Your thoughts on the Gundam series

[Darksider]

Hooray it failed. Now that Zaku is gonna KICK SOME ASS! Hopefully this will have more Federation bashing because why change the status quo?

This is something that has always pissed me off about Gundam. I could deal with it somewhat in the OYW stories because they were just that fucking cool, but I got sick of it real quick in SeeD when Zaft started mass-killing the evil america..... I mean Atlantic federation soldiers while the noble nation of japa.... I mean Orb fought back with great strength.

[Commander 598]

ZAFT might have a better defense when retreating from Earth due to Freedom and Justice being still controlled by ZAFT (possibly, or the Clyne Faction stil steals them)

You're missing the point: There would be no Freedom and Justice if there was no Kira in the story anymore...perhaps replaced by ONE new Made in PLANT Gundam for Athrun, unless you want to introduce a new character that's either going to pull a Destiny in the show by becoming the new main character or basically just be a "nameless" and effectively useless grunt.

[Saxtonite]

You're missing the point: There would be no Freedom and Justice if there was no Kira in the story anymore...perhaps replaced by ONE new Made in PLANT Gundam for Athrun, unless you want to introduce a new character that's either going to pull a Destiny in the show by becoming the new main character or basically just be a "nameless" and effectively useless grunt.

I was answering it from an "in-universe" perspective, sorry.

[Black Admiral]

This is something that has always pissed me off about Gundam. I could deal with it somewhat in the OYW stories because they were just that fucking cool, but I got sick of it real quick in SeeD when Zaft started mass-killing the evil america..... I mean Atlantic federation soldiers while the noble nation of japa.... I mean Orb fought back with great strength.

Funnily enough, if you look closely at GS/GSD, ZAFT start looking a whole lot worse than the EA. Can go into detail if asked, but a whole lot of the "EA = teh evil" stuff is basically ZAFT propaganda and/or blatant hypocrisy on ZAFT's part.

[Saxtonite]

Funnily enough, if you look closely at GS/GSD, ZAFT start looking a whole lot worse than the EA. Can go into detail if asked,

Can you?

Now that we're on a related subject, I remembered a question. Why aren't there many hispanics in the Atlantic Federation's military? I know many hispanics do have a lighter skin color so likely they can be in the miltary but you don't notice any. IIRC ther might have been some in the scenes of angry crowds on Earth against ZAFT.

[Darksider]

Funnily enough, if you look closely at GS/GSD, ZAFT start looking a whole lot worse than the EA. Can go into detail if asked, but a whole lot of the "EA = teh evil" stuff is basically ZAFT propaganda and/or blatant hypocrisy on ZAFT's part.

I know Zaft is a whole lot worse, I believe you and I have discussed that before in a thread about EA militarism. Shin is basically the only member of the Zaft military with a functioning moral compass, but he's too easily manipulated by Durandal and Rey. The point of SeeD is that everyone has good and evil, except perfect little japa.... i mean Orb.

[Black Admiral]

Funnily enough, if you look closely at GS/GSD, ZAFT start looking a whole lot worse than the EA. Can go into detail if asked,

Can you?

Well, there is the earlier-mentioned example of one ZAFT Line and one ZAFT Medical Corps officers apparently considering it perfectly acceptable to vivisect a prisoner of war; something morally reprehensible, several different kinds of illegal besides, and not a particularly good idea even leaving aside those considerations.

Then there's the separate approaches to counter-insurgency operations; the EA, from what little information there is (and leaving aside the Phantom Pain for a moment) seem to restrict themselves to going after the people who're actually attacking them. Going by some of Andy's comments (GS ep. 17 or 18, I honestly can't recall which), there's the implication that the majority of ZAFT commanders have little or no problems with massacring civilians in retaliation for partisan attacks.

Finally, for now (have to look further to dig up more examples), there's ZAFT's whinging prior to the Second Bloody Valentine War about how the EA won't believe them about the events relating to the fall of Junius Seven.

Among other reasons that the EA, and more importantly the Atlantic Federation, wouldn't believe them, the only actual information the Atlantic Fed has on what went on when ZAFT was - allegedly - trying to blow up Junius Seven is a collection of gun-camera photos from the Phantom Pain team's MSes; a set of photos which have passed through the hands of Dijbril. Now, if you think he's not going to edit them to make ZAFT look as bad as possible, I have some cheap, beach front property in Birmingham to sell you. Razz

Secondly, ZAFT, apparently without providing their own side of things, conceded that the version the AF had was "more or less" true. Given what the AF knew, that's tantamount to an admission of guilt. I'll grant that the source of ZAFT's conceding the issue (Yuna Roma Seiran) is a known liar and utter cad, but I think he was telling the truth there; no reason for him to lie in that situation.

Third, if I recall GS Stargazer correctly, shortly after the colony fragments hit there were a number of terrorist attacks using fairly modern ZAFT mobile suits. Now, ZAFT could claim - and I'll concede they might be telling the truth, however unlikely it is - that those had nothing to do with them; but, if you were the Atlantic Federation president, would you believe a word of it? (although given ZAFT's generally amateurish behaviour I reckon they left the serial numbers on the things)

Given those details (and probably more I'm forgetting), ZAFT's whining comes off as rather pathetic.

[VF5SS]

jesus christ, stop talking about seed. you guys are as bad as sidewinder

Anyways, he's a summary of Mobile Suit controls that Mark Simmons made based on an entry in one of the Entertainment Bibles.

MS PILOT MANUAL
Paraphrased from "Entertainment Bible 1: MS Encylopedia, One Year War Edition"


1. Console Explanation

An introduction establishes that, yes, this is the cockpit of the Gelgoog Jaeger. The images on the four main monitors are derived from the 12 cameras distributed around the mobile suit's body, to present the external world as if you were sitting in its head. (You're warned not to forget to protect the torso, where you're actually sitting.)

The communications monitor on the top console is used to communicate with the deck crew and operators aboard your carrier ship. Thanks to Minovsky interference, you can only get visuals over short distances; after that, it's voice only. Although there's a dedicated rear-view display, you'll get an automatic verbal warning if an enemy gets behind you, and you can then use the controls on the left console to put the rear-view image up on the main monitor.

Most of the mobile suit's critical functions are handled by the control sticks and foot pedals. The sticks control the flight direction, and also house the trigger and weapon selector, while the foot pedals provide throttle and braking functions. Even in combat, most of the mobile suit's functions are computer-controlled; as a result, even a grade-schooler could operate it.


Panel and Console Diagram

A diagram calls out the major controls in the mobile suit cockpit. The diagram is based on the latter-model Zeon cockpit used in Gundam 0080 (and the manual as a whole uses the Gelgoog Jaeger as its example mobile suit). The cockpit consists of a seat and four monitor panels - front, top, left, and right. The front and top monitors sport small control consoles, and the other instruments are built into the seat or its side consoles.

The top monitor console includes two smaller screens - a rear-view monitor and a communications monitor (on the left and right sides respectively). In between are a set of sensor mode selectors.

The front monitor console bears, left to right, generator starter switches; a threat warning panel; and monitor toggle switches.

The left and right armrests of the seat sport almost identical controls. Each side has a sliding control stick - I think the right is for weapons, and the left for steering, but there may be some functional overlap - plus a row of ten buttons for manually activating the apogee motors. The left armrest also sports a throttle lever, which seems to function something like a gear shift for the thrusters. Additional side consoles are attached to the armrests; these contain controls for communications and external monitor modes (on the left), drive/fuel system mode selectors, and warning monitors (on the right). A mysterious "index sub-console" dangles off the right console.

Finally, there are the two foot pedals - brake on the left, throttle on the right. The throttle pedal functions like a car's accelerator. (Note that the upper limit of your thruster output is governed by the throttle lever on the left armrest.)


2. Launch Sequence

When you enter the cockpit, first buckle up your seatbelt! Then turn on the generator (via the front console), check the warning monitors (on the right console), and use the monitor toggles (front console again) to switch to systems check mode. If anything's wrong, holler for the deck crew.

Now you're ready to get on the catapult. Set the drive system mode to "walk" (via the right console) and proceed to the catapult as per your operator's directions, picking up your weapons on the way. Use the throttle pedal to walk forward, the control sticks to turn, and the brake pedal to stop. (I think you're meant to keep the brake pedal down until you're ready to launch.)

Once you're on the catapult, it's time to warm up your thrusters. First set the drive/fuel system mode to "catapult shoot" (right console again), then release the lock on the throttle lever (left armrest) and slide it into "idling" position. Check the warning monitors again, and set the throttle lever to "taxi-ing" position. (This lets you use your thrusters to pick up a little extra speed during launch.)

When your operator gives you the signal, you're clear to launch. Just release the brake pedal, and you'll be shot into space. Using your thrusters as little as possible (to conserve propellant), join your teammates in formation. You can use the index sub-console (attached to the right console) to load pre-programmed mission routes, including your return course at the end of the mission.

(Note: From the following chapters I gather that, after launch, the throttle lever position should be set to "idling" - zero thrust - and the drive/fuel system should be set to "cruising" mode, but it's not clearly specified. I guess that's covered in the omitted Chapter 2.5, "Flying in a Straight Line.")


3. Combat Sequence

The warning panel (on the front console) will alert you to approaching enemies - in this example, because your mono-eye's infra-red sensors have picked up their thruster flares. Set the sensor mode to "scan" (via the top console), and the mono-eye will automatically seek out enemy targets. As you enter battle, set the drive/fuel system mode to "combat," and crank up the throttle lever for bursts of propellant-burning speed.

Set the combat mode selector on the right control stick to "shooting," and release the trigger lock. A targeting reticule will then appear on your main monitor, while enemy units will be tagged with target symbols. Use the control stick to move the reticule onto the desired target, get a lock-on, and pull the trigger. In close-quarters combat, set the combat mode selector to "melee." Go a few seconds at full throttle - can't waste propellant! - to close the distance, then pull the trigger to swipe with your beam sword.

In the course of this chapter's combat example, there's some discussion of dealing with battle damage. You can use the index sub-console to switch hands, the manual activation buttons will turn red to indicate lost apogee motors, et cetera. Also, as you use up your propellant, you should adjust the throttle lever to reduce your thrust.

Once combat is over, you can return to your mission route. Set the drive/fuel system mode back to "cruising" while you check for damage and glance at your propellant levels. All clear? Set the sensor mode back to "warning" (via the top console), put the throttle lever back into "idling" position, and continue on your course.


4. Escape Sequence

This chapter details the workings of the emergency ejection mechanism, which is activated by opening a box under the seat and pulling on the "escape ring" inside. The mobile suit's chest armor blows off, and then the seat is launched about a quarter of a second later. The seat's rocket motors fire for up to 30 seconds, with a peak acceleration of 16 gees; within five seconds you'll be a kilometer away from the mobile suit, safely clear of the blast radius. (I note that these figures indicate an average acceleration of 8 gees.)

Once you've ejected, you can maneuver the drifting seat with its built-in apogee motors. The life-support systems provide five days' worth of air, and three days' worth of food and water (presumably delivered in-helmet), while a beacon signals to friendly rescuers. Or unfriendly ones - thanks, Antarctic Treaty!

The chapter closes by discussing how the ejection mechanism can be employed in other environments - inside space colonies, on Earth, on the moon, et cetera.


5. Return Sequence

Assuming your mission went well, you now get to return to your carrier ship. Your operator will guide you through the final stage of the approach. Once you reach the ship's hull, turn on your foot magnets, set the throttle lever to "idling," and set your drive/fuel system mode to "walk." Then, once you're safely back in the hangar, switch the drive/fuel system to "maintenance" mode. This will shut down the thrusters, lock all the drive systems, and finally power down the generator. Good job!


-- Mark

[Ford Prefect]

That is actually really cool. Looks like Destructionator's theories ont he nature of MS controls are correct. Even a grade-schooler could operate it, so long as they can reach the pedals.

[Ford Prefect]

D, you're supposed to shout vindication!

In any case, I see what you mean in regards to computer assisted combat, and it's fairly easy to make it work in the context of ace pilots, no less. If Pilot Joe indicates a target, but his aim isn't all that true, then the computer corrects for him, subtly adjusting rotation and direction until the shot is superior, whereas someone like Char is better coordinated, so his MS doesn't need to adjust nearly as much as it does for Pilot Joe. There is a difference in lag-time, which can be exploited to move out of the way - even if it's only a second or two of lag for the average pilot, that's enough to dodge out of the way. Conversely, Char's fraction of a second of lag is not enough time and so people die.

This actually gives Lockon Stratos' sniping module in the Dynames Gundam more of a purpose, now that It hink about it. Lockon was a crack sniper before becoming a Gundam pilot, and the sniping module is designed to let him use fully manual targetting.

[Darksider]

Contrast with the PS2 Federation vs Zeon game, where you jam the triangle button over and over again causing the game to show a pretty cool beam saber animation.

Don't talk about trying to do cool shit in that game. The controls are so shitty that anything you pull off that looks cool is purely by accident.

I may have despised Mechassault for it's raping and pillaging of battletech canon, but one thing it did get right was the control scheme. That is how a mech game should be done on a console.

[Ford Prefect]

I may have despised Mechassault for it's raping and pillaging of battletech canon, but one thing it did get right was the control scheme. That is how a mech game should be done on a console.

Don't be talking about BattleTech in this thread.

More seriously, you cannot just apply the control scheme of one mecha game to another. I have no doubt that the MechAssault controls would fail miserably if applied to Armored Core 4 (Or For Answer, for that matter), and vice versa. It is entirely dependant upon the style of the mecha in question.

[Darksider]

More seriously, you cannot just apply the control scheme of one mecha game to another. I have no doubt that the MechAssault controls would fail miserably if applied to Armored Core 4 (Or For Answer, for that matter), and vice versa. It is entirely dependant upon the style of the mecha in question.

Point conceded.

Still, it seems like every gundam game Ive ever played has had some degree of shittiness to it's controls. Federation vs. Zeon is one of the best, but the quick dodge option is useless unless you're already far enough away to dodge without it. The worst I have ever encountered was the control scheme in Journey to Jaburo. Good god did that suck.

[VF5SS]

Contrast with the PS2 Federation vs Zeon game, where you jam the triangle button over and over again causing the game to show a pretty cool beam saber animation.

I get what you're saying, but the Vs games aren't the best example since you can also pull off flying flip kicks with the right unit. Funny someone should mention Journey to Jaburo since the game was de-suckified and turned into the much superior Gundam Lost War Chronicles. One thing they kept was the sweet jumping which let you land on top of Gau carriers and shoot them until they crashed into the ground.

[Ford Prefect]

I get what you're saying, but the Vs games aren't the best example since you can also pull off flying flip kicks with the right unit.

That seems right up my alley. I'd crack up just like when I was watching Gundam Evolve: Matrix Gundam which was incredibly silly.

[Commander 598]

I'm a bit late in getting back to post with the above couple of posts, but I'll carry on with my talk anyway.

What do you mean by "carries it out"? What's there to carry out? Just put your crosshair on the target and press the trigger.

With a gun, the computer could try to adjust your aim slightly before actually firing. I'd imagine the trigger isn't as much a 'fire' button, but more of an 'authorization to fire' button.

The reaction time of the human pilot to seeing that he has a shot lined up and actually pressing the button could be such that he misses. With a machine gun, this isn't a big deal; you can spray and pray. With a beam cannon though, you don't have that kind of ammo. You want every shot to hit.

By giving the computer authorization to fire when it sees a good shot, you let it spend a fraction of a second waiting for the next good shot to come up; it can quickly calculate the locked target's velocity, minutely adjust the gun hand's alignment, then fire.

The computer might even do something that seems weird, like swing its other arm or the legs to do the targetting adjustment if in space. A computer would have the needed precision to make seemingly random movements give perfect rotation.

A pilot might feel like his trigger has control lag, but in that tiny lag, the computer can turn a late shot into a perfect shot.


When fighting with swords, pressing the trigger tells the computer it is allowed to take a swing, and it decides exactly what swing it wants to do and sends the commands to the arms to make it happen, something that would be virtually impossible to do with a human manually working a joystick.


Again with the video games, but if you have R.A.D. on the PS2, try doing precision swings with the arms on your robot in that game. It can't really be done; the best way to play there is to just jerk the joystick and club the target with brute force. It is hard enough to even target your swings; getting fancy invites death.

Contrast with the PS2 Federation vs Zeon game, where you jam the triangle button over and over again causing the game to show a pretty cool beam saber animation.

I don't think I would give it that kind of aimbot, at least by default anyway. Remember, these are machines whose sensors have canonically been fooled repeatedly by balloons in an environment that is usually so dense with ECM that you can almost see it in the air (Minovsky particles are said to have some visual effects according to some sources). It would obviously work fine for melee weapons since the target is going to be right in your face, but leave it the fuck out of my gun sights.

[VF5SS]

I don't think I would give it that kind of aimbot, at least by default anyway. Remember, these are machines whose sensors have canonically been fooled repeatedly by balloons in an environment that is usually so dense with ECM that you can almost see it in the air (Minovsky particles are said to have some visual effects according to some sources). It would obviously work fine for melee weapons since the target is going to be right in your face, but leave it the fuck out of my gun sights.

Well the image enhancing system is supposed to replace poor images with better CG models when possible. I don't know if the dummy MS balloons have quite a dramatic effect as they do in most of the games. However, they do provide brief cover and have the added effect of exploding like a space mine. The only balloons that were used in a large scale ruse was the ones of Char's Neo Zeon fleet in CCA.

Also here's a cool clip of Lost War Chronicles for the curious. I had to say having three Gelgoog G-types in the end game of the Zeon side is not as game breaking as one may think.

[Commander 598]

I don't think I would give it that kind of aimbot, at least by default anyway. Remember, these are machines whose sensors have canonically been fooled repeatedly by balloons in an environment that is usually so dense with ECM that you can almost see it in the air (Minovsky particles are said to have some visual effects according to some sources). It would obviously work fine for melee weapons since the target is going to be right in your face, but leave it the fuck out of my gun sights.

Well the image enhancing system is supposed to replace poor images with better CG models when possible. I don't know if the dummy MS balloons have quite a dramatic effect as they do in most of the games. However, they do provide brief cover and have the added effect of exploding like a space mine. The only balloons that were used in a large scale ruse was the ones of Char's Neo Zeon fleet in CCA.

Also here's a cool clip of Lost War Chronicles for the curious. I had to say having three Gelgoog G-types in the end game of the Zeon side is not as game breaking as one may think.

Fun fact: In the MSG novels, it is stated that even OYW era MS have the same or a similar CPU system that would enable the effect not witnessed in animated Gundam until the Panoramic Cockpit. It's also stated that they use laser based sensors and that the RX-78's "face" is somewhat hampering it's overall function as having two "eyes" doesn't work that well with the imaging.

[Ford Prefect]

Also here's a cool clip of Lost War Chronicles for the curious. I had to say having three Gelgoog G-types in the end game of the Zeon side is not as game breaking as one may think.

Seig Zeon! It's always fairly amusing to see Zeon crush grunt suits by the bucket load.

It's also stated that they use laser based sensors and that the RX-78's "face" is somewhat hampering it's overall function as having two "eyes" doesn't work that well with the imaging.

Well, they had to mess up its design somehow.

I don't think I would give it that kind of aimbot, at least by default anyway. Remember, these are machines whose sensors have canonically been fooled repeatedly by balloons in an environment that is usually so dense with ECM that you can almost see it in the air (Minovsky particles are said to have some visual effects according to some sources). It would obviously work fine for melee weapons since the target is going to be right in your face, but leave it the fuck out of my gun sights.

I'm fairly certain that the system only corrects your aim, as opposed to aiming for you. The system would only alter your aim to better hit something which you have selected to kill, which means that if the system has been fooled, you have been as well.

[Ryushikaze]

Contrast with the PS2 Federation vs Zeon game, where you jam the triangle button over and over again causing the game to show a pretty cool beam saber animation.

I get what you're saying, but the Vs games aren't the best example since you can also pull off flying flip kicks with the right unit. Funny someone should mention Journey to Jaburo since the game was de-suckified and turned into the much superior Gundam Lost War Chronicles. One thing they kept was the sweet jumping which let you land on top of Gau carriers and shoot them until they crashed into the ground.

Wait, they made a version of Journey to Jaburo with a desuckified engine? I might have to hunt LWC down. Does it have the same irritating rezero effect that JJ did?
I never did beat JJ's main story mode. I kept having bizarre clipping/ tracking errors against the final Z'gok. I got stuck on that pillar, or shot through it so many times I lost count.

[VF5SS]

Wait, they made a version of Journey to Jaburo with a desuckified engine? I might have to hunt LWC down. Does it have the same irritating rezero effect that JJ did?
I never did beat JJ's main story mode. I kept having bizarre clipping/ tracking errors against the final Z'gok. I got stuck on that pillar, or shot through it so many times I lost count.

Yeah, LWC is like a million times better. More MS to unlock, better environments, and a nicely tweaked engine.

[Commander 598]

Also here's a cool clip of Lost War Chronicles for the curious. I had to say having three Gelgoog G-types in the end game of the Zeon side is not as game breaking as one may think.

Seig Zeon! It's always fairly amusing to see Zeon crush grunt suits by the bucket load.

It's also stated that they use laser based sensors and that the RX-78's "face" is somewhat hampering it's overall function as having two "eyes" doesn't work that well with the imaging.

Well, they had to mess up its design somehow.

I don't think I would give it that kind of aimbot, at least by default anyway. Remember, these are machines whose sensors have canonically been fooled repeatedly by balloons in an environment that is usually so dense with ECM that you can almost see it in the air (Minovsky particles are said to have some visual effects according to some sources). It would obviously work fine for melee weapons since the target is going to be right in your face, but leave it the fuck out of my gun sights.

I'm fairly certain that the system only corrects your aim, as opposed to aiming for you. The system would only alter your aim to better hit something which you have selected to kill, which means that if the system has been fooled, you have been as well.

[optional] Automatic target tracking = Okay. Machine adjusting my aim to hit *over here* when I'm trying to hit *over there* = Not okay.

[Ford Prefect]

[optional] Automatic target tracking = Okay. Machine adjusting my aim to hit *over here* when I'm trying to hit *over there* = Not okay.

The latter is certainly not what Destructionator would have been proposing, and the former is more or less stated by the Gelgoog pilot manual that VF5SS posted. I can more or less the necessity of such a system, if only because random changes in velocity could be more effectively compensated for by a computer than a human (unless you're a Newtype or something).

[Commander 598]

[optional] Automatic target tracking = Okay. Machine adjusting my aim to hit *over here* when I'm trying to hit *over there* = Not okay.

The latter is certainly not what Destructionator would have been proposing, and the former is more or less stated by the Gelgoog pilot manual that VF5SS posted. I can more or less the necessity of such a system, if only because random changes in velocity could be more effectively compensated for by a computer than a human (unless you're a Newtype or something).

I think modern fighters already do that, except they don't do the aiming for you, just tell you where to aim.

[Saxtonite]

and not a particularly good idea even leaving aside those considerations.

it's not? It's ineffective?

Then there's the separate approaches to counter-insurgency operations; the EA, from what little information there is (and leaving aside the Phantom Pain for a moment) seem to restrict themselves to going after the people who're actually attacking them.

IIRC wasn't the Earth Alliance reaction to swatches of Eurasia seceding random shootings? Or arguably, was that ZAFT propaganda/bias as this is from ZAFT's perspective.

Given those details (and probably more I'm forgetting), ZAFT's whining comes off as rather pathetic.

okay. I was referring to you saying ZAFT was killing off civilians, etc.