Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[HemlockGrey]

Right. The T-90 is a wankfest.

Why don't you go tell the Russians that? Be sure to shout out verses from the Quran, carry an assault rifle, and wear lots of Chechen flags...

[Darth Wong]

Samas, there's no point in trying anymore. Shep and the rest is just gonna sit here and go la,la,la ground pressure la,la,la,la mechs suck the whole time. No one intended this to be a debate.

And your side is doing its damndest to make sure it won't become one, since you lose a straight-up debate. That's why you suddenly start talking about all manner of backup, naval support, massive 240m long warships hovering over the battlefield, nuclear weapons, etc.

It was supposed to be a tanker wankfest. It is kinda sad when grown men need to set up a completely unfair situation just to prove that there beloved tanks are better than mechs.

Pot calling the kettle black, I'm afraid. Look at SAMAS bragging about all the techno-masturbatory toys he wants to introduce into the battle in order to save his precious poorly-conceived mechs from destruction. Fancy jam-anything particles, flash cannons, floating battleships, who's the wanker here, hmmm?

I am the first to admit mechs don't make any logical combat sense, but when you use that one point to say that mechs that repetedly blow away faster more manueverable and heavier armed tanks than the T-90's are inferior its just stupid.

And your evidence for this is ... ?

[Darth Wong]

"Nuclear weapons were specitically banned by the Antactic treaty, after the first week of the war wiped out half the population of the Earth Sphere. Entire Sides(clusters of Space Colonies stationed at the LaGrange points in orbit) were reduced to floating masses of debris by nuclear exchanges, and whole colonies were depopulated by gas attacks."

OK, so you have a quote alluding to nuclear weapons being very dangerous. Do you have any other stunning pieces of breakthruogh news for us? Perhaps you will discover that the sky is blue. But in the meantime, it is obvious from your own quote that nuclear weapons are VASTLY more powerful than anything normally unleashed on the battlefield in this particular sci-fi universe, so stop trying to introduce yet another red-herring in your desperate attempt to avoid dealing with mech vs tank straight-up.

As stated, there was the prerequisite fireball.

Again, I seriously doubt it. How long did the fireball last? How close were they to the blast? You DO realize that a fireball which lasts for a few seconds isn't even megaton-class, right? As for this incident, you would obviously like to use it to prove that the mech's onboard reactor is some kind of enormously powerful system, but all you've proven is that it carries an unnecessarily large fuel supply and it's designed like shit.

Niether side has naval power in this case.

Good. Then stop trying to introduce your floating 240m long battleships into the equation. If we're comparing mechs to tanks, you shouldn't need to introduce all manner of backup to save your toys.

Yosmite allowed the use of Zeon aircfaft, and that's what it entails. True, that's not what he had in mind, but that's the consequence, and I even admitted to running with it.

You should obviously be using craft similar in size to the Stukas. If I were asked to compare Imperial ground-support aircraft to Russian ground-support aircraft, I would be looking at Republic gunships, not Acclamators hovering at low-altitude. You're just looking for semantic loopholes now; not exactly a testament to the quality of your debating tactics.

[ArmorPierce]

Sometimes it's fun to think that mechs will rule the battle field of the future but it is just not realistic.

[HemlockGrey]

Which is why the universe of The Great Furnace uses hovertanks.

Go read!

/plug

[Vympel]

Mechs have just been owned by:

[MKSheppard]

[quote="Darth Wong"]
Pot calling the kettle black, I'm afraid. Look at SAMAS bragging about all the techno-masturbatory toys he wants to introduce into the battle in order to save his precious poorly-conceived mechs from destruction. Fancy jam-anything particles, flash cannons, floating battleships, who's the wanker here, hmmm?

Best part is he thinks these Minkovosky Particles will save his ass, when all
they do is affect radio waves...not light NOR heat, which means laser
guided weapons and IR guided weapons will still guide and blow the fuck
out of his mecha wankfests.

[MKSheppard]

[MKSheppard]

I don't wish to rehash the same arguments over and over whenever
some new mecha fanwhore comes wandering over to SD.net

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

So... is this thread officially dead?

[MKSheppard]

So... is this thread officially dead?

Since all SAMAS could do was stick to his wankfest explanations, without
concisely explaining HOW the Mecha would be able to detect the T-90s
firing on them from 2km outside their sensor range before their
Mecha started going up in roman candles

[Vejut]

<thread technically dead...I'm just hacking at the corpse...>

In response to [BL] Phoenix: Anyone see any problems with the following, do not hesitate to scream.

Target area comparison:

Tank is 2m tall--63 pixels. Mecha is 328 pixels wide, for 10.41m width, elbow to elbow.

tank, using longer side, is about 7.5m long.

That means the Mecha is approximately 1.388 times the size of the tank, assuming a shot from the side (would do mech side and tank side, to make it more even, except I don't have any info/pics of mech side)

The mecha has a stated speed (calcs on this anyone? If the reactor value is wrong, as is being claimed, then the speed might be as well...) of 240 km/h, vs. a tank speed of 45km/h (offroad, 65km/h on, source is http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/index.html). In other words, the mecha is 1.4 times wider, but 4 times faster.

Triangle long side 5000m long, width 10.41m long... tan^-1(10.41/5000)=0.1192 degree angle (mecha)
Triangle 5000m by 7.5....0.0859 deg.
5000m by (240000/3600)*5...3.8 degrees covered in 5 sec.
tank...5000m by (45000/3600)*5....0.716 degrees covered in 5 sec

mecha moves 33 times it's own width every 5 seconds (assuming no jukes, balls to the wall, and most importantly, that it really does go that fast.), while the tank only moves 8 times it's own length.

IF the mecha actually moves that fast, it does have an advantage. However, not sure how big of one...240 km/h is slow for a helocopter, and I seem to recall Israeli tanks taking down helos with the main gun. And the Russki's love putting missles on their tanks, and handing them out like candy to troopers.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

So... is this thread officially dead?

Since all SAMAS could do was stick to his wankfest explanations, without
concisely explaining HOW the Mecha would be able to detect the T-90s
firing on them from 2km outside their sensor range before their
Mecha started going up in roman candles

Ah well. I like mecha, but I must concede to the overwhelming might of logic.

[Durandal]

Best part is he thinks these Minkovosky Particles will save his ass, when all they do is affect radio waves...not light NOR heat, which means laser guided weapons and IR guided weapons will still guide and blow the fuck out of his mecha wankfests.

Radio waves are light, Shep. Heat is transferred in the form of photons. They're both light, just light at different wavelengths.

[MKSheppard]

Radio waves are light, Shep. Heat is transferred in the form of photons. They're both light, just light at different wavelengths.

Ah, then WTF is the point of Minkovosky particles? They don't even
make sense then!

Unless they only block out specific bands of the EM spectrum

[Darth Wong]

I think it should also be pointed out that they're double-blind. Let's suppose these particles really do block just about everything. A mech which shrouds itself in these silly particles would be blind to the outside world!

It's like a smoke grenade. You don't throw a smoke grenade at your own feet; that blinds you to the entire outside world, while they still have a rough idea of where you are.

And it should also be noted that if these things are moving as quickly as the mech fanboys keep saying, then the particles will be useless because they'll be leaving them behind as they move. It's handy to drop chaff behind you if someone's on your tail, but it's pretty damned useless when you're advancing on someone.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I think it should also be pointed out that they're double-blind. Let's suppose these particles really do block just about everything. A mech which shrouds itself in these silly particles would be blind to the outside world!

It's like a smoke grenade. You don't throw a smoke grenade at your own feet; that blinds you to the entire outside world, while they still have a rough idea of where you are.

And it should also be noted that if these things are moving as quickly as the mech fanboys keep saying, then the particles will be useless because they'll be leaving them behind as they move. It's handy to drop chaff behind you if someone's on your tail, but it's pretty damned useless when you're advancing on someone.

The entire gundam series strikes me as some kind of ludicrous feudal tournament, where both sides agree to eliminate all concievable advantages to focus on a chess game of amusing robots.

At least that new series they have on the Cartoon Network, G Gundam, tacitly admits this. (The whole series centers on televised duels between giant robots)

[HemlockGrey]

There is a person in my Latin class who's stupidity vortex is large enough to absorb several major star systems. Everyone makes fun of him. He is also a diehard fan of Gundam.

I pointed out how the Russians could easily drive back the mechs, and his response was this:

"No! The mechs shoot big beam guns! The tanks move really slowly and they wouldn't even dent them!"

I tell you no lies.

...

SAMAS, where do you live...?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

[quote="Cyril"]There is a person in my Latin class who's stupidity vortex is large enough to absorb several major star systems. Everyone makes fun of him. He is also a diehard fan of Gundam.

I pointed out how the Russians could easily drive back the mechs, and his response was this:

"No! The mechs shoot big beam guns! The tanks move really slowly and they wouldn't even dent them!"

I tell you no lies.

...
[\quote]

Now that guy is a fumb duck.

[Dendrobius]

Why do you guys KEEP not LOOKING at the EVIDENCE?!

In the anime series from which this is from, we SAW a Gundam TAKE A SHOT TO THE CHEST FROM A TANK, AT POINT BLANK RANGE (<5 metres). There WAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THE AFOREMENTIONED GUNDAM.

Refer to Episode Nine of the OVA 08th MS Team. If anybody wants photos, I can grab them off my VCD collection of this series.

The Gundam in question was of the same era as the Zaku II we're talking about here. And the tank which shot it was a Magella Attack tank. This tank takes on the Earth Federation tanks on a equal basis, and the Earth Fed tanks as seen in the opening sequences of this series is not a toy.

Mr. Wong: Yes, Minovsky particles do carry a double blind penalty, which is why engagement range in the Gundam series is always visual range only. Mobile Suits are specifically designed for this environment with extremely good optics systems along with computer enhancement of the visuals.

And the series STATES CATEGORICALLY, as well as demonstrates multiple times that Minovsky particles do block IR as well as radar waves. We don't know how, but hey, do we know how the Death Star's power generator gets more power than any known theoretical method? No, we just know that it does.

There. Tank wanking this is. Please. Sure, if you made a tank using all the technology available to make the Zaku II, it will absolutely demolish the Zaku II. I don't argue against that, that's a given. However, put it up against a T90 when the series that it's from has DEMONSTRATED that Mobile Suits EAT tanks for breakfast, well, you people are just not looking at the evidence right in front of your collective faces.

[Vympel]

Why do you guys KEEP not LOOKING at the EVIDENCE?!

In the anime series from which this is from, we SAW a Gundam TAKE A SHOT TO THE CHEST FROM A TANK, AT POINT BLANK RANGE (<5 metres). There WAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THE AFOREMENTIONED GUNDAM.

Calcs for this tank? What uber technology does it use pray tell?

[Dendrobius]

I'm not saying that this tank is anything uber, but what I am saying is that Mobile Suits have demonstrated that it can take tank fire.

As for calcs for the tank, I can't. There just isn't any evidence I can use from the series, you don't see tanks in action very often. I'm blindly assuming that a tank designed almost a hundred years into the future is at least equal to a present day tank, at least in terms of armament. Not more advanced, just equal.

Or are you going to tell me that the tanks in Gundam are made weak just to make the Mobile Suits look good?

[MKSheppard]

Mr. Wong: Yes, Minovsky particles do carry a double blind penalty, which is why engagement range in the Gundam series is always visual range only. Mobile Suits are specifically designed for this environment with extremely good optics systems along with computer enhancement of the visuals.

Then why do they have a 3.2 km sensor max range?

STFU you fucktard fanboy wanker

[Raxmei]

In the anime series from which this is from, we SAW a Gundam TAKE A SHOT TO THE CHEST FROM A TANK, AT POINT BLANK RANGE (<5 metres). There WAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THE AFOREMENTIONED GUNDAM.

That is not necessarily a credit to the Gundam. The effect can be due either to the strength of the armor or the the weakness of the weapon. What are the stats of this tank's armament?

[Vympel]

I'm not saying that this tank is anything uber, but what I am saying is that Mobile Suits have demonstrated that it can take tank fire.

As for calcs for the tank, I can't. There just isn't any evidence I can use from the series, you don't see tanks in action very often. I'm blindly assuming that a tank designed almost a hundred years into the future is at least equal to a present day tank, at least in terms of armament. Not more advanced, just equal.

Or are you going to tell me that the tanks in Gundam are made weak just to make the Mobile Suits look good?

No math=no claim. What was the caliber of the main gun of the tank, was it HEAT or KE penetrator, what was the barrel length, etc.

Considering that all the evidence indicates that Gundam armament is pathetic (re: 120mm machine guns means piss poor muzzle velocity) then these tanks can't be too impressive if they're getting killed by it.