Avengers out on DVD

[Batman]

The problem (if you want to call it that, I suspect this thread has already put more thought into 'how does the no movement enchantment work' than the makers of the movie ever did) is that we are not told any of that within the confines of the movies. TedC's explantion in all likelihood works for Mjolnir's behavior in the movies, as does yours. The problem is that as far as the movie is concerned, all of that is out of universe information. You know it can be done, I know it can be done, so does most everybody else on this board, the problem is nobody in the movies ever said it happened.
All we see is, again
1. Nobody can move that damned hammer from where it's been put, yet
2. the helicarrier happily carries it along, and
3. it's being moved by Earth's rotation, Earth orbiting the sun, and the solar system orbiting the center of the galaxy (unless you want to argue those don't apply in the Marvel movieverse).
I'm not looking for how that enchantment could work given what we know about the Marvel universe. I'm trying to figure out how it could work given exclusively the information from the movies.

[PeZook]

So you'd like to be treated to a pile of exposition about a matter completely incidental to the actual plot? Who the hell cares how it does what it does?

[Batman]

I dunno. People trying to figure out how it does what it does, perhaps? Nobody said any of this would actually be important to the plot (which it wouldn't), but while I can't speak for anybody else I personally would be curious about how if at all you can resolve the Mjolnir movement issue (i]without resorting to out of movie information[/i].

[PeZook]

What, exactly, is out of movie information? We are told Asgardians are all demi gods, we are shown they're hella advanced technologically, we can make pretty complex programming algorithms today...so the only thing required is that the hammer can actually stay in place if it wants to, and have "sensors" of sorts to figure out if it's being moved on purpose.

[Kojiro]

Except that doesn't explain why Loki has to go through what looks like a rather rough ride through a Tesseract-generated portal to get to Earth at the beginning of The Avengers. In your scenario, he's already on Earth.

You're right, I had forgotten about that. But we do know Loki knows ways between worlds other than the Bifrost. Between Jotunheim and Asgard at the least. It's possible another path exists to Earth. Given that when the Warriors 3 arrive Shield knows instantly via the Bifrost, it seems to visit Thor he'd have to have used some alternate way that alerts neither Shield nor Heimdal. I'd be inclined to believe it is nothing more than some sort of mental projection (certainly would explain why no one could see him) except he tries to grab Mjolnir, something you'd only attempt if you were actually there.

As for Mjolnir moving, I'm just going to assume it has some rudimentary intelligence and the enchantment kicks in when it senses an unworthy hand upon it and counteracts that and only that force. A friend did ask the question 'What would happen if an unworthy person grabbed it in space' but if you think we've over thought it already probably best to leave that alone. What's really impressive is that Odin added the enchantment in just a few seconds, seemingly by speaking it to the hammer, and conveying all the nuances and conditions. That's some serious magi-tech.

[Batman]

What, exactly, is out of movie information? We are told Asgardians are all demi gods, we are shown they're hella advanced technologically, we can make pretty complex programming algorithms today...so the only thing required is that the hammer can actually stay in place if it wants to, and have "sensors" of sorts to figure out if it's being moved on purpose.

Which...nobody ever tells us. That's all speculation on your part. What I'm trying to do (and all I'm trying to do)is find out how that damn hammer manages to stay unliftable yet can nevertheless be merrily carried along by the SHIELD helicarrier.

[Havok]

Because Thor took it there... I mean why doesn't it stop the planet from spinning?
There is obviously some advanced "programming" in the damned thing if Odin can alter it's surface just by speaking to it.

And just because Thor, not exactly a scientist, says magic and science are one and the same doesn't mean it's true. Keep in mind he is using what his father told him, I'm pretty sure when he was a child, when he is talking to Jane. You can't do analysis based on dialogue.

[Kojiro]

Thor may not be a scientist but he is a prince, at least a thousand years old (assuming he aged alongside Loki who was a baby in 965 or so) and son of Odin. He's unlikely to be anything less than well educated due to his status if nothing else. I'm sure over the centuries he's had more in depth instruction regarding the realms and science/magic. If anything I'd say he was dumbing it down for Jane/the audience. Obviously science can't be magic, though one could easily be mistaken for the other.

[PeZook]

Their technology might be just so commonplace and integrated into their lives that they can alter reality with commands that resemble spells, carry weapons for the aesthetics without sacrificing combat effectiveness, etc.

Kind of like every one of us has information available at their fingertips right now. Imagine if you could command more than just a glorified library ; If you could order manufacturing machines around and get the results anywhere you went, etc.

[Lusankya]

Also, I'm pretty sure that Loki's reconnaissance was more than just that one visit. Remember him wandering around those SHIELD storage vaults while invisibly controlling Selvig at the end of Thor? He knew what SHIELD had to use against him.

I don't think Loki was physically present in that teaser; he was more "inside Selvig's head", seeing and hearing what Selvig saw and heard and influencing Selvig's behavior.

Whether or not he was physically present has little to do with whether or not he was effectively performing recon. Even if he was just inside Selvig's head, he was still getting all the info he needed on what kind of goodies SHIELD had locked away in their vaults.


Thinking about Mjolnir, the helicarrier could be able to move the hammer because it has a level of automation that prevents the hammer from recognising the force moving it as being from a living being. Sure, there are technically people "driving" the helicarrier, but once their orders get parsed through all the various computers that control it, the human element gets lost, and the hammer treats the carrier's movement like it would, say, an earthquake (presumably if there were an earthquake or landslide, then the hammer would move with that, otherwise Mjolnir might be left hanging in mid-air, which would probably not suit Odin's sense of aesthetics). When Stan Lee tries to movie it with his ute, however, the human intent element is too closely intertwined with the force to overcome the hammer's magic, and thus he can't move it.

[Ted C]

And where's the problem? The hammer is probably "programmed", for lack of a better word, to prevent itself from being wielded ; So it won't try to resist floating through the cosmos or riding on a vehicle it was dropped on or rolling down a hill, but when say a government organization or bunch of rednecks try to move it using machinery or tricks, it fucks with their attempts because they'd want to wield it.

Given that Asgardian "magic" is just very advanced science, I think we can regard the hammer's "lift/wield" restriction as something controlled by an AI program that's part of the hammer. That would also explain why the hammer will sometimes race around and hit multiple targets when Thor throws it while other times returning after the first hit. It also explains how it's able to fly to his hand when he has apparently left it sitting on a table in a fairly distant room. Basically, the hammer decides whether it should allow itself to be moved under any given circumstance.

Some sort of ability to receive remote ("telepathic") commands is also necessary for some of the hammer's tricks.

[Crazedwraith]

Alternatively, the hammer is made of narrativium. It moves when the plot wants it to and it doesn't when it doesn't.

[Batman]

Yeah, but where's the fun in that?
A propos what is the hammer made of-I know Mjolnir is made of Uru in the comics but does the term ever come up in the movies?

[Ted C]

Yeah, but where's the fun in that?
A propos what is the hammer made of-I know Mjolnir is made of Uru in the comics but does the term ever come up in the movies?

According to Odin in Thor, Mjolnir was "forged from the heart of a dying star".

[Replicant]

The most parsimonious explanation is that Thor has power, that Odin takes from him ("the power of THOR!", not "the power of THOR's armor") and imbues in Mjölnir, dependent on the wielder being "worthy."

Interesting that the 'power of Thor' seems to include the baseline attributes or most Asgardians. Loki is quite capable of kicking a man several meters and the Warriors Three can hurl their largest member a dozen meters or so (and he can easily survive the resulting backhand from the Destroyer). Stripped of his power Thor seems about exactly as powerful as a very well built 6'3" human.. I'm pretty sure the electricity from a taser wouldn't affect normal Thor, nor would a bump from van. What I mean to say is that Asgardians don't seem that different from us with their magic stripped.

In a deleted scene, Volstagg pretty casually tilts a car up onto two wheels to retrieve something from under it. Any Asgardian is clearly much stronger and tougher than a human. Odin had to do more than take the power that made Thor stronger than other Asgardians; he had to bring him down to human.

I don't think Loki was physically present in that teaser; he was more "inside Selvig's head", seeing and hearing what Selvig saw and heard and influencing Selvig's behavior.

Wandering around imperceptible, such as when he goes to see Thor is a demonstrated ability so I'd be far more inclined to believe he was simply pulling that trick than mentally jacking into Selvig.

Except that doesn't explain why Loki has to go through what looks like a rather rough ride through a Tesseract-generated portal to get to Earth at the beginning of The Avengers. In your scenario, he's already on Earth.

That part is easy, by taking the Tesseract portal he was taken physically straight into the room it was in. Much easier than trying to somehow fight his way in.

[Batman]

Um-Loki is no slouch at mind manipulation so why, exactly, would he have to fight his way in, if he were already physically present on Midgard??

[Simon_Jester]

Except that doesn't explain why Loki has to go through what looks like a rather rough ride through a Tesseract-generated portal to get to Earth at the beginning of The Avengers. In your scenario, he's already on Earth.

It may not actually be the Tesseract that's involved, come to think of it. Before he ever lays hands on the thing, it's implied that he has 'secret ways' to let frost giants into Asgard and to travel the worlds himself, including whatever method he uses to escape after being stranded in space after his fight with Thor.

The resemblance to Tesseract portals may be a coincidence.

[Terralthra]

Except that doesn't explain why Loki has to go through what looks like a rather rough ride through a Tesseract-generated portal to get to Earth at the beginning of The Avengers. In your scenario, he's already on Earth.

It may not actually be the Tesseract that's involved, come to think of it. Before he ever lays hands on the thing, it's implied that he has 'secret ways' to let frost giants into Asgard and to travel the worlds himself, including whatever method he uses to escape after being stranded in space after his fight with Thor.

The resemblance to Tesseract portals may be a coincidence.

The portal that was generated into the SHIELD facility was shown on-screen coming from the Tesseract. Did you watch the movie?

[Replicant]

Um-Loki is no slouch at mind manipulation so why, exactly, would he have to fight his way in, if he were already physically present on Midgard??

Without his glowstick of destiny vaguely controls one guy to get him to say something he probably would have said anyway. His stick is more effective but requires getting in really close and I wouldnt give him good odds to get all the way into the basement of a facility he is not privy to the location of anyway.

[Batman]

He managed to manipulate Thor and Odin's wife not to mention his biological father and his minions just fine before he ever got ahold of that glowstick.

[Simon_Jester]

The portal that was generated into the SHIELD facility was shown on-screen coming from the Tesseract. Did you watch the movie?

Excuse me, I thought for some reason that people were speaking of something that happened before the beginning of Avengers. I was mistaken.

[Lusankya]

Well, there's no reason that Loki had to stay on Midgard for the entirety of the time between the end of Thor and the beginning of Avengers. And it could be that the cube gives of some kind of magical interference that makes it difficult for him to use his normal teleportation methods accurately.

My pet theory is that Loki deliberately made a huge entry into the SHIELD base once he started his plan at the beginning of The Avengers because he thought it's what Thor would do. His whole "plan", such as it was, was basically find ways to show off his martial prowess, because he has this idea that that's the thing that makes everyone love Thor more than him. Thor is a warrior, Thor is beloved by Midgard. Clearly if Loki can prove himself to be a strong warrior, and have the people of Midgard worship him like they do Thor, then Odin will love him just as much as he loves Thor.

That also explains why he doesn't just gain control of Midgard by just manipulating all the world heads of state. It's not the throne he wants - what he wants is to feel that Odin loves him as much as he loves Thor. That was, I think, just about his only honest line in the entire Thor movie, I think, apart from when he was having a melt down at Odin about being a Frost Giant. Now, Odin does love Loki very much, by Loki doesn't realise this, because of all his ANGST, and has instead decided to come up with all sorts of new and exciting ways to be more Thor-like so as to become worthy of Odin's love, and all the while completely misunderstanding what kind of guy Thor is.

[Alkaloid]

I thought it was pretty clearly established in the film that one of Lokis primary motivations for doing things was that he was a diva and wanted to be seen doing whatever it was he was doing. We know Heimdall can see what's happening on earth, so presumably once Loki is there Heimdall can see him, I imagine that's how Thor pinpointed his location to the degree where he could land on the jet to abduct him. From there it's not hard to see his reasoning being 'fuck it, when I do this my cover is blown anyway so I might as well make it good' and using the tesseract to bust onto earth as opposed to taking his usual sneakier and presumably Heimdall invisible path.

[Lusankya]

He is a diva, yes, but he chooses a specific way of being a diva which is directly in opposition to his own skills. He could be rather open about conquering the world using his magic. Instead, he goes for a less effective "warlike" option, because that fits in with his own (incorrect) view of what Thor is like.

[Simon_Jester]

I think you're right about that being part of it. Some other things that may contribute-

-Loki's old methods failed him badly last time he made a bid for power. Maybe he's trying something new because of that.
-Loki may have had to make bargains with the Chitauri after he escaped from being flung into space in his fight with Thor, just to secure his own survival. His decisions could be distorted by the consequences of those bargains.
-Loki feels resentment against the 'lower orders' for various reasons. Thor, when cast out, reacted with nobility. Loki does not, and he starts taking out his anger on Earth with violence and cruelty. That helps to explain his rants about how humans are inferior creatures (which sort of works for him until missiles show up), or about how the Incredible Hulk is inferior (which doesn't work).