If Babylon 5 invaded Star Wars (off topic,sorry)

[Darth Wong]

It could have simply caused a reactor breach, or the weapons systems to explode. The 2MT blast was not enough to destroy the ship.

Irrelevant, since the end effect is the destruction of the ship, regardless of whether much of the energy is contributed by its own poor design. And the idea of them deliberately lowering their defenses to approach a cornered, wounded animal is ridiculous, unless the Minbari are the dumbest people alive.

[fgalkin]

It could have simply caused a reactor breach, or the weapons systems to explode. The 2MT blast was not enough to destroy the ship.

Irrelevant, since the end effect is the destruction of the ship, regardless of whether much of the energy is contributed by its own poor design. And the idea of them deliberately lowering their to approach a cornered, wounded animal is ridiculous, unless the Minbari are the dumbest people alive.

They could have done it to conserve energy.

Also, there is this huge, logic defying surge of dumb luck called the Hand of Sheridan effect.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Servo]

unless the Minbari are the dumbest people alive.

Note that this theory is not necessarily just a joke.

[Master of Ossus]

They could have done it to conserve energy.

Also, there is this huge, logic defying surge of dumb luck called the Hand of Sheridan effect.

Do you have any evidence that the Minbari use an active defense system, especially since they stated that the White Star's defense system was based on VORLON technology, with the implication being that the Sharlin was not equipped with such technology?

[fgalkin]

They could have done it to conserve energy.

Also, there is this huge, logic defying surge of dumb luck called the Hand of Sheridan effect.

Do you have any evidence that the Minbari use an active defense system, especially since they stated that the White Star's defense system was based on VORLON technology, with the implication being that the Sharlin was not equipped with such technology?

No, however they did not have to use an active defense system. They might have put their reactors in a failsafe mode during combat to prevent accidents from happening and they did not do it then. This is speculation, we will never know the truth.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

No, however they did not have to use an active defense system. They might have put their reactors in a failsafe mode during combat to prevent accidents from happening and they did not do it then. This is speculation, we will never know the truth.

Appealing to uncertainty. We saw the events, you are attempting to introduce unknowns in an attempt to cast ambiguity on it. It is a perfectly viable explanation to say that the burst of hard radiation vapourized a thin layer of material off the surface of the ship and destroyed equipment through the open gunports, causing varied types of damage throughout the ship, and the cumulative damage from the second 2MT nuke caused its reactor to blow. There is no reason to conclude that this would not work on another ship.

You can't appeal to uncertainty and demand respect for an alternate theory which relies upon the existence of active defense systems that are not necessary in order to explain the situation and have not even been shown to exist; ever heard of Occam's Razor?

[fgalkin]

I'm not claiming that this is what happened. All I'm saying is that the matter isn't all clear like some people put it. All we know is that there was a 2 MT nuke, and it destroyed a Sharlin. We do not know how or why. There can be infinite speculation. All I've done is pointed out a theory that could very well take place. It has no proof to it, but neither does yours. It's all speculation.

I'm not claiming anythihng, I'm just saying its ambiguoas, that's all.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Enlightenment-alternate]

unless the Minbari are the dumbest people alive.

The Minbari have ridged and/or spiked foreheads, a feudal system of government, blather endlessly about honor, have a preference for melee weapons and have a massive god complex. Gee, this sounds really familiar, doesn't it?

Minbari are just Klingons with the serial numbers filed off and no intelligence added.

[beyond hope]

So how do you explain a ramming attack from a Starfury going right through the top fin of a Sharlin, Fgalkin?

[fgalkin]

So how do you explain a ramming attack from a Starfury going right through the top fin of a Sharlin, Fgalkin?

1)The fins have less armor than the main body of the cruiser.

2) Sharlin's armor does not stop kinetic impacts very well

3)An effects glitch in ITB.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Wong]

All I've done is pointed out a theory that could very well take place. It has no proof to it, but neither does yours. It's all speculation.

I feel like I'm arguing with an "intelligent design" creationist. For the second time, see Occam's Razor. Your theory is irrational because it requires extra factors which are unnecessary.

[Darth Wong]

So how do you explain a ramming attack from a Starfury going right through the top fin of a Sharlin, Fgalkin?

1)The fins have less armor than the main body of the cruiser.

2) Sharlin's armor does not stop kinetic impacts very well

3)An effects glitch in ITB.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

ROTFLMAO!!! Do all Fivers do this?

[SyntaxVorlon]

Thank you for bringing up Occam's Razor.
But remember, when you've eliminated impossible, then what remains, no matter how improbable, is true.
If an asteroid is moving at 400 m/s at an ISD which is accelerating in pursuit of an enemy craft, what force will the asteroid exert on the ISD? Will it cause major damage to the ISD?
Will it cause a much larger object which is expending vast amounts of power in continued acceleration to be slowed?
Will, the ISD being SUCH a flimsy craft, be bounced off into the asteroid field?
Will a 20 meter wide rock cause such stress on the superstructure around the shield generator(assuming kinetic force from the shields is absorbed by the generator as kinetic stress and is not transformed into another form of energy)?

If a small asteroid can cause so much stress on SW shields as to damage them significantly or severly hamper ships which have the bad luck of encountering them at high velocities, then why are NO SW ships equiped with railguns?

I was initially trying to present a paradox, if ISDs are so powerful why would they be hampered by relatively small rocks?
Dth. Wong, you answered by saying that the object in question, according to Newtons Third Law, would result in an action that would warrent use of energy weapons. That even with the vast power of an ISDs engines and shields, a 20 meter asteroid would be worrying.

fgalkin:
Here is a url go here and you'll find in depth information on many things
www.babtech-onthe.net

Including Minbari armor ratings and such things very useful.
Also, Wong, the Minbari, unless you did not notice, are very very arrogant, especcially since they had not lost ONE capital ship in the war so far, aside from those attacked initially. They also routinely attacked Earth Force distress beacons, opening up jump points nearby, and destroying the survivors, leaving nothing, they would have not suspected a suprise attack after becoming almost robotic in this practice.

[fgalkin]

All I've done is pointed out a theory that could very well take place. It has no proof to it, but neither does yours. It's all speculation.

I feel like I'm arguing with an "intelligent design" creationist. For the second time, see Occam's Razor. Your theory is irrational because it requires extra factors which are unnecessary.

This is called "personal bias". We all have it. I, as a Fiver, want to believe something that makes the B5 universe seem tougher. It is a natural human reaction.

As for your second post, yes, we Fivers get rather annoyed and illogical (some get homicidal) when our universe is attacked.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[beyond hope]

It's not very good at repelling the weapons fire of Earthforce ships either, judging from the fact that they manage to kill Dukhat despite him being within the more heavily armored center section.

[Durandal]

Also, I believe someone proved that 2MT would not be enough to destroy the Sharlin.

That was outofstep, who supposedly "proved" it by assuming that the Sheridan didn't know how to read and then assuming that the Sharlin's displacement must have been brought about by the nuke, even though the resultant momentum and energy were disastrously inconsistent with other observations of EA firepower. The explanation most consistent with all the evidence is that the EM pulse fucked with the Sharlin's maneuvering thrusters.

[fgalkin]

It's not very good at repelling the weapons fire of Earthforce ships either, judging from the fact that they manage to kill Dukhat despite him being within the more heavily armored center section.

He was killed by being hit on the head with falling debris. The cruiser was not destroyed, nor did it take any serious damage.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[beyond hope]

Falling debris knocked loose by what?!

[Darth Servo]

Thank you for bringing up Occam's Razor.
But remember, when you've eliminated impossible, then what remains, no matter how improbable, is true.

And you haven't eliminated anything.

If an asteroid is moving at 400 m/s at an ISD which is accelerating in pursuit of an enemy craft, what force will the asteroid exert on the ISD? Will it cause major damage to the ISD?

Depends on how big the asteroid is.

Will it cause a much larger object which is expending vast amounts of power in continued acceleration to be slowed?

A little. How much depends on the mass of the two objects invlved.

Will, the ISD being SUCH a flimsy craft, be bounced off into the asteroid field?

The ISD is NOT flimsy.

Will a 20 meter wide rock cause such stress on the superstructure around the shield generator(assuming kinetic force from the shields is absorbed by the generator as kinetic stress and is not transformed into another form of energy)?

Any physical impact will cause stress on the shield generator but a 20 meter rock will not cause sufficient stress to seriously damage the ship.

If a small asteroid can cause so much stress on SW shields as to damage them significantly or severly hamper ships which have the bad luck of encountering them at high velocities, then why are NO SW ships equiped with railguns?

No 20 meter rock has ever been observed seriously damaging an ISD.

I was initially trying to present a paradox, if ISDs are so powerful why would they be hampered by relatively small rocks?

They're not.

Including Minbari armor ratings and such things very useful.
Also, Wong, the Minbari, unless you did not notice, are very very arrogant, especcially since they had not lost ONE capital ship in the war so far, aside from those attacked initially. They also routinely attacked Earth Force distress beacons, opening up jump points nearby, and destroying the survivors, leaving nothing, they would have not suspected a suprise attack after becoming almost robotic in this practice.

As I recal ITB, the dialogue only stated that the incident in question was the only victory in the war. That does not mean that the Black Star was the only Minbari cap ship lost in the war.
[/quote]

[Ender]

Syntax: Hurry up with the answer so I can move on to asking Wong about it in relation to ICS without giving the answer away.

[Enlightenment-alternate]

Falling debris knocked loose by what?!

Concentrated brainbugium. Failing debris is the B5 version of Trek's exploding consoles.

[beyond hope]

Unfortunately you have to deal with the resulting mess. Believe me, I'd love it if Earthforce could stomp the crap out of the Feddies... wishing so, unfortunately, does not make it so. (I have most of the 4th and 5th seasons of B5 residing on my hard drive if it tells you what I think of the show.)

[SyntaxVorlon]

Yes damage to the actual superstructure of the ship happens in B5 oh my!
The Minbari ship was severely crippled by the attack, and if you saw the movie, the EA cruisers pumped lots of fire into the minbari hulls.

Depends on how big the asteroid is.

I started on this topic with the 20 meter wide asteroid that the ISD blew up in the pursuit of the MF in the Hoth Asteroid belt.

A little. How much depends on the mass of the two objects invlved.

Yes but this is a miniscule rock compared to the ISD, it would NOT have been so great a threat, as to warrent destruction. And it is stated, time and again, that Imperials like complete efficiancy.

The ISD is NOT flimsy.

This, Dth. Wong, is why I label my jokes. Note: EMPHASIS!

Quote:
I was initially trying to present a paradox, if ISDs are so powerful why would they be hampered by relatively small rocks?

They're not.

If they are not, then why did the imperials shoot at them?
This is the conflict in logic here, they had to feel it necessary to track and destroy a 20 meter wide rock, while in pursuit of a small, less powerful, ship. My point here is that in order for it to become an issue, then they would have not been as powerful or as resiliant as is sometimes stated.

The fact is if asteroids could easily make it through an ISDs shields then why are railguns completely not used on any ships, and ion beams are?

As I recal ITB, the dialogue only stated that the incident in question was the only victory in the war. That does not mean that the Black Star was the only Minbari cap ship lost in the war.

This was the only victory, and the first time a Minbari vessel had been destroyed, later in the war, kamikaze tactics were used to kill Minbari ships, ramming cruisers into ships leaves a great deal of damage.[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

Thank you for bringing up Occam's Razor.
But remember, when you've eliminated impossible, then what remains, no matter how improbable, is true.
If an asteroid is moving at 400 m/s at an ISD which is accelerating in pursuit of an enemy craft, what force will the asteroid exert on the ISD?

The calculations for the impact are on my website already. They're not difficult. It must decelerate to zero relative velocity during the time of impact.

Will it cause major damage to the ISD?

If the reaction forces cause the tower shield generator to be torn loose from its moorings or damaged, then yes, at least to the immediate area of the impact (since the captain was seen onscreen after the impact, the damage is obviously localized).

Will it cause a much larger object which is expending vast amounts of power in continued acceleration to be slowed?

Irrelevant. No one was talking about the ISD being knocked off-course.

Will, the ISD being SUCH a flimsy craft, be bounced off into the asteroid field?

Strawman again. You're just making yourself look stupid now.

Will a 20 meter wide rock cause such stress on the superstructure around the shield generator(assuming kinetic force from the shields is absorbed by the generator as kinetic stress and is not transformed into another form of energy)?

The asteroid was much larger than 20 metres. There is no such thing as "kinetic stress". We are talking about reaction forces and Newton's Third Law. And finally, it is not an "assumption" that the reaction force must exist as a force; it is a law of physics. Accept it.

If a small asteroid can cause so much stress on SW shields as to damage them significantly or severly hamper ships which have the bad luck of encountering them at high velocities, then why are NO SW ships equiped with railguns?

It doesn't occur to you that railguns have many practical limitations of their own?

I was initially trying to present a paradox, if ISDs are so powerful why would they be hampered by relatively small rocks?

A paradox based on ignorance of elementary physics.

Dth. Wong, you answered by saying that the object in question, according to Newtons Third Law, would result in an action that would warrent use of energy weapons. That even with the vast power of an ISDs engines and shields, a 20 meter asteroid would be worrying.

70 metres asteroid. And yes, impacts of many such objects would be worth worrying about. The mass of a 70 metre wide solid asteroid is easily as great as a corvette or light cruiser, and it seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that a ship cannot ignore hundreds of impacts from light cruisers ramming into it, without concluding that energy weapons which would actually impart LESS momentum to the ship would be deflected by its defensive systems. Your inability to recognize basic physics is not my problem.

Also, Wong, the Minbari, unless you did not notice, are very very arrogant, especcially since they had not lost ONE capital ship in the war so far, aside from those attacked initially. They also routinely attacked Earth Force distress beacons, opening up jump points nearby, and destroying the survivors, leaving nothing, they would have not suspected a suprise attack after becoming almost robotic in this practice.

It doesn't matter; these mythical "defense systems" are not known to exist. There is no reason to surmise that they do, and certainly no reason to pretend that a known incident "doesn't count" because of the surmised existence of these mythical defense systems which they just hadn't bothered turning on in a combat situation against a wounded, cornered animal. As Durandal once said, Fivers have a nasty habit of complaining that their dicks aren't fully erect yet, when they lose measurement contests.

[Darth Wong]

I started on this topic with the 20 meter wide asteroid that the ISD blew up in the pursuit of the MF in the Hoth Asteroid belt.

Yet you use its mass when discussing a collision known to cause damage even though we saw several such asteroids impacting harmlessly off the hull of an ISD in TESB.

This, Dth. Wong, is why I label my jokes. Note: EMPHASIS!

You still seem to be unaware of the stipulation that jokes are normally supposed to be funny.

This is the conflict in logic here, they had to feel it necessary to track and destroy a 20 meter wide rock, while in pursuit of a small, less powerful, ship. My point here is that in order for it to become an issue, then they would have not been as powerful or as resiliant as is sometimes stated.

We can see asteroids of that size hitting the ship's underside without causing any damage, and being vapourized in a white flash by its shields. Your speculation is based on ignorance of physics and ignorance of fatigue failure mechanisms and equipment wear concerns (the most obvious reasons to shoot at asteroids below the stress limit, as any idiot with even a remotely mechanical inclination would know), and it is falsified by observation.

The fact is if asteroids could easily make it through an ISDs shields then why are railguns completely not used on any ships, and ion beams are?

Again, argument in defiance of contradictory observation.