Battletech Clan Invasion of UC Gundam Earth

[RhoOmicronMu]

This is pretty doable for a decent sized force of Battletech warships as long as they exploit the advantage their drive systems give them. Clan forces are less likely to do this, but their naval forces aren't complete morons.

Jump a few ships into interstellar space far enough out that there emergence can't be detected and move in closer. Use all available sensors including neutrino detectors to locate as much fixed infrastructure as possible and then jump out. Jump everything except the troop transports far out in interstellar space above and/or below the ecliptic where they won't be expecting you to come from. Accelerate until some velocity at or above .5c has been reached and then launch all dropships and cut engines before entering the system. Save launching the fighters until they get in closer.

That should pretty much take care of all of the space colonies, large factories, and space navy bases in the Earth Sphere.

Recover the fighters and dropships and then jump back in system to kill relative velocity or jump back into interstellar space to make another attack run. Have enough jumpships to cover the cardinal points jump in to damage assessment.

Stage two would be to capture and/or destroy the Jupiter Energy Fleet (if it isn't in the Earth Sphere) and the infrastructure at Jupiter.

While this is going on Warships would approach the Earth Moon System and launch capital missiles at any targets of opportunity from beyond Gundam weapons range (say a light second or more out).

Anyone see any glaring flaws in this plan?

[Batman]

This is a trick question, right? They'll blow past their targets at 150,000 kps meaning their engagement window will be measured in fractions of a second?
Not to mention that to get up to .5 c we are talking about a two month burn at 3 gs. Battletech has displayed the fuel reserves for something like that-were? And that's ignoring the physiological impacts a high g burn that long will have on the crews.
At 1 g, we're talking a half year burn or thereabouts. How about now.

[Batman]

There's no such thing as fixed infrastructure in space.

I'd say there is, after a fashion. Yes, you can pretty much park your spacegoing infrastructure wherever you want. But you WILL very likely park it close to the resources they depend on/the receivers of whatever it is they provide. I.e. orbital farms are going to be close to the planet they're feeding, industries feeding of whatever asteroid belts you have are going to be close to THOSE, etc.

[RhoOmicronMu]

There's no such thing as fixed infrastructure in space.

A space station at a Lagrange point that doesn't have thrusters is "fixed enough."

This is a trick question, right? They'll blow past their targets at 150,000 kps meaning their engagement window will be measured in fractions of a second?

There are rules for carrying out this kind of attack in the current space warfare rulebook.

Not to mention that to get up to .5 c we are talking about a two month burn at 3 gs. Battletech has displayed the fuel reserves for something like that-were?

Everywhere? Damn near every Star League era warship has a cavernous cargo bay that as per the rules can be filled with fuel.

And that's ignoring the physiological impacts a high g burn that long will have on the crews.
At 1 g, we're talking a half year burn or thereabouts. How about now.

What's wrong with taking their time? They can get targeting updates via HPG on the way in. At any rate they would have to accelerate at 1g to take advantage of strategic modes lower fuel consumption.

[PainRack]

What is the half-life of Minovsky particles?

[PainRack]

Kinda. Note the smiley. But I was referring to the whole spotters thing, anyway.

The existence of the Phantom Mech and its Scout/ECM capabilities suggest otherwise. Ditto to the Koshi.
Hell, the S series found in First Strike had mechs outfitted for EW in urban areas, so as to locate hidden forces and follow up with attacks from either said mechs or others.

The batchall ruling for space combat don't usually allow single aerospace fighters to claim warships.

[Stark]

Why is approaching outside the ecliptic supposed to matter?

[Batman]

This is a trick question, right? They'll blow past their targets at 150,000 kps meaning their engagement window will be measured in fractions of a second?

There are rules for carrying out this kind of attack in the current space warfare rulebook.

I'd like a quote for that given that kind of relative velocity is all but UNHEARD OF in the BT universe.

Not to mention that to get up to .5 c we are talking about a two month burn at 3 gs. Battletech has displayed the fuel reserves for something like that-were?

Everywhere? Damn near every Star League era warship has a cavernous cargo bay that as per the rules can be filled with fuel.

Which is why they totally don't use incredibly stupid in the presence of onboard fusion reactors solar sails to recharge their jump drives. Oh wait.
Quote on their ability to maintain several gs worth of acceleration for months.

And that's ignoring the physiological impacts a high g burn that long will have on the crews.
At 1 g, we're talking a half year burn or thereabouts. How about no.

What's wrong with taking their time? They can get targeting updates via HPG on the way in. At any rate they would have to accelerate at 1g to take advantage of strategic modes lower fuel consumption.

Evidence for them having half a year's worth of fuel at one g.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Sure, but you can just move it when you see an attack coming, and put it back later.

Gundam moves their habitats around often throughout the series. Even if it doesn't have thrusters built in, they can just go add them. Since the attack is going to take a while, they'll have plenty of prep time.

I just don't see that as being practical. With updates on any movements via FTL com and the ability to change course even a Gundam warship would be practically stationary at those speeds let alone something as large as a Space Colony. IIRC didn't it take a warship something like 5 days to travel from the Earth to the Moon in Gundam?

Having the attack force come in from both directions at the same time would prevent them from hiding behind the moon or the Earth.

Why is approaching outside the ecliptic supposed to matter?

Societies stuck in one solar system are more likely to concentrate sensors at known threats, which are pretty much all on the ecliptic. It's not guaranteed to do anything, but every little bit helps. That's also why I suggested coasting in the last leg of journey.

[Batman]

What updates via FTL com? The Clans are STILL limited to lightspeed sensors.
Also, even assuming for the moment Clan dropships could ACHIEVE noteworthy fractional c speeds that would work AGAINST them, thanks to their low acceleration. Congratulations! You just spend several months building up speed...in the wrong direction.

[RhoOmicronMu]

I'd like a quote for that given that kind of relative velocity is all but UNHEARD OF in the BT universe.

There is a page from the High Speed Closing Engagement rules available on line. This wouldn't be a typical high speed engagement, but the typical engagements are just examples.

Which is why they totally don't use incredibly stupid in the presence of onboard fusion reactors solar sails to recharge their jump drives. Oh wait.

Charging from the on board fusion reactors is done and is perfectly safe if you take your time. I'm not arguing with you that the solar sails make pretty much no sense, but we're forced to go with what the authors say about the universe and that includes recharging the drive with the fusion reactors taking a frankly absurd amount of fuel as compared to a solar sail.

Quote on their ability to maintain several gs worth of acceleration for months.

They don't need to be able to maintain multiple gs for months and most of them can't. All they have to do is maintain one g of thrust.

Evidence for them having half a year's worth of fuel at one g.

From a quick google, one day of acceleration at 1 g in strategic mode for the largest warships uses 39.52 tons of fuel.

182.5 days * 39.52 tons a burn day = 7212.4 tons of fuel

Vincent Class Corvet: 91,085 tons of cargo
Lola III Class Destroyer: 109,852 tons of cargo
Black Lion Class Battlecruiser: 63,700 tons of cargo
McKenna Class Battleship: 255,382.5 tons of cargo

[RhoOmicronMu]

What updates via FTL com? The Clans are STILL limited to lightspeed sensors.

The warship equipped with a HPG that is sitting pretty Multiple AU away from the Earth scanning for drive flares and neutrino sources.

Also, even assuming for the moment Clan dropships

The dropships don't have to spend fuel to get up to that speed. Their docked with the warships.

could ACHIEVE noteworthy fractional c speeds that would work AGAINST them, thanks to their low acceleration. Congratulations! You just spend several months building up speed...in the wrong direction.

Given the much slower accelerations of anything big in Gundam and timely course corrections I don't think the problem would be as large as you make it out to be.

[Batman]

I'd like a quote for that given that kind of relative velocity is all but UNHEARD OF in the BT universe.

There is a page from the High Speed Closing Engagement rules available on line. This wouldn't be a typical high speed engagement, but the typical engagements are just examples.

I note a complete and utter lack of any numbers. Quote for them dealing with closing speeds of 50 PSL?

quote]Evidence for them having half a year's worth of fuel at one g.

From a quick google, one day of acceleration at 1 g in strategic mode for the largest warships uses 39.52 tons of fuel.[/quote]
While I very much suspect that HAS been retconned since, 39.52 tons is the fuel consumtion of a measly Vincent class corvette as per TR 2750.

182.5 days * 39.52 tons a burn day = 7212.4 tons of fuel
Vincent Class Corvet: 91,085 tons of cargo
Lola III Class Destroyer: 109,852 tons of cargo
Black Lion Class Battlecruiser: 63,700 tons of cargo
McKenna Class Battleship: 255,382.5 tons of cargo

CARGO. NOT fuel.I'm still waiting for an example of ANY BT craft moving that fast.

[Batman]

What updates via FTL com? The Clans are STILL limited to lightspeed sensors.

The warship equipped with a HPG that is sitting pretty Multiple AU away from the Earth scanning for drive flares and neutrino sources.

Which...move at lightspeed. So a single AU already means the information is 8 minutes old.

Also, even assuming for the moment Clan dropships

The dropships don't have to spend fuel to get up to that speed. Their docked with the warships

Conceeded, because it doesn't matter a damn.

could ACHIEVE noteworthy fractional c speeds that would work AGAINST them, thanks to their low acceleration. Congratulations! You just spend several months building up speed...in the wrong direction.

Given the much slower accelerations of anything big in Gundam and timely course corrections I don't think the problem would be as large as you make it out to be.

The acceleration of anything Gundam seems to be under debate (I personally don't know beans about the universe) but anything with BT level engines should be REALLY careful about going up to noticeable fractional c speeds.

[RhoOmicronMu]

I note a complete and utter lack of any numbers. Quote for them dealing with closing speeds of 50 PSL?

There isn't any and IIRC there isn't any for them dealing with the speeds given on the examples on that page. At any rate, I'm not married to the idea of exactly .5c as long as it's decently c fractional it will be OCP for Gundam.

While I very much suspect that HAS been retconned since, 39.52 tons is the fuel consumtion of a measly Vincent class corvette as per TR 2750.

Sarna has the Leviathan using the same burn rate.

The Errata Page for TRO: 3075 seems to indicate that the Samarkand class Carrier, Robinson class Transport, and the Tharkad class Battlecruiser all burn 39.52 tons a day.

CARGO. NOT fuel.I'm still waiting for an example of ANY BT craft moving that fast.

Cargo tonnage can be converted to store fuel.

[Stark]

Whoa are we down to cheesing game stats now? Is there any examples of anyone in BT cheesing sublight and cargo space to do this, or are you just a munchkin?

Regardless, they get blown to shit no matter how they arrive. Oops.

[SAMAS]

Anyone see any glaring flaws in this plan?

Yeah. IIRC, BT Jump drives don't work that way. Pirate points are rather limited in number.

[LaCroix]

Anyone see any glaring flaws in this plan?

Yeah. IIRC, BT Jump drives don't work that way. Pirate points are rather limited in number.

As I foresee you asking to clarify that:

Pirate Point: A point within a solar system where gravitational forces of planets and moons cancel each other, so you get the low gravitational field needed to open a KF-rift. As planets and moons are in continuous motion, these only exist in a certain time-frame and location. Basically, you will need to tow the jumpship to a different space in orbit to jump out, as the time to charge the drive exceeds the possible window of opportunity to do so (except for ships with double jump capability, who could release the dropships and jump out instantly, but damaging them by doing so. (KF wake)).

Mistakes in calculation of such points cause funny effects on reentry, similar to flying through a planet, to quote a certain rugged smuggler. Most result in destruction or serious damage to the drive and vessel.

[RhoOmicronMu]

I've noticed no one has disputed the Clan Warships ability to rain fighter sized missiles down on them with impunity.

Whoa are we down to cheesing game stats now?

I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about Battletech canon policy.

If I was trying to abuse game stats, I'd be suggesting using Dropships as RKKVs. A perfectly valid tactic, just not one the Clans are likely to use.

Is there any examples of anyone in BT cheesing sublight and cargo space to do this, or are you just a munchkin?

The page I linked to, jump ships using their fusion reactors to charge their drives dispite a sad lack of fuel space, and also possibly the asteroid chucking system the Blakists used to take out the Taurian capitol.

If that's not munchkin enough for you how about using a few shuttle craft loaded with planet killing bioweapons. Worlds killed with bioweapons during the recent Jihad include: Galedon, Galax, Buenos Aires, An Ting, and Alarion. The Clans are to strait laced to use any of the fun stuff unfortunately. It still should be within the Clans capabilities considering the Blakists managed to whip a few up and they're more known for their cybernetics.

Regardless, they get blown to shit no matter how they arrive. Oops.

How exactly? Gundam never gets up to a speed much faster than the Apollo Return Capsule. Even a simple one g burn in from the zenith or nadir point should much more than they can handle.

Yeah. IIRC, BT Jump drives don't work that way. Pirate points are rather limited in number.

As I foresee you asking to clarify that:

Pirate Point: A point within a solar system where gravitational forces of planets and moons cancel each other, so you get the low gravitational field needed to open a KF-rift. As planets and moons are in continuous motion, these only exist in a certain time-frame and location. Basically, you will need to tow the jumpship to a different space in orbit to jump out, as the time to charge the drive exceeds the possible window of opportunity to do so (except for ships with double jump capability, who could release the dropships and jump out instantly, but damaging them by doing so. (KF wake)).

Mistakes in calculation of such points cause funny effects on reentry, similar to flying through a planet, to quote a certain rugged smuggler. Most result in destruction or serious damage to the drive and vessel.

You just described a temporary pirate point. The problem seems to be you've forgotten that jumpships have station keeping drives. They're pretty slow, but they don't need to be speed demons to keep up with an L1 point.

You also seem to have missed the implications of what you said. Any point that has sufficiently low gravity can be jumped to. IIRC in this solar system that is any point beyond about Neptune and interstellar space certainly isn't chock full of high mass objects keeping a jumpship from jumping in. So really, I'm failing to see the problem you two have for jumping into interstellar space.

[CSJM]

The quoted Sarna page for Jump Points has 10-point-something AUs as the minimum jump range for the Sol system. Meaning, anything just beyond Saturn is fair game for jumping in. Also, that would be, normally, 10 AUs in the zenith or nadir - IIRC, even the Gundam 'verse tends to keep its space constructions on the eclipctic, so the Clans may not even be detected as they arrive, with their odd (for the defenders) signal signatures and emissions and unconventional placement.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Whoa are we down to cheesing game stats now?
Is there any examples of anyone in BT cheesing sublight and cargo space to do this, or are you just a munchkin?

Also, Mammoth class fuel tankers are regular mammoth class dropships with their cargo space converted to fuel storage. Why do I need to prove that they've done something before, when we know they have the capability? Is your argument that their engines will break down if they ever dare try accelerating longer than it would take to travel from the farthest zenith or nadir jump point to a planet and it happens to just conveniently be that distance?

If that is the case I would say it doesn't matter. Jumping in as far out as the farthest known regular jump point would let them get up to more than enough speed to bum rush One Year era Gundam. This is the best listing for travel times I could find for Gundam.

Compare this chart Lt. Nebfer made to the numbers given in that link.

400,000km (earth to the moon)
.0025G 71 hours
.01G 35.5 hours
.1G 11.22 hours (jumpship)
.5G 5.02 hours (typical BT ASF has 6.66 hours of fuel at this rate)
.75G 4.1 hours
.875G 3.8 hours (in theory a typical BT ASF would have 3.81 hours of fuel at this rate)
1G 3.55 hours (typical BT ASF has 3.33 hours of fuel at this rate)
1.5G 2.9 hours
2G 2.5 hours (typical BT ASF fighter with 2.5t external fuel)
2.5G 2.25 hours
3G 2.05 hours (typical BT ASF fighter with 5t external (or 10t internal) fuel)
3.5G 1.9 hours
4G 1.77 hours
4.5G 1.67 hours

I don't know how accurate the numbers in that link are, but according to it, in Gundam 0083, a Zeon fleet took 20 hours with in flight refueling to cover that distance and a Federation fleet traveled the same distance in 15 hours, but had to burn all of their fuel to do it and ended up trapped in Lunar orbit. They where trying to intercept a runaway colony so they should have been going as fast as they could. Looking at the chart a Battletech Jumpship would get there faster.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Speed only means your engagement time is shortened. So you're going .5c (which is an absurd speed to reach, but I'm not familiar with battletech so meh). The whole Earth Sphere flies by in about five seconds.

What do you intend to do in five seconds?

Long before that they'd start launching capital missiles on pre-programed flight paths and before anyone asks, the only source for bearings only launches and programmed flight paths are the rules.

They'd only be able to fire their weapons once, but the point is to do nuclear level damage and not take any return fire. I'd expect them to lose a few craft to collisions, especially the fighters with relatively short ranged guns. Fortunately for the fighters, any wing mounted guns they have have a pretty large firing arc and can fire off axis. If I did the calcs right, and I probably didn't, at that speed even a lowly fighter mounted AC-20 would be about ~14 kilotons.

Looking at those speeds listed in that link, going as fast as .5c shouldn't be at all necessary to guaranty misses. In fact, if they're that slow, just accelerating all the way in from the jump point should work fine. That would ruin any possibility of suprise though so I'm not for it. Jumping in a few weeks travel at one g past the jump point and then coasting the rest of the way in makes a lot more sense if their trying for surprise.

[Stark]

Cool, so we've established that BT gets raped on the ground, in the air and in space, and only has a hope of victory if we cheese FTL and allow all kinds of concessions to BT.

Neat. BT sucks so bad its hilarious. AC20 DOES 14 KILOTONS! You can't make this shit up.

Remember guys, this is why BT fights all their wars this way.

[RhoOmicronMu]

Cool, so we've established that BT gets raped on the ground,

The Clans don't have the manpower to conquer UC Gundam Earth.

in the air

An Aerospace Fighter is vastly superior to anything comparable I've ever seen in this era of UC Gundam in the air. Fighters > Flying Mobile Suits and UC fighters aren't exactly something to write home about.

and in space

Their ships are larger and have more and longer ranged weapons. Gundam warships would loose a race to the Moon from Earth Orbit to a Jumpship let alone anything that has a maneuvering drive. Clan Warships can fire missiles at large comparatively immobile targets with complete impunity from beyond any Gundam forces ability to respond.

and only has a hope of victory if we cheese FTL and allow all kinds of concessions to BT.

Neat. BT sucks so bad its hilarious. AC20 DOES 14 KILOTONS! You can't make this shit up.

Do you have a problem with 1/2mv^2 now? AC-20s have 5 shots a ton of ammo. How much damage would that do if you accelerated to .5c before firing. Of course it's cheese, I don't like half measures, but as I pointed out none of that is necessary to destroy Gundam forces with pathetic ease. All they have to do is keep accelerating on the way in on a standard approach instead of decelerating and theirs not much if anything UC Gundam forces can do to stop them. Do that as many times as necessary.

Remember guys, this is why BT fights all their wars this way.

Battletech doesn't usually get to club baby seals. They also usually don't even have warships, let alone a situation where one side has fully functional warships and one side has warships with worse than station keeping drives and no delta-v to speak of.

[Stark]

Dude, that's totally why BT wars are fought by diving jumpships using TEH KINETICZZZ to win wars.

Oh wait, they aren't. They're about stupid robots that suck duking it out in ponds.

I'm just glad you can accept that BT mechs are complete garbage and doomed; your statements regarding aerospace fighters are extremely dubious, however. But oh well, we'll just invent some munchkin tactics that probably won't work and claim victory. I'm just glad that BT mechs such so bad, since that's all anyone really cares about.