Vorlons/Shadows vs Borg

[brianeyci]

Working with them does not mean they handed over the critical piece of technology. In fact Janeway made it explicitly clear that they would NOT hand it over until they were clear of borg space, even though she and Tuvok were working in the middle of the cube.

How the hell did they clear Borg space, I don't remember Scorpion II.

Like creationists try and use the idea/desire to believe as proof that they're right?

Fine, the "Borg can figure shit out" is retarded, I concede that point.

That the collective could NOT figure it out. The collective doesn't figure anything out for themselves. They only take from others.

The collective would remember the experience of S. 8472. At the very least, if they could not create the technology themselves, they would send thirty cubes and take it from the Feds if the need was that dire.

I do so love the way you assume the borg will change their entire nature just because you need them to do so to win an argument.

Fine, but if the need was dire, the Borg would go to Fed space and take the technology.

Not canon. I don't have the scripts either but I do know that they never mentioned anything about distributing nanoprobes with phasers in Scorpion and when they encountered the 8472 base that was planning to infiltrate Fed HQ, they armed the torpedos but not phasers.

We'll see then.

Your argument is dependent on the assumption that Holodoc's ability to think of how to mimic 8472's immune system translates into the collective's ability to mimic any immune system. Thats how you justify being able to mimic species 'x' in totally unrelated sci-fi series 'y'.

Too bad, if you have been paying attention my argument has been directed at idiots who think that just because the Borg were unable to assimilate S. 8472 they would have a problem with the Shadows/Vorlons immune system. It goes both fucking ways, if they want a logicially consistent position they have to accept that S. 8472 was able to be assimilated. The best thing to do is leave assimilation out of it except for the YR, just like transporters are usually left out because there are too many unknown variables. I'm not betting on this nanoprobe idea on working, I'm just pointing it out to dipshits who insist S. 8472 means the Borg lose.

No. YOU are conviently ignoring that there is no canon evidence that Voyager ever turned over the technology to the collective. Later on you even cry out "who fucking cares" on this point.

I was not ignoring it, first I thought that they DID give the technology to the collective, then I thought they would be able to reverse-engineer the idea from what they had. It was moronic. But how do you counter the point that they would send cubes to Federation territory if the technology was so needed? Remember that there is a transwarp conduit to Earth now, and if we assume the Borg at full fighting strength they would be able to crush the Feds.

You don't need to scan a ship to know where it is. Londo knew where the shadows were stationed on Centauri Prime the old fashioned way. Emperor Cartagia told him precisely where they were. The avoided shadow spies by sending in ground forces at night that were already on the planets surface.

Someone's already mentioned that Londo directed his guards to fire on the Shadows.

And while the borg are wasting those months/years, the Vorlons/Shadows are bombing borg worlds into dust.

I've never actually heard of this "assimilation cloud" before. Could you provide some details?

Didn't watch the episode eh. I don't blame you. It was one of those retarded mothering episodes with SoN talking to Borg Queen. Borg Queen was talking about how the humans were highly resistant, and how they would use the assimilation cloud and how she wanted Seven to help design it.

And yet borg weapons didn't even dent the 8472 ship that was obliterated by a low impact with a cube that was far less than megaton range.

That's news to me. Then that's just a new low-end estimate. The theory is sound, 30k TW phasers are directly from DW's site, and 12 megatons is directly from Brian Young's site. At best, ten seconds for a cube to kill a Shadow crab, at worst less than a few seconds. Also from taking 0.1 KT torpedoes, at best one crab concentrating its firepower for a few seconds, at worst a fleet of crabs. The best case scenario for the V/S is that the Vorlons/Shadows are on par with the Borg tactically, with the Vorlons/Shadows on top strategically because of hyperspace. The worst case scenario for the V/S is that the Borg totally outclass the Vorlons/Shadows tactically, and the Vorlons/Shadows are outmaneuvered strategically because they need to protect the YR. The range for Borg weapons and shields are low megaton to low gigaton, and the range for S/V weapons and shields are high kiloton to low megaton. You have to take all the evidence into account, not just point at one counterexample and declare victory for a particular side. 30k TW phasers and 12 MT Shadow shields are from respected personas, and I trust their authority.

You don't think its important to have evidence that the borg have a given piece of technology?

We NEVER saw the crew of Voyager hand over the technology to the borg.

Fine. They go to Federation territory and assimilate the Feds. Since the Vorlons and Shadows get to put aside their little philosophical war which has lasted thousands of years, the Borg get to put aside their war with the Feds somehow. We take the Borg after they've assimilated the AQ, or at least the Federation.

Brian

[brianeyci]

at least it shows the Shadow can be killed quite easily, providing you have an idea of where they are.

Kosh had telekenetic abilities either built into his suit or in his suit, and I believe we've seen some kind of energy weapon. He was surrounded by four or five Shadows, but if he wanted to he could have made a run for it to his bioship and survived. He must have sacrificed himself, declared himself a maverick to take the blame for the attack on the Shadow ships by Vorlon fighters.

Brian

[SirNitram]

How the hell did they clear Borg space, I don't remember Scorpion II.

The Fuglies ran away. Confronted with a weapon that could actually inflict casualties, they fled en mass and weren't heard from again until we ran into a stranded one and a few operating an infiltration setup.

The Borg's big enemy was a paper tiger, as has been repeatedly driven home.

[brianeyci]

The Fuglies ran away. Confronted with a weapon that could actually inflict casualties, they fled en mass and weren't heard from again until we ran into a stranded one and a few operating an infiltration setup.

The Borg's big enemy was a paper tiger, as has been repeatedly driven home.

No I mean Voyager. I thought Janeway worked out a deal to hand over the nanoprobe technology in exchange for transwarp or something.

Brian

[SirNitram]

The Fuglies ran away. Confronted with a weapon that could actually inflict casualties, they fled en mass and weren't heard from again until we ran into a stranded one and a few operating an infiltration setup.

The Borg's big enemy was a paper tiger, as has been repeatedly driven home.

No I mean Voyager. I thought Janeway worked out a deal to hand over the nanoprobe technology in exchange for transwarp or something.

Janeway, at no point, ever, gave them the nanoprobes, or offered them. She was adamant about not handing them over.. Only smart thing she ever did.

[Darth Servo]

How the hell did they clear Borg space, I don't remember Scorpion II.

Behold:

All remaining bio-ships in the Delta Quadrant are returning to their realm.

8472 ran away. Not destroyed.

The collective would remember the experience of S. 8472. At the very least, if they could not create the technology themselves, they would send thirty cubes and take it from the Feds if the need was that dire.

Like they remembered that the one cube in BOBW wasn't sufficient and so sent a fleet in First Contact? Oh wait...

Fine, but if the need was dire, the Borg would go to Fed space and take the technology.

IOW, assume that the borg can and will do what ever is needed to win even if its not in their character.

Too bad, if you have been paying attention my argument has been directed at idiots who think that just because the Borg were unable to assimilate S. 8472 they would have a problem with the Shadows/Vorlons immune system.

8472 gives us our one and only example of borg vs biotech and the borg were impotent against it.

It goes both fucking ways, if they want a logicially consistent position they have to accept that S. 8472 was able to be assimilated.

No we don't since it never happened.

The best thing to do is leave assimilation out of it except for the YR, just like transporters are usually left out because there are too many unknown variables. I'm not betting on this nanoprobe idea on working, I'm just pointing it out to dipshits who insist S. 8472 means the Borg lose.

Too bad the dipshit posting that S8472 was assimilated is dead wrong on that matter.

But how do you counter the point that they would send cubes to Federation territory if the technology was so needed?

When did they ever do that before?

Remember that there is a transwarp conduit to Earth now,

Wasn't it destroyed in Endgame?

and if we assume the Borg at full fighting strength they would be able to crush the Feds.

And we assume they actually use their brains (a reather large leap of faith to be sure.

Someone's already mentioned that Londo directed his guards to fire on the Shadows.

And as I already pointed out, Londo din't know exactly where the shadows were. Of the two guards who fired, one hit nothing but the decorations.

Borg Queen was talking about how the humans were highly resistant, and how they would use the assimilation cloud and how she wanted Seven to help design it.

IOW, the thing doesn't actually exist.

[Darth Servo]

No I mean Voyager. I thought Janeway worked out a deal to hand over the nanoprobe technology in exchange for transwarp or something.

The original deal was to give the borg the nanoprobes after Voy was clear of borg space.

At the end of Scorpion, when 8472 had turned tail, the borg try and double-cross Voy and assimilate them. But janeway pulled a trick of her own separating 7 of 9 from the collective.

You think Janeway is going to hand over the tech after that?

[Rye]

at least it shows the Shadow can be killed quite easily, providing you have an idea of where they are.

Prove it was killed, it just appeared to dance in a pained manner, more than anything. Knocking it unconscious should've prevented it from transmitting a telepathic signal to warn the ships.

Too bad, if you have been paying attention my argument has been directed at idiots who think that just because the Borg were unable to assimilate S. 8472 they would have a problem with the Shadows/Vorlons immune system. It goes both fucking ways, if they want a logicially consistent position they have to accept that S. 8472 was able to be assimilated.

Considering it going "both ways" means the Borg are going to need some new character come do their work for them, like the holodoc did. They were unable to assimilate S8472 till Voyager came along and found out a way to do it, who's going to come along and help them do it this time?

30k TW phasers and 12 MT Shadow shields are from respected personas, and I trust their authority.

Just a question, when have we seen Borg ships engage ships at ranges the shadows have engaged at? It's a simple variable that you don't seem to have taken into account, it's all very well saying a 10 second continuous blast or whatever from a borg ship will fuck up a battlecrab, but how will it get close enough? FOs wouldn't have to go to dangerous distances, just pelt them from afar.

[Batman]

30k TW phasers and 12 MT Shadow shields are from respected personas, and I trust their authority.

I like it how you keep using the 30PW figure when it's clear that
a) that one is almost certainly based on 64MT torpedoes, and
b) is against shields (AQ shields, at that), which the Shadows don't have, as opposed to against hull material.

[brianeyci]

I like it how you keep using the 30PW figure when it's clear that
a) that one is almost certainly based on 64MT torpedoes, and

Too bad Batman, almost certainly but not quite, fucking read the page.

The energy absorption capability of Federation shields is roughly 1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation (small wonder that Picard was contemptuous of laser-armed vessels in "The Outrageous Okona"), as described in the shielding analysis. We know that phasers can penetrate shields of this type within 5 seconds of continuous firing, so phasers must be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons, or 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. This is consistent with their performance relative to photon torpedoes; since photon torpedoes release perhaps 24 megatons of energy at the target (with the rest being wasted in inefficiencies or directed away from the ship), so it would take less than 3 seconds for a phaser beam to deliver more energy than a maximum-yield photon torpedo.

Read that Batman. Nowhere does DW say he derives the 30k TW figure from the 24 megaton torpedo, he just says that the 30k TW figure is consistent with the 24 megaton torpedo figure. In fact, if you read his shielding analysis page linked straight from that paragraph, you see that DW used no less than 34 different sources in coming up with the 30k TW figure based on shield penetration in five seconds.

b) is against shields (AQ shields, at that), which the Shadows don't have, as opposed to against hull material.

Too bad, I don't buy the don't have shields line yet. It looks like energy absorbtion and dissipation, but a hull hugging shield could do that too. Just because we don't hear "shields up" doesn't mean they're not there. Either there are hull hugging shields, or there are not. Trust me you don't want to give the Borg the tactical advantage of being able to beam pieces of ship into nothingness, or beam nanoprobes straight into the ship or into people's bodies. The Vorlon/Shadow ships have shields.

And if I sound pissed off I am. I should be studying right now rather than responding to some silly pointless debate. Plus I really, really don't want to spend half an hour replying to those huge posts.

Brian

[brianeyci]

And you keep mentioning "hull material". That's a fucking strawman.

Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range.

He mentions Federation hull material, which is composed of "heavy transuranium elements". What is the Vorlon/Shadow hull material composed of?

"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

Vorlon and Shadow ships lose shields, bye bye.

Brian

[18-Till-I-Die]

Have the Borg ever, EVER been able to beam nanoprobes into people? Or beam ships parts away, shields or not? Now maybe they have, i oubt it but if you have evidence then i'd accept it, but lets not start down the path of transporter wanking. I could see them transporting a nuke or an AM charge into a ship, IF they can, but lets not assume, because you know what happens when we assume.

[brianeyci]

Have the Borg ever, EVER been able to beam nanoprobes into people? Or beam ships parts away, shields or not? Now maybe they have, i oubt it but if you have evidence then i'd accept it, but lets not start down the path of transporter wanking. I could see them transporting a nuke or an AM charge into a ship, IF they can, but lets not assume, because you know what happens when we assume.

Of course. But I accept that the Vorlons and Shadow ships have shields, so I don't have to assume shit. It looks like energy absorption and dissipation, and if we assume that physics in the B5 universe are consistent with the physics in the Trek universe, then the way it looks it looks like a hull hugging shield.

Brian

[Batman]

I like it how you keep using the 30PW figure when it's clear that
a) that one is almost certainly based on 64MT torpedoes, and

Too bad Batman, almost certainly but not quite, fucking read the page.

The energy absorption capability of Federation shields is roughly 1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation (small wonder that Picard was contemptuous of laser-armed vessels in "The Outrageous Okona"), as described in the shielding analysis. We know that phasers can penetrate shields of this type within 5 seconds of continuous firing, so phasers must be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons, or 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. This is consistent with their performance relative to photon torpedoes; since photon torpedoes release perhaps 24 megatons of energy at the target (with the rest being wasted in inefficiencies or directed away from the ship), so it would take less than 3 seconds for a phaser beam to deliver more energy than a maximum-yield photon torpedo.

Tell me again how that estimate is NOT bases on 64 MT torpedoes.

Read that Batman. Nowhere does DW say he derives the 30k TW figure from the 24 megaton torpedo, he just says that the 30k TW figure is consistent with the 24 megaton torpedo figure.

You're kidding, right?

b) is against shields (AQ shields, at that), which the Shadows don't have, as opposed to against hull material.

Too bad, I don't buy the don't have shields line yet. It looks like energy absorbtion and dissipation, but a hull hugging shield could do that too.

Why don't you show they HAVE hull-hugging shields, then.

Just because we don't hear "shields up" doesn't mean they're not there. Either there are hull hugging shields, or there are not.

And, as far as B5 powers (with the possible exception of other First Ones) there are NOT.

Trust me you don't want to give the Borg the tactical advantage of being able to beam pieces of ship into nothingness,

Which they have never done,

or beam nanoprobes straight into the ship or into people's bodies.

Which they never did either.

The Vorlon/Shadow ships have shields.

In Brianeyciverse maybe.

And if I sound pissed off I am. I should be studying right now rather than responding to some silly pointless debate.

And that is my fault because of what exactly?

Plus I really, really don't want to spend half an hour replying to those huge posts.
Brian

Then don't.

[brianeyci]

Tell me again how that estimate is NOT bases on 64 MT torpedoes.

HOLY SHIT can't you fucking read, DW says it right there, "it is consistent with 24 megaton torpedoes" not that he based the figure from 24 megaton or even 64 MT torpedoes. Click on the shield analysis link right from that paragraph, he uses 34 different sources all canonical.

You're kidding, right?

No you need to learn how to read.

Why don't you show they HAVE hull-hugging shields, then.

I don't have to show that they have hull-hugging shields. Either they have shields or they don't. We have insufficient data to conclude either way. However from what we do know of biology, "dense" organic armor is an oxymoron. And if we are to have these two universes meet up, then the physics of both universes are consistent. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the Vorlons and Shadows have shields, because it looks exactly like a hull hugging shield.

And, as far as B5 powers (with the possible exception of other First Ones) there are NOT.

Too bad they have shields.

Which they have never done,

Sure, but they have the capability to, unless you want to claim that a Borg cube can beam less material than a BOP.

Which they never did either.

They've never fought a race using organic ships without shields, which you claim (which I do not accept).

And that is my fault because of what exactly?

Its not.

Then don't.

Maybe I won't, if you keep being boneheaded and disputing the 30 TW figure.

Brian

[Batman]

And you keep mentioning "hull material". That's a fucking strawman.

Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range.

Mind to provide a link, as this doesn't mention the word at all?

He mentions Federation hull material, which is composed of "heavy transuranium elements".

Blatant lie. He mentions that Transuranium elements are a severe detriment to NDF, NOT that Fed hulls are composed of it. One would venture that heavy Transuranium elements are a part of Fed hulls the same way that Neutronium is of Imp ones.

"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."
"What can you tell me about it?"
"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"
"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"
"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."
"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"
SQUISH...

Thank you for COMPLETELY IGNORING B5 canon. For the record, I AGREE that this is what ought to REALISTICALLY happen. HOWEVER, and that is what I very much suspect caused Mike to bring up that Brain Bug in the first place, in B5 bioships are canonically WAY more resistant to weapons than metal ones are.

Vorlon and Shadow ships lo

se shields, bye bye.

Too bad there's no evidence they have any.

[Batman]

Tell me again how that estimate is NOT bases on 64 MT torpedoes.

HOLY SHIT can't you fucking read, DW says it right there, "it is consistent with 24 megaton torpedoes" not that he based the figure from 24 megaton or even 64 MT torpedoes. Click on the shield analysis link right from that paragraph, he uses 34 different sources all canonical.

OK, as you seem to be among the intelectually challenged-As he assumes 30 PW phasers is consistent with 24 MT PTs, he BY definition assumes 24 Mt torpedoes are valid!!! Seriously, how stupid can a single human get?

Why don't you show they HAVE hull-hugging shields, then.

I don't have to show that they have hull-hugging shields.

Yes you do.

Either they have shields or they don't. We have insufficient data to conclude either way.

IOW, you're ASSUMING they do because it happens to serve your agenda.

However from what we do know of biology, "dense" organic armor is an oxymoron.

Pure garbage.

And if we are to have these two universes meet up, then the physics of both universes are consistent. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the Vorlons and Shadows have shields,

Despite there being NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER...

because it looks exactly like a hull hugging shield.

What an incredibly convincing argument.

And, as far as B5 powers (with the possible exception of other First Ones) there are NOT.

Too bad they have shields.

As evidenced by WHAT EXACTLY, apart from your almost Walperish delusions about the Borg HAVING to be uber?

Which they have never done,

Sure, but they have the capability to, unless you want to claim that a Borg cube can beam less material than a BOP.

Wether or not they CAN is irrelevant. Show that they WILL. Hell, show that they are LIKELY TO.

[brianeyci]

Mind to provide a link, as this doesn't mention the word at all?

Holy fuck guy. Its in the "Phasers" section under technology.

Phasers are extremely effective for planetary bombardment and asteroid mining activities. Against shields, phasers appear to be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons and 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range. Since 30,000 to 40,000 TW is equivalent to, at best, a handful of small point-defense turbolaser batteries, this should not present a serious threat to our large capital ships unless the enemy starships are able to attack repeatedly over a long period of time without being destroyed (note that this comparison is based on the most conservative available numbers). However, we expect that these "phasers" will be extremely dangerous for starfighters or light vessels and our fighters may experience heavy but strategically acceptable losses in fleet combat.

There. Not that I haven't quoted the paragraph in its entirety before.

Blatant lie. He mentions that Transuranium elements are a severe detriment to NDF, NOT that Fed hulls are composed of it. One would venture that heavy Transuranium elements are a part of Fed hulls the same way that Neutronium is of Imp ones.

Another red herring, the Neutronium issue is a totally different issue that you bring in to distract from the main point. And the main point is that,

Phasers appear to be much less effective against armor than they are against shields. The TM states that 2.4TJ is sufficient to vaporize one cubic metre of tritanium which is used in starship hulls, so if phasers were equivalent to 30,000 TW of EM radiation they would vaporize 12,500 cubic metres of Federation tritanium starship armor every second! This obviously doesn't happen- phasers appear to destroy less than 5 cubic metres of starship armor per second of continuous impact, so they seem to be tactically equivalent to 1-10 TW lasers. This is undoubtedly due to the negative impact of heavy transuranium elements on the NDF chain reaction.

This entire paragraph is obviously fucking talking about Federation hull material, that last sentence is right in the paragraph about Federation hull material you ass. Who's the liar now you dick, he's obviously saying that there are heavy transuranium elements in Federation hulls which cause phasers to be equivalent to 1-10 TW. Vorlon/Shadow ships don't have Federation hull material. They apparently do have shields though.

Thank you for COMPLETELY IGNORING B5 canon. For the record, I AGREE that this is what ought to REALISTICALLY happen. HOWEVER, and that is what I very much suspect caused Mike to bring up that Brain Bug in the first place, in B5 bioships are canonically WAY more resistant to weapons than metal ones are.

Too bad we can't ignore everything we know about biology for the stupid tough organic armor hypothesis. However, we can keep what we know about biology and be consistent if we say the Vorlon/Shadow ships have shields, because we are having the Trek and B5 universes interact so shields are a given.

Too bad there's no evidence they have any.

Sure there is, you just don't want to see it. It looks like energy absorption and dissipation, it looks like a hull hugging shield, it is a hull hugging shield if we are comparing both universes together. Where is your evidence that it is not a hull-hugging shield hrm? It is no more logical for the ship to have hull hugging shields than not to have hull hugging shields, however in this vs we are comparing two universes together so if it looks like a hull hugging shield, it is since in Trek hull hugging shields look like that.

Brian

[Batman]

Mind to provide a link, as this doesn't mention the word at all?

Holy fuck guy. Its in the "Phasers" section under technology.

Phasers are extremely effective for planetary bombardment and asteroid mining activities. Against shields, phasers appear to be tactically equivalent to 300 TW plasma cannons and 30,000 to 40,000 TW laser cannons. Against dense armor, phasers appear to be much weaker, in the 1-10TW range. Since 30,000 to 40,000 TW is equivalent to, at best, a handful of small point-defense turbolaser batteries, this should not present a serious threat to our large capital ships unless the enemy starships are able to attack repeatedly over a long period of time without being destroyed (note that this comparison is based on the most conservative available numbers). However, we expect that these "phasers" will be extremely dangerous for starfighters or light vessels and our fighters may experience heavy but strategically acceptable losses in fleet combat.

There. Not that I haven't quoted the paragraph in its entirety before.

Thank you. I'll admit outright I didn't check beyond the link I gave. You win.

Blatant lie. He mentions that Transuranium elements are a severe detriment to NDF, NOT that Fed hulls are composed of it. One would venture that heavy Transuranium elements are a part of Fed hulls the same way that Neutronium is of Imp ones.

Another red herring, the Neutronium issue is a totally different issue that you bring in to distract from the main point. And the main point is that,

Phasers appear to be much less effective against armor than they are against shields. The TM states that 2.4TJ is sufficient to vaporize one cubic metre of tritanium which is used in starship hulls, so if phasers were equivalent to 30,000 TW of EM radiation they would vaporize 12,500 cubic metres of Federation tritanium starship armor every second! This obviously doesn't happen- phasers appear to destroy less than 5 cubic metres of starship armor per second of continuous impact, so they seem to be tactically equivalent to 1-10 TW lasers. This is undoubtedly due to the negative impact of heavy transuranium elements on the NDF chain reaction.

This entire paragraph is obviously fucking talking about Federation hull material, that last sentence is right in the paragraph about Federation hull material you ass. Who's the liar now you dick, he's obviously saying that there are heavy transuranium elements in Federation hulls which cause phasers to be equivalent to 1-10 TW. Vorlon/Shadow ships don't have Federation hull material.

I could argue that this is based on the now-defunct TNG TM but as I myself did use the TM-dervied 1-10 TM figure that would be extremely unfair.
Thankfully, I do not need to.
Evidence of there NOT being transuranium elements in Vorlon/Shadow hulls,
evidence of them being NEEDED to degrade phaser efficiency (which is negated by TOS, IIRC 'Delaan Of Troius', where a [silicon' base creature neede phaser recalibration to be effected)...

They apparently do have shields though.

In your fevered imagination.

Thank you for COMPLETELY IGNORING B5 canon. For the record, I AGREE that this is what ought to REALISTICALLY happen. HOWEVER, and that is what I very much suspect caused Mike to bring up that Brain Bug in the first place, in B5 bioships are canonically WAY more resistant to weapons than metal ones are.

Too ba we can't ignore everything we know about biology for the stupid tough organic armor hypothesis.

Actually, yes we can. That's what SoD is all about.

However, we can keep what we know about biology and be consistent if we say the Vorlon/Shadow ships have shields,

For which there is no evidence whatsoever,

because we are having the Trek and B5 universes interact so shields are a given.

For Trek.

Too bad there's no evidence they have any.

Sure there is, you just don't want to see it. It looks like energy absorption and dissipation, it looks like a hull hugging shield, it is a hull hugging shield if we are comparing both universes together.

Because of your say-so? I rather think not.

Where is your evidence that it is not a hull-hugging shield hrm?

Okay, just for the record- is it me or are you asking me to prove a negative?

It is no more logical for the ship to have hull hugging shields than not to have hull hugging shields, however in this vs we are comparing two universes together so if it looks like a hull hugging shield, it is since in Trek hull hugging shields look like that.

Do you REALLY think thatt's a viable point?
And here I thought your 'prove the E-nil can pitch' approach was stupid...

[brianeyci]

OK, as you seem to be among the intelectually challenged-As he assumes 30 PW phasers is consistent with 24 MT PTs, he BY definition assumes 24 Mt torpedoes are valid!!! Seriously, how stupid can a single human get?

WHAT A FUCKING MORON I link you directly to the page where DW used 34 different sources to estimate the 30k TW figure and you still don't get it. Do you want me to explain what he did you asshole? He took "1500 TJ against charged-particle weapons, and 150,000 to 200,000 TJ against EM radiation" WHICH HE GOT FROM AN INDEPTH ANALYSIS OF 34 DIFFERENT SOURCES and then got the 200k TJ figure, then divided by five seconds to lower a Fed ship's shields get 30k TW to 40K TW figure. And don't you dare start using the fucking 1500 TJ figure now that I've explained it to you, your whole moronic argument has been that DW based the 30k TW figure on torpedo yield, which is false. Who cares if DW thinks the 24 megaton value is valid or not valid in that paragraph, HE DID NOT DERVIE THE 30K TW FIREPOWER FIGURE FROM THE 24 MEGATON TORPEDO FIGURE you ass, as you have kept saying despite me trying to subtly point out your stupidity to you. Now that I have spelled it out crystal clear, will you concede the point or keep being an ass.

Yes you do.

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields, and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

IOW, you're ASSUMING they do because it happens to serve your agenda.

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields, and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

Pure garbage.

You accusing me to be a LIAR and bringing up red herrings like Neutronium and continually disuputing the 30k TW figure is garbage.

Despite there being NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER...

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields, and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

because it looks exactly like a hull hugging shield.

What an incredibly convincing argument.

That's what we do in sci-fi debating, look at the visuals dick.

As evidenced by WHAT EXACTLY, apart from your almost Walperish delusions about the Borg HAVING to be uber?

And your insistence of the Vorlons and Shadows not having shields is because? Is your insistence on them not having shields because you don't want the 30k TW figure to be valid? You only brought up their lack of shields after I brought up the first point, as if the entire argument is based on them not having shields and therefore the Borg have 1-10 TW firepower, despite the Vorlons/Shadows not having dense armor. Okay, try it your way. They don't have shields. Ignore transporters for a moment and ignore the fact that they look like shields. What do we get?

1. In general, carbon-based life forms should be easy to disintegrate because they are dominated by hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen (atomic numbers 1, 6, and 8 respectively), and light elements like this are probably very susceptible to the NDF chain reaction. Silicates and silicon-based life forms should be more difficult to disintegrate.

So, phasers should be able to disintegrate organic armor easily. And no, NDF theory is not entirely refuted by two episodes of S. 8472, S. 8472 was an anomaly and I can show that S. 8472 had hull hugging shields you dickhead.

Wether or not they CAN is irrelevant. Show that they WILL. Hell, show that they are LIKELY TO.

That's the first smart thing you said this post. Fine, point conceded ignore transporters, transporters are rarely used as a tactical alternative anyway.

Brian

[Nephilim]

didn't Londo have his guards shoot (and kill) Mr.Morden's Shadow companions?

That's the scene I've always wondered about. How did Londo figure out how to scan for cloaked Shadows? He's not an engineer or a scientist, Londo would have to have gotten help, and anyone he asked might have betrayed him to the Shadows or Shadows themselves might have been lurking by. He must have asked for help from someone in his house, who wouldn't betray him, but how would he be sure that Shadows weren't watching while the device was being constructed?

Brian

He didn't know that they were there, he was guessing as he knew that Shadows always travelled with Morden. The Shadows also survived the weapon blasts because when a Shadow dies it lets out a beam of light similar to the one that Kosh let out when he himself died, this didn't happen on Centauri Prime.

[brianeyci]

The Shadows also survived the weapon blasts because when a Shadow dies it lets out a beam of light similar to the one that Kosh let out when he himself died, this didn't happen on Centauri Prime.

Where does this come from?

Brian

[Nephilim]

Too bad, if you have been paying attention my argument has been directed at idiots who think that just because the Borg were unable to assimilate S. 8472 they would have a problem with the Shadows/Vorlons immune system. It goes both fucking ways, if they want a logicially consistent position they have to accept that S. 8472 was able to be assimilated. The best thing to do is leave assimilation out of it except for the YR, just like transporters are usually left out because there are too many unknown variables. I'm not betting on this nanoprobe idea on working, I'm just pointing it out to dipshits who insist S. 8472 means the Borg lose.

In the case of the Shadows, who even says that the Borg would be able to assimilate them when the Shadows themselves have nano-technology to use to combat the Borg nano-probes? From the Technomage trilogy when know that the Technomages use nano-technology to heal themselves, called organelles which are capable of regenerating entire limbs as well as providing a significant boost to their immune system. Technomage tech IS Shadow technology on its most basic level that was given to Ancient Technomages (a race known as the Taramitude) to spread chaos. The Shadows would also have the ability to use this technology and it is suggested in the Technomage trilogy that what we see of the Shadows is an encounter suit similar to that used by the Vorlons. The Borg would have to get through their phasing abilities, their defense systems (which if similar to the Tech of the Technomages means that they can use Shadow bio-armor over themselves) plus a multitude of weaponry that can be called upon with a single thought.

The Vorlons have their encounter suits themselves which are also very tough, and since the Shadows are actually weaker one on one against a Vorlon (three Shadows killed Kosh, and he ALLOWED himself to be killed, he did not fight back) then assimilation of a First One by the Borg becomes a very hard prospect.

[Nephilim]

The Shadows also survived the weapon blasts because when a Shadow dies it lets out a beam of light similar to the one that Kosh let out when he himself died, this didn't happen on Centauri Prime.

Where does this come from?

Brian

The beam of light being let out when a Shadow dies is from the Technomage trilogy. Also, i believe JMS clarified in one of his usernet postings saying that the Shadows actually bolted out of there when they were attacked, possibly to warn their ships of what was about to happen.

[Rye]

There's a massive problem with what you're saying, brian, in ACTA, the excalibur or victory or whatever ship it is they're using to test fire on that asteroid, is stated to have a hull that does the reflection/refraction, i forget which, of the weapon energy directed to it. Hull property, right there, likely based on the same thing the Vorlons did on the white stars.

There is no evidence either way that the Vorlons or the Shadows have shields, and if we compare the two universes we use WYSIWYG, the energy absorption and dissipation looks like shields so for all intensive purposes it is shields.

When you say stuff like this and the following reasoning, you're conflating 2 seperate concepts, that of something merely having energy-redirection defensive properties, being an extra "shield" to deal with energy weapons compared to a more normal hull, AND the concept that shields can be battered down to make ships go splat because you think they should. There is NOTHING to prove this, ergo, YOU MADE IT UP. Shadow/vorlon "shields" don't fall after bombardment like trek projected barriers, they're merely a property of the hull, much as electrical conductivity is a property of the metals inside your computer.

This is sort of like the opposite of the vs etiquette, where the idea that the different concepts at work in the seperate universes don't work, for instance, culture hyperspace being inaccessible in SW galaxy. This is the polar opposite of that, where in fact you're negating the differences between those universes and they HAVE to abide by trek concepts for some reason.