was more of a president, since she was elected to the position). He was more of a tradable employee who was fortunate enough to have a really nice boss.

Much otherwise, the success there would be beneficial. But that would now turn in avoiding the topic, since there is possible that someone born in luxury have strong will and someone living in a hell don’t , there is no reason for us to argue any longer about this, here in this topic.

True, but in this case we're arguing that Ranma's been through more crap than Anakin has, and has shown strong will, while Anakin has yet to display even one example beyond "Use Force Adequately".

In other place perhaps.

Now, while Anakin is probably very good for a Padawan, Ranma has dealt with weapon using masters that make Kenobi look like a rank amateur

Wait, who ? (And in this case, Ranma also did not fought them with their weapons, but with his own techniques. )

Not exactly with the same weapons, but he utterly owned Kima, who in addition to having much more superhuman stats and greater amount of training than Anakin, also had a technique that allowed her to send dozens of blades of razor sharp ki/air at him. Ranma defeated her in mid air (where she has the greater experience due to her wings) as soon as she unsheathed her sword (and remember, as the personal guard of Saffron, she's probably the most skilled fighter in Phoenix Mountain) while using a weapon that he had mastered after 3 swings, the Kinjaken. Now the Kinjaken, in addition to being far more powerful than a lightsabre, is also a whole lot trickier to use due to it's magical nature. Both times he swung it previously it had backfired, but by the third try he had mastered it to the point where he was able to pummel Kima effortlessly, in mid-air, with that completely knew weapon, while she was armed with a blade that she had presumably spent years training with.

Ranma's mastered Martial Arts Tea Ceremony in one night, to the point where he matched his trainer blow for blow by the end of it, and was about to defeat his opponent (a very skilled monkey) horribly once he got serious about it, using only that style and the limitations of the weapons he had available.

Ranma mastered Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics (the raw basic style, not the wierd, freestyle version that he used against Kodachi to counter her cheating and insanity) in one night, while his trainer was trying to cripple him with it. By the end of their night long duel, Ranma had mastered the weapons and had beaten his trainer, who again was much more superhuman than Anakin, decisively using weapons and techniques that he had already been well trained in and are extremly strange. Everything we've seen indicates that Ryouga in Volume 2 is a lot more skilled with his weapons than Anakin in AOTC.

These examples are what happens when Ranma imagine what he'd do to Anakin using a type of weapon he's already got more than a passing familiarity with. Heck, even if he intergrated his own techniques and style into his swordplay, you're *supposed* to do that when you get a weapon...

we go by what was shown, then Anakin leaving that many openings against a superior foe indicates that he either leaves even more openings all the time, or has such little control over his own emotionst that he gets sloppier when facing someone stronger and more skilled than himself.

Not really. Because we have Obi-wan praising his sword’s skill, remember ? If Anakin usually acted like that Obi-wan would not ever say that. Unless we consider Obi-wan to be a moron.

You do *not* want to start the debate on how big a wuss Obi Wan was in the new prequel. I've seen threads that were many pages long based on just that topic. Admittedly, the threads usually degenerate into a very, very long list of the reasons why George Lucas is an idiotic sellout, but still...

As it was though, a) Obi Wan said things that implied that Anakin didn't train as hard as he could have, b) he specifically reprimanded Anakin on numerous occassions for recklessness and losing his control, and c) Anakin may be good, but he's still a student and he's going up against someone that regularly pounds a certain accomplished Master of the Martial Arts, namely Genma Saotome, into the ground with casual ease; *Obi Wan* didn't display half the skill in combat as the kind of weapons users that Ranma generally goes against bare handed, so how is giving Ranma a weapon that he's familiar with gonna make things more difficult for him?

I wasn't talking about the actions of all the Jedi, just how Anakin used a high stance to wait for the robots to fire;

Wait, that is Lucas’s bad portrait of an Fighting stance. After all, Anakin was able to survive very well in such situation that many other Jedi could not. That means, that despite of the impression we had, he acted well.

To be fair, every swordsperson that I've ever talked to about it said that the swordfights in Episodes 4-6 were well done and realistic, especially when compared to the excessive choreagraphy of the new trilogy. Still, the comment was directed on how you said you didn't see what he did wrong. I already said that I generally give them more skill than they've shown, because they've not shown very much skill at all, and it wouldn't make sense for them to suddenly discover a working fighting style *after* all the Jedi die...

Still, from what I recall, the only reasons he survived at all was because he went after Obi Wan while the actual Jedi were fighting (thus Anakin wasn't a high priority target, compared to the other superhumans that were charging them), and after he got the crap kicked out of him by Dooku, Yoda came in and saved his butt (though not his hand).

Or the ability to use the Force in the time given, or even his
abilities with the Force.

I assume that we could have support about his skills with the force yeah.
But the speed of using the power ? Everytime we see any use of the force it happens almost instantly when for example , the HSH fast use against Saffron was caused by the great heat inside the mountain and the fireballs and even so, it was not instantly.

Because Ranma chose to create that ice spiral on the ground to presumably amp the power of his HSH the first time, since the next two times he does it during and after this battle, it's practically instantaneous. He created the Hiryuu Korin Dan against Herb almost instantaneously (he first tricked Herb into creating the HSH, but once he was in position, he managed to create it in a split second and whack the Dragon Prince before he could dodge), and when he and his mirror clone used it against Happy/Lucky, and Genma/Soun respectively, they did it without any preamble, strain, setup or delay, and faster than either Genma or the two Happosai level martial artists could react. Anakin ain't stopping him from doing it at will.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Re: Nabiki and finances. Nothing about her supporting the dojo single handedly is ever directly stated, and it would seem somewhat out of character for her, considering some of the crap that she's pulled (selling Ranma into slavery at a Hong Kong casino on a date, selling a fake cure for Akane's coma, selling out the wedding to all the rivals, etc...), but there is some evidence that she actually does care for her family in some way (aiming a pissed off Ranma at herself instead of letting Akane face him, getting mad at him when he made fun of Akane's bust, etc...). She never really displayed any grand-reaching blackmail schemes for wealth, and even once stated that she blew her entire savings on a concert ticket. However, later in that same story, she appeared to have an international business selling napkins that have a topless Ranma-chan on it that gives her a nice sum (she says "The orders from France alone..."), though we're never actually given exact numbers for it, or any direct statements for what she uses them for.

Regardless, in the manga she's never displayed the connections, equipment, competency, or even the ice queen persona that most fanfics ascribe to her. She doesn't have government connections, she's never displayed tech higher than a poloroid camera, she hangs out with friends and flirts/dates often (though usually just because she likes getting gifts and eating expensive dinners for free), she's gotten in over her head on at least one case (where she ended up thinking that Ranma was gonna seriously harm her), and she even flat out lies to get her money (like the time she just ran after Principal Kuno gave her the money to be one of his 3 champions against Ranma and Hinako, or the aforementioned "fake cure for Akane's coma" thing). The only reasons why she's as successful as she is seems to be because no one is willing to prosecute her (extortion, slavery, blackmail, reckless endangerment, slander, fraud, libel, illegal gambling, etc...), or that most of the cast is too emotionally immature to see through her machinations. She's never seen swindling Doctor Tofu (granted, that's probably got to do, at least in part, with him fading into the background fairly early in the series...), Cologne or Happosai (showing that Nabiki is either unable to find anything to blackmail them with, or she at least has the survival instinct that God gave the average mayfly).

Other than Genma's job at Tofu's (which we've never seen him quit from/get fired from, since Tofu just plain dropped out of sight), I believe I remember a scene where Akane mentions that Soun still has students, but I can't remember where (or when exactly these supposed students could possibly find time to train), and we've seen Genma, Soun and Ranma go demon hunting for money on a couple of occassions and it seemed like they were used to that kind of stuff, though I don't imagine that it's a daily, or even weekly, event for them... Ranma managed to win a year's supply of ramen for himself and Genma back in volume 7, though with their appetite they still take the opportunity to eat anything that they feel is safe (anything not made by Akane or Kodachi, since Shampoo only used magical artifacts once when she wasn't being mind controlled) whenever they get the opportunity to. Ranma was a waitress for Cologne for a short period, though its possible that she wasn't getting paid (the waitress position was being advertised, but Cologne seems stingy and Ranma would have been willing to work for free at that point in time...).

As for no one going on a killing rampage in Nerima: Ryouga, in their first major duel, nearly maimed or killed a few dozen students with his umbrella and bandannas when Ranma dodged them. Mousse, in volume 10, threw knives into a crowd of people and woud have killed a lot if it wasn't for the comedic nature of the Ranmaverse ensuring that none of the weapons hit any non-combatant (case in point, one man had 2 knives sticking through a corncob-on-a-stick that he was holding; in real life, the knives would have shoved his arm back and he'd have been stabbed in the face), and threw large amounts of Jusenkyo water all around the place (case in point, if Ranma hadn't acted fast 3 little kids would be cursed to become ducks; as it is, an entire tub of koi are now a tub of ducks). Kuno, when first using his watermelon technique sliced up a lot of things all over the beach, including things that were being held by people, but didn't actually kill anybody despite the fact that he didn't even conciously aim his attacks (this being the only reason why Kuno *might* not be on the list of potential mass murderers, since he didn't even know he could do what he did until he discovered it at that moment).

This isn't even counting how many of the oneshot martial artists (Ryu Kumon, Pansuto Tarou, Kima/Masara/Koruma, Herb/Mint/Lime, Pink/Link, etc...) have more than likely killed at least on person, considering how powerful they are, how quickly they're willing to use their killing attacks (Ryu Kumon didn't even know who Ranma was before he tried to literally tear his heart out, though admittedly the fact that Ranma was effortlessly holding him off might have made him panic) and how they couldn't have possibly been facing Ranma-level opponents until then...

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Drunkard, you forgot that Soun also rents out the dojo occasionally to be used as a meeting place(IE the Tattoo arc where a Women's club rented the dojo).

[The Drunkard Kid]

And there you have found one of the two volumes I have yet to regain...

[The Drunkard Kid]

One last thing: While checking out the script for TPM, I found that Anakin's slavery was first to Gardulla the Hutt, but she lost him and his mom to Watoo betting on podraces when he was three. She was probably a lot meaner than Watoo was (I'm fairly certain he says as much to Padme), but it was from before he could have possibly been large enough to be forced to do any actual work, and the Hutts probably don't do Saotome style training since they want their slaves to actually live long enough to do work...

[ChaosBurnFlame]

And the Warsies fell silent.

[SAMAS]

Okay, we have SB invading SD, SD invading SB, and now CBR is invading SD?

[The Drunkard Kid]

I ain't invading anyone... I just have an instinctual urge to join Ranma threads that aren't out and out flamewars.

[generator_g1]

Okay, we have SB invading SD, SD invading SB, and now CBR is invading SD?

What's CBR ?

[The Drunkard Kid]

Comicbook Rumbles. It's a board that Chaosburnflame, SAMAS and Yogi, myself and several others post on a lot, but it's still not at 100% from the server move, so I've been looking around... I'm wondering what SB is, actually...

[generator_g1]

Comicbook Rumbles. It's a board that Chaosburnflame, SAMAS and Yogi, myself and several others post on a lot, but it's still not at 100% from the server move, so I've been looking around... I'm wondering what SB is, actually...

SB is Spacebattles.com. A lot of the members here at SD.net are also SB members as well as the infamous Darkstar...

[The Drunkard Kid]

Thanks for the info. I've heard of the site, but I'd forgotten about it until now...

[consequences]

Quick question, can anyone here determine approx. how much of a total powerup relative to original strength the combined use of the Super Soba, Ultimate Martial Arts Calligraphy, and battle Dougi would provide?
All I can come up with is 'lots and lots'

[lgot]

And like I showed, Ranma has at least 5-6 times the speed of a peak human in volume 7

Well, you actually argued he could outrun a deliver car, which is not 5-6 time human speed and neither we know the speed of that car.
I showed you the calculations. Your argument is about it was valid or not due the Gravity use. Unless we come to a agreement about the Gravity we both have arguments for speed. There is no point saying “I showed it” and that is why I said there was no point in argument about speed.

Jedi swing slow enough for us to see each individual slash; Kuno swings so fast in volume one that he creates dozens of afterimages simultaneously, and the force from his swings can shatter a 10-20 foot stone pillar at least 20 feet away.

The calculations about speed/Gravity are those I am talking.
Kunou can break things due his technique, not because he swings to fast.
And The speed of Kunou attack’s is more a drawing style, RT makes the attacks moves be a “blur” everytime, no matter how fast it was.

You seemed to be implying that the Jedi Precog indicates that he'd be able to block every shot from Ranma.

No, Sorry, I mean he can feel which direction Ranma will take. Ranma – not his punches – are the “blasts” he will have to block.

Yeah, and when does Ranma even need to consider before he starts insulting anyone that's stupid enough to attack him with insufficient skill and/or power?

Ranma can insult many people. But again, He is never showed great skill at that. Saffron fight for example, that did not worked out, Kiima, that did not worked out.
People like Kunou – Who gets angry with him for something he did not even know about – or Ryouga- Who blame him all his problems – is not a show of great skill to manipulate people with insults.

Shampoo, Ukyou and Kodachi beat him into the ground just because they thought he was hitting on Hinako.

See ? That goes to my point: Ranma did not make them angry because he wanted to with insults – He did without even knowing why and not having such intentions.

Anakin doesn't seem to require any in depth psychological research to piss off. Just dancing around him casually would be more than enough, but tossing in insults to his skill and physical stats would be overkill, considering how angry he got because he thought that Obi Wan didn't respect his skills.

You transform Ranma in master of taunting. And Anakin got berserker for having someone dancing around him ? Be fair.
We see 3 fights of Anakin all the Movies. Just One we seen he going really berserker and we do not see that fight and that only happened because his mother died in his arms.
He was not berserker fighting in the arena and neither against Dooku (he was reckless, but he did not seemed to have any emotional problem). He got very frustrated because of Obi Wan, but that was still a reflex of his mother’s. We do not see Anakin going berserker for any insult or provocation anywhere.

And falling to the Dark Side requires you to lose your hold on your fears and anger, if what Yoda says means anything. Basically, going Vader is like going into the Neko-ken, but without any of the positive benefits.

Changing beliefs does not reduce your willpower. That is pretty evident as Palpatine was evil , goes to the dark side, hold lose fears and angers and did not seemed to have low willpower.
And The Darth Vader to Neko-ken ? He still the same person, holding a lot of control.

And what evidence is there that the Jedi Mind Trick can affect those of strong will (Here's Ben's exact quote from ANH: "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."), or that *any* Padawan was *ever* taught something as easily exploitable as the mind trick before getting their Jedi robes?

The first time we have evidence that the force works on Yoda, since he does not detect Palpatine.
The second is fair. I have no idea. So until having any idea – any of us – I suppose we should just leave it go…

Ranma being able to use his ki in ways that 99% of all martial artists can't isn't a good example of strong will,

Lets summarize – You argue that Ranma high skills of martial arts, ability to control and do all the tricks he does is evidence of Strong Will.
That would be logical IF all the martial artists in Ranma’s HAD to show Strong will to do all the tricks.
But Not Only Happosai, that have no strong will, but others like Ryouga and Genma, all of them can do lot of tricks like or better than Ranma’s and are not example of strong willed characters.
So, The ability to use a technique, the ki, all of the martial arts’s skills in Ranma is not related to Strong will. So , it can not be a evidence to support the idea that Ranma is strong willed.

And exactly what hopes and dreams did he take away from Anakin?

its funny, Anakin wanted to race and Wattoo only allowed because of Qui-Jon bet. Anakin said he wanted to see the stars, to have his mother free, to have his mother with him, and there goes.

Not exactly with the same weapons, but he utterly owned Kima,

I am gladly you did not like the others and when asked about weapon master come with names of a lot of characters that do not use weapon.
Well, Kiima is not a master of any short. He is not even that great, It is pretty clear that only his sneaky tatics and flying maneuvers keep him safe even when he first showed up. After avoiding the egg’s mind control – She can fight hand to hand with Kiima.

Ranma's mastered Martial Arts Tea Ceremony in one night,

He does not mastered it. He learned it, the basically then fought with what he have , adapted to the anything goes.

Ranma mastered Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics

Again no, Ranma fought there, learned the basic and defeated Kodachi – she is not a master of it. That is all. There is very few masters in the usual cast of Ranma, Cologne and Happosai, and arguably Genma and Soun.

[SAMAS]

And like I showed, Ranma has at least 5-6 times the speed of a peak human in volume 7

Well, you actually argued he could outrun a deliver car, which is not 5-6 time human speed and neither we know the speed of that car.
I showed you the calculations. Your argument is about it was valid or not due the Gravity use. Unless we come to a agreement about the Gravity we both have arguments for speed. There is no point saying “I showed it” and that is why I said there was no point in argument about speed.

Assuming that that scooter could at least reach 60 mph, Ranma had casually left something in the dust that was @3 times human peak speed, and he maintained this speed without the slightest effort for several blocks and had a fight at the end of it. And as fast as a 100mph car is, I doubt that it can get behind me so fast that I don't think it's even moved, and my perception speed is nowhere near as fast as Ryouga or Akane's (who can block multiple arrows fired at her from behind without any particular effort; A regular arrow is about 1/3 the speed of sound). Ranma's regular movment speed seems to be a lot higher than 3-4 times peak human, in addition to the ability to make short term blitzes of much greater speed than normal like when he leaves afterimages. It doesn't seem to take much effort, but he doesn't seem to use it for long term jogging.

Geez man, get some new stuff.

Jedi swing slow enough for us to see each individual slash; Kuno swings so fast in volume one that he creates dozens of afterimages simultaneously, and the force from his swings can shatter a 10-20 foot stone pillar at least 20 feet away.

The calculations about speed/Gravity are those I am talking.
Kunou can break things due his technique, not because he swings to fast.
And The speed of Kunou attack’s is more a drawing style, RT makes the attacks moves be a “blur” everytime, no matter how fast it was.

Bullshit. It blure because it's going that fast. Several times throughout the Kuno fights, he attacks at slower speeds, and no blurring is shown.

But that's irrevalent, because we're talking about how it looks in the anime. Kuno's attacks still beat out any Jedi's combat moves, up to and including Yoda.

[quote-"igot"]

You seemed to be implying that the Jedi Precog indicates that he'd be able to block every shot from Ranma.

No, Sorry, I mean he can feel which direction Ranma will take. Ranma – not his punches – are the “blasts” he will have to block.[/quote]

And like we said, by the time Anakin turns around to attack Ranma, Ranma has already hit him at least eight times.

Yeah, and when does Ranma even need to consider before he starts insulting anyone that's stupid enough to attack him with insufficient skill and/or power?

Ranma can insult many people. But again, He is never showed great skill at that. Saffron fight for example, that did not worked out, Kiima, that did not worked out.
People like Kunou – Who gets angry with him for something he did not even know about – or Ryouga- Who blame him all his problems – is not a show of great skill to manipulate people with insults.

Shampoo, Ukyou and Kodachi beat him into the ground just because they thought he was hitting on Hinako.

See ? That goes to my point: Ranma did not make them angry because he wanted to with insults – He did without even knowing why and not having such intentions.

Anakin doesn't seem to require any in depth psychological research to piss off. Just dancing around him casually would be more than enough, but tossing in insults to his skill and physical stats would be overkill, considering how angry he got because he thought that Obi Wan didn't respect his skills.

You transform Ranma in master of taunting. And Anakin got berserker for having someone dancing around him ? Be fair.
We see 3 fights of Anakin all the Movies. Just One we seen he going really berserker and we do not see that fight and that only happened because his mother died in his arms.
He was not berserker fighting in the arena and neither against Dooku (he was reckless, but he did not seemed to have any emotional problem). He got very frustrated because of Obi Wan, but that was still a reflex of his mother’s. We do not see Anakin going berserker for any insult or provocation anywhere.

We're not talking about great skill. Nice strawman, but it doesn't work.

Since you seem to have forgotten, the point is that Anakin is a person given to losing his temper and making rash actions. Ranma's MO, especially if he has the upper hand, is to get his opponent mad and make rash actions. Not that it always works the way he planned.

And falling to the Dark Side requires you to lose your hold on your fears and anger, if what Yoda says means anything. Basically, going Vader is like going into the Neko-ken, but without any of the positive benefits.

Changing beliefs does not reduce your willpower. That is pretty evident as Palpatine was evil , goes to the dark side, hold lose fears and angers and did not seemed to have low willpower.
And The Darth Vader to Neko-ken ? He still the same person, holding a lot of control.

We're not talking about palpatine here, man. We're talking about ANAKIN. [Anakin is the one who has let his arrogance and his feelings for Padame lead him by the nose, which gives Palpatine the weak spot to sink his hooks into him.

="Igot"]

And what evidence is there that the Jedi Mind Trick can affect those of strong will (Here's Ben's exact quote from ANH: "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."), or that *any* Padawan was *ever* taught something as easily exploitable as the mind trick before getting their Jedi robes?

The first time we have evidence that the force works on Yoda, since he does not detect Palpatine.

We already went through this. Palpatine doesn't have to do anything to Yoda to hide his presence from him.

Ranma being able to use his ki in ways that 99% of all martial artists can't isn't a good example of strong will,

Lets summarize – You argue that Ranma high skills of martial arts, ability to control and do all the tricks he does is evidence of Strong Will.
That would be logical IF all the martial artists in Ranma’s HAD to show Strong will to do all the tricks.
But Not Only Happosai, that have no strong will, but others like Ryouga and Genma, all of them can do lot of tricks like or better than Ranma’s and are not example of strong willed characters.
So, The ability to use a technique, the ki, all of the martial arts’s skills in Ranma is not related to Strong will. So , it can not be a evidence to support the idea that Ranma is strong willed.

False Dilemma. That is not the case.

Ranma trying to learn the Tenshin Amaguriken is a matter of speed. The Willpower comes in when he was forcing himself to put his hands in a fire when his body was so hypersensitive to heat, that he felt unbearable pain from touching hot water.

With the Mokou Takabisha, Ranma is generating enough confidence to break through a stone wall.

During the Hiryu Shoten Ha story, Ranma lifted a massive boulder out of sheer will, when his muscles were substantially weaker than a five-year-old boy's.

And exactly what hopes and dreams did he take away from Anakin?

its funny, Anakin wanted to race and Wattoo only allowed because of Qui-Jon bet. Anakin said he wanted to see the stars, to have his mother free, to have his mother with him, and there goes.

Nope. In TPM, he and Sebulba have an argument about a previous race. Not to mention, Anakin had the freedom to build his own racer.

It wasn't total freedom(he was a slave, after all), but it was still a hell of a lot better than the classical Southern enslavement of blacks 400 years ago, or the "White" slavery that goes around nowadays.

Not exactly with the same weapons, but he utterly owned Kima,

I am gladly you did not like the others and when asked about weapon master come with names of a lot of characters that do not use weapon.
Well, Kiima is not a master of any short. He is not even that great, It is pretty clear that only his sneaky tatics and flying maneuvers keep him safe even when he first showed up. After avoiding the egg’s mind control – She can fight hand to hand with Kiima.

Ranma's mastered Martial Arts Tea Ceremony in one night,

He does not mastered it. He learned it, the basically then fought with what he have , adapted to the anything goes.

Ranma mastered Martial Arts Rhythmic Gymnastics

Again no, Ranma fought there, learned the basic and defeated Kodachi – she is not a master of it. That is all. There is very few masters in the usual cast of Ranma, Cologne and Happosai, and arguably Genma and Soun.

The point is, with little or no time to get familiarity with a weapon or style, he can fight on even footing against a person who is either a master of the art, or rediculously proficent at it. Anakin's ten years of training with a lightsaber isn't that big an advantage against Ranma.