Andromeda Systems Commonwealth vs Galactic Empire

[omegaLancer]

Whiles scouts may not have found trace of the empire, I doubt that they have fully explore all the near by galaxies. The Empire Galaxy may not be on a known slip route, plus the galaxy that the Empire occupies is surrounded by hostile races....

It could be that any scout ships ran into one of these hostile races and decided that it may not be worth mapping out galaxy...

We seen from the empire strike back, the rebel fleet observing a Galaxy, very likily their own.. So Extra Galactic travel is not unknown, and due to emptiness of space between galaxies, hyper drive would work at rates many time their normal value... Even maps of SW galaxy show hyperspace routes that allow for rapid travel between systems that connected by them..

My computation were base on the rate of travel between Alderaan and Tantorine..see my earily post on the subject..

[Crossover_Maniac]

[Q]Imagine the potential ally the Commonwealth would be for them; it's nearly as large as the Empire,[/Q]

The commonwealth is 1/50th the size of the Empire or so, remember rommie saying 1.5 million worlds or so? The Empire has 51 million worlds.

When, did the Empire get 51 million worlds? All of the books says 12 million. Don't tell me 12 million worlds is enough to beat the Commonwealth.

[Q]At that point the Empire is going to be slowly whittled away by the Commonwealth[/Q]

Hardly since the commonwealth doesn't has enough firepower to meet imperial ships except when they outnumber them quite a bit, they are going to have a helluva tough time doing JS to the Empire.

If the Hoth asteroids can do damage to Imperial Star Destroyers, what do you think the .9c projectile weapons are going to do to them?

Their range advantage isn't all that either,

From The Official FAQ for alt.tv.andromeda:

The Andromeda has 40 ELS (Electromagnetic Launch System) missile tubes. These are devices which use electromagnets to accelerate a missile, which saves fuel for later terminal maneuvers and gives the missile a higher final velocity than its onboard engines could without such assistance. The missiles can accellerate on their own at a rate of several thousand gravities, and have an engagement envelope of several light-minutes. Each missile usually does not have much of a warhead as such, but by the time it hits its target, it is travelling at around nine tenths of the speed of light, so the kinetic force of its impact is on the order of several megatons.

Even at 1.5 light minutes, the offensive missiles has a range of 27,000,000 kilometers.

especially not with Imperial jamming

Even the Than jamming devices only partial blinded the Andromeda in the episode, "Dance of the Mayflies".

and the fact that PSP's are not that bad at hitting their ships either(propagates at .4-5c or so), and they are slow compared to turbolasers.
It's going to be a slaughter for the CW and I most sincerely doubt they are going to have any major victories except when they meet lone small ships.

I remember that episode. Yeah, the Magog tagged Andromeda with the PSP's AFTER the ship's AI malfunctioned, send the Andromeda on a mission already completed three centuries ago, try killing the crew, and flew right next to the Magog worldship. Yeh, a good gage of the GHC's abilities

[Crossover_Maniac]

Whiles scouts may not have found trace of the empire, I doubt that they have fully explore all the near by galaxies. The Empire Galaxy may not be on a known slip route, plus the galaxy that the Empire occupies is surrounded by hostile races....

You're speculating on the meaning of 'explore'. Unless, it's said otherwise, 'explore' means more than just taking a spin around the block, look around, haul tail, and never come back.

We seen from the empire strike back, the rebel fleet observing a Galaxy, very likily their own.. So Extra Galactic travel is not unknown, and due to emptiness of space between galaxies, hyper drive would work at rates many time their normal value... Even maps of SW galaxy show hyperspace routes that allow for rapid travel between systems that connected by them..

There was only one mention of travel to other galaxies. One. And that was considered a deep exploration mission, as in extremely long distance to uncharted territory. In the Andromeda univeres, a similar journey would be called 'routine travel'.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Fine then we starve the Commonwealth ships by attacking there fleet resuply vessels after all even Andromeda needs ammo and spare parts and how vulnerable will the transports be?Even with Slipstream they will need to work out transfer points and the ships wont be moving while being supplied ,escorts will have to do the work but still they can blow up the freighters .

Hyperdrive and slipstream are two different things. You'd have to catch a ship between slipstream jumps before you could do anything to their supply lines.

[Renewed_Valour1]

The rebellion would have to be alive for that to happen, the only reason they survived in the movies was because of extreme luck and the Emperors convoluted plan to get Skywalker on his side, now priorities will change, the rebellion will be quickly extuingished, and then there is the problem of the rebels contacting the CW,

The High Guard isn't a bunch of inept fools. They aren't going to come charging into the Star Wars Galaxy like a cavalry charge as their first action. Rather they'll turn Argosy Special Operation posing as natives lose on the Empire to gather intelligence and find allies. It may take them a few weeks or months to find the information while they avoid heavily controlled Imperial areas and not rousing Imperial suspicion while they contact the Rebellion and other groups.

or them actually wanting to help the Commonwealth, why on Earth would they want to help an unknown extra galatic force to attack the Empire? Especially if the Commonwealth goes and uses those nova-bombs or maxim charges.

Again the Commonwealth isn't the Empire. They sure aren't going to use strategic weaponry unless the Empire uses it against them first. As for why the Rebels would aid the Commonwealth let me see very large democratic Commonwealth offers to help get rid of very large oppressive Empire. A single look around the Commonwealth by the higher-ups in the Rebel Alliance should convince them that the Commonwealth is a hell of a lot better to deal with than the Emperor and his lackeys. Anyway most of the plans for sensors and shields could probably be bought or acquired through other means.

The commonwealth is 1/50th the size of the Empire or so, remember rommie saying 1.5 million worlds or so?

Member worlds being the operative term. We know that in Hunt's Restored Commonwealth the Sabra Jaguar are a single member of the Commonwealth. Yet they control many other planets at least into the dozens or the hundreds for them to rival the Drago Kasov. The same may have been the case for the Old Commonwealth; that many member worlds may have had many other worlds under their jurisdiction. We know the Than all ready had a large sector of space carved out for themselves when they joined the Commonwealth.

Hardly since the commonwealth doesn't has enough firepower to meet imperial ships except when they outnumber them quite a bit, they are going to have a helluva tough time doing JS to the Empire.

I'll get back to this later with more but a quick note.

I think you're vastly underestimating the firepower of the AP cannons. The Maru's relatively small tanks contain enough AP to destroy a small planet according The Belly of the Beast". Now a Heavy Cruiser according to the science advisor can empty its AP tanks in short time with continuous fire. We know from "The Prince" that Andromeda can depopulate a planet in a few minutes of continuous fire and the most likely answer is again the AP cannons.

[omegaLancer]

Actual the problem is two fold. Turbolaser have a max range of 75 space units ( a space unit being equal to 470,600km) which means it far outdistant AP cannon that has a listed range of 6 light seconds..

Also when operating at the range of less than 6 lsec the Andromeda can no longer use her primary offensive missiles and must switch over to he defensive rounds that donot have the yields that the offensive batteries have and would find herself out gun...

In " In dance of the mayflies" ECM allow the Than fighters to close from a distant of several light minutes without coming under fire from the Andromeda missile batteries. by the time Andromeda was able to obtain weapon lock, the fighters where within range of energy weapon ( under 6 light seconds) where they were capable of inflicting severe damage to Andromeda. If the Imperial ECM have a similiar effect than the Andromeda would have to either close to a range where she can burn thru the Jamming or fire her missiles with out target lock.

One can see in "Bunker Hill" the Andromeda firing entire volleys against enemy ships( this happen twice, first in the beginning of the episode against a fighter, and again during the main battle) before scoring a hit and what appears to be fairily close range, this most likily is due to ECM bein used against them and should demostrate the fact that when ECM is used by both side both range and accurarcy are effective...

Hi speed kinetic weapons are not unknown in SW universe, in "Shield of lies" a hyper velocity gun was use by obrital space station against NR ships.. The gun fire projectiles at close to speed of light, and they prove no more effective than standard turbo lasers.Rail guns, Gauss cannon and mass slinger where also very common but became out mode in comparison with energy weapons..

Also Concussion missiles are design to deliver a Kinectic type blast against target, ( In Novelization of Empire strike back, the striking meteors where discribe as hitting like multi megaton concussion missiles). While these missile can inflict massive harm against unshielded ship, easily breaching the heaviest of Armor, they are ineffective against shielded vessels. This is why in AOTC, Slave one didnot fire her concussion missile until her lasers had drop the jedi fighter shields. And it yield is about 5 time that of standard KE missile...

At max, with firing multiwarhead version of the Offensive missiles, the Andromeda ( or any XMS) can only deliver 30 GT ( 6GT with single warhead) worth of damage a second, not even the output of a single medium turbolaser.

As for Argosy Special Operation , since they could not even figure out that a large arm uprising was about to destroy the common wealth ( over 100000 ships where buildt, arm and moved in to position to over run the commonwealth) how could they even begin operation against the Empire un seen.

Not that the Imperial intelligent agency was inept, the only reason that the rebel had gotten any information about the original deathstar ( and the second deathstar) was due to the fact that the Emperor himself arrange for it, should be more than a match for the Argosy Special Operation...

As for being not like, the common wealth had enemies from both within and without to compete with and cannot claim that they would have better internal security than the empire. And the empire could most likily find allies with the magog and the Kalderon ( they would make great storm troopers) .

Since you stated that the Commonwealth scouts had never come in contact with the empire, then we must assume when they do meet it would be a result of some stellar event ( A worm hole), so if this the case, both side would have rapid access to at least one galaxy of the common wealth and the SW galaxy

[His Divine Shadow]

Kiss my ass.

Not my bloody fault you can't keep up.

Actually, in the movies, the invisible part of the turbolaser seldom ever outraces the visible bolt and only by a small margin. And as you know, in canon, movies trumps technical manuels.

There is no contradiction, you obviously don't know about dwell time or any such principle.

But even if it the turbolasers uses massless particles, the AG fields of the CW vessels can counter the gravity of a black hole (though, not completely, otherwise, Dylan would have never been trapped in the black hole in the first place). So, the AG fields can provide some protection.

Oh please, don't you know anything about physics? Thats not anywhere near what is required to actually bend light.
The AG fields provide zero protection from TL's

[His Divine Shadow]

[Q]The High Guard isn't a bunch of inept fools. They aren't going to come charging into the Star Wars Galaxy like a cavalry charge as their first action. Rather they'll turn Argosy Special Operation posing as natives lose on the Empire to gather intelligence and find allies. It may take them a few weeks or months to find the information while they avoid heavily controlled Imperial areas and not rousing Imperial suspicion while they contact the Rebellion and other groups[/Q]

The High Guard could have fooled me, and they would quickly be detected, please a slipstream vessel, even if it landed at tatooine it would attract attention.
And then there is the matter of fact that the Emperor would sense such a thing in the force and take the appropriate action, like killing off the rebels, building up his fleet and so on, and they can do that much much faster than the CW.

[Q]Again the Commonwealth isn't the Empire. They sure aren't going to use strategic weaponry unless the Empire uses it against them first. As for why the Rebels would aid the Commonwealth let me see very large democratic Commonwealth offers to help get rid of very large oppressive Empire. A single look around the Commonwealth by the higher-ups in the Rebel Alliance should convince them that the Commonwealth is a hell of a lot better to deal with than the Emperor and his lackeys. Anyway most of the plans for sensors and shields could probably be bought or acquired through other means.[/Q]

Yes they are just going to walse in there in secret and the Empire is not going to do the exact same thing back?
Once they have their shields and suc installed just like that without any problems whatsoever[/sarcasm] the Empire will know all their weaknesses and technology in return, they have their own intelligence too.

Then they will have those long range missiles installed without any problems and tipped with Proton warheads to bust the new shield systems, wich I doubt are going to be as good as their imperial counterparts.

[Q]Member worlds being the operative term. We know that in Hunt's Restored Commonwealth the Sabra Jaguar are a single member of the Commonwealth. Yet they control many other planets at least into the dozens or the hundreds for them to rival the Drago Kasov. The same may have been the case for the Old Commonwealth; that many member worlds may have had many other worlds under their jurisdiction. We know the Than all ready had a large sector of space carved out for themselves when they joined the Commonwealth.[/Q]

There where never that many different factions in the CW, there where a few big ones, it's quite clear that Rommie included all the worlds in the CW, not the member factions, Sabra Jaguar is one large faction and all those worlds would be counted as member worlds, just because they happened to mention only the faction at that time doesn't mean that each faction only numbers one in the 1.5 million worlds. I think you're leaping onto some really big assumptions about the CW's size.

[Q]I think you're vastly underestimating the firepower of the AP cannons. The Maru's relatively small tanks contain enough AP to destroy a small planet according The Belly of the Beast". Now a Heavy Cruiser according to the science advisor can empty its AP tanks in short time with continuous fire. We know from "The Prince" that Andromeda can depopulate a planet in a few minutes of continuous fire and the most likely answer is again the AP cannons[/Q]

Even if I am, they are not going to be anywhere near TL levels, or else no other CW ship would survive a single AP shot, heck that big CW ship, the deep space standoff whatever died from a couple of missiles.

Many things can be considered small planets and it would not take gigantic energy reqirements to blow them up.
An ISD could also depopulate a planet in a few minutes, and thats just using flakbursts and just killing people, now a couple of dreadnaughts and corvettes were supposed to slag the crust of Nar Shaadda in 15 minutes, and Nar Shaadda is covered in one big city with many towers reaching out into orbit.

AP shots are rather ineffective on SW shields too, they need to interact with matter, so they are of no use really except on unshielded targets.

[His Divine Shadow]

When, did the Empire get 51 million worlds? All of the books says 12 million. Don't tell me 12 million worlds is enough to beat the Commonwealth.

Twelve million worlds is more than enough to beat the commonwealth, even if the Empire had less worlds they have better tech and indusry and more population.

If the Hoth asteroids can do damage to Imperial Star Destroyers, what do you think the .9c projectile weapons are going to do to them?

This old fallacy again, I've never ever seen an asteroid damage a fully functional ISD with it's shields up, I've only seen one with it's shields down and who's bridge armor held against the asteroid.
The projectile weapons will do jack shit in other words.

Even at 1.5 light minutes, the offensive missiles has a range of 27,000,000 kilometers.

And according to the BTM the Superlaser has a range of 47,000,000 kilometers, in Rebel Stand a capital fired on a worldship from outside the solar system.

Even the Than jamming devices only partial blinded the Andromeda in the episode, "Dance of the Mayflies".

Not imperial jamming devices though, those even distort space-time(ANH).

I remember that episode. Yeah, the Magog tagged Andromeda with the PSP's AFTER the ship's AI malfunctioned, send the Andromeda on a mission already completed three centuries ago, try killing the crew, and flew right next to the Magog worldship. Yeh, a good gage of the GHC's abilities

And Jaeger had no problem putting a good sized hole through Andromeda either, and she didn't suffer any problems at all then.
Nor was there anything wrong with Andromedas capabilities either during the mission.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Kiss my ass.

Not my bloody fault you can't keep up.

Actually, in the movies, the invisible part of the turbolaser seldom ever outraces the visible bolt and only by a small margin. And as you know, in canon, movies trumps technical manuels.

There is no contradiction, you obviously don't know about dwell time or any such principle.

So, now massless particles stand still and slow down to speeds less than c. Massless particles always travel at c.

But even if it the turbolasers uses massless particles, the AG fields of the CW vessels can counter the gravity of a black hole (though, not completely, otherwise, Dylan would have never been trapped in the black hole in the first place). So, the AG fields can provide some protection.

Oh please, don't you know anything about physics? Thats not anywhere near what is required to actually bend light.
The AG fields provide zero protection from TL's

You can't possibly be that stupid. The gravity of a black hole not only can bend light, it also traps it if it goes into the event horizon. Even the gravity of the sun can bend light. That's how general relativity was proven. The apparent position of a star was shifted when its light passed near the sun. This was observes during a solar eclipse in 1919. And a AG field can counter the gravity of a black hole.

[Crossover_Maniac]

When, did the Empire get 51 million worlds? All of the books says 12 million. Don't tell me 12 million worlds is enough to beat the Commonwealth.

Twelve million worlds is more than enough to beat the commonwealth, even if the Empire had less worlds they have better tech and indusry and more population.

And yet you felt the need to add 39 million extra worlds to the Empire.

If the Hoth asteroids can do damage to Imperial Star Destroyers, what do you think the .9c projectile weapons are going to do to them?

This old fallacy again, I've never ever seen an asteroid damage a fully functional ISD with it's shields up, I've only seen one with it's shields down and who's bridge armor held against the asteroid.
The projectile weapons will do jack shit in other words.

ROTFLMAO!!! Let's go back to the ESB movie and see just how much of a threat was the Hoth asteroids:

PIETT
Our ships have sighted the
Millennium Falcon, lord. But...
it has entered an asteroid field
and we cannot risk...

VADER
(interrupting)
Asteroids do not concern me,
Admiral. I want that ship and
not excuses.

PIETT
Yes, lord.

Piett doesn't seem to eager to fly through the puny Hoth asteroid field. Maybe he know something you don't, that ISD's don't handle impacts too well, and none of those asteroids were going over 1000 m/s relative to the ISD's. This is opposed to a projectile going .9c.

NEEDA
(in hologram)
... and that, Lord Vader, was the
last time they appeared in any of
our scopes. Considering the amount
of damage we've sustained, they
must have been destroyed.

Captain Needa confirms the ISD's took damage in the asteroid fields. If they can't impacts from slow moving astroids with a large cross-section (the smaller the cross-section, the more sheer stress that is placed on the section of the shields impacted). And don't tell me that the ISD's couldn't handle the Hoth asteroid from prior damage during the 'Battle of Hoth'. Because they was no battle. The so-call battle consisted of cover fire by the Rebels while they haul ass out of the system. If that was considered a battle by SW standards, the Empire isn't going to fare well against the CW.

Even at 1.5 light minutes, the offensive missiles has a range of 27,000,000 kilometers.

And according to the BTM the Superlaser has a range of 47,000,000 kilometers, in Rebel Stand a capital fired on a worldship from outside the solar system.

One of the considerations in weapon range is accuracy. It's just as important to be able to hit your target as it is to be able to reach it. If range was only judged by how far a beam or projectile can travel, all weapons in space would have an infinite range. First off, the bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. And note the term 'worldship' and remember that when aiming at something slightly smaller than an ISD from across a solar system of unknown size (if there were no outer planets, the solar system would be less than 1 billion miles across).

Even the Than jamming devices only partial blinded the Andromeda in the episode, "Dance of the Mayflies".

Not imperial jamming devices though, those even distort space-time(ANH).

I remember that episode. Yeah, the Magog tagged Andromeda with the PSP's AFTER the ship's AI malfunctioned, send the Andromeda on a mission already completed three centuries ago, try killing the crew, and flew right next to the Magog worldship. Yeh, a good gage of the GHC's abilities

And Jaeger had no problem putting a good sized hole through Andromeda either, and she didn't suffer any problems at all then.
Nor was there anything wrong with Andromedas capabilities either during the mission.

Big difference. PSP's are not guided projectiles. Offensive missiles are, and they're more manueverable than CW capital ships and faster than PSP's. Also, jamming works both ways. If the Imps start jamming communications, it's going to be a little difficult for them to communicate with the rest of their fleet.

[His Divine Shadow]

[Q]So, now massless particles stand still and slow down to speeds less than c. Massless particles always travel at c.[/Q]

Thats not the TL so thats irrelevant.

[Q]You can't possibly be that stupid.[/Q]

No, but obviously you can.

[Q]The gravity of a black hole not only can bend light, it also traps it if it goes into the event horizon.[/Q]

How... totally useless to the debate at hand, don't you think I bloody well know this?

[Q]Even the gravity of the sun can bend light.[/Q]

By 1 millionth or a radiian or so.

[Q]That's how general relativity was proven. The apparent position of a star was shifted when its light passed near the sun. This was observes during a solar eclipse in 1919. And a AG field can counter the gravity of a black hole.[/Q]

No it can't, since the Andromeda was never inside the Event Horizon, it was only near and it should be obvious that if it went inside the event horizon that it would never come out again.

To cut it short, the AG fields of the Andromeda cannot under any circumstance push away light, if they could, they would have a cloaking device.
And how the hell did the Andromeda get captured in the black hole when it's AG fields could push it away?

Your being monumentally stupid saying that they could deflect light, if they could, then they would have zero, zip, nada problems in diverting the missiles coming in at .9c.

But as it stands there is no proof that they can deflect light, there is no implication that they can and many implications that says they can't, it is only your wrongly interprepted viewpoint.

[His Divine Shadow]

And yet you felt the need to add 39 million extra worlds to the Empire.

I have added nothing.

One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships

(ref: Star Wars The Roleplaying Sourcebook)

This fits in perfectly with the 12 million quote from Han, that is obviously how many worlds the Empire had during the time of Dark Empire comic books, the Empire was quite whittled down by that point.

ROTFLMAO!!! Let's go back to the ESB movie and see just how much of a threat was the Hoth asteroids:

ROTFLMAO your making assumptions without proof.

PIETT
Our ships have sighted the
Millennium Falcon, lord. But...
it has entered an asteroid field
and we cannot risk...

Well big fucking duh, they where following the ship with Fighters, they had many fighters and smaller ships outside, think for a fucking moment.

Piett doesn't seem to eager to fly through the puny Hoth asteroid field. Maybe he know something you don't, that ISD's don't handle impacts too well, and none of those asteroids were going over 1000 m/s relative to the ISD's. This is opposed to a projectile going .9c.

It's obvious you don't know jack, and Piet does know more than you, he is leading a task force with atleast two major capital ships damaged from planetay Ion cannon blasts, a shit load of weak fighters are chasing the MF and according to the novellization there are 20 smaller ships around that could be suspectible to huge asteroids.

Captain Needa confirms the ISD's took damage in the asteroid fields. If they can't impacts from slow moving astroids with a large cross-section (the smaller the cross-section, the more sheer stress that is placed on the section of the shields impacted). And don't tell me that the ISD's couldn't handle the Hoth asteroid from prior damage during the 'Battle of Hoth'. Because they was no battle. The so-call battle consisted of cover fire by the Rebels while they haul ass out of the system. If that was considered a battle by SW standards, the Empire isn't going to fare well against the CW.

And again you demonstrate a total lack of knowing what you are talking about.

The damage they have sustained? You assume the Capital ships have suffered any damage at all, a big nice lie direct from you.

Again there is no proof the ISD's suffered any damage from the asteroids.
And as we can clearly see in the impact scene where the ISD had it's shields down for holo communication that the asteroid that hit, only caused the asteroid to fragment on the armor, then the communication was cut off, and the captain was still standing there, covering his eyes from bright flashes, wich most likely where debris hitting the shields as they where being raised a bit too late, and the raising of shields prevent holo communication.

Those puny missiles will as usual do jack shit.
And I don't give a shit what you say about ISD's being damaged because they clearly where from the Ion cannon, whatever the hell it's defined as is irrelevant.

One of the considerations in weapon range is accuracy. It's just as important to be able to hit your target as it is to be able to reach it. If range was only judged by how far a beam or projectile can travel, all weapons in space would have an infinite range. First off, the bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. And note the term 'worldship' and remember that when aiming at something slightly smaller than an ISD from across a solar system of unknown size (if there were no outer planets, the solar system would be less than 1 billion miles across).

Useless anyway since there is going to be jamming.

Big difference. PSP's are not guided projectiles. Offensive missiles are, and they're more manueverable than CW capital ships and faster than PSP's. Also, jamming works both ways. If the Imps start jamming communications, it's going to be a little difficult for them to communicate with the rest of their fleet.

Not really since the imps have FTL comms and sensors but the CW does not.
And PSP's still had pretty good accuracy against the Andromeda, now we have something that moves twice as fast.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And yet you felt the need to add 39 million extra worlds to the Empire.

I have added nothing.

One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships

(ref: Star Wars The Roleplaying Sourcebook)

This fits in perfectly with the 12 million quote from Han, that is obviously how many worlds the Empire had during the time of Dark Empire comic books, the Empire was quite whittled down by that point.

So, all the Empire really had was one million member worlds and an assortment of smaller colonies. Funny, I seem to recall the CW was composed of a million world, and I doubt they included an small colonies and territories either.

ROTFLMAO!!! Let's go back to the ESB movie and see just how much of a threat was the Hoth asteroids:

ROTFLMAO your making assumptions without proof.

PIETT
Our ships have sighted the
Millennium Falcon, lord. But...
it has entered an asteroid field
and we cannot risk...

Well big fucking duh, they where following the ship with Fighters, they had many fighters and smaller ships outside, think for a fucking moment.

I'm taking that moment to think everything out. The ISD's were creeping through the asteroid field blasting any asteroid larger than an TIE instead of ignore the puny thing and plowing right through. I think you're BS'ing me and trying to downplaying the dangers of the Hoth asteroid field.

Piett doesn't seem to eager to fly through the puny Hoth asteroid field. Maybe he know something you don't, that ISD's don't handle impacts too well, and none of those asteroids were going over 1000 m/s relative to the ISD's. This is opposed to a projectile going .9c.

It's obvious you don't know jack, and Piet does know more than you, he is leading a task force with atleast two major capital ships damaged from planetay Ion cannon blasts, a shit load of weak fighters are chasing the MF and according to the novellization there are 20 smaller ships around that could be suspectible to huge asteroids.

Did he say the damage our fighters sustained? No, he 'the damage we're sustaining'. He's talking about the ISD's.

Captain Needa confirms the ISD's took damage in the asteroid fields. If they can't impacts from slow moving astroids with a large cross-section (the smaller the cross-section, the more sheer stress that is placed on the section of the shields impacted). And don't tell me that the ISD's couldn't handle the Hoth asteroid from prior damage during the 'Battle of Hoth'. Because they was no battle. The so-call battle consisted of cover fire by the Rebels while they haul ass out of the system. If that was considered a battle by SW standards, the Empire isn't going to fare well against the CW.

And again you demonstrate a total lack of knowing what you are talking about.

The damage they have sustained? You assume the Capital ships have suffered any damage at all, a big nice lie direct from you.

You're the one who's adding dialogue into the movie. Admiral Piett was actually concerned about the TIE fighters and support ships, and Captain Needa really was saying the damage the support ships substained. No, he was referring to the fleet in general.

Those puny missiles will as usual do jack shit.

Puny, you want about puny. I'll let you know what really puny. The entire galaxy was crapping there pants when the Empire debut their solitary planetkiller. Meanwhile, factions of the Nietzscheans have the maxim charge. The Empire has to construct a moon-size space ship to blow up a planet when when a GHC can do the same by jettisoning its exotic matter generator or a single one-man fighter can destroy an entire solar system. The GHC can depopulate an entire planet putting it on par with a K-T level event, and there's over 100,000 of them as opposed to the puny 25,000 ISD's. Yeah, the CW is puny up when compared to the empire.

And I don't give a shit what you say about ISD's being damaged because they clearly where from the Ion cannon, whatever the hell it's defined as is irrelevant.

One of the considerations in weapon range is accuracy. It's just as important to be able to hit your target as it is to be able to reach it. If range was only judged by how far a beam or projectile can travel, all weapons in space would have an infinite range. First off, the bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. And note the term 'worldship' and remember that when aiming at something slightly smaller than an ISD from across a solar system of unknown size (if there were no outer planets, the solar system would be less than 1 billion miles across).

Useless anyway since there is going to be jamming.

Big difference. PSP's are not guided projectiles. Offensive missiles are, and they're more manueverable than CW capital ships and faster than PSP's. Also, jamming works both ways. If the Imps start jamming communications, it's going to be a little difficult for them to communicate with the rest of their fleet.

Not really since the imps have FTL comms and sensors but the CW does not.
And PSP's still had pretty good accuracy against the Andromeda, now we have something that moves twice as fast.

Now, you're trying to have it both ways. The jamming equipment made to stop FTL communications can also stop EM signals? How conveience for the Empire . Keep BSing for the Empire cause that's all you can do. And jamming isn't even 100% effective even for the very forces that put those missiles together, otherwise it'd be used in every military encounter.

[His Divine Shadow]

So, all the Empire really had was one million member worlds and an assortment of smaller colonies. Funny, I seem to recall the CW was composed of a million world, and I doubt they included an small colonies and territories either.

Funny, I seem to have seen no proof of that.

I'm taking that moment to think everything out. The ISD's were creeping through the asteroid field blasting any asteroid larger than an TIE instead of ignore the puny thing and plowing right through. I think you're BS'ing me and trying to downplaying the dangers of the Hoth asteroid field.

I think your BS:ing me, BIG TIME.
Why do they destroy the asteroids? Well guess what they have out in the asteroid field, fighters, lots of them guess what they where doing at this point, using the holo-coms, wich require shields to be DOWN.

Did he say the damage our fighters sustained? No, he 'the damage we're sustaining'. He's talking about the ISD's.

No he's not, and he said considering the damaged we sustained(the taskforce), they must have been destroyed, you assume this to mean the ISD's, something you have no proof for.

You're the one who's adding dialogue into the movie. Admiral Piett was actually concerned about the TIE fighters and support ships, and Captain Needa really was saying the damage the support ships substained. No, he was referring to the fleet in general.

I have added no dialouge whatsoever, I have just refuted your assumptious contradictory conclusions based on them.
And the fleet in general means what? That easily can mean that some ships of the fleet have suffered damage, but since he never said wich ships, you have no case, plus the ICS pretty much refutes it, and in Before the Storm an NR cruiser or destroyer took multiple fire from a bloody planetary railgun that could fire 120 bigass slugs a minute for some time.
That in itself is enough to refute your claims, plus you have apparently missed the idiocy of focusing on energy weapons when KE weapons would then be thousands of times more effective.

Puny, you want about puny. I'll let you know what really puny. The entire galaxy was crapping there pants when the Empire debut their solitary planetkiller.

No thats not puny because that planetkiller was not just capable of destroying planets, it was 50.000 times more powerfull than what is required to destroy a planet, it was made so powerfull so that it could break planetary shields.

Meanwhile, factions of the Nietzscheans have the maxim charge. The Empire has to construct a moon-size space ship to blow up a planet when when a GHC can do the same by jettisoning its exotic matter generator or a single one-man fighter can destroy an entire solar system.

Oh gee, a single one man fighter can destroy a system, where have I heard that? Oh yes, the Sun Crusher, hey it had no problem staying inside a sun for all of eternity, nor a gas giant.
And the Galaxy gun wich can destroy planets of any size from anywhere in the galaxy.

Or Centrepoint station wich could actually steal planets from the Commonwealth, that would be priceless, steal Tarn Vedra, drag it into hyperspace and leave it there.

The GHC can depopulate an entire planet putting it on par with a K-T level event, and there's over 100,000 of them as opposed to the puny 25,000 ISD's. Yeah, the CW is puny up when compared to the empire.

Oh dear, the Empire has only 25.000 ISD class ships, wich are worth 100.000 GHC's anyway, lets forget all the ships like VSD's, dreadnaughts and frigates that put the Empires ships in the tens of millions.
And a couple of old Dreadnaughts and corvettes have enough firepower to melt the crust of a planet in 15 minutes!

Now, you're trying to have it both ways. The jamming equipment made to stop FTL communications can also stop EM signals? How conveience for the Empire

Well big fucking duh, the Empire uses BOTH mediums for christs sake.

Keep BSing for the Empire cause that's all you can do. And jamming isn't even 100% effective even for the very forces that put those missiles together, otherwise it'd be used in every military encounter

Even if it's not 100% effective it will be enough for the GHC's to close to ranges where they can aim accurately.
You're the only one who's BS'ed anything here.

[Renewed_Valour1]

The High Guard could have fooled me

Let me see… Losing to teddy bears, a motley band of rebels and a farm boy….

they would quickly be detected, please a slipstream vessel, even if it landed at tatooine it would attract attention.

It would attract attention but one or two sighting of a slipstream capable vessel isn't going to send the Empire into a full wartime alert. Then there is the detail that several sections of the galaxy are outside the control of the Empire. Sure there might be some questions asked but in the end they wouldn't have much to go on other than someone is snooping around. The other is that Argosy Spec Ops isn't going to cruise around in a slipstream equipped vessel they're going to acquire a local vessel and do so in the most convert means.

And then there is the matter of fact that the Emperor would sense such a thing in the force and take the appropriate action, like killing off the rebels, building up his fleet and so on, and they can do that much much faster than the CW.

A question.
I've never understood how the Force which is directly linked to midi-chlorian are supposed to affect or detect others from outside the Star Wars Galaxy… It's not exactly like hard to detect the things a simple blood test can do it so they must not be there for other major Sci-fi powers. Considering the Vong are from outside the galaxy and we see how well they get along with the Force I don't think it's predicable to say how the Force would detect a given group.

A small comment on the Emperor this is the same guy who managed to get his Empire destroyed, two Death Stars destroyer, his best Legion of Stormtroopers beat by Teddy Bears and then tossed down a shaft while supposely being able to sense the slightest of details? Then we have the small question of why Vader had to call in so many Bounty Hunters when the Emperor shouldhave just been able to say they are here…

Yes they are just going to walse in there in secret and the Empire is not going to do the exact same thing back?

It's called distance and for once I can call it the lovely thing that is the ICS. We know from the Widening Gyre that Commonwealth Slipscouts have explored out to the Virgo Galactic Cluster. In case you don't know that would place it roughly 66,000,000 light years from Commonwealth Space. Now we'll be real conservative and say for example the Commonwealth has done enough scouting out to 20,000,000 light years that the Empire can't be that close. Considering the speeds that ships in slipstream can travel at you have a very conservative number there. According to a tidbit I picked up now in several places the ICS the Acclamator only has an operational range of 250,000 light years. Let's be mega generous and say ISDs have fives times the operational range or 1,250,000. That would place them at the capability to cross about 1/20th of that 20,000,000 light years or 1/66th the capability to reach out the range where we know slipscouts have explored.

Imperial Capital Ships are puddle jumpers compared to your average Commonwealth scoutship.

The other answer is that they have very little information to know where the Commonwealth is and a lot of space to explore. Then they have to cross that space and take all that time. It's an operation that will take years at very least to manage to pull off between gathering supplies and then sending out scouts.

The Commonwealth meanwhile has a lot of time to implement Imperial technology into their vessels and launch an invasion of their own. There's an idea leak the location of the Commonwealth and then hit the Imps while most of their fleet is millions of light years from anything. Considering there are plenty of people or ships that the Commonwealth can get their hands on to acquire new technology they'll have a head start on integrating it into their own vessels.

Once they have their shields and suc installed just like that without any problems whatsoever[/sarcasm]

Well if you want the Commonwealth to stick to their own technology than they just break out the Vedran toys, While the Imperial fleet is stuck out in deep space for a very long time they simply start mass producing tesseracting technology that they never had time to implement because of the Fall. The Imps arrive and can't find the Commonwealth because their worlds are in shadow dimensions. Then they get hit by Glorious Heritage Cruisers and other High Guard ships that their weapons simply pass right through.

There where never that many different factions in the CW, there where a few big ones, it's quite clear that Rommie included all the worlds in the CW, not the member factions, Sabra Jaguar is one large faction and all those worlds would be counted as member worlds, just because they happened to mention only the faction at that time doesn't mean that each faction only numbers one in the 1.5 million worlds. I think you're leaping onto some really big assumptions about the CW's size.

You're the one dismissing information because it doesn't suit you. The Sabra Jaguar signed into the RSC as a single faction. If they had signed on each of their worlds as a member world Hunt's Commonwealth would have been founded that day. The Sabra-Jaguar were able to raise a fleer, hold off, and combat the Drago Kasov Successfully when the Dragans have been stated to control hundreds of world. It would also explain why factions like the Than who controlled over 100 worlds managed to enter the Commonwealth as one group. Then there's the fact that the Kalderans are also referred to as a single governing faction in the Commonwealth known as the Kaldera Commune and so were the Persieds.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I'm taking that moment to think everything out. The ISD's were creeping through the asteroid field blasting any asteroid larger than an TIE instead of ignore the puny thing and plowing right through. I think you're BS'ing me and trying to downplaying the dangers of the Hoth asteroid field.

I think your BS:ing me, BIG TIME.
Why do they destroy the asteroids? Well guess what they have out in the asteroid field, fighters, lots of them guess what they where doing at this point, using the holo-coms, wich require shields to be DOWN.

And just how does the Empire conduct fleet battles without communications with each other or do they drop their shields in the middle of battle?

Did he say the damage our fighters sustained? No, he 'the damage we're sustaining'. He's talking about the ISD's.

No he's not, and he said considering the damaged we sustained(the taskforce), they must have been destroyed, you assume this to mean the ISD's, something you have no proof for.

And you haven't offered up any proof he was only referring to the small support ships. Drop this red herring.

You're the one who's adding dialogue into the movie. Admiral Piett was actually concerned about the TIE fighters and support ships, and Captain Needa really was saying the damage the support ships substained. No, he was referring to the fleet in general.

I have added no dialouge whatsoever, I have just refuted your assumptious contradictory conclusions based on them.
And the fleet in general means what? That easily can mean that some ships of the fleet have suffered damage, but since he never said wich ships, you have no case, plus the ICS pretty much refutes it, and in Before the Storm an NR cruiser or destroyer took multiple fire from a bloody planetary railgun that could fire 120 bigass slugs a minute for some time.
That in itself is enough to refute your claims, plus you have apparently missed the idiocy of focusing on energy weapons when KE weapons would then be thousands of times more effective.

How fast was the slugs going? How big is 'bigass'?

Meanwhile, factions of the Nietzscheans have the maxim charge. The Empire has to construct a moon-size space ship to blow up a planet when when a GHC can do the same by jettisoning its exotic matter generator or a single one-man fighter can destroy an entire solar system.

Oh gee, a single one man fighter can destroy a system, where have I heard that? Oh yes, the Sun Crusher, hey it had no problem staying inside a sun for all of eternity, nor a gas giant.

One Sun Crusher vs. hundreds of thousands of Nova Bombs.

Or Centrepoint station wich could actually steal planets from the Commonwealth, that would be priceless, steal Tarn Vedra, drag it into hyperspace and leave it there.

When has Centerpoint station ever moved a planet across millions of light-years?

The GHC can depopulate an entire planet putting it on par with a K-T level event, and there's over 100,000 of them as opposed to the puny 25,000 ISD's. Yeah, the CW is puny up when compared to the empire.

Oh dear, the Empire has only 25.000 ISD class ships, wich are worth 100.000 GHC's anyway, lets forget all the ships like VSD's, dreadnaughts and frigates that put the Empires ships in the tens of millions.
And a couple of old Dreadnaughts and corvettes have enough firepower to melt the crust of a planet in 15 minutes!

The High Guard is only the elite branch of the larger Home Guard.

Now, you're trying to have it both ways. The jamming equipment made to stop FTL communications can also stop EM signals? How conveience for the Empire

Well big fucking duh, the Empire uses BOTH mediums for christs sake.

Seems a little odd to me that the Empire would use light-speed communications when FTL communications are available to them.

Keep BSing for the Empire cause that's all you can do. And jamming isn't even 100% effective even for the very forces that put those missiles together, otherwise it'd be used in every military encounter

Even if it's not 100% effective it will be enough for the GHC's to close to ranges where they can aim accurately.
You're the only one who's BS'ed anything here.

That's okay. ISD turbolasers had trouble hitting the Falcon when it was less than a kilometer away. I'm sure the CW ships will be able to carry on their attacks from a safe 2 light-seconds from their targets. And you still haven't convince me turbolaser bolts can travel at c. Just watch any of the SW movies and note the time delay between the turbolaser firing and the target being hit.

[Renewed_Valour1]

And the empire could most likily find allies with the magog and the Kalderon ( they would make great storm troopers)

Yeah the Magog would "ally" themselves with the Empire…. Imperial Citizens would make nice hosts for their progeny. Trying to make allies with the Magog would be akin to befriending a rabid wolf. As for the Kalderans that's funny thought since they were loyal members of the Commonwealth up until after the fall. They never had an issues with the Commonwealth rather they hated the Vedran Empire. The Kalderans themselves are an intensely democratic species who have to come to a consensus on everything. The Empire would be even more revolting to them than the Old Vedran Empire.

At max, with firing multiwarhead version of the Offensive missiles, the Andromeda ( or any XMS) can only deliver 30 GT ( 6GT with single warhead) worth of damage a second, not even the output of a single medium turbolaser.

Actualy the PM-6LII variant smart missile that you mention still isn't the High Guard heaviest missiles. That title seems to fall to the standard PM-6 and extended range variants of fhe PM-6 series. Also the 100 mt yield for the PM-6LII us based on the assumption that the missiles are the same as standard kinetic missiles.

[Crossover_Maniac]

te="His Divine Shadow"]Once they have their shields and suc installed just like that without any problems whatsoever[/sarcasm]

Well if you want the Commonwealth to stick to their own technology than they just break out the Vedran toys, While the Imperial fleet is stuck out in deep space for a very long time they simply start mass producing tesseracting technology that they never had time to implement because of the Fall. The Imps arrive and can't find the Commonwealth because their worlds are in shadow dimensions. Then they get hit by Glorious Heritage Cruisers and other High Guard ships that their weapons simply pass right through.[/quote]

Why should we stick to just CW tech? In the episode "All Too Human", a colony of humans was able to gain Magog technology from finding one of their swarm ships intact and used the technology to destroy a planet controlled by AI's with PSP's. Of course, why would we want their tech anyway. One good roadmap of the SW galaxy and the Empire is in flame within a year.

[omegaLancer]

yes I base that on the standard ke missile, the reason is that everytime any missile is used ( other than the Defensive missile) Dilan uses the the 20MT quote, from the Rommie offensive yield to those in obrital batteries ..

It seem that a 1kilogram pay load is the max for CW missile technology..

While the than in "Dance of the mayflies" were able to use AP warheads on missiles to destroy the asteriod the Andromeda was hidding behind, Dilan dismiss the usefulness of this technology as an anti ship weapon ( Too Slow)....

As for AG field blocking turbo laser, in the same episode a Than fighter firing a beam of AP cripple Rommie, if the AG could normally be used in a defensive matter this would have been the perfect time to use it, since they had advance warning of the fighters and anti protons having mass ( AG field should easily be able to deflect such beams)..

As for the episode where Harper used the ag field to block a plasma beam, he was force to reconfigure the Ram Scoop ( apparentily they use it to suck up interstellar Hydrogen) to deflect the blast... What affect this had on the normal function of the AP ( used to counteract the Hi G forces generated by Acceleration) is unkown, but apparentily this reconfiguration was short live.

Apparentily CW ship are suspenidle to energy weapons, and the Cold Plasma armor of the DSX series is an attempt to enhance CW vessels defensive to Energy base weapons..

[Crossover_Maniac]

yes I base that on the standard ke missile, the reason is that everytime any missile is used ( other than the Defensive missile) Dilan uses the the 20MT quote, from the Rommie offensive yield to those in obrital batteries ..

It seem that a 1kilogram pay load is the max for CW missile technology..

While the than in "Dance of the mayflies" were able to use AP warheads on missiles to destroy the asteriod the Andromeda was hidding behind, Dilan dismiss the usefulness of this technology as an anti ship weapon ( Too Slow)....

As for AG field blocking turbo laser, in the same episode a Than fighter firing a beam of AP cripple Rommie, if the AG could normally be used in a defensive matter this would have been the perfect time to use it, since they had advance warning of the fighters and anti protons having mass ( AG field should easily be able to deflect such beams)..

As for the episode where Harper used the ag field to block a plasma beam, he was force to reconfigure the Ram Scoop ( apparentily they use it to suck up interstellar Hydrogen) to deflect the blast... What affect this had on the normal function of the AP ( used to counteract the Hi G forces generated by Acceleration) is unkown, but apparentily this reconfiguration was short live.

Apparentily CW ship are suspenidle to energy weapons, and the Cold Plasma armor of the DSX series is an attempt to enhance CW vessels defensive to Energy base weapons..

Finally, a sci-fi series is using the actual real-life research on cold plasma shields by the US Air Force. Ah, the power of sci-fi to make the military fund project they would otherwise ignore.

[omegaLancer]

Cross over make a good point about the Hoth field, the one thing that is over look by all is the beginning of the chase of the imperial of MF..

We get from various sources that it took 10 minutes for the Falcon to reach the Asteroid field from Hoth, since she was being pursued by fleet of Star destroyers, the Falcon was under maxium acceleration..

The Pursuing star destroyers were also under full throttle ( remember Ledia comment about that the destroyer where catching up), from SWIC for AOTC we see that acceleration of several thousand g are not uncommon for SW ships.

If this is true 10 minute at 2 to 3000 G would have both the falcon and the imperial pursue ships moving at relativitic Velocities..

At normal orbital velocities, Multi- ton Meteors would strike like atomic bombs, at Relativitic Velocities the meteor would have impacts measured in the gigatons range and the freqency of strikes would have been very high ( like rain the various written account stated). ( and this would explain the Why the Imperial would have been a little concern about entering the field)

A normal commander would have his ships avoid the asteroid field and decelerate to safe speed, but it apparent that the Imperial were force to plunge into the field after the falcon (Vader had no fear for his command ship)..

At this time we would have expected the maxium damage to fleet to have occur, weaken and draining the shields of the fleet, damage to various structure on ship who shields had drop.

Later when the falcon went into hidding ( meaning the pursuing vessels endure many minutes plowing thru an asteriod field at relatitivitic Velocities), Vader would have allow the fleet to slow to what would have appear to be a safe velocity, but he force the fleet to remain in the field. At this point the damage was done.

From the Film we can see the Asteroid striking the bridge structure, un like other frames where we see meteors explode before striking, so it obivious that the in this case the shield unit of the ship struck where damage or down.

If the hit had occur on the Main hull it would have not be as damaging, instead on the lightily armor bridge structure it had devasting effect, especially if it struck the Transparent steel window of the bridge..

from various novel and comics this glass window is similar to glass portal on tie fighters and were design to withstand kilotons worth of damage, so striking meteor must have hit with a force greater than the window could stand or the bridge structure was weaken from it intial plunge into the Field...

If Vader had given the fleet time to slow to safe speed, or even allow damage ships to leave the field for repairs, this would not have happen, the amazing part is that even after spending days searching for the falcon that more ships were not cripple. In one case we see a star destroyer chasing the falcon after she left her hidding spot, wading thru the field without it taking any damage ( from the "Anakin the story of Vader", the event is describe as meteors struck like a rain of multimegaton Concussion missiles, against the bow shield of the pursuing ISD )

To show you the strength of the SW shield technology, when the Falcon originily enter the field, most of her power was reroute to rear shields, at this time she impact into a hail of small micro meteors ( some the size of footballs) and was not harm in the least..

[Crossover_Maniac]

Cross over make a good point about the Hoth field, the one thing that is over look by all is the beginning of the chase of the imperial of MF..

We get from various sources that it took 10 minutes for the Falcon to reach the Asteroid field from Hoth, since she was being pursued by fleet of Star destroyers, the Falcon was under maxium acceleration..

The Pursuing star destroyers were also under full throttle ( remember Ledia comment about that the destroyer where catching up), from SWIC for AOTC we see that acceleration of several thousand g are not uncommon for SW ships.

If this is true 10 minute at 2 to 3000 G would have both the falcon and the imperial pursue ships moving at relativitic Velocities..

At 3000 G acceleration, a ship would be traveling at 17,640 km/s or 0.0588 c. That is if it was a straight acceleration. The Millennium Falcon was constantly changing its acceleration vector during evasive manueveurs, so its final velocity would have been slower. Also, it was the TIE fighters that chased the Falcon into the asteroid field. At first, an ISD was in pursuit of the Falcon, but a moment later, the only vessels seen chasing the Falcon into the heart of the asteroid field was the smaller, more manueveurable TIE's. The ISD that was pursuing Han starts to lag behind.

At normal orbital velocities, Multi- ton Meteors would strike like atomic bombs, at Relativitic Velocities the meteor would have impacts measured in the gigatons range and the freqency of strikes would have been very high ( like rain the various written account stated). ( and this would explain the Why the Imperial would have been a little concern about entering the field)

Kinetic energy at this speed would be 1.56E14 joules per kilogram or 37 kilotons per kilogram that 16,000 gigatons for a collision with an asteroid 40 meters in diameter with a density of 7000 kg/m^3. Considering how dense the Hoth asteroid field was, there would have been a minimum of hundreds of collisions per second. Putting ballistics aside, this would have overwelm even ISD shields in the energy department. An ISD's would have been overwelmed the instant it when the Hoth asteroid field.

[omegaLancer]

Yes thank you

"Kinetic energy at this speed would be 1.56E14 joules per kilogram or 37 kilotons per kilogram that 16,000 gigatons for a collision with an asteroid 40 meters in diameter with a density of 7000 kg/m^3. Considering how dense the Hoth asteroid field was, there would have been a minimum of hundreds of collisions per second. Putting ballistics aside, this would have overwelm even ISD shields in the energy department. An ISD's would have been overwelmed the instant it when the Hoth asteroid field."

Since the average turbo laser has a yield of 200GT, a boardside ( assuming a minuim of 30 Turbolaser ) would mean a minium damage of 6000 GT, and this does not take into the account that the HVY turbo laser (6 per boardside) would be at least 10x the power of 200GT. Add 12000 GT we would see that a star destroyer would be able to withstand a minium of 18000 GT. Getting hit by one good size meteor would have been close to over loading the shield.. Even at 1/2 the stated Velocity ( since you said it was not a straight out chase), we still see strikes in the 100's of gigatons

Now we see how and why of the famous Hoth Asteriod chase, and why the Ke missiles of Andromeda would be a joke in comparison .

Thanks for proving my point

[omegaLancer]

Cross over, one of the rules of these us vs them discussion, is that both sides are limited to the technology that they normally possess. No backward engineering capture ships or gifts from enemy of the parties involve in the conflict..

The Magog swarm ship was found after the CW had fallen ( but it was suggested that the technology was a gift from the magog SOTA), and would not be technology normally possess by the CW ( no PSP cannon) while the tessact Tech would be allowable...

But as i remember it, the agents of the Spirit of the Abyss could not strike/ attack when out of phase ( if this the proper term for the effect). While they could not be attack, they could not attack in kind...I know that part about the magog larva, but only part of her must have been out of phase ( yet this too could not be correct. chuck it up to mystery of writer logic)..

But as the fight scene show, Tear and Charlemain was able to have a mexican standoff with that one assassin.

So your statement about the CW ship attacking while in that state would not seem valid...