The Imperium vs The Empire

[white_rabbit]

Hmmm, Look what I found....


[/quote]Towards the end of the 38th millennium, the famed Adeptus Mechanicus Artisan-Magos Hyus N'dai completed a series of ship designs based around the principle of superfired plasma weaponry. The most common of these, the Tyrant class cruiser, became popular amongst the major shipyards in the 39th millennium. Its superfired plasma batteries are capable of launching a boosted salvo considerably further than comparable cruiser weapon decks, yet still deliver virtually the same weight of fire at close quarters. This had eluded ship designers since the secrets of building very long range ship weaponry had been lost after the Dark Age of Technology.

Draw what conclusions you will, however, please read the last line, which very much supports what I and other 40kers have stated about 40k technology, specifically the Imperium.

[His Divine Shadow]

That doesn't mean it's still gone upwards either?
For all we know if they'd done that 10k years ago the results would have been even better.

Personally I find my calcs on the Night Lords incident vs. the 13h moon bombardment to show a decrease in firepower(from 45TT to 15TT for a lance, even though more weapons than lances where involved in both cases I think) and I was actually quite generous in the latter calc.

So I think it has merit.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

Hmmm, Look what I found....

Towards the end of the 38th millennium, the famed Adeptus Mechanicus Artisan-Magos Hyus N'dai completed a series of ship designs based around the principle of superfired plasma weaponry. The most common of these, the Tyrant class cruiser, became popular amongst the major shipyards in the 39th millennium. Its superfired plasma batteries are capable of launching a boosted salvo considerably further than comparable cruiser weapon decks, yet still deliver virtually the same weight of fire at close quarters. This had eluded ship designers since the secrets of building very long range ship weaponry had been lost after the Dark Age of Technology.

Draw what conclusions you will, however, please read the last line, which very much supports what I and other 40kers have stated about 40k technology, specifically the Imperium.

Gee.. and yet the Murder class cruiser can fire even greater firepower at long range and it was built last during the 37th millenium. So apparently over their technology dropped tremendously, and when one Artisian-Magos completed some designs, they thought they'd recovered DaoT tech when they hadn't even recovered tech lost just 100 years ago.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

Draw what conclusions you will, however, please read the last line, which very much supports what I and other 40kers have stated about 40k technology, specifically the Imperium.

Another interesting tidbit about the Tyrant is something you decided not to include. To quote: In practice, however, the Tyrant's long range firepower lacks sufficient strenth to make it a serious threat to anything larger than an escort-sized vessel."

Oh yeah, It's certainly an impressive "advancement" of tech, isn't it?

The fact is your claims of 40K (specificially Imperium) technology are rediculus and have no backing.

[white_rabbit]

Draw what conclusions you will, however, please read the last line, which very much supports what I and other 40kers have stated about 40k technology, specifically the Imperium.

Another interesting tidbit about the Tyrant is something you decided not to include. To quote: In practice, however, the Tyrant's long range firepower lacks sufficient strenth to make it a serious threat to anything larger than an escort-sized vessel."

Oh yeah, It's certainly an impressive "advancement" of tech, isn't it?

The fact is your claims of 40K (specificially Imperium) technology are rediculus and have no backing.

Uhuh ?

your point ? its still an advancement, and theres plenty more scattered throughout mine and a few others posts...

And the fact of the matter is, a Tyrant class cruisers long range plasma batteries arent as good....but these weapons are on SEVERAL designs of 40k cruiser according to the passage...which dont have a problem with them..

Hell the "Zealous'" long ranged plasma cannons were specifically stated to be the reason why it was able to take out the Battleship "Unjust Memorial" because their extra range!

But nooo, it looks like you have a problem with someone looking at 40k with any other view than " They lost some technology, so they can EVER have anything new"

Which..wait for it....is ridiculous!!


Ships...


MOST OF THE CURRENT FUCKING IMPERIAL FLEET WAS BUILT AFTER THE HERESY!

And horror of horrors, they are actually well able to combat ships built with Dark Age technology, and have systems such as Nova cannon, that Ye Gods.! arent on these other ships!

Oh No!

[Darth_Shinji]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned I haven't finished the thread yet.

40k tech is advancing slowly... unless it has bene contridicted the 2nd edition chaos codex has amply prove of it. One statement has 40k advancement going at "a turtle's pace" and goes on to describe the difference between imperail plasma weapons and chaos plasma weapons. It also tells of wargear that was made after the heresy and so the chaos legions don't have them.. it also tells of weapons that were phased out of the space marine legions.

[DocHorror]

*sigh*

I think that its a common misconception that the technology level of the IoM is low & that they don't understand anything.

The Tech Priest of Mars, the Adeptus Mechanicus, have a very deep understanding of technology & how to build it. Fair enough, they don't make huge leaps in technology all the time. But neither does Star Wars (they also actually seem to go backwards as the films progress).

I fear that 40K is cursed by inconsistent writting & by writers who dont expect every line they write to be analy analysed & subjected to calculations to find out whether or not they are realistic.

[Cpt_Frank]

(they also actually seem to go backwards as the films progress).

No offense but on what facts exactly are you basing this assumption?

[willburns84]

(they also actually seem to go backwards as the films progress).

No offense but on what facts exactly are you basing this assumption?

Probably talking about the lack of autonomous ground combat units, battle droids and the like in the movies. Now, in EU we know there are still battle droids (Dark Force troopers example) and more out there, but again, the point was the movies... Not supporting the previous view, just interpretting it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Probably talking about the lack of autonomous ground combat units, battle droids and the like in the movies. Now, in EU we know there are still battle droids (Dark Force troopers example) and more out there, but again, the point was the movies... Not supporting the previous view, just interpretting it.

Yuu see them plenty enough in the EU and in TESB we have a droid bounty hunter, IG-88

[SirNitram]

*sigh*

I think that its a common misconception that the technology level of the IoM is low & that they don't understand anything.

The Tech Priest of Mars, the Adeptus Mechanicus, have a very deep understanding of technology & how to build it. Fair enough, they don't make huge leaps in technology all the time. But neither does Star Wars (they also actually seem to go backwards as the films progress).

Wow, you talk about misconceptions then you say this.

On what premise do you declare it's going backwards? Because it doesn't look as pretty?(Style Over Substance fallacy ahoy!) Nevermind a Star Destroyer carries hundreds of times the firepower of an Acclamator. Nevermind that the Falcon outruns the Infiltrator in the Tatooine-Core run. Just make a random statement..

BTW, the TIE series and it's rapid advancement is all I need to prove you horribly wrong.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here are some quotes and responses I have from Gordon Rennie, author of Execution Hour:

> I thought ordinary ships could reduce planets to slag?

What would Abaddon need the Planet Killer for, then?

> Well I've been under the impression that ordinary IoM cruisers
>could easily wipe out all life on planets

Again, so why the Planet Killer? Mass bombardment with virus bombs
or cyclotronic torpedoes will wipe out all life on a planet's
surface, but (I think) only space marine fleets are equipped or able
to carry out this kind of extreme Exterminatus action.

>(I've been told that IoM cruisers easily sling out thousands
> of gigatons(a gigaton = 1000 Megatons) worth of energy).

I don't know who your sources for this is, but tell them to get in
touch with the BFG games developers at GW. They don't have any
technical data anywhere near as detailed as this.

Now what was that I was saying about people just piling on those
crazy zeroes..? ;->

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

Uhuh ?

your point ? its still an advancement, and theres plenty more scattered throughout mine and a few others posts...

It's not an advancement if they were capable of building ships with better guns just 100 years before. More like just a brief pause in the slide.

And the fact of the matter is, a Tyrant class cruisers long range plasma batteries arent as good....but these weapons are on SEVERAL designs of 40k cruiser according to the passage...which dont have a problem with them..

And there are SEVERAL designs, such as the Carnage, and the Murder, that feature bigger guns, with better range. and the passage says nothing about the other designs. It makes no mention of the other designs not having problems. It does however say the Tyrant was the most common design and popular. Leading one to believe it's one of the _better_ designs of the series. And yet it still falls short of what was done just a millenium before.

Hell the "Zealous'" long ranged plasma cannons were specifically stated to be the reason why it was able to take out the Battleship "Unjust Memorial" because their extra range!

A piece of fluff from Warp Storm, correct? Well guess what... it just does /not/ add up. The Unjust Memorial is described as a Desolator class. All of a Desolator's weapons have have 1 1/3 times greater range than that of the Tyrant. (Tyrant's max of 45cm Versus the Desolator's 60cm) So why would it be able to out range a Desolator? The fluff piece you speak of also says that the Unjust Memorial launched attack craft from it's launch bays. Guess what? A Desolator has NO launch bays! None! Zip! Zero! Nadda! So how can one take a piece of writing that is so full of holes seriously?

But nooo, it looks like you have a problem with someone looking at 40k with any other view than " They lost some technology, so they can EVER have anything new"

They can make new designs using existing tech, but their tech isn't going anywhere other than backwards

Ships...

MOST OF THE CURRENT FUCKING IMPERIAL FLEET WAS BUILT AFTER THE HERESY!

Guess what.. SO WAS THE CHAOS FLEET!!!

And horror of horrors, they are actually well able to combat ships built with Dark Age technology, and have systems such as Nova cannon, that Ye Gods.! arent on these other ships!

Oh No!

The Chaos ships were not made with DaoT tech. They were made during the Imperium, after the Heresy.

The Repulsive Grand Cruiser was first laid down in the 34th millenium... and they lost the tech to build them.

The Murder class was first laid down in the 33rd millenium, and it's weapons are more powerful than those of the "advancement" of the Tyrant class.

The Slaughter class was laid down in the 34th millenium.. and they lost the tech for them too.

And what is it with this fetish you have for Nova Cannons?

The Nova cannons have existed for /at least/ 2500 years, and potentially much longer. oh, and Torpedoes aren't on most of those other ships either are they? Does that mean the forces of Chaos can't build torpedoes? Of Course not, they don't need so many of them. They can simply out range and out gun the Imperium fleet since they're using ships with tech the Imperium has since lost.

[NecronLord]

The PK is a terror weapon. The pointo of it is to scare the bejeesus out of the other side. You could say if an ISD can BDZ a planet why build the Death Star? Same principle at work.

[NecronLord]

They can simply out range and out gun the Imperium fleet since they're using ships with tech the Imperium has since lost.

So how then did the Imperium win the gothic war?

[His Divine Shadow]

So how then did the Imperium win the gothic war?

Superior numbers I figure.
Didn't Abbadon get what he came for too? The blackstones?

As I understood GA Ancaris reply, the IoM makes up for
the range issue with torpedoes and such.

[NecronLord]

So how then did the Imperium win the gothic war?

Superior numbers I figure.
Didn't Abbadon get what he came for too? The blackstones?

As I understood GA Ancaris reply, the IoM makes up for
the range issue with torpedoes and such.

Humm

that is all i shall say on the matter

[His Divine Shadow]

The gothic war was about Abbadon and his planetkiller was it not? Or was I wrong about that?

[NecronLord]

The gothic war was about Abbadon and his planetkiller was it not? Or was I wrong about that?

Mostly about abaddon getting ahod of some Old-One/Necron Tech

[NecronLord]

More amusingly the Deciever knows where abaddon has put the remaining blackstone fortresses, and he has made it an objective to acquire/destroy them.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Deciever is a C'tan right?

I thought they where chaos, like Abbadon.

Or are the C'tans and their minions the Necrons not aligned to Chaos?

[NecronLord]

The Deciever is a C'tan right?

I thought they where chaos, like Abbadon.

Or are the C'tans and their minions the Necrons not aligned to Chaos?

We are not. We have no psycic powers at all.
The Blackstones were created to dump C'tan into the warp where they would be tormented for all time and their powers would not work.

It didn't happen.

But theres still gonna be some smiting.

[Grand Admiral Ancaris]

So how then did the Imperium win the gothic war?

Help from the Eldar. The Eldar send out scouts trying to find where Abaddon would be headed next, then they told Admiral Ravensburg where he was headed, and let the imperials use some ancient Warp Gates. So The Imperium got ahead of them by 5 days, and when Abaddon and his fleet came out of warp, they were caught outnumbered and by suprise by the Imperium and the Eldar.

[His Divine Shadow]

We are not. We have no psycic powers at all.
The Blackstones were created to dump C'tan into the warp where they would be tormented for all time and their powers would not work.

It didn't happen.

But theres still gonna be some smiting.

Poor C'tan
Why don't their powers work there?

[NecronLord]

We are not. We have no psycic powers at all.
The Blackstones were created to dump C'tan into the warp where they would be tormented for all time and their powers would not work.

It didn't happen.

But theres still gonna be some smiting.

Poor C'tan
Why don't their powers work there?

The C'tan are made of intense em and particale feilds.

Reality is nuts in warp-space

Therefore their powers don't work.