Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[brianeyci]

Okay. You know what? People keep mentioning S. 8472. Too bad the Borg eventually adapted to S. 8472, with the help of the protagonists nonetheless, but they have this tech now.

In 2374, The Doctor was able to modify nanoprobes as an offensive weapon against Species 8472. He reprogrammed them to mimic the alien cells' electrochemical signatures, so that they could evade detection by Species 8472's immune system while continuing to assimilate. These nanoprobes could be delivered inside a photon torpedo or along a phaser beam. {VOY: "Scorpion, Part I, Scorpion, Part II, Prey")

So, before the Borg had to go up and inject S. 8472 with nanoprobes with drones. If we're talking about post-8472 Borg (at full strength), they can now shoot nanoprobes along their disruptor/phaser beams, and fire nanoprobe torpedoes. I don't see how hard it would be if you could program a nanoprobe to "mimic" one kind of immune system that you could program the nanoprobe to "mimic" another kind of immune system. The Borg could have done it before, but they lacked the creativity to think of this tactic. Now that they have this tactic in their repertoire, they will use it against bioships.

Brian

[18-Till-I-Die]

I know, or i think, it goes against the OP but dont you think eventually an alliance would form between the Young Races, Vorlons and Shadows? I mean, the Young Races dont want to die, the First Ones are sworn to 'guard' them and hardly want to die either, so why wouldnt they all get together and just put aside thier Shadow War for the time being. It's not just the First Ones or Young Races being invaded, it's the whole galaxy.

I think eventually someone (on the show, it'd probably be Sheridan) would say, "Look, we dont like you, you dont like us, but god these cyborgs want to assemilate all of us! It's time we start working together." and they'd try to start working together.

If that happened, and they shared their technology just a bit, just a few peices like those hyperspace cloaks, they would pose far more of a threat to the Borg if not defeat them outright IMO. And i dont see any reason why they wouldnt. They'd all loose if the Borg get a foothold, and they'd all win if the Borg are defeated.

[Darth Wong]

Okay. You know what? People keep mentioning S. 8472. Too bad the Borg eventually adapted to S. 8472, with the help of the protagonists nonetheless, but they have this tech now.

So? It still would have been useless against S-8472 if their ship hulls were impermeable to the probes.

[brianeyci]

I think eventually someone (on the show, it'd probably be Sheridan) would say, "Look, we dont like you, you dont like us, but god these cyborgs want to assemilate all of us! It's time we start working together." and they'd try to start working together.

Out of character for the Borg to try and assimilate more than they need to, and out of character for the Vorlons and Shadows to help each other in any meaningful way other than agree not to attack each other. The Borg's sortie into B5 space would just be to collect interesting technology, not to assimilate everybody. The Shadows might even use the chaos assimilation brings -- after all, that's what they do -- to their advantage to further their philosophy (as others have mentioned) of chaos bringing advancement. The Vorlons might use VPK against planets infested with Borg.

Brian

[Bellator]

I recall that when the Third Space aliens invaded, the Shadows didn't help the Vorlons, even though it threathened the whole galaxy.

[brianeyci]

So? It still would have been useless against S-8472 if their ship hulls were impermeable to the probes.

Their hulls were not though. This is more directed at those who insist that S. 8472 proves that the Borg would be defeated by Vorlons/Shadows rather than you (I think your position is that hyperspace gives a huge strategic advantage). If you want the S. 8472 resisted assimilation bullshit, then you've got to accept that Borg now know how to assimilate organic species through firing nanoprobes through their disruptor/phaser and torpedoes.

Brian

[18-Till-I-Die]

To use the altered nanites against the Shadows/Vorlons like they did the Species, they'd have to capture a Shadow or Vorlon and figure out their electrochemical thingy or whatever. Plus the Vorlons are energy, nothing there to assemilate, and the Shadows exist partially in hyperspace, thats how they do that phasing thing, so it's debatable as to weather or not they can be assemilated at all. As for their ships, they'd again have to capture one and figure out it's electrochemical such-and-such first, which may prove difficult. Shadow ships seem to disintegrate when killed, and Vorlons might have all maner of booby traps.

[brianeyci]

To use the altered nanites against the Shadows/Vorlons like they did the Species, they'd have to capture a Shadow or Vorlon and figure out their electrochemical thingy or whatever.

This is not a foolproof defense however. What if they assimilate Centauri, and Londo's detailed scans of Shadows? What if they land drones on some Vorlon/Shadow homeplanet? Kim did it with a tricorder, drones should be able to do it with thier eyepiece scanner. Many things can go wrong. At the very least, it means you can't use S. 8472 for arguing that the Borg would not be able to assimilate the Vorlons/Shadows because... well the Borg can assimilate S. 8472 now.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

Okay. You know what? People keep mentioning S. 8472. Too bad the Borg eventually adapted to S. 8472, with the help of the protagonists nonetheless, but they have this tech now.

Do they? That is not revealed in the canon. Voyager was able to take out a few bioships with the nanoprobes. They never showed voyager actually turning the tech over to the collective.

So, before the Borg had to go up and inject S. 8472 with nanoprobes with drones.

And utterly failed at it as well.

If we're talking about post-8472 Borg (at full strength), they can now shoot nanoprobes along their disruptor/phaser beams, and fire nanoprobe torpedoes.

Where was it ever shown that the nanoprobes could be distributed along an energy beam?

I don't see how hard it would be if you could program a nanoprobe to "mimic" one kind of immune system that you could program the nanoprobe to "mimic" another kind of immune system. The Borg could have done it before, but they lacked the creativity to think of this tactic. Now that they have this tactic in their repertoire, they will use it against bioships.

No limit fallacy.

[Darth Servo]

This is not a foolproof defense however. What if they assimilate Centauri, and Londo's detailed scans of Shadows?

In what episode were these "detailed scans" shown?

What if they land drones on some Vorlon/Shadow homeplanet?

Everyone else who tried that didn't live to tell about it.

Kim did it with a tricorder, drones should be able to do it with thier eyepiece scanner.

Ah so we should assume that every Trek scanner has all the same capabilities as Fed ones?

Many things can go wrong.

Yes but that door swings both ways, something many diehard trekkies are unwilling to admit since their battle plans seem to invariably incorporate the assumption that every variable will swing in Trek's favor.

At the very least, it means you can't use S. 8472 for arguing that the Borg would not be able to assimilate the Vorlons/Shadows because... well the Borg can assimilate S. 8472 now.

And in which episode did the borg ever assimilate an 8472 ship or alien?

[brianeyci]

Do they? That is not revealed in the canon. Voyager was able to take out a few bioships with the nanoprobes. They never showed voyager actually turning the tech over to the collective.

Its been a long time since I watched Scorpion, and I only remember it vaguely, but I believe that they worked on the warhead design with the Borg. And the important thing is not that they have the tech, but that they have the idea. If a Doctor on a Federation vessel can figure it out, the Borg will be able to figure it out, they just didn't have the creativity to do so, and now that they do they will think of it when fighting Vorlons/Shadows.

Where was it ever shown that the nanoprobes could be distributed along an energy beam?

See my quote from Memory Alpha. Since there are no Voyager scripts, I can't confirm this myself, but I suspect it comes directly from a line of dialogue from the episode itself.

No limit fallacy.

They don't need to be able to mimic all immune systems, just the Vorlons/Shadow immune systems, and for those arguing that S. 8472 proves that Vorlons/Shadows would be able to resist assimilation they are conveniently ignoring the fact that the Borg can now assimilate S. 8472.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

In adition to that proof of that the Borg can assimilate the Species 8472, you got to neither The Vorlons or The Shadows have a true physical form (in B5 only another first one could kill a Vorlon (and as far I know nobody has killed a shadow) in one-to-one combat).

[brianeyci]

In what episode were these "detailed scans" shown?

Londo figured out how to scan for Shadows I believe. If he didn't figure out how to scan for Shadows, he wouldn't have been able to avoid their spies and plant the 500 megaton bombs. Granted, its not a detailed scan, but it is a scan and I doubt Londo would have left much to chance. It is not a surefire thing, but neither is the "Species 8472 proves Borg die to bioships" idea.

Everyone else who tried that didn't live to tell about it.

The Borg would use an assimilation "cloud" like the were going to do on Earth (REF: VOY). It would take months/years, but eventually everything would be assimilated.

Ah so we should assume that every Trek scanner has all the same capabilities as Fed ones?

The Borg integrate technology into their collective. If Fed scanners were superior, they would integrate them. It is reasonable. The Borg have assimilated Fed tech after all.

Yes but that door swings both ways, something many diehard trekkies are unwilling to admit since their battle plans seem to invariably incorporate the assumption that every variable will swing in Trek's favor.

Who said I was betting on the nanoprobe idea working. This is a direct response to those who claim S. 8472 kills the Borg when dealing with bioships. I am betting on the numbers, mainly that a Borg has megaton to low gigaton shielding and that a Shadow ship can be taken out by a 12 megaton direct hit which is at best ten seconds of concentrated phaser fire. As of now the only thing the Vorlons/Shadows have going for them is hyperspace.

And in which episode did the borg ever assimilate an 8472 ship or alien?

Who fucking cares, they can do it now, you can't use the S. 8472 point to declare victory for the Vorlons.

Brian

[Gunhead]

In adition to that proof of that the Borg can assimilate the Species 8472, you got to neither The Vorlons or The Shadows have a true physical form (in B5 only another first one could kill a Vorlon (and as far I know nobody has killed a shadow) in one-to-one combat).

Wasn't there a shadow in the sleeper ship they found which was then killed with that PPG-minigun thingie, and whole bunch of security people pumping PPG-bolts into it?
Can't recall the exact episode though.

-Gunhead

[StarshipTitanic]

In adition to that proof of that the Borg can assimilate the Species 8472, you got to neither The Vorlons or The Shadows have a true physical form (in B5 only another first one could kill a Vorlon (and as far I know nobody has killed a shadow) in one-to-one combat).

Wasn't there a shadow in the sleeper ship they found which was then killed with that PPG-minigun thingie, and whole bunch of security people pumping PPG-bolts into it?
Can't recall the exact episode though.

-Gunhead

No, just an ally of some sort that was trying to get to Z'ha'dum for a few centuries.

[Lord Revan]

In adition to that proof of that the Borg can assimilate the Species 8472, you got to neither The Vorlons or The Shadows have a true physical form (in B5 only another first one could kill a Vorlon (and as far I know nobody has killed a shadow) in one-to-one combat).

Wasn't there a shadow in the sleeper ship they found which was then killed with that PPG-minigun thingie, and whole bunch of security people pumping PPG-bolts into it?
Can't recall the exact episode though.

-Gunhead

Like it's already said that thing was an ally of the Shadows (true Shadows look like a cross between a praying mantis and a spider, that thing was bipedal).

[Gunhead]

Oh well, it's been a long time since I watched B5. The thing did look shadowy anyway. Could you tell me the episode? Have to rummage trough my collection and watch it again.

-Gunhead

[Bellator]

(and as far I know nobody has killed a shadow) in one-to-one combat).

didn't Londo have his guards shoot (and kill) Mr.Morden's Shadow companions?

[brianeyci]

didn't Londo have his guards shoot (and kill) Mr.Morden's Shadow companions?

That's the scene I've always wondered about. How did Londo figure out how to scan for cloaked Shadows? He's not an engineer or a scientist, Londo would have to have gotten help, and anyone he asked might have betrayed him to the Shadows or Shadows themselves might have been lurking by. He must have asked for help from someone in his house, who wouldn't betray him, but how would he be sure that Shadows weren't watching while the device was being constructed?

Brian

[Eleas]

Oh well, it's been a long time since I watched B5. The thing did look shadowy anyway. Could you tell me the episode? Have to rummage trough my collection and watch it again.

-Gunhead

Episode 2 season 5, "The Long Dark".

[Darth Servo]

Its been a long time since I watched Scorpion, and I only remember it vaguely, but I believe that they worked on the warhead design with the Borg.

Working with them does not mean they handed over the critical piece of technology. In fact Janeway made it explicitly clear that they would NOT hand it over until they were clear of borg space, even though she and Tuvok were working in the middle of the cube.

And the important thing is not that they have the tech, but that they have the idea.

Like creationists try and use the idea/desire to believe as proof that they're right?

If a Doctor on a Federation vessel can figure it out, the Borg will be able to figure it out,

But that was the whole point of the epsidoe. That the collective could NOT figure it out. The collective doesn't figure anything out for themselves. They only take from others.

they just didn't have the creativity to do so, and now that they do they will think of it when fighting Vorlons/Shadows.

I do so love the way you assume the borg will change their entire nature just because you need them to do so to win an argument.

See my quote from Memory Alpha. Since there are no Voyager scripts, I can't confirm this myself, but I suspect it comes directly from a line of dialogue from the episode itself.

Not canon. I don't have the scripts either but I do know that they never mentioned anything about distributing nanoprobes with phasers in Scorpion and when they encountered the 8472 base that was planning to infiltrate Fed HQ, they armed the torpedos but not phasers.

They don't need to be able to mimic all immune systems, just the Vorlons/Shadow immune systems,

Your argument is dependent on the assumption that Holodoc's ability to think of how to mimic 8472's immune system translates into the collective's ability to mimic any immune system. Thats how you justify being able to mimic species 'x' in totally unrelated sci-fi series 'y'.

and for those arguing that S. 8472 proves that Vorlons/Shadows would be able to resist assimilation they are conveniently ignoring the fact that the Borg can now assimilate S. 8472.

No. YOU are conviently ignoring that there is no canon evidence that Voyager ever turned over the technology to the collective. Later on you even cry out "who fucking cares" on this point.

Londo figured out how to scan for Shadows I believe. If he didn't figure out how to scan for Shadows, he wouldn't have been able to avoid their spies and plant the 500 megaton bombs. Granted, its not a detailed scan, but it is a scan and I doubt Londo would have left much to chance. It is not a surefire thing, but neither is the "Species 8472 proves Borg die to bioships" idea.

You don't need to scan a ship to know where it is. Londo knew where the shadows were stationed on Centauri Prime the old fashioned way. Emperor Cartagia told him precisely where they were. The avoided shadow spies by sending in ground forces at night that were already on the planets surface.

The Borg would use an assimilation "cloud" like the were going to do on Earth (REF: VOY). It would take months/years, but eventually everything would be assimilated.

The Vorlons/shadows didn't let anyone near their homeworlds. Not just landings. Any expedtion anywhere in Vorlon space met with "accidents".

And while the borg are wasting those months/years, the Vorlons/Shadows are bombing borg worlds into dust.

I've never actually heard of this "assimilation cloud" before. Could you provide some details?

The Borg integrate technology into their collective. If Fed scanners were superior, they would integrate them. It is reasonable. The Borg have assimilated Fed tech after all.

Fed scanners are used for scientific investigation. The borg don't investigate.

Who said I was betting on the nanoprobe idea working.

Its your needed contraption for the borg overcomming the advantage of hyperspace.

This is a direct response to those who claim S. 8472 kills the Borg when dealing with bioships. I am betting on the numbers, mainly that a Borg has megaton to low gigaton shielding and that a Shadow ship can be taken out by a 12 megaton direct hit which is at best ten seconds of concentrated phaser fire.

And yet borg weapons didn't even dent the 8472 ship that was obliterated by a low impact with a cube that was far less than megaton range.

As of now the only thing the Vorlons/Shadows have going for them is hyperspace.

And you greatly underestimate how valuable that advantage is since the V/Ss can pick and choose any battle ground they want.

And in which episode did the borg ever assimilate an 8472 ship or alien?

Who fucking cares, they can do it now, you can't use the S. 8472 point to declare victory for the Vorlons.

You don't think its important to have evidence that the borg have a given piece of technology?

We NEVER saw the crew of Voyager hand over the technology to the borg.

[Lord Revan]

didn't Londo have his guards shoot (and kill) Mr.Morden's Shadow companions?

That's the scene I've always wondered about. How did Londo figure out how to scan for cloaked Shadows? He's not an engineer or a scientist, Londo would have to have gotten help, and anyone he asked might have betrayed him to the Shadows or Shadows themselves might have been lurking by. He must have asked for help from someone in his house, who wouldn't betray him, but how would he be sure that Shadows weren't watching while the device was being constructed?

Brian

I think he just ordered his guards to fire at the spot where thinked the Shadows would be.

[Eleas]

didn't Londo have his guards shoot (and kill) Mr.Morden's Shadow companions?

That's the scene I've always wondered about. How did Londo figure out how to scan for cloaked Shadows? He's not an engineer or a scientist, Londo would have to have gotten help, and anyone he asked might have betrayed him to the Shadows or Shadows themselves might have been lurking by. He must have asked for help from someone in his house, who wouldn't betray him, but how would he be sure that Shadows weren't watching while the device was being constructed?

It is very possible that the throne room of the Emperor contains the most sophisticated scanning systems that the Centauri Republic could devise. You want to protect your ruler, or at least, a ruler would want to protect himself from the backstabbing of the Centauri court.

[Darth Servo]

That's the scene I've always wondered about. How did Londo figure out how to scan for cloaked Shadows?

He didn't. He just figured they would be around Morden somewhere. He had guards fire on BOTH sides of Morden but only one guard actually killed a shadow. The other guard's shots just hit the wall.

He's not an engineer or a scientist, Londo would have to have gotten help,

No, he was just the Prime Minister. The highest ranking government official at the time.

[Bellator]

at least it shows the Shadow can be killed quite easily, providing you have an idea of where they are.