Gandalf the white vs yoda AOTC

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 02:24am

Okay, Tolkien fanboys, this is very simple; if Gandalf 'could' set living flesh on fire willy-nilly, then why didn't he in the Hobbit? And don't give the excuse that 'he isn't allowed to interfere with mortals blah, blah'. The fact is, he ran up a freakin tree, sat there and threw pinecones on the wargs, rather than setting them directly on fire.

We haven't ever seen him do it, even in occasions when he was very much using magic to set inanimate objects on fire, in order to burn and kill animate objects, so basically you are lying through your teeth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-14 02:26am

Typical fan-whore behaviour. If it isn't rabid Fivers, it's LOTR fan-whores. Every fan-whore has to fall back on the same goddamned "holding back" excuse ...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 02:32am

Except in this case they have been caught with their hand in the jar, hell Gandalf nearly died up that tree when the Goblins set it on fire but was saved by the Eagles... Immortal badass, yeah, sure, right.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-01-14 04:32am

Darth Wong wrote:Typical fan-whore behaviour. If it isn't rabid Fivers, it's LOTR fan-whores. Every fan-whore has to fall back on the same goddamned "holding back" excuse ...

Okay stop it, this is New evidence see, now we have a real reason why possibly he can't set flesh on fire, an observed incidence where it would have been useful... Except did he almost die? Ignoring the Maier thing and coming back, (I'd say a long time dead aka Sauron would count as being dead, and a serious cramp in his scale...) Where the Wargs a real threat to Gandalf, or was he simply unwilling to deploy his full arsenal at that time? We know Gandalf the grey was more a manipulator behind the scenes, the whole of the Hobbit was his strike at Smaug, to kill Smaug before Sauron returned. (An alliance between Smaug and Sauron scared the S**t out of Gandalf)

So the question is would it have been wise then and there to simply wipe them out, (The Wargs that is.) revealing the presence of a powerful being?

Now then that is however a baseless statement without evidence, as evidence I present the Balrog again, here he goes up against a creature that could have slaughtered the Wargs with out even noticing, and defeats it, and yet you try to argue that Gandalf would have trouble, if he let himself go, with a few Wargs? (Yes I know you, Wong didn't bring this up, Crown did.) Does it seem unlikely to you...

yes it does to me too, something had to be going on, reasonable reason is he WAS holding back, Gandalf didn't go around revealing who and what he was until it REALLY mattered.

As for my asking you to accept that Science is broken by magic and not to apply the real world to it. Well thats the definition of magic (Source as if you need it http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) 1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have [Bold]supernatural power over natural forces[/Bold] b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell :

I'm, or anyone else pointing this out, are not being 'Rabid fan-boys' for claiming Magic does not follow the Scientific laws, or for asking that such rules be ignored when discussing magic. Magic is by definition demanding these conditions, if you discuss magic you are basically saying 'Ignore Science' If you can't accept that condition then you will always miss the point of magic. Look in it's heart Fantasy Magic side steps the natural world, or at least approachs it from a seperate position. So then what has to be determined as I keep saying is not that It has no Rules, and no Limit's but that you may not set those limits by Science, Because quite Simply to do so is to render Magic impotent since nothing magic does AT ALL is possible within Science, by putting on a metal ring a person CANNOT become invisible, a Being cannot be made of Shadow and Fire, Rivers cannot come to life, by asking a mountain to go to sleep and rest a person cannot be expected to have it happen, or even hope that the mountain will listen yet. (In the book the whole mountain scene where they almost get buried in the snow forcing them towards Moria has Gandalf tell the spirit of the mountain to rest and sleep. In the Movie the words they speak translate to Gandalf telling the mountain to sleep and well you know who telling it to get mad basically) As non of these things are possible, mountains don't have spirits etc etc

So with all this evidence how can you claim it is illogical to say Svience dosn't work when it comes to magic!! Surely the only illogic unreasonable argument is the one you are taking, in you desire to see a win for star wars.

You know besides all this even if it is an illusion, that means that without stretching himself Gandalf is able to cast a convincing illusion, pull a axe out of a Dwarfs hands, cause an Elf to miss, and set fire to the arrow while it's in flight. ALL At once, in what appears to be a mere thought!! quite a convincingly powerful list of acoplishments, and one that would appear to be more than Yoda can handle, even if the flame is an illusion this is no mere the weak willed see through it as Argorn is anything but, nor is Legolas or Gimli. (Elves are incredieably strong willed, Aragor is a Numanor man, which means he is 'better' than your average man, and Dwarfs are a stubborn folk.) The illusion, even assuming it was one, would have to be VERY convincing, as Arragorn was Gandalf's friend, traveling companion, and confident You better believe he would know about simple illusions...

What does this mean, well in either case Gandalf still is far to powerful for Yoda to approach...

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-01-14 04:35am

Sorry Goblins.

Oh and Crown, Falling down Fhazad Doom, intwined with the Balrog, fighting him all the way down, then batteling him all the way out of Moria, up the mountain and so forth for 8 days, yep an immortal badass I think!!! And all this was when he was Gandalf the Grey, before he became the {Begin advertisment mode] new improved, more Powerful Gandalf the White!!

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 05:08am

Hmmm?

Oh sorry I fell asleep, waiting for you to justify the claim that Gandalf can set animate objects alight, when ever he wishes... Should I just keep waiting?

Basically all you have done is the usuall evasion of the question. Let me help you out; Gandalf did not set the wargs on fire in the Hobbit, not because he didn't want to reveal himself to Sauron (who by the by Gandalf wasn't even sure that Sauron was the Necromancer in the woods at that time), he didn't set the alite because he couldn't. Do you understand that?

What makes you think that if he sets acorns and pinecones alite; Sauron won't recognise him, and yet if he sets some wargs alite Sauron will all of a sudden go; Oh there you are! *tag your it!*? He was using magic TO SET THE ACORNS ALITE. Your argument is flawed.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-01-14 06:23am

Basically all you have done is the usuall evasion of the question. Let me help you out; Gandalf did not set the wargs on fire in the Hobbit, not because he didn't want to reveal himself to Sauron (who by the by Gandalf wasn't even sure that Sauron was the Necromancer in the woods at that time), he didn't set the alite because he couldn't . Do you understand that?

What makes you think that if he sets acorns and pinecones alite; Sauron won't recognise him, and yet if he sets some wargs alite Sauron will all of a sudden go; Oh there you are! *tag your it!*? He was using magic TO SET THE ACORNS ALITE. Your argument is flawed.

1.) Setting things alite is not the entirety of the argument
2.) The debate also includes setting the sword on fire, in contradiction to science, thereby debating the nature of Magic
3.) Sauron is not the only person he wanted to avoid warning of his presence, or do you think he wanted Smaug to get a hint that a Maier is approaching him? (Where the only known Mair are the Wizards, Sauron and Demons of the Balrog's power levels, and Shelob's in any of these cases Smaug is goning to be worried and roused/prepared)
4.) So far you have not addressed the issue of what threat did those Wargs present to Gandalf that you think that the mair should have been worried, a being that took on a Balrog and WON, or are you saying that the Warg's and Goblins Gandalf faced in the Hobbit where somehow an equal threat as the Balrog...
5.) If you are saying that then WHAT the hell are you smoking! (Sorry not really a point but hay...)
6.) If you are not saying this then what are you saying that Gandalf is weak because he didn't use his powers at this point in time, when it wasn't needed, would have alerted every thing of real power in a 100 mile radius. generally I find that when attempting to manipulate matters behind the scenes it is considered unwise to walk around with a big neon sign over your head pointing to you, how about you what do you think? It was against the mission guidelines they where set when they left the Grey Havens, they where not to solve every problem through their magic, and Gandalf got quite good at not doing so. Instead he seems to limit himself to parlour tricks often such as the kindling trick, something perhaps anyone could do. only pulling out all the stops when facing a true threat...
7.) I find an arrow in flight to be animate enough to say he can target animate objects.

Also answer the clothes issue, lets assume for a moment he can't set Flesh alite and instead simply sets Yoda's clothes on fire.... hmm they look very flamable to me those nice Cloth Robes, should be easy to start a fire there... any differance between that and say setting Flesh on fire, in either case Yoda is on fire. Or the Argument that the sword was an illusion, a VERY convincing illusion since it fooled an Elf, a Numonour man, and a Dwarf, who where expecting magic... Says enough about the power of such an illusion, it is obviously enough to make a person believe it is real.... Any person, Yoda has no defence against such things to the best of my knowledge unless theres a Force trick that covers this....

Lets also address the issue of is it an Illusion... More evidence that it wasn't Oh they where only expecting to face a wizard, and since it is known that Gandalf and Aragorn where traveling companions before the fellowship... and Legolas as an Elf knows what a Mair is capable of, and likely knows what Gandalf is. (After all he would have been alive when the Wizards arrived from the Grey Havens) So these people with knowledge of the abilties of Wizards, show no disbelief at what is happening they accept it as possible even before they realise it is Gandalf, showing such abilties are avaible to Wizards in General, and would presumably be even easier to one who bears the Elvish Ring of power that deals with Fire...

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 09:30am

I hate repeating myself, so just to save time;

Crown wrote:Basically all you have done is the usuall evasion of the question. Let me help you out; Gandalf did not set the wargs on fire in the Hobbit, not because he didn't want to reveal himself to Sauron (who by the by Gandalf wasn't even sure that Sauron was the Necromancer in the woods at that time), he didn't set the alite because he couldn't . Do you understand that?

What makes you think that if he sets acorns and pinecones alite; Sauron won't recognise him, and yet if he sets some wargs alite Sauron will all of a sudden go; Oh there you are! *tag your it!*? He was using magic TO SET THE ACORNS ALITE. Your argument is flawed.

1.) Setting things alite is not the entirety of the argument

No the point I am making is that Gandalf has NEVER demonstrated the ability to set animate objects alite, just so you know an animate object is a living object.

3.) Sauron is not the only person he wanted to avoid warning of his presence, or do you think he wanted Smaug to get a hint that a Maier is approaching him? (Where the only known Mair are the Wizards, Sauron and Demons of the Balrog's power levels, and Shelob's in any of these cases Smaug is goning to be worried and roused/prepared)

I have already de-bunked this. He was using magic to set alite in-animate objects, so that he can throw them at animate objects, so he can burn them. Since he was already using magic, he has already revealed his presence. Your argument that he was holding back so as not to reveal his presence is flawed.

4.) So far you have not addressed the issue of what threat did those Wargs present to Gandalf that you think that the mair should have been worried, a being that took on a Balrog and WON, or are you saying that the Warg's and Goblins Gandalf faced in the Hobbit where somehow an equal threat as the Balrog...

Which has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not Gandalf can make ANIMATE objects spontaneously combust! And OOhhhh Gandalf is a mair, like Saruman? You know Saruman, the one that got killed by Wormtongue?

6.) If you are not saying this then what are you saying that Gandalf is weak because he didn't use his powers at this point in time, when it wasn't needed, would have alerted every thing of real power in a 100 mile radius. generally I find that when attempting to manipulate matters behind the scenes it is considered unwise to walk around with a big neon sign over your head pointing to you, how about you what do you think? It was against the mission guidelines they where set when they left the Grey Havens, they where not to solve every problem through their magic, and Gandalf got quite good at not doing so. Instead he seems to limit himself to parlour tricks often such as the kindling trick, something perhaps anyone could do. only pulling out all the stops when facing a true threat...

Utter crap. They set the tree alite under him and he had to be rescued by the Eagles, read the book. If you want to bitch about it, go find Tolkien.

7.) I find an arrow in flight to be animate enough to say he can target animate objects.

Animate objects are living beings, not fast moving objects.

Also answer the clothes issue, lets assume for a moment he can't set Flesh alite and instead simply sets Yoda's clothes on fire.... hmm they look very flamable to me those nice Cloth Robes, should be easy to start a fire there... any differance between that and say setting Flesh on fire, in either case Yoda is on fire. Or the Argument that the sword was an illusion, a VERY convincing illusion since it fooled an Elf, a Numonour man, and a Dwarf, who where expecting magic... Says enough about the power of such an illusion, it is obviously enough to make a person believe it is real.... Any person, Yoda has no defence against such things to the best of my knowledge unless theres a Force trick that covers this....

Very generous of you for assuming that Gandalf can't set flesh alite, you know since HE NEVER DEMONSTRATED THE ABILITY EVER. Even when it was warranted. But fine, did you happen to see TPM? You know the part where Qui-Gon is melting the freakin' blast door. What you think that the heat doesn't radiate onto him? His robes should have caught on fire (they didn't), his lightsaber handle should have burned his fucking hands off (it didn't), his facial hair should have all been shriveled up and his eyes tosted (they weren't). Clearly Jedi have the ability to control the flow of heat away from themselves.

Even if the clothes were managed to set alite (which I still contest they won't be to begin with), did you see AotC, by the time Mace finishes his jump his robe is just smoking, but no longer burning. What you think that Yoda is going to just stand there, and ponder the fact that his clothes are alite. Hell if he wanted to, he could and then it would be buff Yoda vs Gandalf, since I have already demonstrated a Jedi's ability to channel heat away from themselves (Qui-Gon). Choose.

Lets also address the issue of is it an Illusion... More evidence that it wasn't Oh they where only expecting to face a wizard, and since it is known that Gandalf and Aragorn where traveling companions before the fellowship... and Legolas as an Elf knows what a Mair is capable of, and likely knows what Gandalf is. (After all he would have been alive when the Wizards arrived from the Grey Havens) So these people with knowledge of the abilties of Wizards, show no disbelief at what is happening they accept it as possible even before they realise it is Gandalf, showing such abilties are avaible to Wizards in General, and would presumably be even easier to one who bears the Elvish Ring of power that deals with Fire...

Lets see, a 50 something man (who by the way manages to test his will against Sauron and win, yeah Mair are real scary

), a paranoid Dwarf (who is scared of the supernatural), and an Elf. And this sort of impresses me how? You are using a flawed argument, you assume they (Aragon, Legolas and Gimli) are somehow so strong-willed, whereas the opposite could also be true. The fact that Aragon used the seeing stone and withstood Sauron, shows the weak-mindness of the Mair. By your reasoning Sauron should have bitch slapped Aragon all the way back to the west, why? Gandalf; Yes, Gandalf the White. But Black is still stronger. Excuse me if I choose to not be impressed by this.

2.) The debate also includes setting the sword on fire, in contradiction to science, thereby debating the nature of Magic

I left this to last for a reason. Mainly because you are placing yourself on a perilous edge, and I will try and show you why this line of reasoning should be dropped right away. When Yoda uses the Force, wouldn't that percieved to be magic? Well let me put to you this way; Yoda uses the Force to lift an X-Wing (TESB), now science (or more acuratlly Newton's 3rd Law) tells us for every action there is an equal and opposit reaction. This means that as Yoda is 'holding up' the X-Wing, it's weight should be reacting on him. Now why wasn't Yoda squashed like a muppet-bug? To use your argument(s); it's magic and can't be limitted by science! Therefore, since it's magic, Yoda could just shift the entire Middle Earth into the nearest Star, and laugh his ass off! Do you see the obserdety in this claim? Hell I have cannon faucking evidence that Yoda could indeed to this; Yoda; Size matters not!

The point is, since we have never seen any Jedi demonstrate this particular trick, and it would be far harder than moving an X-Wing (which is an achievement in-of itself and shouldn't be brushed aside lightly), it would be illogical to assume that he can. So since Gandalf was stuck up a freakin' tree and CHOSE to use MAGIC to set in-animate objects alite so that he could BURN ANIMATE objects, rather than using magic to just burn the animate objects outright, then he can't. Get it?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-14 09:47am

Valiant effort, Crown. Too bad you're fighting dogma.

Saruman the White gets killed by Wormtongue and Gandalf runs from Orcs, but a telepathic alien with heavy-duty TK powers and a sword that cuts through armour plate won't be a threat. Nothing you can say will alter this doctrine in their minds.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 09:49am

I don't know, I do have cannon evidence of Yoda manipulating the objects, and defying Newton's 3rd Law, not to mention size matters not. So Mike how do you like your Middle Earth? Medium or crispy?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 09:55am

Crown wrote: Which has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not Gandalf can make ANIMATE objects spontaneously combust!

In the books, Saruman himself sets several of the attacking Ents on fire. It was pretty much the losses they had. IIRC, he only stopped doing it because, after the Ents destroyed everything, he feared further killings would arouse them enough to destroy the tower. If Saruman had that power, there's no reason Gandalf didn't have it too.

And OOhhhh Gandalf is a mair, like Saruman? You know Saruman, the one that got killed by Wormtongue?

After being stripped of his powers by Gandalf. The only thing he had left was an enchanting speech. Which does not protect against knifes.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:00am

Darth Wong wrote:Saruman the White gets killed by Wormtongue and Gandalf runs from Orcs, but a telepathic alien with heavy-duty TK powers and a sword that cuts through armour plate won't be a threat. Nothing you can say will alter this doctrine in their minds.

He's not the white anymore. He's Saruman the colorless. Gandalf runs from Orcs, true, but it would take a great number of them to overwhelm him. Given large enough numbers, they'd kill Yoda too.

That said, I'm not advocating a win for Gandalf. It would depend a lot of the conditions of the battle, and who gets the first attacks. Yoda could rip him to shreds easily.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:01am

Darth Wong wrote:Saruman the White gets killed by Wormtongue and Gandalf runs from Orcs, but a telepathic alien with heavy-duty TK powers and a sword that cuts through armour plate won't be a threat. Nothing you can say will alter this doctrine in their minds.

He's not the white anymore. He's Saruman the colorless. Gandalf runs from Orcs, true, but it would take a great number of them to overwhelm him. Given large enough numbers, they'd kill Yoda too.

That said, I'm not advocating a win for Gandalf. It would depend a lot of the conditions of the battle, and who gets the first attacks. Yoda could rip him to shreds easily.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 10:01am

Colonel Olrik wrote:
In the books, Saruman himself sets several of the attacking Ents on fire. It was pretty much the losses they had. IIRC, he only stopped doing it because, after the Ents destroyed everything, he feared further killings would arouse them enough to destroy the tower. If Saruman had that power, there's no reason Gandalf didn't have it too.

I don't remember that. In fact, I don't recall that the battle was ever even related in The Two Towers. Reference?

After being stripped of his powers by Gandalf. The only thing he had left was an enchanting speech. Which does not protect against knifes.

Gandalf broke his staff, it doesn't say he 'stripped him of his powers', unless you have a reference? (I leant my copy to a friend)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-14 10:02am

I know the Ents are technically animated, but that's a special case; they're still made of wood, not flesh. Wood burns readily, while flesh doesn't. I don't know how you're supposed to set something alight when it does not burn. And the likelihood of setting Yoda's cloak alight is probably not much better, as it's likely flame-retardant. Windu caught a flamethrower blast from Jango, and while some of the gel stuck to his cloak and burned briefly, the cloak itself never caught fire. By the time he landed, it was out.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 10:11am

Colonel Olrik wrote:In the books, Saruman himself sets several of the attacking Ents on fire. It was pretty much the losses they had. IIRC, he only stopped doing it because, after the Ents destroyed everything, he feared further killings would arouse them enough to destroy the tower. If Saruman had that power, there's no reason Gandalf didn't have it too.

No he didn't;

LotR, TTT paperback pg 209;

Merry & Pippin telling the others what happened;

<snip of Saruman running from the Gates to Orthanc and Ents chasing him>

"When Saruman was safe back in Orthanc, it was not long before he set some of his machinery to work. <snip telling Ents were all inside the gates> Suddenly up came fires and foul flames: the vents and shafts all over the plain began to spout and belch"

Clearly shows that Saruman himself didn't create the fire.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:13am

I just checked. I was mistaken. There is a reference to the battle, and to Ents getting burned in Isengard by Saruman(chapter "Floatsame and fetsam), but it is through machinery contained in Orthanc, not due to his powers.They did get aroused.

About Saruman losing his powers, Gandalf said so when rebuking Treebeard for letting him go, in ROTK. Don't have the book right now, but I don't think I'm mistaken about that.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 10:14am

Also you are right Vympel, his powers weren't stripped, his staff was broken. Actually that's the third refrence I can think of, where a wizards power is related to his staff. Also entering the Golden hall, and in the FotR when Gandalf 'breaks' the bridge he looses his staff, and the only thing that protects him is the elven sword.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:18am

I know the Ents are technically animated, but that's a special case; they're still made of wood, not flesh.

It's one of the confusions between films and books. In the books, Ents are not made of wood. They're tall, but humanoids. There are also Huorns, trees that became "entish", and those are, of course, made of wood.

But it doesn't matter, since I was mistaken about Saruman putting Ents on fire using his powers

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:21am

Crown wrote:Also you are right Vympel, his powers weren't stripped, his staff was broken. Actually that's the third refrence I can think of, where a wizards power is related to his staff. Also entering the Golden hall, and in the FotR when Gandalf 'breaks' the bridge he looses his staff, and the only thing that protects him is the elven sword.

It's not clear how he lost his powers (of course, it was at the moment Gandalf said "your staff is broken") but it is made clear in several scenes that he indeed lost them, being solely associated with the staff or not).

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-14 10:26am

[quote="Colonel Olrik"]

It's one of the confusions between films and books. In the books, Ents are not made of wood. They're tall, but humanoids. There are also Huorns, trees that became "entish", and those are, of course, made of wood.
[quote]

Really

I always thought the Ents were tree people- the image just popped into my head.

Of course, this could be due to playing that Warhammer PC game where you get a big tree in your army.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-14 10:28am

But that very scene where Saruman unleashes his machines and fire, Merry or Pippen describe Ents as having 'skin like bark' so...

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-01-14 10:35am

Crown wrote:But that very scene where Saruman unleashes his machines and fire, Merry or Pippen describe Ents as having 'skin like bark' so...

First encounter with treebeard:

"They found that they were looking at a mmost extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head , and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. <it continues, describing the arms, feet, beard, etc>"

So he may be more flammable than a man, but it's certainly not made out of wood, like in the movies.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-01-14 07:25pm

Crown wrote: What makes you think that if he sets acorns and pinecones alite; Sauron won't recognise him, and yet if he sets some wargs alite Sauron will all of a sudden go; Oh there you are! *tag your it!*? He was using magic TO SET THE ACORNS ALITE. Your argument is flawed.

No it's not, as I said different levels of power needed to achieve something, your argument seems to rest on Gandalf's power levels being the equivalent of a mouse, and ignoring the fact that rather he has greater powers than ANY elf we have seen. That means greater than Elrond, the guy who caused the River to come to life... Greater than Galadrial Who could have been a Dark Lord if given the one ring. How do we know this to be fact, because when the Elves return to the Grey HAvens we know they become minor powers, next to the Istari who live their, those Istari include the Maier, and Gandalf is a Maier.

No the point I am making is that Gandalf has NEVER demonstrated the ability to set animate objects alite, just so you know an animate object is a living object.

Question I'm asking you a simple question and for you to assume something for a moment, just to let this point rest, I'm not asking you to accept the argument for the rest of the debate. Assume Gandalf was able to set Arragorn's sword on fire, and that it was not an Illusion, accepting that point, What differance do you see between setting the sword on fire and setting living matter on fire, what intrinsic differance are you arguing for, what makes you thinkj that because something is alive it may be beyond Gandalf's power, when as far as I can see it appears to be an arbitary argument put forward. Oh he can't set living flesh on fire... Why? because, because... As I said before if I had never seen Star wars and my first encounter with a Light Saber was TPM I wouldn't need to see them take on living opponments to draw inferance that a Lightsaber can do so, I could Logically assume from the first 10 minutes of footage, from evidence. Answer this point, make those assumptions and we can see whether this point needsa to be continued, if you can't then we can go on to whether it was an illusion...

I have already de-bunked this. He was using magic to set alite in-animate objects, so that he can throw them at animate objects, so he can burn them. Since he was already using magic, he has already revealed his presence. Your argument that he was holding back so as not to reveal his presence is flawed.

There where many magic users even some humans, none had a Maier's abilties, to use a small weak amount of magic would give nothing away, to up the scale would... it's a bit like holding a Candle up in the dark, yes it's lighter, but no where near the extent of starting up a Lighthouse, Gandalf is a fucking light house. So no you havn't debunked anything...

4.) So far you have not addressed the issue of what threat did those Wargs present to Gandalf that you think that the mair should have been worried, a being that took on a Balrog and WON, or are you saying that the Warg's and Goblins Gandalf faced in the Hobbit where somehow an equal threat as the Balrog...

Which has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not Gandalf can make ANIMATE objects spontaneously combust! And OOhhhh Gandalf is a mair, like Saruman? You know Saruman, the one that got killed by Wormtongue?
[/Quote]
After losing his poiwers, and being striped of his MAier status, and no the powers of a mage are not bound up in the staffs, else how does Gandalf still have his powers after escaping from saruman... after all he dosn't have time to pop back for his staff. The staff is a symbol of that power, but like Gandalf did Saruman could have made a new staff if it was important, but he had lost his powers at a core level, and lost his Maier status, which is why his essence dissapated in the wind unlike the other observed instances of Maier having their bodies die.

and in answer to the the and has nothing to do... argument has every fucking thing to do with it, do you take an Anti tank missile against a human, send up a flare to reveal your presence when the forces are of little threat to you. Besides Gandalf never used his powers against lesser threats he was the Maier against the Maier not the God like power levels to face off against the humans, he was sent with the express purpose of aiding the forces not fighting the war for them.

6.) Utter crap. They set the tree alite under him and he had to be rescued by the Eagles, read the book. If you want to bitch about it, go find Tolkien.

And so fuck, did he need to use his magic then to escape? No what is it about him that makes Eagles want to help him, we know they don't care much for the world at large, why does Shadowfax allow him to ride him, hmm more to gandalf than the abilty to set Acorns alite...

Animate objects are living beings, not fast moving objects.

Answered else where what are these propeties of Life you find as a coinvincing reason for resitence to Gandalfs Magic? So far no such reason has been presented except is living so it has some sort of resitence, we have no reason for it's existence but we'd like you to prove that living things don't have a resitence to the magic. (proof of a negative I believe) Rather prove that when facing a Maier power level creature Gandlaf's control over fire would have been useful in setting the creature on fire, if this can be presented then uyou have evidence until then SHUT THE FUCK UP. As it is CANNON fact from the writings of TOLKIEN that gandalf used his real full powers only at those instances. THIS is Cannon and no amount of whining about how it's Tolkien fanboy rantings will change the fact... So I am sick and Fucking tired of hearing the same old crap being spouted off, that basically you don't like a situation and it makes debates harde so obviously when the point is brought up it's fanboy rantings... and it's, tired old and babyish, and quite frankly I expected better from the people here.

Very generous of you for assuming that Gandalf can't set flesh alite, you know since HE NEVER DEMONSTRATED THE ABILITY EVER. Even when it was warranted. But fine, did you happen to see TPM? You know the part where Qui-Gon is melting the freakin' blast door. What you think that the heat doesn't radiate onto him? His robes should have caught on fire (they didn't), his lightsaber handle should have burned his fucking hands off (it didn't), his facial hair should have all been shriveled up and his eyes tosted (they weren't). Clearly Jedi have the ability to control the flow of heat away from themselves.

Yes yes, Yawn, the abilty to deflect heat away from you is not going to do much good, if your fucking clothes are on fire, as strangely enough thats touching you body... As for the lightsaber, logically it would be made off a material that stays cool, that does not conduct the heat, since we know lightsaber's can be used by non Jedi...

Even if the clothes were managed to set alite (which I still contest they won't be to begin with), did you see AotC, by the time Mace finishes his jump his robe is just smoking, but no longer burning. What you think that Yoda is going to just stand there, and ponder the fact that his clothes are alite. Hell if he wanted to, he could and then it would be buff Yoda vs Gandalf, since I have already demonstrated a Jedi's ability to channel heat away from themselves (Qui-Gon). Choose.

See above the clothes on fire is a lot closer than a blast door, as I don't remember Qui-Con standing with his face to door, rather he stood back as far as he was able, showing an upper limit... Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. You've presupossed an unlimted abilty to channel heat as their are no limitless powers...

[/Quote
Lets see, a 50 something man (who by the way manages to test his will against Sauron and win, yeah Mair are real scary

),
[/Quote]
Actually as a Numenor man I believe Arragor is in fact either older than 50 or has the youth of a 30 year old, as it is stated that one of the differance between a Numenoir man and a standard man is longer life, stronger bodies and minds etc.

a paranoid Dwarf (who is scared of the supernatural), and an Elf. And this sort of impresses me how? You are using a flawed argument, you assume they (Aragon, Legolas and Gimli) are somehow so strong-willed, whereas the opposite could also be true. The fact that Aragon used the seeing stone and withstood Sauron, shows the weak-mindness of the Mair.

Yes yes thats right God like beings older than Middle Earth have weak wills... yes makes complete sense dosn't it, no that argument is abuserd and I suspect you know it. Oh and how many times did Arragorn do it, and for how long, as I remeember he took one quick glimpse simply to Sauron the face of his enemy, and to distract him, never again did he look. I wonder why....

2.) The debate also includes setting the sword on fire, in contradiction to science, thereby debating the nature of Magic

I left this to last for a reason. Mainly because you are placing yourself on a perilous edge, and I will try and show you why this line of reasoning should be dropped right away. When Yoda uses the Force, wouldn't that percieved to be magic? Well let me put to you this way; Yoda uses the Force to lift an X-Wing (TESB), now science (or more acuratlly Newton's 3rd Law) tells us for every action there is an equal and opposit reaction. This means that as Yoda is 'holding up' the X-Wing, it's weight should be reacting on him. Now why wasn't Yoda squashed like a muppet-bug? To use your argument(s); it's magic and can't be limitted by science! Therefore, since it's magic, Yoda could just shift the entire Middle Earth into the nearest Star, and laugh his ass off! Do you see the obserdety in this claim? Hell I have cannon faucking evidence that Yoda could indeed to this; Yoda; Size matters not!

Well yes I do see the stupidity, from you... Read my arguments I have said magic has it's rules, Seperate to Sciences, so Yoda is limited from doing that, not BY FUCKING Science for the very reason you have pointed out that his use of the force in that scene breaks Newton's laws.... BUT DUE TO THE LAWS OF THE FORCE. Please read through what I have been saying all along, as i have had to repeat the same argument now countless times, and always the same Bloody counter comes up... but Science. Now you've just presented the same argument I've been saying all along.
The point is, since we have never seen any Jedi demonstrate this particular trick, and it would be far harder than moving an X-Wing (which is an achievement in-of itself and shouldn't be brushed aside lightly), it would be illogical to assume that he can. So since Gandalf was stuck up a freakin' tree and CHOSE to use MAGIC to set in-animate objects alite so that he could BURN ANIMATE objects, rather than using magic to just burn the animate objects outright, then he can't. Get it?

YAWN YAWN YAWN reuse of the argument above, as said he, as Cannon fact uses his power only when Approiate, he uses Maier powers against threats normal men cannot handle, Yawn that scene proves only that Goblins setting his tree on fire does not warrent the use of Maier power levels. power levels he displays during his fall from Khazid doom, 8 days of solid duelling, and more. One question could Yoda have duelled non stop for 8 Days, against the Balrog... and that was before he was gandalf the White.

Another flaw in the whole argument, even assuming some life resistence to magic, Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the grey, so Gandalf the grey limits cannot be applied to Gandalf the White...

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-01-14 10:57pm

Well so far Gandalf's staff is an aid. It isn't to just represent status or anything of the sort.
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.ht ... tml and http://www.lordoftherings.net/guide/index_wizards.html

Somebody said that Gandalf staff was suppose to show is status or something like that. Just thought i would point this out.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Gandalf the white vs yoda AOTC

Who would win in a fight