Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Alyrium Denryle]

Metaphysics? I'm sorry, I didn't know that you were basing your knowledge of the two universes on bullshit.

I am sorry, I didnt know that you didnt know what the word meant. Perhaps you ought actually read a book written by your betters. For a good baseline:

Metaphysics:

the branch of philosophy that treats of first principles, includes ontology and cosmology, and is intimately connected with epistemology.

Metaphysics is the branch which deals with the way the universe fundamentally works. The way the Star Wars and Marvel universe works (the first principles upon which they and the paranormal phenomenon function by extension) are completely different by definition. You cannot equivocate them.

The Marvel Universe takes place on Earth 616.
Our Earth, Earth 0000, is the keystone Earth from which Earth 616 comes, via the company Marvel Comics.
Marvel characters have crossed over to Earth 0000 twice and their powers worked here as they worked in 616.

Since that is a canon fact in the Marvel Universe, then Marvel Comics publishing the Star Wars comics run also created a universe that can interact with the 616 universe, or any other universe in the Multiverse. (If you don't like that, then the opening of every movie which states that the Star Wars story takes place in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, establishes that it is in our, Universe 0000, and already exists.)

This does not follow. Marvel publishes a lot of comics, and it does not follow that all of them are in a unified multiverse. Particularly when they are publishing comics under license from another franchise.

In fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ma ... dimensions

Star Wars is not on their list.

The rest follows from this premise, and because this premise is blatantly false, the rest is bullshit.

Therefore, unless the forces of the universe are compatible (IE. Magnetism + Genetics) any abilities do not necessarily cross over between universes.

An actual good point. I was speaking about Magneto in general, and 616 more specifically, not the First Class Magneto.

And someone still does not know how to read the OP

[Havok]

The Marvel Universe takes place on Earth 616.
Our Earth, Earth 0000, is the keystone Earth from which Earth 616 comes, via the company Marvel Comics.
Marvel characters have crossed over to Earth 0000 twice and their powers worked here as they worked in 616.

Since that is a canon fact in the Marvel Universe, then Marvel Comics publishing the Star Wars comics run also created a universe that can interact with the 616 universe, or any other universe in the Multiverse. (If you don't like that, then the opening of every movie which states that the Star Wars story takes place in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, establishes that it is in our, Universe 0000, and already exists.)

This does not follow. Marvel publishes a lot of comics, and it does not follow that all of them are in a unified multiverse. Particularly when they are publishing comics under license from another franchise.

In fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ma ... dimensions

Star Wars is not on their list.

The rest follows from this premise, and because this premise is blatantly false, the rest is bullshit.

Sorry dumbass, but try reading the entire article and not just clicking on the first link.

Dimensions are not the same as Alternate universes that make up the Multiverse, as Marvel defines it. Dimensions are adjuncts to a universe itself and each universe has it's own list of dimensions. IE. Hades, Asgard are dimensions that have their own versions in each universe.

You would think my "betters" could read a wikipedia article or figure out how comic books that he is arguing about work.

Any way the relevant info...

Earth-0000/Earth Prime

Seen in Fantastic Four #511 (2004)

-This is the designation given by A.R.M.O.R. to our world, the real, non-fictional keystone world in which Marvel Comics is a comic book company that publishes books featuring the stories and characters referenced in this article. Earth-0000 (also called Earth Prime) is the true, keystone Earth from which all the other Earths within the multiverse originate.
-The real Earth has been briefly 'visited' on at least two occasions by both Marvel and DC characters: once, when the Fantastic Four paid a visit to "God" (in this case Jack Kirby) to plead for the life of Ben Grimm,[9] and once by Howard The Duck and Machine Man while tracking down the Zombie Virus across parallel Earths.[10] Also, in the '90s Spider-Man: The Animated Series' very last episode, Spider-Man is taken here by Madame Web to meet Stan Lee (voiced by himself), and Spidey takes him webswinging.

In that issue, Jack Kirby, working for Marvel Comics is shown as the creator of The Marvel Universe/Multiverse, as well as his 'collaborator'. Again, as Star Wars the comic, with the same creations, ideas, technologies, etc., as Star Wars the movie has, has been created by Marvel Comics of Earth 0000, it exists in the Marvel Multiverse and is therefor compatible with all the other universes that make up the Multiverse. Again unless specifically dictated.

An actual good point. I was speaking about Magneto in general, and 616 more specifically, not the First Class Magneto.

And someone still does not know how to read the OP

Oh I read it. In this particular instance though I was speaking of the generic Magneto, as I already pointed out that I made my initial post in jest, and carried on from there. Too hard for you to figure out?

As you bring up the OP though... according to you, Magneto would be powerless and lose in this scenario, as he is transported into Palpatine's universe and his powers, because of bullshit metaphysics, wouldn't even work.

[Havok]

The way the Star Wars and Marvel universe works (the first principles upon which they and the paranormal phenomenon function by extension) are completely different by definition. You cannot equivocate them.

P.S. Provide proof of this, which you claim as fact, or concede.

[Imperial528]

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

Now, I don't mean to nitpick a post from 3 days ago, but I just found my RotS novel again, so I can set something straight here.

In the novel, it is stated the the face of Sidious is the mask, his real face being that of Palpatine, and the damage from the lightening (somehow) warped his face to actually become that of Sidious. By the time of RotJ, his face must have sufficiently healed from the injuries to merely look old and worn.

I believe this is the quote:

"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

[Alyrium Denryle]

The way the Star Wars and Marvel universe works (the first principles upon which they and the paranormal phenomenon function by extension) are completely different by definition. You cannot equivocate them.

P.S. Provide proof of this, which you claim as fact, or concede.

No. You are the one claiming that the rules of two fucking universes are the same, and relying upon who published the fucking comics to do so. I suppose everything in Del Rey books belongs in the same multiverse then? No. And I also suppose that the Dragonsgate and Dragonlance Novels are the same. No, again. The different dimensions in marvel are part of a motherfucking multiverse. You need to prove that Star Wars is part of that multiverse so that Marvel canon applies. Have there ever been interactions between these specific franchises? You are the one making a positive claim, I am claiming the negative. Burden is yours.

As you bring up the OP though... according to you, Magneto would be powerless and lose in this scenario, as he is transported into Palpatine's universe and his powers, because of bullshit metaphysics, wouldn't even work.

No, because while Palpatine's powers rely on mysticism+a symbiont (the force even has a will for fuck's sake, and can perform immaculate conception. Magneto's abilities dont. They are not the same even IF they are in the same multiverse), Magneto's powers rely on his genetic makeup, and the Electromagnetic force, which presumably works in the star wars universe. Personally, I dont give a shit whether Palpatine's powers work in full on magneto. I care about you equivocating the rules of two different entire franchises. You can assume that both power sets work fully for the sake of an argument, but calling Magneto a jedi is a load of shit.

[Havok]

So one presumably works in one universe and one presumably doesn't? OK. You keep on presuming there champ.

Besides it doesn't matter, as this takes place in Palpatine's throne room, which last I checked was in the Star Wars Universe anyway.

And again, you are the one that states that the Force is mysticism, which you have yet to prove. Especially as Yoda and Obi-Wan, two experts on the subject, refer to it as energy and an energy field.

Yoda: "Its energy surrounds us and binds us."
Obi-Wan: "It's an energy field created by all living things."

It is also clearly not 'mysticism' as it has very real world effect in the Star Wars Universe.

Interestingly enough, electromagnetism is referred to as a force. Go figure.

I do need to hit on this though...

P.S. Provide proof of this, which you claim as fact, or concede.

No. You are the one claiming that the rules of two fucking universes are the same, and relying upon who published the fucking comics to do so. I suppose everything in Del Rey books belongs in the same multiverse then? No. And I also suppose that the Dragonsgate and Dragonlance Novels are the same. No, again. The different dimensions in marvel are part of a motherfucking multiverse. You need to prove that Star Wars is part of that multiverse so that Marvel canon applies. Have there ever been interactions between these specific franchises? You are the one making a positive claim, I am claiming the negative. Burden is yours.

Actually, no. The Del Rey books, as well as Dragonlance, would belong to the Marvel Omniverse, but I don't want to hurt your little brain. And yes, different dimensions are part of the motherfucking Multiverse. I said that. Alternate universes, as I pointed out, are not the same as different dimensions. Is this too hard for you? I mean, I know it isn't masturbating lizards, but it isn't that much more complicated.

Sorry you don't like the canon explanation for the existence of the Marvel Universe and it's alternate universes and how it continues to grow. Facts are facts. Go argue with Marvel Comics.

But, lets see, you have cosmic power, the ability to swap out your organic atoms for metal atoms in an instant from a pocket dimension that you always have access to, the ability to absorb solar radiation and turn it into optic blasts from your eyeballs etc., etc., oh and actual mysticism, but, nope, no Force. That would be incompatible because... oh that's right, you say so.

I mean, you are on a site created to cover the Vs debate of Star Wars Vs. Star Trek. Has anyone ever claimed that "THE FORCE ISN'T ALLOWED BECAUSE IT IS MYSTICISM!!" "IT ISN'T PROPER METAPHYSICS TO FIGHT A PHASER!!! Oh right, only little shit stain Trekies that know they can't win the arguments.

[Havok]

but calling Magneto a jedi is a load of shit.

Of course it's a load of shit you fucking idiot. It was said in about the most sarcastic way I could say it. I ran with it because you are a humorless pompus ass that took it seriously and are just an all around douche.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And again, you are the one that states that the Force is mysticism, which you have yet to prove. Especially as Yoda and Obi-Wan, two experts on the subject, refer to it as energy and an energy field.

And some eastern philosophies refer to Chi as an energy field, what is your point?

Interestingly enough, electromagnetism is referred to as a force. Go figure.

A force, not The Force. Or do the differences between definite and indefinite articles escape you?

The Del Rey books, as well as Dragonlance, would belong to the Marvel Omniverse, but I don't want to hurt your little brain.

No, that does not damage my brain. That damages common sense. Yes, let us apply the canon in one franchise to an entire series of other franchises. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

And yes, different dimensions are part of the motherfucking Multiverse. I said that. Alternate universes, as I pointed out, are not the same as different dimensions. Is this too hard for you? I mean, I know it isn't masturbating lizards, but it isn't that much more complicated.

Hear that sound? It is the sound of the point sailing over your head. The fact that one franchise contains a multiverse/set of dimensions/whatever does not entail that other franchises are included.

But, lets see, you have cosmic power, the ability to swap out your organic atoms for metal atoms in an instant from a pocket dimension that you always have access to, the ability to absorb solar radiation and turn it into optic blasts from your eyeballs etc., etc., oh and actual mysticism, but, nope, no Force. That would be incompatible because... oh that's right, you say so.

In this case, it is not because I say so. It depends on how the universe in question works. If your powers operate by manipulating an energy field, and in one... reality/franchise/whatever that energy field does not exist, then your powers will not work. If it relies on interaction with something which is a property of beings within that universe, and someone comes in who does not have that property, your power will not work on them. This is really fucking simple deductive logic. I can put it in the form of syllogisms or a truth table if you would like.

Magneto's powers will work because A) He still has the genes permitting him to manipulate the electromagnetic force and B) The electromagnetic force exists within the star wars universe.

Palpatine, well it depends. Force abilities which rely on the presence of midichlorians for their effect, wont work on magneto. So, manipulating him through say, mind trick, wont work if that ability relies on the target having midichlorians. Telekinesis probably would because it can affect non-living objects.

To use an unrelated example: If I am a wizard who can cast a spell which hedges out magic, at the very least if I get to a universe where magic operates on different rules, at the very least, that spell which relies on the rules from my home universe's magic system for its functionality, will not work. If my magic works at all, I will have to re-craft the spell based upon the new universe's magic rules.

I mean, you are on a site created to cover the Vs debate of Star Wars Vs. Star Trek. Has anyone ever claimed that "THE FORCE ISN'T ALLOWED BECAUSE IT IS MYSTICISM!!" "IT ISN'T PROPER METAPHYSICS TO FIGHT A PHASER!!! Oh right, only little shit stain Trekies that know they can't win the arguments.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't get it. Force Lightning is supposedly pure electrical with no woo-woo mystic bullshit, but the Force itself is all woo-woo mystic bullshit with no electrocities in it? What.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I don't get it. Force Lightning is supposedly pure electrical with no woo-woo mystic bullshit, but the Force itself is all woo-woo mystic bullshit with no electrocities in it? What.

You do not appear to actually read into an argument to understand its implications. The electrical component of force lightning will be fully effective. It wont work on magneto however... because he is fucking MAGNETO. Yes, of course! Lightning is going to work on the guy who bends the electromagnetic force over a table and fucks it.

Also keep in mind: I am willing to assume that all of Palpatine's abilities will work, except for obvious things like spewing forth electricity. That however is a conceit of having an argument, not the merging of the franchises into one.

[Havok]

I'll be sure to let the writers at Marvel know that the next time they have Storm electrocute Magneto.

Palpatine, well it depends. Force abilities which rely on the presence of midichlorians for their effect, wont work on magneto. So, manipulating him through say, mind trick, wont work if that ability relies on the target having midichlorians. Telekinesis probably would because it can affect non-living objects.

And seriously... that is your argument for the Force not working on Magneto? Midichlorians? A subject that has no definitive answer in it's own canon? A canon that has crystalline lifeforms with no blood, let alone organic cells to speak of that are Force sensitive? I thought you may have had the semblance of an actual argument in all your bullshit, but I guess not.

And since when would a Jedi mind trick work on a mind such as Magneto's anyway? Midichlorians present or not. Why would Palpatine even attempt it?

So I guess the Force isn't going to work on droids or spaceships or walls because they have no midichlorians? Oops.

Man, at least you can admit that everything Palpatine can do, except mind tricks, which wouldn't work on anyone with a strong will, will effect Magneto.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And seriously... that is your argument for the Force not working on Magneto? Midichlorians? A subject that has no definitive answer in it's own canon? A canon that has crystalline lifeforms with no blood, let alone organic cells to speak of that are Force sensitive? I thought you may have had the semblance of an actual argument in all your bullshit, but I guess not.

The fact that midichlorians are required for force sensitivity is canon fact, in fact, canon via the highest source. It MAY be that midichlorians do not require necessarily organic cells, only that the thing in question be alive.

And since when would a Jedi mind trick work on a mind such as Magneto's anyway? Midichlorians present or not. Why would Palpatine even attempt it?

You do not appear to grasp the concept of argument by example. I picked a random force power which has no component which we could consider a direct application of force upon an object (like telekineses)

Man, at least you can admit that everything Palpatine can do, except mind tricks, which wouldn't work on anyone with a strong will, will effect Magneto.

Of course. It has never been my position otherwise, save as a tit-for-tat logical exchange with Norade regarding whether or not the basic laws of physics and chemistry required for anything resembling suspension of disbelief apply equally in both universes. I.E. If his logic is true, so is the logic requiring palpatines powers having no effect, because they are equivalent. I dont think either is true, and even if I actually did, the very thread is inherently predicated on the two being able to bring their respective powers to bear. Denying them either would be... well... stupid and make the thread pointless.

What I take issue with is assuming their their respective powers function on the same first principles.

[TheHammer]

Wow a seven page thread.


I've got one question: Does movie Magneto have any way to prevent Palpatine from force crushing his windpipe?

No?

Then Palpatine takes it - end of story. Magneto never even gets a chance to use his powers.

[Simon_Jester]

Does Palpatine have any assurance that Magneto won't, while being choked, pick up a hunk of metal and bash his brains out from behind?

It's just not that simple.

[TheHammer]

Does Palpatine have any assurance that Magneto won't, while being choked, pick up a hunk of metal and bash his brains out from behind?

It's just not that simple.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about some slow force choke where the air supply is gradually cut off, and thus giving Magneto the possibility of retaliating. I'm talking about simply and instantly crushing his throat. Something that should be well within his power.

[Sarevok]

Palpatine could simply crush Magneto like a cardboard box. His TK produces several tons of force.

[AMT]

Palpatine could simply crush Magneto like a cardboard box. His TK produces several tons of force.

Which of course is shown in the movies. Or spoken of in the movies. Wait no. No it's not. So he can't for the purposes of this.

[Simon_Jester]

Does Palpatine have any assurance that Magneto won't, while being choked, pick up a hunk of metal and bash his brains out from behind?

It's just not that simple.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about some slow force choke where the air supply is gradually cut off, and thus giving Magneto the possibility of retaliating. I'm talking about simply and instantly crushing his throat. Something that should be well within his power.

Since this is about movie Palpatine, "pics or it didn't happen."

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Palpatine could simply crush Magneto like a cardboard box. His TK produces several tons of force.

Which of course is shown in the movies. Or spoken of in the movies. Wait no. No it's not. So he can't for the purposes of this.

What...

Yoda could lift an X-wing, which is worth a few tonnes at the least. Palpatine should be more than capable of replicating that feat, considering he lifted up all those pews in the Senate with relative ease.

[Havok]

Yeah, Palpatine was hucking multi ton senate pods around like boxes of corn flakes. And does "movie Palpatine" take into consideration other Force feats we have seen in Clone Wars and The Clone Wars? They take place before ROTJ and Palpatine would have only become more masterful over his abilities and I would think it is safe and reasonable to assume that anything we see Jedi or other Sith do, Palpatine would also be able to do.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think I'll expand my original definition to include "Anything we see Palpatine do in the movies, or the animated series." In other words, the stuff we see on screen.

[Connor MacLeod]

The thing about Palpy's stuff is not just whether or not he can heft huge masses and hurl them, but whether he can hurl them fast enough or hard enough to overpower Magneto (or use something he can't stop or dodge) as well as how long it takes them to do it. There are indeed some hefty instances of TK both directly and directly attributable to Palpy, but they're not exactly... *rapid* (at least not instantaneous) How fast magneto can move/react matters as much as Palpy's ability to do so.

Magneto and lightning.. is his power really just electromagnetism? Or is that only one part of it? That doesn't neccesarily make him 100% iimmune to electricity though - it depends on how his powers work. For example, do they use his body as a conduit or does it directly touch him? That might matter. Or his powers might work similar to "force fields" - they can provide him alot of protection but they won't stop anything that manages to bypass the defense (overwhelming it, finding a gap, an attack he wasn't defending against or expecting, etc.)

It's also quite possible his powers aren't literally magnetic in nature, but simply is a form of TK that strongly emulates various magnetic forces due to self-belief (EG Magneto BELIEVES it works that way so it does.. it may make it limited in certain ways, but more powerful.)

[Sarevok]

The thing about TK is that it does not matter how many tons the Emperor could lift with his mind.

Yoda knocked two armoured guardsmen unconscious with concussion with a slight wave of his hands.

Magneto is just a fleshy meatbag. Palpatine does not need to choke the guy, throw stuff at him or get into a dramatic movie fight. He simple targets Magneto himself with his telekinesis and tears him apart like tissue paper. Dooku was able to rip rocks and metal apart in the movies. Imagine that level of telekinetic force exerted on the human body.

[Shroom Man 777]

The greatest feats of TK we've seen on humans is choking, or Yoda thudding some guards, on screen. As Connor said, these feats aren't exactly superfast, and Jedi/Sith can be stopped from doing these things with the appropriate measures.

Palpatine hurling senate pods or X-wings or senate-wings or X-pods or whatever pales in comparison to Magnetoid lifting up the Golden Gate Bridge, which is a spherical mass of iron considerably longer than other spherical masses of iron. It's a spherical mass of iron 1 kilometer long! Try vaporizing that packing crate with your NDF chain reactions!

Consider that Magneto's own metal-TK is so fine and accurate that, without makin Jedi/Sith gestures, he can fire a gun and make the bullet stop right against the person's head, while the bullet is rotating and grazing skin and threatening to punch through his skull. Magnetoid is able to react and control objects moving at supersonic speeds, while simultaneously holding multiple guns in the air. His concentration and multi-tasking ability is already above that of most Force users on-screen (Though I don't know about the EU, there could be a comic about how some ancient Sith in the 1960s used his TK to hurl a bomber from a dirt runway at triple sonic speeds while drafting up military graphs and intercepting ballistic missiles and breaking helicopter glass canopies while doing so and Force Choking McNamara or something. I will call him Darth Sladius.).



Anyway here's another compilation of Magnetoids' feats, please ignore the terrible music that comes with it.



Jedi/Sith TK feats involving much constipation and gesticulations pale in comparison. At least, those in the movies. The Darth Sladiuses of the EU might trump this, who knows.

Who cares.

[Sarevok]

What Magneto can do is irrelevant here. Whoever shoots first wins. And Sidious with precog powers will strike first and crush Magneto himself directly. No need to bother with melodramatic throw stuff at each other telekinetic battles.