Antigravity nation vs teleportation nation (RAR)

[Sky Captain]

The most powerful prop engine ever devised was the NK-12M which had 11 MW of power. Four of those were enough to drive a 185 ton Tu-95 at 650 kmph.

You are talking about using ONE EIGHT of that power to drive a ship weighing TWO HUNDRED TIMES MORE? You're not going to save much on drag, because a 50 000 ton freighter would be nowhere near as aerodynamic.

There is no reason why such ships couldn't be built as aerodynamic as zeppelins with aerodynamic fairings over cargo holds to reduce drag.

Yeah, too bad that the "aircraft carriers in the sky" would still require huge amounts of thrust. You want your 50k ton ship to be able to reach 30 knots in, say, ten minutes?

That's 0.025 m/s^2, so total thrust required is 1.25 MN. A rocket engine with such power (you'd need a rocket to go so slow at 22 km) consumes about 350kg of fuel per second or so, so accelerating over 10 minutes will eat up 210 tonnes of fuel.

No need for a rocket. Largest helicopter ever built had similar thrust from two 35 m rotors consuming 16.2 MW. Granted, at high altitude thrust would be much less, however you could do the horizontal acceleration at most favorable altitude.

BTW, I checked the Hindenburg's specifications: it weighed 212 tonnes and used 3.57 MW of power (diesel engines, too), so the idea that a ship weighing 50 000 tonnes could fly using 5 MW is totally absurd. Well, it COULD but it'd need propellers of truly absurd size...

Two relatively slow spinning ~35 m propellers should be enough to give it ~1 MN of thrust at ~16 MW power. For a comercial bulk freighter that cruise at ~200 km/h large slow spinning propellers would be the most efficient form of propulsion. Acceleration would be crap. It may take an hour or so to reach cruise speed fully loaded, but so what? For a commercial long range freighter it wouldn't matter much.
For a flying warship that has to have better manuverabilty than floating brick much more power would be needed, but it is not unreasonable to have multiple turboprop or propfan engines with total power of 500 or more MW and total thrust of over 10 MN on a Hindenburg sized airframe. It would need so much fuel guzzling power only when rapid maneuvering is needed so a highly fuel efficient low speed (200 - 300 km/h) cruise still would be possible.

I think a very mobile force, with a bunch of extremely heavy floating tanks, would be able to conquer the teleporter nation given some thought. Because the main problem the teleporting nation has, is that it's not as mobile as the enemy. My main idea relies on the trick, that once your anti-grav engine is on, you basically negated the weight of your vehicle

Such tank also should be able to operate in a partial anti grav mode when grav drive cancels part of the weight so lets say a 300 ton tank has same ground pressure as 30 ton tank. It could basically operate in two modes. Driving around like a regular tank and flying to cross obstacles. It would be very hard to defend against when asault could come from any direction completely disregarding such things as minefieleds, anti tank barriers, rivers, forests, mountains that put limits on a conventional forces.

[khursed]

I think a very mobile force, with a bunch of extremely heavy floating tanks, would be able to conquer the teleporter nation given some thought. Because the main problem the teleporting nation has, is that it's not as mobile as the enemy. My main idea relies on the trick, that once your anti-grav engine is on, you basically negated the weight of your vehicle

Such tank also should be able to operate in a partial anti grav mode when grav drive cancels part of the weight so lets say a 300 ton tank has same ground pressure as 30 ton tank. It could basically operate in two modes. Driving around like a regular tank and flying to cross obstacles. It would be very hard to defend against when asault could come from any direction completely disregarding such things as minefieleds, anti tank barriers, rivers, forests, mountains that put limits on a conventional forces.

Exactly, also, it would make the problem of supplies that much easier to deal with, if you can basically have cargo sized trucks filled with all the supplies you need that follows your force at an acceptable distance.

I really believe that for the cost of a single 22km altitude battleship, you could build a couple thousand of the most amazing tanks ever, and finish the conquest before your first ship has finished razing it's first city.

You can also stage your attack from the most inhospitable side of the enemy's territory, which would also make it extremely hard to defend against.

It's like basically having a fighting force that can go over any surface, which in itself is a huge advantage. Your main city is covered by impassable swamps on 2/3 of it sides? Not a problem! Your fortress is in the middle of a mountain range? not a problem!

Just look at history, the main reason fortification became obsolete was the invention of gun powder, combined with the coup de grace of extremely mobile forces.

Can you imagine how insane you could make your mobile artillery alone?

I can picture a Iowa's turrets floating with it's huge 406mm guns, then settling down, and pounding into submission any enemy fortification, and once done, moving along to the next one.

[Tamwyn_Lysovan]

ok...somehow we have forgotten that even if you can move the damned heavy guns and their supplies, it takes time. teleporter nation would not have this problem, and thus would ensure victory in a timely mannor. Going back to page 1 of this debate, wars are won by economies, not payloads. In other words, its a game of numbers, not size. I believe it was Authur C. Clark that told the tale of a world on which lived two nations. one was small, and extriemly technologically advanced. This nation had powerful weaponry that was eons ahead of those of thier foe. Unfortunately the weaponry was extriemly expensive and slow to produce, meaning it was in short supply. On the other hand, their enemy used much simpler weaponry, allowing them to produce their weapons faster and for a fraction of a cost. At the end of the story, the technologically advanced nation is decimated by the less advanced nation in a simple war of attrition. Simply put, the hoards of cheaply equiped soldiers over-ran the small force of high-tech soldiers. This is the why the bronze age was ended by the iron age; why the Union armies defeated their confederate counterparts, the french revolution was successfull, and why soviet russia regained stalingrad from Nazi hands.

Some of you may be wondering how this story applies to the current debate.

Here is your answer.

the teleporter nation has the ability to manufacture their weapons at a much faster rate, since they dont need to spend time transporting the raw materials to the location of the refineries, and then transport the refined materials to the factories to be made into parts, and then the parts to the assembly lines/locations to be assembled, and then the finished products to the distribution centers, and then from the distribution centers to the supply centers, and then from there to where they are actually needed. This effectivly cuts the time it takes weapons and supplies to reach where they are actually needed by about 90% (and thats being generous to the anti-gravity side). whats more, it cuts the cost of doing this by at least half, since they no longer need to pay for transportation of said weapons and supplies, (drivers, fuel, manufacture and maintainence of transportation vehicles, manufacture and up-keep of transportation lines, etc.). whats more, they wouldnt have to spend money on protecting the hundreds of thousands of miles of supply lines that would be used to transport everything conventionally. In effect, this frees up time and money that can be used to produce yet more weapons.

that established, let us turn to the Anti-gravity side. Their production methods are conventional, meaning they are much slower, much more costly, and far more inefficient. Assuming the best strategy for the anti-gravity nation is to build giant war machines, filled to the brim with devestating weaponry, troops, and the supplies necessary to keep them going; the time it would take to assemble such forces would be substantial (i cannot give an exact time frame, because i dont know the production methods in detail or the designs of the behemoths in question, which would cause substantial variation in production times). the vast majority of the production time and money would be wasted in transporting materials and manpower from one stage in the operation to the next between the different staging locations and protecting the entire opperation in the proccess. the propper term for this is logistics. This problem is then compounded by the fact that even once the behemoths are assembled and combat ready, they are aggonizingly slow and about as meuneverable as a brick.

for simplicities sake, lets assume the two nations begin building their forces at the same time, and deploy their forces at the same time. in the time it would take for the anti-gravity nation to build a small force of their massive and inpenetrabel juggernauts, the teleporter nation could build an equally destructive (if more vunerable) force that was several times larger.

and when these forces are deployed, the teleporter nation would simply need to land a single covert team with cheap combustion generator, in an unpopulated area (such as a large forrest). once this was established, (a fairly easy task in comparison to that of the anti-gravity nation) they would only need to activate a single teleporter end to unleash an entire invasion army. the time frame on such an opperation, rough estimation of 1-2 days.

the anti-gravity nation's forces would have to travel hundreds of thousands of miles at a relatively slow rate, needing protection along the entire route, which would use manpower and supplies to maintain (both of which are in relatively short supply in comparison to thier foes) further more, they would need to establish and protect supply lines as they went, using more men and supplies. these tactics, in combination with the already slow travel speed, would bring the time it would take for this force to arrive at the teleporter nations shores to a rough estimate of at least 3-5 days (accounting for delays due to weather and atmospheric contitions).

by the time the anti-gravity nations forces arrived at the shores of their foes, thier own nation would be under a full scale invasion by a vastly larger force and they would either be recalled to assist in defence, or would loose their supply lines and most of their escort force. the wiser choice here would to leave them in enemy territory and unleash them to wreak havok to the enemy homeland. in the end however, it would end with the behemoths running out of supplies, and the teleporters conquering the anti-gravity nation. the sheer numbers of the teleporter nation's troops would overwhelm the anti-gravity nation's defenders, and leave the behemoths with no where to resupply, eventually starving them out, via fuel, food, or munitions. this dosent stop the behemoths from completly oblerating large portions of the teleporter nation's landmass, but it also dosent change the out come.

and before you even consider that they could be recalled to aid in defence, obliterating large portions of their own land, and giving the enemy even more time to assemble, train, and deploy their forces through their gate point without interferance is just plain idiotic. and it dosent stop the teleporter nation from doing it again.

in the end, it boils down to basic rts game tatics. a constant stream of fast traveling, cheap units that deal relatevly small amounts of damage will always defeat a foe that attempts to build massive forces of slow moving, expensive heavy hitters.

if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it.

Tamwyn_Lysovan

[khursed]

ok...somehow we have forgotten that even if you can move the damned heavy guns and their supplies, it takes time. teleporter nation would not have this problem, and thus would ensure victory in a timely mannor. Going back to page 1 of this debate, wars are won by economies, not payloads. In other words, its a game of numbers, not size. I believe it was Authur C. Clark that told the tale of a world on which lived two nations. one was small, and extriemly technologically advanced. This nation had powerful weaponry that was eons ahead of those of thier foe. Unfortunately the weaponry was extriemly expensive and slow to produce, meaning it was in short supply. On the other hand, their enemy used much simpler weaponry, allowing them to produce their weapons faster and for a fraction of a cost. At the end of the story, the technologically advanced nation is decimated by the less advanced nation in a simple war of attrition. Simply put, the hoards of cheaply equiped soldiers over-ran the small force of high-tech soldiers. This is the why the bronze age was ended by the iron age; why the Union armies defeated their confederate counterparts, the french revolution was successfull, and why soviet russia regained stalingrad from Nazi hands.

Some of you may be wondering how this story applies to the current debate.

Here is your answer.

the teleporter nation has the ability to manufacture their weapons at a much faster rate, since they dont need to spend time transporting the raw materials to the location of the refineries, and then transport the refined materials to the factories to be made into parts, and then the parts to the assembly lines/locations to be assembled, and then the finished products to the distribution centers, and then from the distribution centers to the supply centers, and then from there to where they are actually needed. This effectivly cuts the time it takes weapons and supplies to reach where they are actually needed by about 90% (and thats being generous to the anti-gravity side). whats more, it cuts the cost of doing this by at least half, since they no longer need to pay for transportation of said weapons and supplies, (drivers, fuel, manufacture and maintainence of transportation vehicles, manufacture and up-keep of transportation lines, etc.). whats more, they wouldnt have to spend money on protecting the hundreds of thousands of miles of supply lines that would be used to transport everything conventionally. In effect, this frees up time and money that can be used to produce yet more weapons.

that established, let us turn to the Anti-gravity side. Their production methods are conventional, meaning they are much slower, much more costly, and far more inefficient. Assuming the best strategy for the anti-gravity nation is to build giant war machines, filled to the brim with devestating weaponry, troops, and the supplies necessary to keep them going; the time it would take to assemble such forces would be substantial (i cannot give an exact time frame, because i dont know the production methods in detail or the designs of the behemoths in question, which would cause substantial variation in production times). the vast majority of the production time and money would be wasted in transporting materials and manpower from one stage in the operation to the next between the different staging locations and protecting the entire opperation in the proccess. the propper term for this is logistics. This problem is then compounded by the fact that even once the behemoths are assembled and combat ready, they are aggonizingly slow and about as meuneverable as a brick.

for simplicities sake, lets assume the two nations begin building their forces at the same time, and deploy their forces at the same time. in the time it would take for the anti-gravity nation to build a small force of their massive and inpenetrabel juggernauts, the teleporter nation could build an equally destructive (if more vunerable) force that was several times larger.

and when these forces are deployed, the teleporter nation would simply need to land a single covert team with cheap combustion generator, in an unpopulated area (such as a large forrest). once this was established, (a fairly easy task in comparison to that of the anti-gravity nation) they would only need to activate a single teleporter end to unleash an entire invasion army. the time frame on such an opperation, rough estimation of 1-2 days.

the anti-gravity nation's forces would have to travel hundreds of thousands of miles at a relatively slow rate, needing protection along the entire route, which would use manpower and supplies to maintain (both of which are in relatively short supply in comparison to thier foes) further more, they would need to establish and protect supply lines as they went, using more men and supplies. these tactics, in combination with the already slow travel speed, would bring the time it would take for this force to arrive at the teleporter nations shores to a rough estimate of at least 3-5 days (accounting for delays due to weather and atmospheric contitions).

by the time the anti-gravity nations forces arrived at the shores of their foes, thier own nation would be under a full scale invasion by a vastly larger force and they would either be recalled to assist in defence, or would loose their supply lines and most of their escort force. the wiser choice here would to leave them in enemy territory and unleash them to wreak havok to the enemy homeland. in the end however, it would end with the behemoths running out of supplies, and the teleporters conquering the anti-gravity nation. the sheer numbers of the teleporter nation's troops would overwhelm the anti-gravity nation's defenders, and leave the behemoths with no where to resupply, eventually starving them out, via fuel, food, or munitions. this dosent stop the behemoths from completly oblerating large portions of the teleporter nation's landmass, but it also dosent change the out come.

and before you even consider that they could be recalled to aid in defence, obliterating large portions of their own land, and giving the enemy even more time to assemble, train, and deploy their forces through their gate point without interferance is just plain idiotic. and it dosent stop the teleporter nation from doing it again.

in the end, it boils down to basic rts game tatics. a constant stream of fast traveling, cheap units that deal relatevly small amounts of damage will always defeat a foe that attempts to build massive forces of slow moving, expensive heavy hitters.

if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it.

Tamwyn_Lysovan

So, you think that teleporting everything everywhere, without the use of any transport whatsoever, will be more efficient and faster then the anti-grav nation?

Ok, so how do you build and move around teleporters that are 10 times heavier then the load then can teleport?

It becomes a "chicken or egg" paradox, because lets be honest here, how do you install all those teleporters everywhere if you don't possess the infrastructures and capacity to build a lot of industrial material?

You've jumped one important step, which is the application of new technology which can be very slow and hard to accomplish.

Also, assuming you sent a teleporting booth on the enemy's side, and started pumping soldiers madly out of it, what if a single well placed RPG takes it out? Now you have anywhere from 10 to thousand of soldiers with zero back up, no stockpile, and completely cut off from any escape.

I've said it before, we lack too much data to make any conclusive statement, you assume way too much.

How do you propose to send those teleporters to the enemy exactly if your whole nation has foresworn the good old method of transporting stuff the classical way?

Also, raw materials will not teleport themselves by magic, you will still need massive amount of classical machinery, such as earth movers, dredge, bulldozers, etc...

Also, why would the teleporter nation have such a huge numbers of troops compared to the anti-grav nation? To teleport a man, you'd need a roughly two ton teleporter, assuming you want to teleport man in the 250-400lbs range with gear and weapons. You can teleport once every 5 second, so 12 men a minute, 720 men an hr, 17,280 men a day. You will also realize that as you mentioned armies need a lot of supplies, so you will need more teleporters, and their power sources. So I guess you send in a teleporter that is big enough to teleport some smaller one? But then how do you actually send the first big teleporter over? Anti-grav nation will have 22km high looking down radar stations monitoring it's border. With fast reaction teams equipped with the very best in weapon and men.

I think you're stuck in world war 2 mentality too, where they actually fought over years, and went through multiple technological generation of weapons. I don't know the premise of the setting, does the teleporter nation have such an overwhelming advantage you proclaim because of the speed at which they can move stuff around? I am not sure, simply because we do not have any numbers to go on with.

If the teleporting machine do not obey the laws of thermodynamic, then they can basically make perpetual motion machine that will probably win the war on their own. Maybe you can do the same with the anti-grav and make machinery that creates more energy then it consumes.

For example, you could teleport water up the highest mountain they have, and set up multiple hydro-electric generator, and if it cost less energy to teleport the water back up, then is made turning your generators, profit.

You could also simply anti-grav huge water bassin up a mountain and profit if you spend less energy moving the water then is made by producing electricity.

As for your teleporter nation, is teleporting safe enough, and economical enough to have a teleporter in each house? Because otherwise you'll still need an awkward transportation system to move people around.

You try and proclaim yourself the last word on the subject with your dubious claim that "if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it." However, I think you're the bigger fool for assuming you're right without any data or realistic comparison to make your point.

If we're making statement based on nothing like you, here's one for you.

Anyone who claims that the teleporting nation wins, (insert the trek reference that teleportation is star-trek) is stupid, cuz I say so simply, and that anti-grav (star-wars of course since it fits more with that setting) will win simply because it's cooler.

Does that mean you're stupid? Nope, just as much as it doesn't mean I'm making a fool of myself for contradicting you and calling out your assumptions.

[Tamwyn_Lysovan]

ok...somehow we have forgotten that even if you can move the damned heavy guns and their supplies, it takes time. teleporter nation would not have this problem, and thus would ensure victory in a timely mannor. Going back to page 1 of this debate, wars are won by economies, not payloads. In other words, its a game of numbers, not size. I believe it was Authur C. Clark that told the tale of a world on which lived two nations. one was small, and extriemly technologically advanced. This nation had powerful weaponry that was eons ahead of those of thier foe. Unfortunately the weaponry was extriemly expensive and slow to produce, meaning it was in short supply. On the other hand, their enemy used much simpler weaponry, allowing them to produce their weapons faster and for a fraction of a cost. At the end of the story, the technologically advanced nation is decimated by the less advanced nation in a simple war of attrition. Simply put, the hoards of cheaply equiped soldiers over-ran the small force of high-tech soldiers. This is the why the bronze age was ended by the iron age; why the Union armies defeated their confederate counterparts, the french revolution was successfull, and why soviet russia regained stalingrad from Nazi hands.

Some of you may be wondering how this story applies to the current debate.

Here is your answer.

the teleporter nation has the ability to manufacture their weapons at a much faster rate, since they dont need to spend time transporting the raw materials to the location of the refineries, and then transport the refined materials to the factories to be made into parts, and then the parts to the assembly lines/locations to be assembled, and then the finished products to the distribution centers, and then from the distribution centers to the supply centers, and then from there to where they are actually needed. This effectivly cuts the time it takes weapons and supplies to reach where they are actually needed by about 90% (and thats being generous to the anti-gravity side). whats more, it cuts the cost of doing this by at least half, since they no longer need to pay for transportation of said weapons and supplies, (drivers, fuel, manufacture and maintainence of transportation vehicles, manufacture and up-keep of transportation lines, etc.). whats more, they wouldnt have to spend money on protecting the hundreds of thousands of miles of supply lines that would be used to transport everything conventionally. In effect, this frees up time and money that can be used to produce yet more weapons.

that established, let us turn to the Anti-gravity side. Their production methods are conventional, meaning they are much slower, much more costly, and far more inefficient. Assuming the best strategy for the anti-gravity nation is to build giant war machines, filled to the brim with devestating weaponry, troops, and the supplies necessary to keep them going; the time it would take to assemble such forces would be substantial (i cannot give an exact time frame, because i dont know the production methods in detail or the designs of the behemoths in question, which would cause substantial variation in production times). the vast majority of the production time and money would be wasted in transporting materials and manpower from one stage in the operation to the next between the different staging locations and protecting the entire opperation in the proccess. the propper term for this is logistics. This problem is then compounded by the fact that even once the behemoths are assembled and combat ready, they are aggonizingly slow and about as meuneverable as a brick.

for simplicities sake, lets assume the two nations begin building their forces at the same time, and deploy their forces at the same time. in the time it would take for the anti-gravity nation to build a small force of their massive and inpenetrabel juggernauts, the teleporter nation could build an equally destructive (if more vunerable) force that was several times larger.

and when these forces are deployed, the teleporter nation would simply need to land a single covert team with cheap combustion generator, in an unpopulated area (such as a large forrest). once this was established, (a fairly easy task in comparison to that of the anti-gravity nation) they would only need to activate a single teleporter end to unleash an entire invasion army. the time frame on such an opperation, rough estimation of 1-2 days.

the anti-gravity nation's forces would have to travel hundreds of thousands of miles at a relatively slow rate, needing protection along the entire route, which would use manpower and supplies to maintain (both of which are in relatively short supply in comparison to thier foes) further more, they would need to establish and protect supply lines as they went, using more men and supplies. these tactics, in combination with the already slow travel speed, would bring the time it would take for this force to arrive at the teleporter nations shores to a rough estimate of at least 3-5 days (accounting for delays due to weather and atmospheric contitions).

by the time the anti-gravity nations forces arrived at the shores of their foes, thier own nation would be under a full scale invasion by a vastly larger force and they would either be recalled to assist in defence, or would loose their supply lines and most of their escort force. the wiser choice here would to leave them in enemy territory and unleash them to wreak havok to the enemy homeland. in the end however, it would end with the behemoths running out of supplies, and the teleporters conquering the anti-gravity nation. the sheer numbers of the teleporter nation's troops would overwhelm the anti-gravity nation's defenders, and leave the behemoths with no where to resupply, eventually starving them out, via fuel, food, or munitions. this dosent stop the behemoths from completly oblerating large portions of the teleporter nation's landmass, but it also dosent change the out come.

and before you even consider that they could be recalled to aid in defence, obliterating large portions of their own land, and giving the enemy even more time to assemble, train, and deploy their forces through their gate point without interferance is just plain idiotic. and it dosent stop the teleporter nation from doing it again.

in the end, it boils down to basic rts game tatics. a constant stream of fast traveling, cheap units that deal relatevly small amounts of damage will always defeat a foe that attempts to build massive forces of slow moving, expensive heavy hitters.

if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it.

Tamwyn_Lysovan

So, you think that teleporting everything everywhere, without the use of any transport whatsoever, will be more efficient and faster then the anti-grav nation?

ok when did i say they totally forwent the conventional method of transportation? no where, said transportation from staging area to staging area...i never said they didnt use forklifts, or dozers, or earth movers.

Ok, so how do you build and move around teleporters that are 10 times heavier then the load then can teleport?

why its simple my dear watson...BREAK IT INTO SMALLER CHUNKS and then ASSEMBLE THEM POST TELEPORT...wow, you claim to know how this stuff would work [look below] and you cannot think of the most simple of solutions....really?

It becomes a "chicken or egg" paradox, because lets be honest here, how do you install all those teleporters everywhere if you don't possess the infrastructures and capacity to build a lot of industrial material?

again...i never said I didnt have such infrasturcture, above i spoke of manufacturing all over the place. just because i did not EXPLICITLY say they still used conventional production methods (i.e. dozers, drills, forklifts, conveyers, etc.) did not at any time mean THEY didnt use them....and when did it become an "I verses YOU" debate...really kid, dont get too into this. its just theory, chill

You've jumped one important step, which is the application of new technology which can be very slow and hard to accomplish.

actually kid, i didnt...it was stated in the opening post that both of the nations already had their repsective technologies and were already capable of using them...so where are you pulling this stuff? again, chill out

Also, assuming you sent a teleporting booth on the enemy's side, and started pumping soldiers madly out of it, what if a single well placed RPG takes it out? Now you have anywhere from 10 to thousand of soldiers with zero back up, no stockpile, and completely cut off from any escape.

kid, you obvously have no idea how to organize or plan a real war or battle at all. do you really think any commander would use a SINGLE teleporter? sure, they may use one to get things going, but then they just port through some engineers and the parts they need to build larger teleporters...a process that would become exponentially faster as more engineers came through and set up more teleporters. IN REALITY, the united states uses SEA-BEES or the ARMY CORE OF ENGINEERS for such tasks. their sole job (especially SEA-BEES) is to build everything an invading or occupying american military force could ever need, all while potentially being shot at the entire time. so the consept of a task of this sort is not new by any stretch. but back to the RPG...WHAT? again...do you really think anyone would be so STUPID to only use one teleporter...or to not even guard it? and do you really think that any group of soldiers in this senario...numbering 10 (TEN) to 1,000 (ONE THOUSAND) of what would for all greater purposes be SPECIAL OPPERATIVES (i.e. navy seals, green beretts and force recon equivalants) would be so dumb as to not have brought the parts to build AT LEAST ONE MORE with them? really?

I've said it before, we lack too much data to make any conclusive statement, you assume way too much.

I assume way to much? on the contrary, you are pulling FAR too much from what i am saying, and basing your conclusions on no actual understanding of the basic consepts this debate is centered on, the fundamental workings of warfare. if you cannot understand these, you really sould not be participating in this debate at present, since it is useing these fundamentals to try and predict the outcome of a HYPOTHETICAL conflict that has been altered by these nations each having a unique advantave/ability and the lack of materials necessary to make nuclear weapons

How do you propose to send those teleporters to the enemy exactly if your whole nation has foresworn the good old method of transporting stuff the classical way?

i never DID say that. if you read, both my post, and the ENTIRE thread, no where did anyone say that EITHER side totally foreswore conventional methods of transportation. Infact, if i recall correctly (which i am since i actually read and research before spouting totally made up information from the top of my head (more on that in a moment...), one of the most widely admited advantages by both sides of the debate was that the teleporters had the ability to refuel and resupply their CONVENTIONAL WAR MACHINES endlessly, so if they have foresworn all conventional methods of transportation, they cannot, by simple dedective reasoning, have conventional war machines, making this entire debate worthless...way to play a trump card you never had.

Also, raw materials will not teleport themselves by magic, you will still need massive amount of classical machinery, such as earth movers, dredge, bulldozers, etc...

do you think about what you are saying before you say it? going back to my first comment in this reply, YOU ARE WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED! get a grip man. THIS IS COMPLETLY HYPOTHETICAL! in your zeal for defending your (in all actual useful purposes) no existant oppionion (because when it boils down to it, none of this matters at all) you have lost your ability to fully reason and articulate your responces and are simply throwing what ever you can get your hands on or (as we will see next), come up with to try and win this debate. you are forgetting the entire point of the debate. It was posted simply to encourage forum interaction between members and stimulate forum community throught the ATTEMPT to deduce the outcome of an entierly fictional situation. sorry everyone for going all "psychological" there, but if you think about it, thats really the whole purpose of this excersize.

Also, why would the teleporter nation have such a huge numbers of troops compared to the anti-grav nation? To teleport a man, you'd need a roughly two ton teleporter, assuming you want to teleport man in the 250-400lbs range with gear and weapons. You can teleport once every 5 second, so 12 men a minute, 720 men an hr, 17,280 men a day. You will also realize that as you mentioned armies need a lot of supplies, so you will need more teleporters, and their power sources. So I guess you send in a teleporter that is big enough to teleport some smaller one? But then how do you actually send the first big teleporter over? Anti-grav nation will have 22km high looking down radar stations monitoring it's border. With fast reaction teams equipped with the very best in weapon and men.

and now going back to SEVERAL previous comments in this responce, you A) have no idea how to go about planning or fighting a full scale military engagement or war, so please stop pretending. the comment about the anti-gravity nation already having an established air-superiority with thier dreadnaughts was foolish. considering the entire point of my post was that they would never get enough off the ground to change the outcome of the war. B) have no idea how this technology actually works, since none actually exists, nor does any of the supposed math you are useing for you caluclations. IF you were to use a refrence, the closest one on hand would be a stargate and the related technology used by other factions in the series. that stated, there is no limit to how much mass could be transported in a day since the wormhole (which is the only rational way to teleport anything since the star treck method is completly in-humane and simply sick, if you have any questions, look up how it works and then think about it's effect on such things as the soul) would be open continously, and would need no more power then that which could be provided by four or five standard military grade combustable engines, as demonstrated in Stargate SG-1.

I think you're stuck in world war 2 mentality too, where they actually fought over years, and went through multiple technological generation of weapons. I don't know the premise of the setting, does the teleporter nation have such an overwhelming advantage you proclaim because of the speed at which they can move stuff around? I am not sure, simply because we do not have any numbers to go on with.

did you even read my post? if you simply look above this (I even left it in quotes so you could) i stated the entire war would be over in a matter of weeks once the real fighting began. for YOUR sake i gave each nation a period to amass thier forces, if only to make things faster. IF IT WERE REAL, this conflict would have continued for centuries. infact, if you look at the situation described in the origional post, it MOST LIKELY HAS! there are two nations, on an entire planet, they are at war...and they are using vastly different technologies and vastly different fighting styles to accomidate those technologies. further more with out the use of Nuclear wepons, they are forced to do things that "Hard way" this is simply a fairly recent (a decade or so) turn of events that is just "now" (now being relative since the whole thing dosent exist) coming into establsihment as standard for each nation. and remember those "BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF WAR" i was speaking of earlier, time is one of them. the whole reason hilter created the autobon and why FDR created the interstate syestem was to quickly transport troops and supplies. period. if you move your men and supplies faster then the enemy, you can better prepare for their every move and counter it all that more effectivly and thus (for the vast majority of the time) ensure victory. and while on that subject, another one of them is PLANNING FROM THE BEGINING. for some reason you jump to the part of the war where the Anti-gravity nation has already built and already established thier dreadnaughts as the air superiority. this is a major flaw in your planning...how did they get them there? do you really think the teleporter nation would just sit back and let their enemy do that without a fight? and whats more, THEY HAVE TO BE RESUPPLIED...this means the anti-gravity nation must TRANSPORT supplies such as food, water, fuel, muinitions, and parts THE CONVENTIONAL METHOD....allowing the teleporter nation ample opportunities to stop them, and that is assuming they were able to establish that position in the first place...which is what my entire post was based on...stopping them from the begining. and how can you rant about the mathematics of my purposed hypothetical resoning and then say we have no numbers to base anything on? and to be honest, yes...i am in a WWII state of warefare, simply because that is the only option of war without weapons of mass distruction. and for your information..the world as a whole still opperates on WWII tactics, since using a weapon of mass distruction at this point in time would simply cause nuclear armageddon. this is why the "WAR" in Iraq is taking so long...(i say "WAR" due to technicallities, it is an indefinate military opperation that has been allowed to continue far past constitutional peramaters and was never OFICIALLY delcared by congress as such, i have the highest respect for the men and women of our armed forces and those of all peoples to fight to eradicate oppression and tyrany over others)

If the teleporting machine do not obey the laws of thermodynamic, then they can basically make perpetual motion machine that will probably win the war on their own. Maybe you can do the same with the anti-grav and make machinery that creates more energy then it consumes.

pardon? when did ANYONE speak of the teleporters breaking the laws of thermodynamics? now your just making a fool of yourself.

For example, you could teleport water up the highest mountain they have, and set up multiple hydro-electric generator, and if it cost less energy to teleport the water back up, then is made turning your generators, profit.

You could also simply anti-grav huge water bassin up a mountain and profit if you spend less energy moving the water then is made by producing electricity.

do you have any idea about how these things work? the process you describe wouldnt work in the slightest. if you brought water from sea level, where it is relatively warm (incomparison to the top of the mountain) it would freeze, almost instantly...and before you ask, nobody understands why that happens...but it does. the substantial drop in atmospheric pressure and the vast drop in temprature would make the water freeze at an alarming rate. further more, if left as is, the water would never reach the bottom, it would have long evaporated from the gradual rise in temprature on the way down, the friction from its travel down the system and the friction of moving the generators...all of which could never create enough power to over come that of transporting the water up...please stop..the longer you talke the more foolish you sound

As for your teleporter nation, is teleporting safe enough, and economical enough to have a teleporter in each house? Because otherwise you'll still need an awkward transportation system to move people around.

this was established on the first page...try reading before you post.

You try and proclaim yourself the last word on the subject with your dubious claim that "if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it." However, I think you're the bigger fool for assuming you're right without any data or realistic comparison to make your point.

if anything i have given more data then you can even comprehend what to do with. while you have fantasized of Iowa class battleship turrets soaring effortlessly across the world before landing to unleas hell upon thier foes. i quoted a total of four realistic comparisons in the first paragraph...try reading next time. further more i DO have data, i have been providing it the entire time. little known to you i grew up in the world of Special forces, war planners and dignataries. on 9/11 I was the one who was threatoned to be shot on site if i left my house because the entire base was on red alert...I was the one who didnt see my parents for a week streight because they were assisting the Head of Special opperations command with mobilizing our nations spec ops assets, and sitting in breifings with CENTCOM's top war planners while they planned each step of our nations war on terror for the next decade, you wanna get personal and make me get EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED, here you go. so before you think you have a single IOTA of a clue as to what you are talking about, let me kindly inform you that you dont.
i appologize for that...but your false accusations are without base and therefore are simply a waste of space on the thread
If we're making statement based on nothing like you, here's one for you.

Anyone who claims that the teleporting nation wins, (insert the trek reference that teleportation is star-trek) is stupid, cuz I say so simply, and that anti-grav (star-wars of course since it fits more with that setting) will win simply because it's cooler.

and you end by first admitting your entire argument is based on a personal preferance between two fictional worlds that in truth have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then claim to point out the "assumptions" you have supposedly found in my argument? why do i even bother?

Does that mean you're stupid? Nope, just as much as it doesn't mean I'm making a fool of myself for contradicting you and calling out your assumptions.

[khursed]

So, you think that teleporting everything everywhere, without the use of any transport whatsoever, will be more efficient and faster then the anti-grav nation?

ok when did i say they totally forwent the conventional method of transportation? no where, said transportation from staging area to staging area...i never said they didnt use forklifts, or dozers, or earth movers.

So, how do you do it? You send some type of craft, boat, truck or combination, right? Why would you assume the anti-grav nation doesn't have a good early warning system? Why do you assume that with impunity the teleporter will simply bring a bunch of boxes filled with gigantic teleporter, and whip out an instant army, while the anti-grav from their city wall look in wonder and terror at the assembling army, never once doing anything. How many people do you send? I get that you will be sending a decent force, but we have no clue how complex and difficult it is to build those teleporters, nor do we even know their cost. We only know that the one who can send to any station are ten time as expensive, doesn't tell us squat about their overall price. I've re-read his original post, and we do not know if the cost of a teleporter is the same as a nice television, say a 1000$ or if it's the same price as a half a million dollar ferrari. Didn't you say it's a war of numbers? Then without knowing just how much this wonderful teleporting technology cost, how can we make any sort of assumptions? Let alone have your teleporter guys simply show up on the other side's and start popping out soldiers and stuff, which will still be a bitch, because as you yourself have mentioned, the supposedly awesome power of teleportation is that you can save time. But tell me this, how long does it take to assemble a 50 ton teleporter to bring in a 5 ton maximum cargo? You might be able to get a lot of soldier there, but you can forget about tanks, and heavy artillery. You can set up a lot of hardware for sure. However, I doubt that it would go as fast and as efficient as you think it would. I mean they have no building to protect them from the elements, they also do not have any established work space. I'd like to see this army materialize in the middle of nowhere fast enough to prevent a simply carpet bombing of the area to exterminate them.

Ok, so how do you build and move around teleporters that are 10 times heavier then the load then can teleport?

why its simple my dear watson...BREAK IT INTO SMALLER CHUNKS and then ASSEMBLE THEM POST TELEPORT...wow, you claim to know how this stuff would work [look below] and you cannot think of the most simple of solutions....really?

Refer to my previous comment dear Sherlock, I must admit, I find your elitism exquisite, can you try and be more arrogant and pretentious in your next post? I'd like you to really make me feel stupid and ignorant as if I am spouting pure crap instead of trying to gather facts and figure out exactly how this thing would work. Now, my point was simply to say that if you send an expedition to the enemy's side with all you need to pop up an instant army, you'll probably be moving with defenders, soldiers to protect the poor technicians who will be assembling the first teleporter so nicely packed into many small boxes. My issue since my first comment, is that I was wondering how do you figure they will be able to do so unhindered?

It becomes a "chicken or egg" paradox, because lets be honest here, how do you install all those teleporters everywhere if you don't possess the infrastructures and capacity to build a lot of industrial material?

again...i never said I didnt have such infrasturcture, above i spoke of manufacturing all over the place. just because i did not EXPLICITLY say they still used conventional production methods (i.e. dozers, drills, forklifts, conveyers, etc.) did not at any time mean THEY didnt use them....and when did it become an "I verses YOU" debate...really kid, dont get too into this. its just theory, chill

Well, the OP said that they applied both these technology to their civilian and military ends. He never said they were completely incorporated into their every day operations and perfectly harmonized with their whole war machine. There is also the little fact of not knowing how costly and easy it is to manufacture those technology in the first place. I must also point out, that to call me kid, while charming in the way you try and belittle my position and my supposed ignorance, feels really condescending and makes you look like someone who really can't stand the idea of being contradicted. Take a deep fresh breath of air and relax, there is no money to be won, no scantily clad women to impress, just a bunch of geeks on a forum debating completely impossible to prove theories. So, if we could resume this without you trying to murder my persona in an effort to discredit my arguments and my points, then can we proceed to simply rationally study the problem?

You've jumped one important step, which is the application of new technology which can be very slow and hard to accomplish.

actually kid, i didnt...it was stated in the opening post that both of the nations already had their repsective technologies and were already capable of using them...so where are you pulling this stuff? again, chill out

Well grandpa, I figure since you've adopted me, I must be the bastard child of one of your crack head daughter, so thank you for sparing me the agonizing life of being alone with a crazy woman who resort to drugs to make her life bearable because she was raped when she was 7, like I've already said, he said in the OP that they applied it to military and civilian ends. He never mentioned how well integrated and functioning those technology were in their respective field. Maybe someone bolted an anti-grav generator on the side of a tank and called it a day, and maybe the teleporter people have microwave in their trucks that teleport wataburgers... Who knows? Hence my whole questioning your assumption that the teleporter nation is capable of outproducing the anti-grav because they suddenly saved 90% of their effort and energy on transport. I do not see how you jumped to that conclusion from the OP. Maybe you'd care to enlightened me, since you've shown yourself to be my superior in every aspect.

Also, assuming you sent a teleporting booth on the enemy's side, and started pumping soldiers madly out of it, what if a single well placed RPG takes it out? Now you have anywhere from 10 to thousand of soldiers with zero back up, no stockpile, and completely cut off from any escape.

kid, you obvously have no idea how to organize or plan a real war or battle at all. do you really think any commander would use a SINGLE teleporter? sure, they may use one to get things going, but then they just port through some engineers and the parts they need to build larger teleporters...a process that would become exponentially faster as more engineers came through and set up more teleporters. IN REALITY, the united states uses SEA-BEES or the ARMY CORE OF ENGINEERS for such tasks. their sole job (especially SEA-BEES) is to build everything an invading or occupying american military force could ever need, all while potentially being shot at the entire time. so the consept of a task of this sort is not new by any stretch. but back to the RPG...WHAT? again...do you really think anyone would be so STUPID to only use one teleporter...or to not even guard it? and do you really think that any group of soldiers in this senario...numbering 10 (TEN) to 1,000 (ONE THOUSAND) of what would for all greater purposes be SPECIAL OPPERATIVES (i.e. navy seals, green beretts and force recon equivalants) would be so dumb as to not have brought the parts to build AT LEAST ONE MORE with them? really?

Not at all Grandpa, I merely posited that if the anti-grav somehow manages to carpet bomb the original set of teleporter, you could have a hell of a time supplying those troops. I'm trying to be realistic here. Because I'm willing to admit a small force of the very best of the best of the super mega really good best, would probably be able to bring a teleporter with a portable energy source. Ok, so they set shop, and start assembling an army, hopefully close to a target, because what would be the advantage of a teleporter if you have to walk 50 miles to strike at your target? So, all that said, yes you establish a foothold, and then what? Do they run to the next city and assemble another teleporter? Well that would be a swell idea, but the maximum size of any cargo they can teleport is 5 ton per the OP. I don't know about you, that doesn't make for much bigger then a SUV, and you can't go far with those damn gas guzzler. So I'll assume you bolted gas teleporter into each of them. Now you still need to move your stuff around, because even a huge numbers of soldiers will find fighting an modern military force with nothing above 5 ton quite a challenge. How do you propose to give them air cover? Remember that even if I were to concede that you have airplanes equipped with infinite teleporting fuel, you will have a really hard time providing continuous coverage of your forces at such an extreme range from your bases of operation.

I've said it before, we lack too much data to make any conclusive statement, you assume way too much.

I assume way to much? on the contrary, you are pulling FAR too much from what i am saying, and basing your conclusions on no actual understanding of the basic consepts this debate is centered on, the fundamental workings of warfare. if you cannot understand these, you really sould not be participating in this debate at present, since it is useing these fundamentals to try and predict the outcome of a HYPOTHETICAL conflict that has been altered by these nations each having a unique advantave/ability and the lack of materials necessary to make nuclear weapons

Grandpa, I know you're a highly decorated and experience veteran of multiple wars, you've probably risen to the rank of five star general (given in secret since we both know they only give the fifth star during time of war, and technically speaking the last 5 star general was Omar Bradley but I'm sure at least 5 different president signed secret executive orders to assign you a rank equal to our buddy General of the Armies George Washington, it's the least you deserve for your valiant contribution to the military of this great country.)So now knowing that you are the most qualified person on earth to debate our little war here. That being said, I just don't agree to say the teleport nation has such a massive industrial base as you assign them simply because the OP never said as such. Furthermore, I would say if that were the case, he wouldn't even bother with the whole post because then it would be pointless since the teleporter would have the capacity to exterminate their rival without much effort. So, I'll assume we're facing a pretty even field, when they both make their breakthrough in technology, they both find something unique, and as the OP post, we're at the stage where they must put the new technology into action to win this war. Otherwise, the whole exercise becomes pointless.

How do you propose to send those teleporters to the enemy exactly if your whole nation has foresworn the good old method of transporting stuff the classical way?

i never DID say that. if you read, both my post, and the ENTIRE thread, no where did anyone say that EITHER side totally foreswore conventional methods of transportation. Infact, if i recall correctly (which i am since i actually read and research before spouting totally made up information from the top of my head (more on that in a moment...), one of the most widely admited advantages by both sides of the debate was that the teleporters had the ability to refuel and resupply their CONVENTIONAL WAR MACHINES endlessly, so if they have foresworn all conventional methods of transportation, they cannot, by simple dedective reasoning, have conventional war machines, making this entire debate worthless...way to play a trump card you never had.


See Grandpa General of the armies 5 star wonder person, you imply it. Because you say they save so much money, time, energy and effort because of their more efficient system of transportation based on teleportation. However, I'm questioning how this would play out once in enemy territory, because I'll assume it's going to take a while to move everything around with teleporter in a nation not already equipped with it. See, you want to establish a beach head with a sneaky infiltration of soldiers on enemy soil. Fine, I'll grant that Grandpa, you've so generously saved me from a crack head mother, it's the least I can do. So now that you have your beach head, with all the soldiers you need, and the raw material, now what? They conquer the closest city, and then walk their way through Anti-gravitia? Because I don't see how setting shop right smack close to a valuable target will enable them to overrun an entire country without establishing normal supply routes and a lot of transportation.

Also, raw materials will not teleport themselves by magic, you will still need massive amount of classical machinery, such as earth movers, dredge, bulldozers, etc...

do you think about what you are saying before you say it? going back to my first comment in this reply, YOU ARE WAY TO EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED! get a grip man. THIS IS COMPLETLY HYPOTHETICAL! in your zeal for defending your (in all actual useful purposes) no existant oppionion (because when it boils down to it, none of this matters at all) you have lost your ability to fully reason and articulate your responces and are simply throwing what ever you can get your hands on or (as we will see next), come up with to try and win this debate. you are forgetting the entire point of the debate. It was posted simply to encourage forum interaction between members and stimulate forum community throught the ATTEMPT to deduce the outcome of an entierly fictional situation. sorry everyone for going all "psychological" there, but if you think about it, thats really the whole purpose of this excersize.

But dear Grandpa, I am merely trying to convey my doubt as to the teleporter's ability to actually transform their teleporting break through into the huge gain in efficiency and advantage you claim it is. Please I know you are weary after fighting all those wars surrounded by idiots all day long that never listen to you, if it had been just for you, we'd have won the Iraqi war in a few weeks instead of being messed up there for years. Not to mention you'd have made short work of the Afghanistan conflict given a chance, too bad the pentagon decided to go with their bad choice instead of your astonishing strategy that would have seen that war ended faster then my crack head mother sucks cocks when there's money dangling in front of her. Don't be so attached to this argument, in my heart you're always the winner of every war, even this whole argument, yet you know it is inevitable that youth will always seek to question and confront authority.

Also, why would the teleporter nation have such a huge numbers of troops compared to the anti-grav nation? To teleport a man, you'd need a roughly two ton teleporter, assuming you want to teleport man in the 250-400lbs range with gear and weapons. You can teleport once every 5 second, so 12 men a minute, 720 men an hr, 17,280 men a day. You will also realize that as you mentioned armies need a lot of supplies, so you will need more teleporters, and their power sources. So I guess you send in a teleporter that is big enough to teleport some smaller one? But then how do you actually send the first big teleporter over? Anti-grav nation will have 22km high looking down radar stations monitoring it's border. With fast reaction teams equipped with the very best in weapon and men.

and now going back to SEVERAL previous comments in this responce, you A) have no idea how to go about planning or fighting a full scale military engagement or war, so please stop pretending. the comment about the anti-gravity nation already having an established air-superiority with thier dreadnaughts was foolish. considering the entire point of my post was that they would never get enough off the ground to change the outcome of the war. B) have no idea how this technology actually works, since none actually exists, nor does any of the supposed math you are useing for you caluclations. IF you were to use a refrence, the closest one on hand would be a stargate and the related technology used by other factions in the series. that stated, there is no limit to how much mass could be transported in a day since the wormhole (which is the only rational way to teleport anything since the star treck method is completly in-humane and simply sick, if you have any questions, look up how it works and then think about it's effect on such things as the soul) would be open continously, and would need no more power then that which could be provided by four or five standard military grade combustable engines, as demonstrated in Stargate SG-1.

So, you didn't read that those teleporter can teleport 1/10th of their own weight every 5 seconds? Which was the basis for much of my argument? Because you seem to think they actually simply stole a couple stargate and started mass manufacturing them. BTW grandpa here's how the stargates work, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_%28device%29 They also seem to basically breakdown people to their basic elements and energy while they travel near the event horizon. Does that sound really any better then star trek? I'm not sure. So, as usual, I have to question you Grandpa, since the OP stated that his teleporting machines could at max weight 50 tons, and transit 5 tons every 5 seconds. I'm simply assuming what he said about the small one applies to the big one. Just for you here is what he said

These terminals range in scale from units about 10 kilograms which can teleport single kilogram payloads every five seconds (if both terminals have power, to which a wall socket can provide enough juice) to 50,000 kilogram stationary transmitters that can send 5,000 kilograms.

Now grandpa, I know you're old, and you think I'm impertinent, but tell me where he said those teleporter functioned as wormhole that allowed as much stuff to go through them connected to portable generators? Because I'll be honest, that is not what I read in his words. Also, the Stargate wormhole can only remain open for 38 minutes, a bit far from your "open continuously" comment.

I think you're stuck in world war 2 mentality too, where they actually fought over years, and went through multiple technological generation of weapons. I don't know the premise of the setting, does the teleporter nation have such an overwhelming advantage you proclaim because of the speed at which they can move stuff around? I am not sure, simply because we do not have any numbers to go on with.

did you even read my post? if you simply look above this (I even left it in quotes so you could) i stated the entire war would be over in a matter of weeks once the real fighting began. for YOUR sake i gave each nation a period to amass thier forces, if only to make things faster. IF IT WERE REAL, this conflict would have continued for centuries. infact, if you look at the situation described in the origional post, it MOST LIKELY HAS! there are two nations, on an entire planet, they are at war...and they are using vastly different technologies and vastly different fighting styles to accomidate those technologies. further more with out the use of Nuclear wepons, they are forced to do things that "Hard way" this is simply a fairly recent (a decade or so) turn of events that is just "now" (now being relative since the whole thing dosent exist) coming into establsihment as standard for each nation. and remember those "BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF WAR" i was speaking of earlier, time is one of them. the whole reason hilter created the autobon and why FDR created the interstate syestem was to quickly transport troops and supplies. period. if you move your men and supplies faster then the enemy, you can better prepare for their every move and counter it all that more effectivly and thus (for the vast majority of the time) ensure victory. and while on that subject, another one of them is PLANNING FROM THE BEGINING. for some reason you jump to the part of the war where the Anti-gravity nation has already built and already established thier dreadnaughts as the air superiority. this is a major flaw in your planning...how did they get them there? do you really think the teleporter nation would just sit back and let their enemy do that without a fight? and whats more, THEY HAVE TO BE RESUPPLIED...this means the anti-gravity nation must TRANSPORT supplies such as food, water, fuel, muinitions, and parts THE CONVENTIONAL METHOD....allowing the teleporter nation ample opportunities to stop them, and that is assuming they were able to establish that position in the first place...which is what my entire post was based on...stopping them from the begining. and how can you rant about the mathematics of my purposed hypothetical resoning and then say we have no numbers to base anything on? and to be honest, yes...i am in a WWII state of warefare, simply because that is the only option of war without weapons of mass distruction. and for your information..the world as a whole still opperates on WWII tactics, since using a weapon of mass distruction at this point in time would simply cause nuclear armageddon. this is why the "WAR" in Iraq is taking so long...(i say "WAR" due to technicallities, it is an indefinate military opperation that has been allowed to continue far past constitutional peramaters and was never OFICIALLY delcared by congress as such, i have the highest respect for the men and women of our armed forces and those of all peoples to fight to eradicate oppression and tyrany over others)

Grandpa here is a quote from wikipedia,

Just days after the 1933 Nazi takeover, Adolf Hitler enthusiastically embraced an ambitious autobahn construction project and appointed Fritz Todt the Inspector General of German Road Construction. By 1936, 130,000 workers were directly employed in construction, as well as an additional 270,000 in the supply chain for construction equipment, steel, concrete, signage, maintenance equipment, etc. In rural areas new camps to house the workers were built near construction sites.[6] The job creation program aspect was not especially important because full employment was almost reached by 1936. The autobahns were not primarily intended as major infrastructure improvement of special value to the military as often stated because they were of no military value as all major military transports in Germany were done by train to save fuel. The propaganda ministry turned them into a major media event that attracted international attention.

So, I'm starting to doubt your grasp of history grandpa, I know you're a 5 star highly decorated general that has overseen the conquest of multiple countries with your incomparable keen mind, however, why would you think nation that primarily relied on trains to move most of their freight, built expensive highways to wage war? I'm saddened that you fell for that propaganda, because that is all it is. You try and pass me off as the moron who can't grasp simple principle, yet you assume that teleporter nation has simply taken their technology and made it into an unstoppable juggernaut of war that the anti-grav nation has no hope of challenging or even stopping.

If the teleporting machine do not obey the laws of thermodynamic, then they can basically make perpetual motion machine that will probably win the war on their own. Maybe you can do the same with the anti-grav and make machinery that creates more energy then it consumes.

pardon? when did ANYONE speak of the teleporters breaking the laws of thermodynamics? now your just making a fool of yourself.

See, when you know about physics, you realize that most stuff is clearly possible or impossible, depending on a few factors. For example, the laws of thermodynamics are the most raped laws in science-fiction, because lets be honest, it sucks being limited by whats available. For instance, there exist exactly zero ways that we know of for the death star to carry enough fuel to destroy a planet in the way depicted on screen. So, by simple math, we can see if this applies to those teleporters, who can move massive object vast distance on the power output of a wall socket, who are usually rated at around 2500 watts. Now, knowing this single fact, do you know of any other physical way of moving object as far as 50,000km on 2500watts? Especially object weighting in at 5 tons? So 5000kg over 50 millions meters instantly, for 2500watt maximum? Suffice it to say that without knowing the specifics of both technology, just given a taste, it's easy to see they aren't too kosher. But maybe I am wrong as you've amply demonstrated. Admit it Grandpa, you let mommy smoke her crack when she was pregnant with me?

For example, you could teleport water up the highest mountain they have, and set up multiple hydro-electric generator, and if it cost less energy to teleport the water back up, then is made turning your generators, profit.

You could also simply anti-grav huge water bassin up a mountain and profit if you spend less energy moving the water then is made by producing electricity.

do you have any idea about how these things work? the process you describe wouldnt work in the slightest. if you brought water from sea level, where it is relatively warm (incomparison to the top of the mountain) it would freeze, almost instantly...and before you ask, nobody understands why that happens...but it does. the substantial drop in atmospheric pressure and the vast drop in temprature would make the water freeze at an alarming rate. further more, if left as is, the water would never reach the bottom, it would have long evaporated from the gradual rise in temprature on the way down, the friction from its travel down the system and the friction of moving the generators...all of which could never create enough power to over come that of transporting the water up...please stop..the longer you talke the more foolish you sound

So dear grandpa, if you bring water up the mountain it instantly freeze? and no one knows why? Wow, you sure tell me something amazing, because last spring I went to Colorado, and I went to elevation as high as 15,000 feet and for some weird reason my coke bottle didn't freeze over, neither did the water I brought for my dogs. Wouldn't you know it, the snow was actually melting! Yes, I know this is much for you to grasp and understand, the snow covers of many of the mountain was actually melting, and i think it's a simple question of the ambient temperature being high enough to melt it, but according to you, it should be frozen. I was figuring maybe to lift the water up to 3000 meter or so, and them fill a big reservoir, who would then simply feed an hydro-electric complex. Did you know that the water from the mountain in Colorado has the vexing quality of not obeying your strange idea that it should evaporate before it goes to rivers? Yes, with my own eyes, I saw water actually form nice rivers, instead of evaporating as you surmise. So I'll just ignore this weird physics of yours that implies water would be impossible to transport with those anti-grav engine up in altitude because it would freeze instantly. You do know water has one of the highest specific heat capacity known on earth right? Which makes it impressive that you would think it would instantly freeze as it reached higher altitude. I think what you are confusing your rambling for, is the simple fact that as you gain altitude, the air pressure decrease thus also decreasing the boiling temperature for water. Which doesn't mean that water will simply flash freeze once brought to high altitude. Anyway, all of that to say that if those new technology are using very low power to perform what they claim to do, I'm sure some clever person could probably build a perpetual motion machine with them.

As for your teleporter nation, is teleporting safe enough, and economical enough to have a teleporter in each house? Because otherwise you'll still need an awkward transportation system to move people around.

this was established on the first page...try reading before you post.

Actually it wasn't, it was simply stated that the technology was applied in both the civil and military sectors, it doesn't say at all how this is done, or how widely it is done, or how common it is. So, you might want to follow your own advice before making yourself look like a jerk with a mighty high esteem of himself, and a very condescending tone.

You try and proclaim yourself the last word on the subject with your dubious claim that "if you wanna argue with that...your just making a fool of yourself, and you know it." However, I think you're the bigger fool for assuming you're right without any data or realistic comparison to make your point.

if anything i have given more data then you can even comprehend what to do with. while you have fantasized of Iowa class battleship turrets soaring effortlessly across the world before landing to unleas hell upon thier foes. i quoted a total of four realistic comparisons in the first paragraph...try reading next time. further more i DO have data, i have been providing it the entire time. little known to you i grew up in the world of Special forces, war planners and dignataries. on 9/11 I was the one who was threatoned to be shot on site if i left my house because the entire base was on red alert...I was the one who didnt see my parents for a week streight because they were assisting the Head of Special opperations command with mobilizing our nations spec ops assets, and sitting in breifings with CENTCOM's top war planners while they planned each step of our nations war on terror for the next decade, you wanna get personal and make me get EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED, here you go. so before you think you have a single IOTA of a clue as to what you are talking about, let me kindly inform you that you dont.
i appologize for that...but your false accusations are without base and therefore are simply a waste of space on the thread

Yes 4 examples, Although your basis for those examples, a sci-fi novel that has a completely different premise, seems a pretty weird way of explaining the advantage of the teleporter nation. As far as I know, there was no war between an "iron civilization" that defeated another so called "Bronze civilization", the transition from the bronze age to the iron age had more to do with simple economics and supply issues. The civil war that seems to have involved a barbaric low technologic, yet numerous North, that simply overran a technologically superior South according to you if we follow your premise of the novel of Arthur C Clark... When in reality both side used comparative technology, not to mention the north actually had the bigger industrial. Feel free to illuminate me on the wonderful technology the south had, that couldn't turn the favor of the war in it's favor. You then go on to add the french revolution was successful, and how is this relevant to our current situation where two nation at war with one another? I mean last I checked, the french revolution wasn't a war between two country, it was a revolution, so using it as a validating argument for your teleporting nation seems completely unfounded, even if we try and follow your logic based on an Arthur C Clark sci-fi book of two warring nation with completely disparate technology. Last but not least, you try and use Stalingrad as another proof of a technologically superior foe defeated through sheer numbers armed with inferior technologies right? See, this is representative of the flaw in your whole argument, because Germany even though they had some amazing technology, wasn't actually that much more advanced then what the Soviets had, they even were incredibly surprised and astonished to face arguably the best tank of world war 2, the T-34. All those amazingly beloved tigers, panthers, tigers II tanks that have went down history as the greatest tanks of world war 2 were all answers to the best tank to that point in the T-34. Stalingrad was also the greatest meat grinder in history, I am loathe to even contemplate it being a simple case of a vastly technologically superior force being beaten by an inferior technology that simply answered with massive numbers. While it is true the Soviets did have numbers on their side, their technology wasn't as bad as you think it was, and you insult the nation that fought the greatest conflict in history with the most remarkable come back in history by implying that it was simply sheer numbers of inferior technology that defeated a smaller yet more advanced German army. For one when the German first attacked, they had the advantage in numbers, and when the Soviet won, they had roughly a 11 to 7 ratio advantage, as for technology, pretty much the same on both side, with the exception of extremely scarce supplies for the German seeing as they were encircled.

Let me just say I am not impressed at all with your overall idea that a superior technology can be beaten through attrition from a lesser technological opponent that does have the numerical advantage, as proof the teleporter nation will win. Especially when your whole argument is based on a sci-fi novel and dubious historical events that do not seem to support your theory.
If we're making statement based on nothing like you, here's one for you.

Anyone who claims that the teleporting nation wins, (insert the trek reference that teleportation is star-trek) is stupid, cuz I say so simply, and that anti-grav (star-wars of course since it fits more with that setting) will win simply because it's cooler.

and you end by first admitting your entire argument is based on a personal preferance between two fictional worlds that in truth have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then claim to point out the "assumptions" you have supposedly found in my argument? why do i even bother?

Indeed Granpa, why do you bother? I mean you've shown me no respect, you've implied I'm completely wrong on every point, and poured very thick the condescension toward me. Yet I fail to see why your views should be any more valid then mine, let alone your claim that you are so all knowing and incredibly gifted in the art of war that I would simply be a fool to even try and contradict you. Let's just say you haven't convinced me Grandpa.

Does that mean you're stupid? Nope, just as much as it doesn't mean I'm making a fool of myself for contradicting you and calling out your assumptions.

[Terralthra]

Please, stop with the colors. Use nested quotes.

[Tamwyn_Lysovan]

Touche...

i must admit i could not help but laught at the entire situation as i read it.
i concede. Bravo sir...bravo.

to be totally honest, your points are valid,and i thank you for pointing out the many holes in my argument. I am honestly impressed and stand humbly before you. whats more, i am greatful to you for ingnoring my outburst. to say the least I have been quite deprived of sleep, and have lost quite a few filters i would usually have. thank you for putting me into my propper place.
and quite a nice job of it as well. you have a nice taste for style and it is refreshing to say the least.

all rudeness asside, for which i appologize (yes im kissing ass...i was wrong, its deserved)

i did miss the package to gear weight ratio in the origional post. you have me there. and as to power, that should probably be fixed. a larger teleporter would obvously need a larger powersupply. thank you for clarifying your seemingly random rant.

and my entire argument for the advantage due to faster production methods was based on the premisis as gained from personal experience, 90% of all production time is wasted on materials going through the mail and sitting in piles waiting to be inventoried before it can be used in the next phase of the production.

the fact you no longer had to pay individuals to transport materials for such purposes and could re invest those personel and the money and time used for that purpose into furthering the war machine
this would allow the the teleportation nation to yield a higher rate of production for overall cheaper cost/product, thus producing more soldiers, for seeminly cheaper, and at a faster rate.

as to invasion tactics, it may be wiser to simply build the teleporters in large cities...in places such as deserted warehouses, slums and basements. this would allow the forces to enter enemy teritory less noticably and would provide ample power for running the teleporters.

again...my thanks and respect.

Tamwyn_Lysovan

[madd0ct0r]

huh. was about to call Tamwyn out for trolling - guess I was wrong.

I'm not sure you'd get as high as 90% time saving.

Transport time is minimal, but you still have packing, loading and unloading times - stuff still needs to be sorted, palleted, written up, stamped, wrapped, forklifted to the transporter bay, sent to the hub, fork lifted off, assigned to the correct branch for detestation, stored until portal is clear, sent to branch (or next hub), recieved, forklfited into warehouse or to correct processing line, unpacked ect

working perfectly, it'd be a massively efficient system. In reality, I think the human factor will still be the limiting one - mistakes, collisions, lost addresses or other simple fuckups. It also depends hugely on how expensive each teleporter is to build.

Zor- we're going to need cost of teleports and ant-grav systems (either absolute or relative to a common piece of machinery), how cost scales with size ect.

[khursed]

Touche...

i must admit i could not help but laught at the entire situation as i read it.
i concede. Bravo sir...bravo.

to be totally honest, your points are valid,and i thank you for pointing out the many holes in my argument. I am honestly impressed and stand humbly before you. whats more, i am greatful to you for ingnoring my outburst. to say the least I have been quite deprived of sleep, and have lost quite a few filters i would usually have. thank you for putting me into my propper place.
and quite a nice job of it as well. you have a nice taste for style and it is refreshing to say the least.

all rudeness asside, for which i appologize (yes im kissing ass...i was wrong, its deserved)

i did miss the package to gear weight ratio in the origional post. you have me there. and as to power, that should probably be fixed. a larger teleporter would obvously need a larger powersupply. thank you for clarifying your seemingly random rant.

and my entire argument for the advantage due to faster production methods was based on the premisis as gained from personal experience, 90% of all production time is wasted on materials going through the mail and sitting in piles waiting to be inventoried before it can be used in the next phase of the production.

the fact you no longer had to pay individuals to transport materials for such purposes and could re invest those personel and the money and time used for that purpose into furthering the war machine
this would allow the the teleportation nation to yield a higher rate of production for overall cheaper cost/product, thus producing more soldiers, for seeminly cheaper, and at a faster rate.

as to invasion tactics, it may be wiser to simply build the teleporters in large cities...in places such as deserted warehouses, slums and basements. this would allow the forces to enter enemy teritory less noticably and would provide ample power for running the teleporters.

again...my thanks and respect.

Tamwyn_Lysovan

I'm not saying you don't make good points.

I am sure the teleporter would be a stupenduous asset given the proper network, and I'm even willing to concede for civilian industrial advances it far outstrips the anti-grav.

I do think for purely military application the anti-grav would greatly outperform teleportation.

But without enough info, I still think we can't reach any agreable conclusion, because we just can't say who would actually win, the incredibly more efficient industry of teleporter, or the vastly more powerful military product of anti-grav?

I took to the anti-grav and pointed the teleporter's problem, but I could just as well pointed out the flaws of the anti-grav and the benefit of teleporting. I think when all is said and done, the most frustrating thing overall, is the lack of information.

Anyway, no hard feeling, haven't had such an interesting debate in forever, so glad we can come to a respectful discourse in the future

[Zor]

Zor- we're going to need cost of teleports and ant-grav systems (either absolute or relative to a common piece of machinery), how cost scales with size ect.

An antigravity harness costs about $5,000 to $8,000, but this is due to the miniaturization. A vehicle with comparable scale to a regular automobile would cost about twice as much as said automobile. An antigravity freighter costs about 150% what a regular freighter would cost to build. Provided they are not damaged, the systems are fairly robust and don't wear out quickly.

For $2,000 a household in the teleportation nation can have a general purpose small scale terminal rated for a kilogram linked up to a regional hub. They scale up mathematically. Two one hundred kilogram terminals cost $200,000 each. As mentioned, networked terminals exist that can have an address dialed in, and these cost ten times as much and are usually installed in public locations as a means of transportation between cities.

Zor

[PeZook]

The idea to use antigrav generators for mass lightening is...brilliant.

See, the big problem with armoring vehicles right now is mass. The more armor you pile on ,the heavier the vehicle, the larger engine you need etc.

Having a 70 ton MBT weigh only 30 tons is a HUGE boon: you can either use the excess engine power to increase speed, or just install a vastly smaller, cheaper engine without sacrificing any protection. Same goes for utility vehicles, trucks, etc.

Of course, said MBT will cost twice as much as a normal one, as we've just learned, and probably several times more than a 70 ton MBT made by the teleporter nation thanks to their teleport-based economy...so it's likely that antigravburgians might be able to easily cross unfavorable terrain etc. but teleporterstanis will just have more assets so...they can just adequately cover that unfavorable terrain, especially since they can more efficiently distribute supplies such as water, fuel, food and ammo around to garrisons. Which comes back again to sophistication encouraged by antigrav vs. brute force numbers games encouraged by teleportation.

working perfectly, it'd be a massively efficient system. In reality, I think the human factor will still be the limiting one - mistakes, collisions, lost addresses or other simple fuckups. It also depends hugely on how expensive each teleporter is to build.

Well...these happen anyways, so all things considered, using teleporters WILL be more efficient (because people fuck up loading and unloading trucks, too ; But if you, say, mess up a teleporter adress, you get the package back in five seconds instead of two working days)

[PeZook]

Terrorism, though...man.

Bring teleporter. Assemble and plug in teleporter. Get weapons, explosives, nerve gas, money and anything else you need to blow up factories and assassinate officials...

Of course antigravburgians will do their damnedest to control for teleporter parts being brought in, but spies already manage to smuggle weapons around IRL ; The fact you only have to succeed ONCE will make this a security nightmare.

[Simon_Jester]

The idea to use antigrav generators for mass lightening is...brilliant.

See, the big problem with armoring vehicles right now is mass. The more armor you pile on ,the heavier the vehicle, the larger engine you need etc.

The antigravity generators for lifting a two-ton civilian vehicle cost about as much as an automobile. Scale up to a 100-ton tank and its antigravity system costs about as much as fifty automobiles- roughly a million dollars, which is a relatively small part of the cost of something like an Abrams.

Having a 70 ton MBT weigh only 30 tons is a HUGE boon: you can either use the excess engine power to increase speed, or just install a vastly smaller, cheaper engine without sacrificing any protection. Same goes for utility vehicles, trucks, etc.

You only get excess engine power on uphill grades, PeZook. Gravitational mass is not inertia.

Or does this thing reduce inertia? In that case it's spectacularly useful and probably trumps teleportation.

working perfectly, it'd be a massively efficient system. In reality, I think the human factor will still be the limiting one - mistakes, collisions, lost addresses or other simple fuckups. It also depends hugely on how expensive each teleporter is to build.

Well...these happen anyways, so all things considered, using teleporters WILL be more efficient (because people fuck up loading and unloading trucks, too ; But if you, say, mess up a teleporter adress, you get the package back in five seconds instead of two working days)

You're paying 2000$ per kilogram per five seconds. Thinking about military logistics, hm. Before Stuart wound up as de facto persona non grata here, there was a big thread on WWII logistics. Using the tonnage figures for that I can guesstimate a supply requirement of ROUGHLY 1000 tons/day for an infantry division in heavy combat; the division's teleporters will have to be able to handle the load of heavy combat

You probably need a teleporter in the 1000-kg weight class; two or three for redundancy's sake and to make sure your supply line isn't totally dependent on a single location the enemy can take out with one well-placed missile. Not bad.

Terrorism, though...man.

Bring teleporter. Assemble and plug in teleporter. Get weapons, explosives, nerve gas, money and anything else you need to blow up factories and assassinate officials...

Of course antigravburgians will do their damnedest to control for teleporter parts being brought in, but spies already manage to smuggle weapons around IRL ; The fact you only have to succeed ONCE will make this a security nightmare.

Power consumption could be an issue. Do you need electricity to run the receiving end of the teleporter? How much? If your deserted warehouse suddenly sprouts a megawatt-class generator plant, someone's gonna notice.

[PeZook]

The antigravity generators for lifting a two-ton civilian vehicle cost about as much as an automobile. Scale up to a 100-ton tank and its antigravity system costs about as much as fifty automobiles- roughly a million dollars, which is a relatively small part of the cost of something like an Abrams.

Zor's figures don't really give that impression: a freighter with antigrav still costs 150% of a regular freighter, so I don't think they scale linearly.

You only get excess engine power on uphill grades, PeZook. Gravitational mass is not inertia.

Or does this thing reduce inertia? In that case it's spectacularly useful and probably trumps teleportation.

That's true, and a pretty crucial question, because if the grav things reduce inertia then yes, you can have supersonic sky battleships

You probably need a teleporter in the 1000-kg weight class; two or three for redundancy's sake and to make sure your supply line isn't totally dependent on a single location the enemy can take out with one well-placed missile. Not bad.

They couldn't handle big loads, like tank engines though. Some aircraft weapons might not come through the biggest available ones, but most supplies are ammo, food, water, fuel and medicine, which will fit through just fine.

Power consumption could be an issue. Do you need electricity to run the receiving end of the teleporter? How much? If your deserted warehouse suddenly sprouts a megawatt-class generator plant, someone's gonna notice.

Zor said a wall plug can provide enough juice. Just don't run it all the time, and nobody will be able to track it by power consumption alone - sabotage doesn't require that much heavy gear, so a kilogram-scale teleporter should work fine to supply a smallish cell.

[Beowulf]

It was previously stated that all anti-grav does is provide a box that exerts upward force. No inertia canceling, no directly negating gravity inside a field, just a box that gives upward force.

[Simon_Jester]

Zor's figures don't really give that impression: a freighter with antigrav still costs 150% of a regular freighter, so I don't think they scale linearly.

You only get excess engine power on uphill grades, PeZook. Gravitational mass is not inertia.

Or does this thing reduce inertia? In that case it's spectacularly useful and probably trumps teleportation.

That's true, and a pretty crucial question, because if the grav things reduce inertia then yes, you can have supersonic sky battleships

As noted, you can't. Darn.

So basically it doesn't let you save engine weight. What it does do is reduce ground pressure- at the cost of also reducing traction, so it's not necessarily a winning game.

You probably need a teleporter in the 1000-kg weight class; two or three for redundancy's sake and to make sure your supply line isn't totally dependent on a single location the enemy can take out with one well-placed missile. Not bad.

They couldn't handle big loads, like tank engines though. Some aircraft weapons might not come through the biggest available ones, but most supplies are ammo, food, water, fuel and medicine, which will fit through just fine.

Tank engines can come through in pieces- can be designed for it if need be. The tanks themselves can't- there are limits.

Zor said a wall plug can provide enough juice. Just don't run it all the time, and nobody will be able to track it by power consumption alone - sabotage doesn't require that much heavy gear, so a kilogram-scale teleporter should work fine to supply a smallish cell.

Now see, the low power consumption of the teleporters really swings the balance in the favor of the teleport guys. To do anything with antigravity you need engines that generate real, serious power output because that's what it takes to move antigravity vehicles. To operate the teleporter you need a gas-powered generator and you're shuffling stuff half way around the world.

It's inherently unbalanced.

[PeZook]

The ability to ford rivers without any complex equipment cannot be understated, though it doesn't really compensate for the extremely simplified logistics of your enemy.

Fording rivers would be pretty quick for antigrav vehicles: cross small detachments first, set up a simple rope-pulley system and pull the tanks across in a-g mode.

[vengence]

I believe based on how the OP that the 1kg teleporters were the ones powered by the wall outlet, and it seams likely the power would scale up from there.

[Simon_Jester]

Even so- that means I can move the equivalent of a freight train load of stuff every day with a steady power drain of something like 100 kW. A teleporter rated to 300 kg, used at maximum rate, will shift about five thousand tons of material every day, and comparing that to typical wall outlet devices... yeah.

It's really powerful technology, and I think the advantage of being able to do it on such a low power drain has a lot to do with making it trump antigravity.

[Rossum]

For an invasion force the Teleporters could have submarines outfitted with human capable teleporters. Have a sub patrol the beaches of the enemy, teleport in invasion groups into the sub along with parts for more teleporters, engineers to assemble them, and some inflatable rafts (really, expect alot of inflatable things or tents being used by the special ops teams from teleporter nation). They teleport into the sub, sub surfaces, team gets on a raft and makes for the mainland. Once they find a secure area they assemble a teleporter and start sending in more parts to make more teleporters ("Erecting a dispenser!").

Also, I know you've said the teleporters can range from 1 kg to much larger ones, but could they make smaller more miniturized teleporters? Even if it's just used for sending messages this technology would be quite useful for espionage if the teleportation effect can bypass things like solid rock or whatever. One guy in the middle of the enemy territory with a teleporter of any size (even if it only can sent slips of paper) apparently gets a 50,000 km range and can send messages, photos, or samples of enemy blueprints back to his home base and get messages back. Heck, if it can send in paper of any kind then an operative in Anti-grav nation could send home a piece of currency and have the folks back home counterfeit it and send him back loads of counterfeit Antigravity Nation cash.

Then, he starts flooding the Antigrav Nations market with counterfeit currency to muck up their economy. Really, the opportunities for espionage would be excellent so long as there was at least one covert Teleport submarine or base of any kind within range of the operative. If he could get his hands on anything, he could send it back and a team of the best forgers around could see about making ID badges or money or documents or special high-tech spy gizmos to do his job.

Or plop a guy behind enemy lines and have him monitor radio transmissions. He has a radio system set up that monitors transmissions, then records them all on tapes, then he sends them back home where they can be analyzed. One guy with a radio and a small teleporter could live in a shack or base monitoring transmissions and sending them back home, all his food and needs met by getting stuff sent to him via teleporter. He doesn't even have to be there 24/7 (necessarily) just have something that records transmissions onto tapes or whatever and every once in a while he swaps the tapes out for a fresh one and sends the full one back home to be analyzed or decrypted.

With the sheer ease they can send in lone operatives and keep them hidden behind enemy lines, the Teleporter Nation should have a really good chance of learning about any huge sized airships their enemy is making. Then its a matter of sabotaging its construction. Even with a 2 km teleporter, I'm sure the military will find ways to send through explosives, nerve gas, RPGs, or whatever to their operatives and use them to mess up enemy construction sites.

It also shouldn't be unthinkable that a highly trained spy from Teleporter Nation who has a direct line home for all the Antigrav Currency he could need (counterfeit or real, assuming the two nations have traded in the past) and similar access to tools and weapons could manage to get his hands on some plans or intel on these huge airships.

Heck, unless Antigrav Nation is somehow in complete control of its subjects, you can expect that plenty of people could be coerced/tricked into giving away government secrets to someone who can get them darn near anything they want. Really, one special agent from Teleport Nation who's got government funding behind him should be able to get access to all the fine wine, money, gold, or whatever he needs to bribe his way to victory.

Hell, if some Antigrav scientist feels like betraying his own government in return for a clean conscience ("My flying mobile Death Fortress was supposed to HELP mankind, not destroy it!") then the spy could arrange for him and his family to make their way back to Teleport Nation. Or they could kidnap people to be interrogated back at home. They could even make contact with local criminal organizations and try to buy their services with loads of smuggled goods and counterfeit currency (or just give them counterfeit money to spend as they want and let the economic damage take care of itself).

Really, the opportunities to send and receive items from behind enemy lines hold opportunities far beyond simply sending in troops, the espionage and economic muddling opportunities are just as important if not moreso should either nation not be fully dedicated to the genocide of the other.

[PeZook]

Dude, I wouldn't count on lone operatives to be able to stop sky battleship construction altogether, since the guy would still have to penetrate security at the site in order to actually do it ; Teleporting in the necessary gear will make it easier, not victory by default. He will still have to move that stuff to where it's needed, recon the site etc, which means classic security measures (ie. lots of guys with guns) will work fine.

Heck, unless Antigrav Nation is somehow in complete control of its subjects, you can expect that plenty of people could be coerced/tricked into giving away government secrets to someone who can get them darn near anything they want. Really, one special agent from Teleport Nation who's got government funding behind him should be able to get access to all the fine wine, money, gold, or whatever he needs to bribe his way to victory.

This is just classic espionage ; What does having a teleporter help with here?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think the point is that having the teleporter available means he can literally provide anything from the teleporter nation the prospective agent might want, at short notice, without having to smuggle it in. It would also allow him to keep funded in hard currency without having to smuggle THAt in either.

[vengence]

Heck, unless Antigrav Nation is somehow in complete control of its subjects, you can expect that plenty of people could be coerced/tricked into giving away government secrets to someone who can get them darn near anything they want. Really, one special agent from Teleport Nation who's got government funding behind him should be able to get access to all the fine wine, money, gold, or whatever he needs to bribe his way to victory.

This is just classic espionage ; What does having a teleporter help with here?

Even more so the antigrav nation can do the same. I'm sure there is someone who would be more than willing to sell the locations to the teleporters supply bunkers. Better yet why not use cyber warfare to hack the teleporter nations power plants and track the locations of the bunkers by their power usage.

For an invasion force the Teleporters could have submarines outfitted with human capable teleporters. Have a sub patrol the beaches of the enemy, teleport in invasion groups into the sub along with parts for more teleporters, engineers to assemble them, and some inflatable rafts (really, expect alot of inflatable things or tents being used by the special ops teams from teleporter nation). They teleport into the sub, sub surfaces, team gets on a raft and makes for the mainland. Once they find a secure area they assemble a teleporter and start sending in more parts to make more teleporters ("Erecting a dispenser!").

anti submarine warfare makes getting subs in undetected difficult. Also the nations would have access to diesel subs. The are many ways that the antigravs could set up defenses against a naval incursion.

[Rossum]

Dude, I wouldn't count on lone operatives to be able to stop sky battleship construction altogether, since the guy would still have to penetrate security at the site in order to actually do it ; Teleporting in the necessary gear will make it easier, not victory by default. He will still have to move that stuff to where it's needed, recon the site etc, which means classic security measures (ie. lots of guys with guns) will work fine.

I don't think I claimed he could stop construction altogether, he would just be more capable of getting access to and delivering the plans, ETA, and information on the sky battleships than other operatives would. This could better allow the Teleporter Nation to find out what sort of sky battleships they would be going up against and then plan counters against it (or who knows, maybe opt to surrender if these sky battleships really are unstoppable and the Antigravians aren't genocidal monsters).

I merely pointed out that with a smallish teleporter on hand, a lone operative could send back intelligence faster and get supplies in turn without alot of the trouble that smuggling them in would require. If it looks like the Sky Battleship will be ready to go in X months, then a lone operative could conceivably decide to teleport in several thousand 1 kg canisters of plastic explosives or nerve gas or whatever, put them on a stolen flying bus, and perform a suicide run or whatever to mess up the construction site (or any number of other things depending on the situation).

If that attack can delay the construction of the sky battleship to any extent then it provides the teleporter nation back home that much more time to set up defenses against it.

Or they could send in biological agents to contaminate the food supply, blow up oil fields, set fire to croplands, perform random acts of terrorism and stir up unrest or any number of other things. If the Antigrav Nation is planning to build giant battleships to bomb the Teleporter Nation back into the stone age and exterminate their people then an agent with a teleporter is that much more capable of finding this out and delivering the intel than one without, he's also that much more capable of getting whatever he needs to perform acts of terrorism that would mess up the enemy and prevent his homeland from getting bombed.

With a direct teleport line leading into Antigrav Nation, knowledge that their enemy is planning to bomb them with superior warships, and all of their own modern technologies, the Teleporters could have to resort to terrorism to properly disrupt their enemy (if conventional warfare doesn't work). If they can mix up something like Anthrax, send it to their agents, and have said agents spread it all over through the mail or contaminate crops or herds of cattle then that could mess up the Antigravs enough to slow battleship construction. Or plan bombing raids against infrastructure with all the troops, rockets, and weaponry they can fit through their teleporters.


Antigrav Nation can do this as well, its just that in order to do so they need to send airships or use conventional means of smuggling supplies. Teleporter Nation should have access to radar and other means of detecting incoming airships and other conventional smuggling means. Its just that teleporters can send things both ways instantly and undetectably across 50,000 kilometers. So teleporters give a huge advantage in smuggling things across the border for terrorism or espionage.