Avatar Force Sub: UNSC (Halo)

[adam_grif]

Nah dude. I reckon it could make you some Tea, Earl Grey if you asked it nice enough.

Wonder if they go SQUAWK!

[LaCroix]

But it baffles me that there wasn't a huge number of friendly kills during that dog-fighting scene. As far as I remember the guys in the the doors and on the shuttle were shooting pell-mell at everything that was big and flying. A horrible cross-fire situation. Those were rather heavy guns, so they should have caused at least as much damage as the Na'vi did.

[adam_grif]

Not as surprising as the accuracy of a bow and arrow being shot while riding dragon-back in free fall

[NecronLord]

Well then, now you know I guess.

What I'm saying is it has limited/questionable canonical value, as it is not stated in the film. Now you know?

Pandorapedia is nice, but it's also the source of the cringeworthy FTL-comms thing, I'm not sure what the canon policy is as of yet, but I'm not sure how high a promotional website with content from a not-yet finalised book really rates.

[Shroom Man 777]

To be fair, they DO kill things by dive-bombing-arrow-harpooning prey pterodactyls for food on a regular basis.

[NecronLord]

But it baffles me that there wasn't a huge number of friendly kills during that dog-fighting scene. As far as I remember the guys in the the doors and on the shuttle were shooting pell-mell at everything that was big and flying. A horrible cross-fire situation. Those were rather heavy guns, so they should have caused at least as much damage as the Na'vi did.

If Pandorapedia is to be believed, they have advanced IFF weapon-lockout systems.

Not as surprising as the accuracy of a bow and arrow being shot while riding dragon-back in free fall

That would be more adroit if there was evidence of a particularly high hit ratio. There were hundreds of Na'vi... I saw about two arrows successfully kill air targets.

[adam_grif]

What I'm saying is it has limited/questionable canonical value, as it is not stated in the film. Now you know?

Pandorapedia is nice, but it's also the source of the cringeworthy FTL-comms thing, I'm not sure what the canon policy is as of yet, but I'm not sure how high a promotional website with content from a not-yet finalised book really rates.

I don't really think there's any harm in having Pandorapedia fill in the blanks so long as the information isn't contradicted by the film(s), at least until we can establish some kind of canon pecking order.

It's packed with technical details, including the Venture Star stuff that Cameron hired the technical advisor to do. It seems like a dumping ground for all the worldbuilding that Cameron and Co did during the pre-production.

To be fair, they DO kill things by dive-bombing-arrow-harpooning prey pterodactyls for food on a regular basis.

Yes, which itself is pretty suspect

That would be more adroit if there was evidence of a particularly high hit ratio. There were hundreds of Na'vi... I saw about two arrows successfully kill air targets.

Yeah, but it's not like they really needed it either. They managed to win through a series of action movie stunts, of which the dive bombing fluke shots were merely a small part. I'm just calling 'em like I'm seeing 'em. It's not like we got closeups of all the attempted dive bombings to tally up on a table and work out ratios with.

[LaCroix]

But it baffles me that there wasn't a huge number of friendly kills during that dog-fighting scene. As far as I remember the guys in the the doors and on the shuttle were shooting pell-mell at everything that was big and flying. A horrible cross-fire situation. Those were rather heavy guns, so they should have caused at least as much damage as the Na'vi did.

If Pandorapedia is to be believed, they have advanced IFF weapon-lockout systems.

In hand-held guns? I am talking about the grunts in the doors and on top of the shuttle. they were using the same gun (MaDeuce variant?) that Jake had with him as he went in the jungle.

Not as surprising as the accuracy of a bow and arrow being shot while riding dragon-back in free fall

That would be more adroit if there was evidence of a particularly high hit ratio. There were hundreds of Na'vi... I saw about two arrows successfully kill air targets.

It's very hard to miss a target you're moving straight at. Especially since they shot at point blank distance. I wouldn't wonder if some of them actually slammed into the copter while trying.

I remember most of the kills were done by landing on the slow-moving copters and ripping stuff off.

[[R_H]]

These people have machinery which eats through jungle like it's not even there, and they only cleared a 30m wide strip of forest around their base in a potentially hostile zone which the base administrator referred to as being on the brink of war? That's retarded.

In any case, we know they have heavy-duty forest-clearing equipment. With a week to prepare, they could easily clear a damned kilometre-wide firing zone around their base, dig in, and slaughter any attackers with all of those gun emplacements.

It's also pretty retarded that they use acidic waste from the mining operation instead of a herbicide.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Getting back to the OP, would Warthogs really be the best equivalent to the amp suits? I really can't think of anything would be equivalent other than the Cyclops utility mechs from Halo Wars (RTS on the Xbox 360) that Saverok mentioned and those were more or less phased out early on due to being ineffective and relegated to combat engineering roles apparently. Then again, I suppose that could fit in well with the second hand/older shit the RDA forces had.

Even then I have to wander if those wouldn't fare alot better than the AMP suits. According to the game fluff they utilize them for combat demolitions work. According to the artwork on the wiki page they appear to equipped with some kind of pneumatic hammer, which is of questionable use other than knocking down trees, as most of the wild life seemed abit too agile to really be hit with it. In game, its kinda hard to tell what their attack really is, though they apparently can rip chunks off vehicles and buildings and throw them stuff. I can't really say if that would be any indicator of strength. They also are capable of moving at a fairly decent pace. These two are of course RTS game mechanics and are thus highly suspect. I really don't see how they'd be used for battlfield demolitions without the use for explosives and apparently some kind of cutting device, though I doubt explosives used for demolitions would be easily jurry rigged for combat on the spot. Then again, could it be possible to turn said explosives into some kind of makeshift grenade, and thus turning them into some kind of makeshift grenadier with superior range to that of a human? Still I question how useful such device would be, seeing as it would lack the trait of being designed to produce shrapnel like a true antipersonel grenade. I am just not seeing really how you could utilize them, even though they appear to be the closet analog to the AMP suits.

If we do go with the use of Warthogs, I also would question their use in the ground engagement. The RDA was obviously expecting arial threats, seeing as they had manned bunkers on the shuttle's dorsal surface. Wouldn't it make more sense for the UNSC to somehow deploy the Warthogs on the shuttle, as the vast majority of them it seems are equipped with the chaingun, than rockets or the gaus cannons. I'd imagine those would really tear up the banshees, though the exposed gunner may be an issue, though no more than the mercs in bunkers from the original scenario.

I also have a question how would nerve agents and the like affect the Pandoran fauna? It appears that UNSC forces regularly carry whats labled VX 7 (obviously a reference to VX nerve agent) and gas masks as regular equipment, as I beleive we find crates of the stuff scattered about what appear to be makeshift encampments in Halo 2 and maybe Halo 3. Halo 2 in particular would seem to imply this, as we find these scattered about Delta Halo and the humans only had one frigate that didn't appear to on any kind of special assignment when the events of the game happened. Then again, I suppose it's also possible this is not the case as I recall there was speculation of a prior ONI presence on the ring due to the fact that there were crates of field stoves along with all the crates of stuff like replacement armor in these encampments (basically stuff you don't expect to find a rapidly deploying force not expecting any form of prolonged engagement to bother with) and the number of human flood we encounter. That is of course only fan speculation. My point is that if UNSC forces regularly deploy nerve agents and since Pandoran life seems similar enough to us in how they work, then the natives and even the big beasties may be truly screwed since to my understanding nerve agents have lethality measured in seconds to minutes from exposure dependant on cocentation.

[NecronLord]

I don't really think there's any harm in having Pandorapedia fill in the blanks so long as the information isn't contradicted by the film(s), at least until we can establish some kind of canon pecking order.

It's packed with technical details, including the Venture Star stuff that Cameron hired the technical advisor to do. It seems like a dumping ground for all the worldbuilding that Cameron and Co did during the pre-production.

And some of it is simply diabolically bad. Doctor Lovecraft the Human Experimentor of the "Dark Dreamer" Project who made Avatars with Psychic Links?

Yeah, but it's not like they really needed it either. They managed to win through a series of action movie stunts, of which the dive bombing fluke shots were merely a small part. I'm just calling 'em like I'm seeing 'em. It's not like we got closeups of all the attempted dive bombings to tally up on a table and work out ratios with.

They didn't fucking win. They were getting annihilated. The only named Na'vi who survived the battle was Neytiri. And she was cowering behind a tree.

[adam_grif]

And some of it is simply diabolically bad. Doctor Lovecraft the Human Experimentor of the "Dark Dreamer" Project who made Avatars with Psychic Links?

Are you telling me it's non-canonical because it's unscientific or because the names are lame?

They didn't fucking win. They were getting annihilated. The only named Na'vi who survived the battle was Neytiri. And she was cowering behind a tree.

They defeated the RDA forces and drove them off Pandora. I'd call that a win, yeah?

[Shroom Man 777]

THEY didn't. Eywa did. I mean, if the animals didn't eat everyone, those Scorpion Gunships and the Dragon would've done to the Soul Tree what they did to Home Tree.

The Na'vi didn't beat them. Eywa did, mang. So the Na'vi aren't "victorious" since they didn't really "win" over anyone. The Na'vi forces got fucked.

[adam_grif]

THEY didn't. Eywa did. I mean, if the animals didn't eat everyone, those Scorpion Gunships and the Dragon would've done to the Soul Tree what they did to Home Tree.

The Na'vi didn't beat them. Eywa did, mang. So the Na'vi aren't "victorious" since they didn't really "win" over anyone. The Na'vi forces got fucked.

Pff, technicality. The Na'vi side won the conflict. That's like saying Gondor didn't win the siege of Minas Tirith, the ghost army did. Unless my memory is failing me, the Na'vi dragon riders cleared out the majority of the air support yeah?

[Shroom Man 777]

The Na'vi dragon riders got killed en masse after downing a couple of gunships. Then before Eywa's intervention, the only one left flying was Jake and there were still a fuckton of gunships before Eywa sent moar draggins to eat them all.

I am sure if the Na'vi went SQUAWK! SQUAWK! the UNSC would have considerably more trouble dealing with 'em.

[Srelex]

The Na'vi dragon riders got killed en masse after downing a couple of gunships. Then before Eywa's intervention, the only one left flying was Jake and there were still a fuckton of gunships before Eywa sent moar draggins to eat them all.

I am sure if the Na'vi went SQUAWK! SQUAWK! the UNSC would have considerably more trouble dealing with 'em.

Only Jake was left? Could've sworn there was more.

[Sarevok]

No Shroom is quite correct. Towards end of the battle Jake frantically tries to search for anyone and finds to his horror no one responding. He radios his human allies and navi commanders who were given transceivers and looks for other riders in the air and on the ground.Only Neytirii responded and she was minutes from imminent and inevitable doom herself.

[Shroom Man 777]

Seriously. Come to think about it, man, that was very sad. His glorious last hurrah charge of freedom fightingers ended up getting fucking decimated.

[Grif]

At least it was a sobering change from the RAR!natives implausibly winning the battle despite being armed with inferior weapons (*cough*logs*cough*) like the Ewoks did.

[LaCroix]

Seriously. Come to think about it, man, that was very sad. His glorious last hurrah charge of freedom fightingers ended up getting fucking decimated.

He would have been lucky if it were only that. To decimate in the original meaning was 'kill one in ten'. At Pandora, it was the other way round, with just about one in ten alive, but probably wounded. They weren't decimated or massacred, they were rammed by two-by-fours.

Coming from earth, he should have know that you never, ever, under no circumstances do a 'bayonet charge' at multiple machine guns.

At least it was a sobering change from the RAR!natives implausibly winning the battle despite being armed with inferior weapons (*cough*logs*cough*) like the Ewoks did.

Do I really have to remind you that the Ewoks were getting slaughtered by the dozens, loosing badly until Chewy did his Tarzan stunt and captured a walker? The walker he used to kill the other walker and round up stormtroopers, tipping the scale? Do I?

[Sarevok]

Actually Ewoks bagged quite a few AT-ST vehicles themselves by using logs and ropes. Whether that makes Ewoks badass or Imperials incompetent I don't know.

[LaCroix]

The logs did work on two occasions, but I remember most vividly the Ewoks being pulled after the AT-ST when thy tried to topple it with a rope. Or that the EAF (Ewok Air Force) was shot down after an unsuccessful bombing run.

And the Ewoks were badass. The happily continued roasting their prisoners even AFTER those prisoners had an obvious CONVERSATION with their guests of honor (C3PO and Leia, who both were accepted as participants and not bothered). So they don't mind cannibalism.

[PeZook]

Coming from earth, he should have know that you never, ever, under no circumstances do a 'bayonet charge' at multiple machine guns.

I'm not sure he even had much of a battle plan. Co-ordinating anything more complicated than "attack them when I tell you to" would be...problematic with what he had, since it requires training and regimentation to pull off.

Of course, I have no fucking idea why Norm went Charge Of The Light Brigade with those horse dudes. Did he really think one machine gun would've made any difference?

[Serafina]

Of course, I have no fucking idea why Norm went Charge Of The Light Brigade with those horse dudes. Did he really think one machine gun would've made any difference?

Norm was a scientist who propably did not have the slightest clue about combat.

[NecronLord]

And some of it is simply diabolically bad. Doctor Lovecraft the Human Experimentor of the "Dark Dreamer" Project who made Avatars with Psychic Links?

Are you telling me it's non-canonical because it's unscientific or because the names are lame?

There is no 'official' canon policy.

Got that?

There is no canon.

Fans usually consider the default option to be primary-work only, or written-by-single-primary-creator only to be valid material, but that's only a default option. Of course the validity of any canon policy is down to the fans, and yes, that does mean we get to exclude stuff for being just plain stupid. We do that selectively anyway; most people here would tell you Glove of Darth Vader isn't worth discussing or considering part of Star Wars, even though officially it's part of the continuity.

Pff, technicality. The Na'vi side won the conflict. That's like saying Gondor didn't win the siege of Minas Tirith, the ghost army did. Unless my memory is failing me, the Na'vi dragon riders cleared out the majority of the air support yeah?

For the record, Gondor (and Rohan) did win that battle. The Army of the Dead allowed Gondorian reinforcements to capture the Corsair's ships, and Aragorn led this army to the Pellanor fields. This seems like a hijack, but it illustrates a key difference; Tolkien's work does have a canon policy of sorts, which is to say only his actual writings are considered canonical by the license holders, while the postumously published material is considered to have lesser standing, and changes made in films and other licensed products (such as the books produced by games workshop) have no value. Avatar, so far, has no official canon policy.

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By the way, Pandorapedia also has an eplicit mention that at least some major parts of the aircraft need to be shipped from Earth. Supposedly a second dragon airframe was built, but was waiting for turbines and other components to arrive from Earth. IOW, yes, additional armour weight forcing extra shipping costs is plausible. Pandorapedia itself provides evidence that a heavier aircraft would mean more shipping costs there.