Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[PainRack]

They either provided false coordinates and built a false town, or they moved the entire populace away and rebuilt the town to suit their needs.

So they got their plan from Blazing Saddles?

The entire populace of Tukayid was "evacuated" with the "consent" of the FRR. They were returned after the war, but one presumably could read much into the official statements.

[harbringer]

PainRack I imagine they will use any method to win providing it fits the bid the fact they use artillery is not that they like artillery. I could just as easy recite gunlines formed up for honourable battle... doesnt mean they will always fight that way. And I was refering to the clans as at tukkayid and not after

That said I was thinking about clan snow raven and others who would actually prove your point though so I conceed just couldnt resist pointing out that using examples is dual edged ... something I am guessing spocknuts has found out.

[PainRack]

PainRack I imagine they will use any method to win providing it fits the bid the fact they use artillery is not that they like artillery. I could just as easy recite gunlines formed up for honourable battle... doesnt mean they will always fight that way. And I was refering to the clans as at tukkayid and not after

That said I was thinking about clan snow raven and others who would actually prove your point though so I conceed just couldnt resist pointing out that using examples is dual edged ... something I am guessing spocknuts has found out.

And for FUCK sake, Von Strang world was a world they invaded in 3049-3050, out in the PERIPHERY. Hell, its not the ONLY incident where the Clans used artillery up to Tukayid, just the most striking.

And this is Jade Falcon we're talking about, the most conservative of the Clans per none. Steel Viper takes this tack even further. Their tactic Viper Maw forces Clan warriors to constantly target new targets, thus, its reserved solely for Inner Sphere forces. And they used it during the 4th wave during their invasion. Clan Smoke Jaguar uses headhunter tactics constantly and their wall assault relies on using their assault mechs like the Daishi to overrun enemy defences and dump Elementals into the midst to cause havoc. Hardly a "duel".

To put it simply, you're hanging your "Clans don't use artillery and dislike it" purely based on the fact that Clan Mechwarriors hate being assigned to the Naga. This although the TRO also mentions that entire Clans hate the Dasher as well as the Gladiator, Mist Lynx for the fact that they're overspecialised or to support infantry.
Hell, considering that the Clans consider "support" personnel off limits and having no cause to fight on the battlefield, use of what they would consider non combatents would actually PROVOKE them to engage them with more firepower than neccessary. Witness Edo.

[Thanatos]

Ahh, but are not all of those autocannons more powerful than a heavy bolter and less powerful than a battle cannon - per salvo, anyway? That's all I'm asserting here.

No, you have Brostins for example, which was less powerful than a bolter.

Exact quotes, please.

No specific quote for Necropolis, because its based on a body of evidence. A gun position on the walls of Necropolis is 200m and Earthshaker fire from the Zoicans in the plains over the horizon hits the commercia, 10 t0 40km in from the walls. That's 54km to the horizon plus 10-40km not counting how far over the horizon the Zoicans were.

And then:

As the regiment hurridely mustered, sergeants and provosts bellowing at the troopers to gather their weapons and prepare for battle, the drop pods hammered to earth a hundred kilometres or so north-west of the regiment's posiition. Bane knew that another regiment, the 17th Cadian, was encamped in almost the very spot the drop pods were impacting.
...
At last, an artillery spotter attached to the 17th transmitted a desperate request for an artillery barrage to be targeted on his exact position, and Bane immediately routed this to the self-propelled artillery units attached to his regiment. Even as the spotter's transmission degenerated into incoherent screaming, Bane heard the rush of incoming ordnance over the vox-cahnenl and said a silent prayer when it was abruptly cut off as mushroom clouds blossomed on the distant, north-western horizon.

The recoil force backwards on the recoiling assembly is the same as the forward force on the bullet, as is the total change in momentum.

No, the recoil impulse is the same.

Sure it does. It's a hole in the wall that marines rush through.

This is satire right? I said we know nothing about the size of the whole or the properties of the building and you answer with the fact that they can run through it?

I guess a 2m hole in a chicken wire home and blasting a 6m hole in meter thick adobe means exactly the same thing to you?

Length times force gives muzzle energy

No, it doesn't. The Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of the round being fired and is calculated the exact same way you calculate any other kinetic energy.

And you run an analysis site?

Almost precisely equal to the Earthshaker.

*sigh*
You just completely missed the point. You claimed:

Also note that even the 155m shell you described has a muzzle energy of 6.1 megajoules - not terribly far from a modern kinetic penetrator.

In response to my statement that tank guns were more powerful kinetically than artillery.

A laser weapon similarly capable of piercing the "thickest armor" - but does not ordinarily threaten squads of infantry, unless fired on a special "dispersed" setting.

I guess you're not going to tell anybody that you picked the Fire Prism. Of course it doesn't normally threaten squads of troops on its focused setting, its a focused beam thats only on for less than a second!

A platoon can easily be dispersed across hundreds of meters.

Now, I have presented my case for lascannon being no more than 2 gigajoules in actual effect

No you haven't. You've posted vague reasoning, poorly thought out post facto assumptions and one article you only got because you posted early.

Where did you get your initial 2GJ from?

Actually, it is very real evidence of high firepower (as is instantly setting the entire front of the Aung house on fire), and the sort of incident we don't see in Warhammer, to my knowledge.

What? I gave you one!

And its a plasma weapon, of course it would set the entire front of the house on fire and anyone caught in the blast thanks to the "splash" when it hits. Its not being auto ignited due to heat build up.

Size is enough to be easily visible from a high speed strafing fighter a good distance away.

Yes, its surface area is enough to be seen. If it was say, 5mm thick, than it would need to be 200 square meters, or roughly half an acre, in area to make a full cubic meter of sand.

You don't know the area or the depth. Vague assumptions based on what a pilot can see don't cut it.

The medium laser clearly did most of the work.

No it clearly did not. You can't post something where there's clearly

You just ignored a series of five quotes, which rather precisely established my claims.

I wasn't asking for evidence Short Bus, I was expressing mock surprise you actually posted evidence. Don't tell me you're this lack witted.

Connor McLeod says otherwise in discussing the incident.

Yes he does only you clearly didn't pay any attention to what he says in your link.

IIRC from Honour Guard the terrain was basically "flat" (forest close to a town cleared of trees for about a kilometer's distance.) It was a close range shot (few tens of meters) on ground that inclined slightly downwards from where the Conqueror was (the enemy tank which caused the Conqueror to lurch would be firing upwards.)
The incline probably wasn't significant, though - a laser-cannon armed tank destroyer was able to fire past the Conqueror and destroy the enemy tank very shortly after and the incident is described as bein gnearly parallel IIRC.

How the heck did you interpret that as getting pushed down hill? Was it the part where he explicitly said that it would have been pushed up hill that threw you?

Sideways also means on the axis of least resistance for the treads

No it isn't. The logical failure required to think the above is just staggering. Do you push your car sideways down the road when it breaks down Spock? Do you ride a sled sideways down a hill?

Of course not because its path of most resistance.

vs multi-meganewton legs, hips, etc.

Except for the tiny fact that it would be powered movement since it needs to move to keep its legs under its center of gravity to prevent falling like everything else with legs.

Namely, "Conqueror much better at this."

No you utter dunce. God, it compares it to standard pattern Russ explicitly.

I'm not confusing anything.

Yes you are. You used the rate of advance against the Tau as part of your argument for low speed. Which is stupid because rate of advance is not vehicle speed, as you can tell by one of the fastest invasions on record only maintaining a rate of advance per day equal to half its hourly road speed. Against a foe that it went through like a bullet through Kleenex.

We're not talking about stopping and fighting battles; we're talking about raids, snipers, and the occasional fleeting ambush.

You're conveniently leaving out all that pesky context again.

I guess you forgot about the battle of Tunguska station that not only held up the column but forced it to withdraw and have to retake it late the next day. Odd since you quoted directly from it.

I guess you also missed the repeated mention of frequent stalling attacks that ground the column to a near halt. Odd again, since you quoted from it. Must have just slipped your mind.

I guess you also missed the fact that gaurd units lost 50% of all tank strength in the first few days. Even odder still you again quoted and reffered to events that happened during this.

I also surmise that you forgot that the Tau were continually strafing the Imperial regiments.

I think you also missed the fact that the Imperial supply lines had been cut. and the Imperials were running low on water much less fuel and I guess we can forgive you for missing this, it was only after the line you had quoted.

Another thing you have seem to have missed was the fact that it flat out states that they were managing to move forward despite all this. This one is definitely odd, because it was right before the bit you quoted.

But I guess you just missed or forgot all that and weren't at all being an utter dishonest git by claiming that there wasn't much slowing them down.

A Roman legion might manage that march, although they weren't towing as much artillery.

Oh FFS, a road march is not the same as a god damn combat advance. 20km a day is a good base rate against an enemy on the same level as you.

And which I explicitly note uses a kinetic subcaliber round with penetration not terribly superior to that of modern tank penetrators.

Which you arbitraly assumed to be not terribly superior to modern tank penetrators you mean. Especially since you purposely assumed a round material with less density than Tungsten, reducing the mass of the round by 30%. That's ignoring you don't know the velocity on the Vanquisher gun, even conquerors are described as having hyper velocity rounds.

Then there's impact angle to consider. If you hit a Land Raider with 300mm "conventional hardened steel" equivalent, say, to 400mm RHA at a 60 degree angle, you're trying to penetrate the equivalent of 800mm RHA.

Quite aware of that since I did the calcs for effective armor thickness on the Russ.

I would say it is pretty impressive how shock resistant WH40K vehicles are.

Yet you insist on it being RHA despite that kind of shock resistance not being possible with it.

Actually, it is. The quickest you can turn - period - is by spinning treads in opposite directions

I am aware of pivot steering, you seem to be utterly forgetting what I did for a living. Of course, I know that low end torque and acceleration are what matters, not road speed.

Its all transmission when you're on the move, as a result of being a difference between track speeds. Its NOT road speed that determines turning speed.

And I like how you're still using that ancient HP rating despite basically everything else on there being changed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Wrong thread.

[Thanatos]

Oh shit wrong window. Can I get someone to truck that over to the right place?

[harbringer]

I was pointing out honorable combat as compared to the opposite the clans felt the periphery was honorable and treated them accordingly .. I wasn't purely commenting on pilot dislikes though that won't help the naga's case. The goliath scorpions will not use the naga front line period as they have that whole gladitorial culture however I considered them a special case. Clan against clan it is nearly always a line up and stoush as your no doubt well aware, for the trial of refusal/annihilation on strana mechty artillery was generally not used (unless you count LRM's which for this purpose im not) and generally all artillery used by the clans doesn't seem to be organised into batteries or artillery lances/stars and fired at grids. The exception to this is orbital fire (yes as in edo) and bombing which is why I refered to clan snow raven probably proving your point as they have very weak mech forces and use Aerospace and are still considered honorable. However the clans fighting a dishonerable opponent isn't a good test as they are trying to "punish" said and will do things outside their normal - which happens to be why most combat against inner sphere and periphery wasn't what I was refering to.

[Ghost Rider]

The merge is a tad weird, but meh. I figured it adds to the ambiance.

[Thanatos]

The merge is a tad weird, but meh. I figured it adds to the ambiance.

Thanks for booting it over here.

[PainRack]

I was pointing out honorable combat as compared to the opposite the clans felt the periphery was honorable and treated them accordingly .. I wasn't purely commenting on pilot dislikes though that won't help the naga's case.

Except that this concept of "honourable" combat= Clans not using combined arms is just another brainfart that's becoming prevalent amongst fans and later novelists.

The Clans had ALWAYS used combined arms including and up to artillery. The difference rests solely in terms of vehicles and conventional infantry, with the Clans having replaced them with mechs and Elementals.

Clan against clan it is nearly always a line up and stoush as your no doubt well aware,

No, I'm NOT aware. Pray tell, why is it that Delta Galaxy of the Nova cats is infamous for anti infantry tactics? Pray tell, why is it that Delta Galaxy of Clan Wolf practised and used elementals in its trials? Pray tell, why is it that Invading Clans sourcebook talks about Steel Viper tactics that is usuable for both Clan and Inner Sphere forces?

I can go on. The Home clans have a Clan which combines the use of aerospace fighters as CAS with their mech forces. Clan Wolf sourcebook outright states that warfare starts at the bidding level, with good Clan tacticians/strategists using the bidding not only as a source of information and competition, but a means of manipulating/shaping the battlefield and forces.

Hell, Kerensky and Ward in his shaping of the "ideal" cluster creates an intergrated combined arms unit. Mech binaries mixed with infantry and aerospace fighters. By the end of the Golden Century, the Clans can simply do what Jade Falcon did on Von Strang. Need Artillery? Reconfigure your mechs to carry Arrow IVs.

for the trial of refusal/annihilation on strana mechty artillery was generally not used (unless you count LRM's which for this purpose im not) and generally all artillery used by the clans doesn't seem to be organised into batteries or artillery lances/stars and fired at grids.

Purely because the Clans use aerospace fighters to replace the extremely short range nature of Btech artillery. Against fortifications, artillery come back into its own. That's a discussion about the nerfing of Btech artillery and its inability to fire on the move and against mobile targets, not Clan tactics.

However the clans fighting a dishonerable opponent isn't a good test as they are trying to "punish" said and will do things outside their normal - which happens to be why most combat against inner sphere and periphery wasn't what I was refering to.

And? How on earth does this show that the Clans don't use artillery, intergrate combined arms or sensible tactics in its battles? We seen artillery used during the Home clan wars, such as the battle at Tokasha. Albeit, Bears vs Hell Horses. More importantly, there simply isn't any evidence for this Clans dislike using long range fire and blind firing. Their concept of honourable combat applies simply to conservation of force. If a mech decleares another mech or two or 3 his targets, no one else can jump in unless they're part of the bid. This does not mean that they do not use tactics.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Clans don't use sensible tactics. That's a given. Artillery is used, but it's disgraceful. Vanderhaven Chistu covered up his killing of Ilkhan Kerensky with an artillery barrage because it was not honorable. When it was revealed he was forced into a death duel. They do use combined arms, but they are a warrior society that places the highest emphasis on one on one dueling. Once combined fire, artillery, or similar tactics are initiated it is honorable for the Clansmen to do the same, but this is not a mode of warfare they are comfortable with or prefer. This was used against them repeatedly in the Clan Invasion.

The Hell's Horses are considered freaks for their strong emphasis on combined arms. Steel Viper does use group combat tactics, but this is again noted as exceptional behavior. Group combat does not favor demonstrations of individual warrior prowess essential for a Clansman to gain Trials of Position for higher ranks and nominations for Trials of Bloodright. Furthermore their warrior code of conduct was designed to minimize the size of combats and collateral damage through emphasis on personal combat and bidding to reduce forces. That the Inner Sphere does not do the same is a shock to them and forces changes in Clan warfare.

[PainRack]

The Clans don't use sensible tactics. That's a given. Artillery is used, but it's disgraceful. Vanderhaven Chistu covered up his killing of Ilkhan Kerensky with an artillery barrage because it was not honorable. When it was revealed he was forced into a death duel. They do use combined arms, but they are a warrior society that places the highest emphasis on one on one dueling. Once combined fire, artillery, or similar tactics are initiated it is honorable for the Clansmen to do the same, but this is not a mode of warfare they are comfortable with or prefer. This was used against them repeatedly in the Clan Invasion.

Oh bollocks. Chistu was censured because he laid an ambush using multiple mechs firing an LRM barrage at Ulric. Not because he used artillery but rather, the fact that he violated the batchall.
Highest emphasis on one on one dueling? Did you even read the part where Clan mechwarriors gain greater honour by engaging multiple targets on their own? And of course, lose more since they're arrogant enough to engage multiple targets?
As for comfortable with or prefer, Clan Ghost Bear, Wolves, Jade Falcon, Steel Viper, Smoke Jaguar begs to differ. The invasion of the Inner Sphere shows exactly how comfortable they are with working with different elements or using variable tactics.

The Hell's Horses are considered freaks for their strong emphasis on combined arms. Steel Viper does use group combat tactics, but this is again noted as exceptional behavior. Group combat does not favor demonstrations of individual warrior prowess essential for a Clansman to gain Trials of Position for higher ranks and nominations for Trials of Bloodright. Furthermore their warrior code of conduct was designed to minimize the size of combats and collateral damage through emphasis on personal combat and bidding to reduce forces. That the Inner Sphere does not do the same is a shock to them and forces changes in Clan warfare.

So, once again, pray tell, explain Delta Galaxy finese in anti-infantry tactics again? Culture shock aside, this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Clans do use tactics in battle, do use combined arms and aren't limited to two mechwarriors dueling it out like samurai.
Define "group" combat, since the very basis of the trial of position requires them to engage and defeat multiple opponents and mechwarriors have gained both fame or infamy for engaging multiple targets at once during their Trial. Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon sourcebook both tell of how the Clans had superior coordination due to training and technology. How Clan "battle language" is so obscure that Inner Sphere analysts were unable to understand it. Pray tell, why evolve a system of communicating information to other units that's designed to be as short and expressive as possible, if it wasn't supposed to be used for coordination units in combat?

[Imperial Overlord]

The Clans don't use sensible tactics. That's a given. Artillery is used, but it's disgraceful. Vanderhaven Chistu covered up his killing of Ilkhan Kerensky with an artillery barrage because it was not honorable. When it was revealed he was forced into a death duel. They do use combined arms, but they are a warrior society that places the highest emphasis on one on one dueling. Once combined fire, artillery, or similar tactics are initiated it is honorable for the Clansmen to do the same, but this is not a mode of warfare they are comfortable with or prefer. This was used against them repeatedly in the Clan Invasion.

Oh bollocks. Chistu was censured because he laid an ambush using multiple mechs firing an LRM barrage at Ulric. Not because he used artillery but rather, the fact that he violated the batchall.

That's right, because ambushing with outside line of sight weaponry, which in the real world we call smart, is dishonorable in Clan society. The disgrace in piloting a Naga is written right into the 'mech's description and repeated ad nauseum almost everytime artillery fire is mentioned.

Highest emphasis on one on one dueling? Did you even read the part where Clan mechwarriors gain greater honour by engaging multiple targets on their own? And of course, lose more since they're arrogant enough to engage multiple targets?

Yes, a single warrior engaging multiple enemies, proving his individual prowess. Not ganging up on a single target with the rest of his star/lance. This supports, not disproves my point.

As for comfortable with or prefer, Clan Ghost Bear, Wolves, Jade Falcon, Steel Viper, Smoke Jaguar begs to differ. The invasion of the Inner Sphere shows exactly how comfortable they are with working with different elements or using variable tactics.

Clan Smoke Jaguar considered all of its targets dezgra and went as far as orbital bombardment against rioting civilians. Their actions, always questionable do to their extreme bloodlust, dishonored their whole clan and caused the clans as a whole to bid away their warships. Also they still favored one on one duels and were stupid enough to get suckered into fighting the Genyosha in unfavorable terrain that the Dracs had prepared against them.

Ghost Bear had poor success against the Inner Sphere for the first half of the Invasion where they used typical Crusader tactics. When they came back, using more teamwork, they had more success They are also a Clan that possess a strong emphasis on team work which is a Clan oddity dating back to their first khans being a married couple.

Jade Falcon was hyper conservative. They lost the Falcon Guards because one mechwarrior held them up in a pass they knew was mined (because they killed the engineers) in single combat. No sign of flexibility until Aidan Pryde and Tukkayid.

Wolves are the most progressive Clan. Steel Viper is isolationist freaks who are notable in actually developing mass combat tactics. The Clans won based on grossly superior technology until they got rolled by superior strategy and tactics and improving Inner Sphere technology. Really, do you fucking read any fluff?

So, once again, pray tell, explain Delta Galaxy finese in anti-infantry tactics again? Culture shock aside, this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Clans do use tactics in battle, do use combined arms and aren't limited to two mechwarriors dueling it out like samurai.
Define "group" combat, since the very basis of the trial of position requires them to engage and defeat multiple opponents and mechwarriors have gained both fame or infamy for engaging multiple targets at once during their Trial. Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon sourcebook both tell of how the Clans had superior coordination due to training and technology. How Clan "battle language" is so obscure that Inner Sphere analysts were unable to understand it. Pray tell, why evolve a system of communicating information to other units that's designed to be as short and expressive as possible, if it wasn't supposed to be used for coordination units in combat?

Trial of Position are usually fought as a sequence of duels. It is dishonorable for the next warrior to interfere until attacked. Infantry standards of honorable combat are different than mechwarriors because they have to use teamwork. Aidan Pryde is infamous for engaging multiple targets at once, but he's infamous and a disgrace his entire career until Tukkayid. Do you read any of the novels? This is made clear.

Clan "battle language" is a joke. I had no problem figuring out the meanings from context without knowing the Russian or the Mongolian loan words. Thanks for the straw man. I never said they never coordinated in battle. Read the second Jade Phoenix book for a nice Clan on Clan battle. You'll notice coordination with lots of emphasis on single combat.

I have no idea what you want me to explain with Delta Galaxy. This is a culture that regularly uses powered armour and faces more conventional bandit infantry. Infantry explicitly operates under a different code than mech warriors because they can't succeed without teamwork and are much more prone to starting "grand melees", situations where team and group tactics are honorable. I don't see how anti-infantry tactics invalidate my point.

[Thanatos]

Ahh, but are not all of those autocannons more powerful than a heavy bolter and less powerful than a battle cannon - per salvo, anyway? That's all I'm asserting here.

No, you have Brostins for example, which was less powerful than a bolter.

Evidence please. I would like to hear about this autocannon less powerful than a bolter.

Exact quotes, please.

No specific quote for Necropolis, because its based on a body of evidence. A gun position on the walls of Necropolis is 200m and Earthshaker fire from the Zoicans in the plains over the horizon hits the commercia, 10 t0 40km in from the walls. That's 54km to the horizon plus 10-40km not counting how far over the horizon the Zoicans were.

If it's a body of evidence, that means multiple quotes put together. I want to see those quotes.

At that point, assuming that the evidence indeed supports what you claim it does, we have a contradiction. The question is if the 2005 novel overrides the 2003-2007 fluff, along with the direct narrative of the fiction within the 2007 book.

And then:

As the regiment hurridely mustered, sergeants and provosts bellowing at the troopers to gather their weapons and prepare for battle, the drop pods hammered to earth a hundred kilometres or so north-west of the regiment's posiition. Bane knew that another regiment, the 17th Cadian, was encamped in almost the very spot the drop pods were impacting.
...
At last, an artillery spotter attached to the 17th transmitted a desperate request for an artillery barrage to be targeted on his exact position, and Bane immediately routed this to the self-propelled artillery units attached to his regiment. Even as the spotter's transmission degenerated into incoherent screaming, Bane heard the rush of incoming ordnance over the vox-cahnenl and said a silent prayer when it was abruptly cut off as mushroom clouds blossomed on the distant, north-western horizon.

There. I appreciate you at long last providing some evidence. A small question: Where does it say these are Earthshakers? It is the primary artillery of the Guard, of course, so it's not a bad assumption.

A more important question: Which source does this come from, and why should I accept this as overriding the sourcebook fluff of Imperial Armour Volume I, the sourcebook fluff of Imperial Armour Volume III, the sourcebook fluff of Imperial Armour Volume V, and further, the narration, i.e., fiction, of Imperial Armour Volume V, which basically amounts to a novella in and of itself. (The story of the Siege of Vraks.)

The recoil force backwards on the recoiling assembly is the same as the forward force on the bullet, as is the total change in momentum.

No, the recoil impulse is the same.

Clarify. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Sure it does. It's a hole in the wall that marines rush through.

This is satire right? I said we know nothing about the size of the whole or the properties of the building and you answer with the fact that they can run through it?

I guess a 2m hole in a chicken wire home and blasting a 6m hole in meter thick adobe means exactly the same thing to you?

Of course not. However, two holes in the wall with similar mission requirements and similar descriptions can be presumed similar.

Length times force gives muzzle energy

No, it doesn't. The Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of the round being fired and is calculated the exact same way you calculate any other kinetic energy.

Yes, it does. Force (dot) distance is the work done on the round, which is the energy applied to the round, which is the final energy of the shell. Basic physics.

*sigh*
You just completely missed the point. You claimed:

Also note that even the 155m shell you described has a muzzle energy of 6.1 megajoules - not terribly far from a modern kinetic penetrator.

In response to my statement that tank guns were more powerful kinetically than artillery.

That was precisely apt. The ancient 155mm Howitzer is about the KE of a modern kinetic penetrator. And you missed the point earlier that the Earthshaker is a larger gun, and therefore can be expected to have a better ratio of recoil to muzzle energy than the Conqueror, Vanqusher, or Battle Cannon.

For that matter, unless the Vanquisher is under 100mm in caliber, the standard battle cannon less than 50mm, the Conqueror less than 40mm, or the Demolisher less than 30mm, it is the longest weapon in calibers, and gun length in calibers generally correlates strongly and positively with muzzle velocity within a techbase. For that reason, we do not expect muzzle velocities to exceed that of the Earthshaker unless a subcaliber sabot is being used.

Everything we know points to the intuitively obvious solution that the Earthshaker is a high-energy and high-momentum gun by the standards of WH40k armored vehicles.

A laser weapon similarly capable of piercing the "thickest armor" - but does not ordinarily threaten squads of infantry, unless fired on a special "dispersed" setting.

I guess you're not going to tell anybody that you picked the Fire Prism. Of course it doesn't normally threaten squads of troops on its focused setting, its a focused beam thats only on for less than a second!

Precisely. Short firing time, fails to threaten multiple infantrymen at all on that setting. If it were a multi-gigajoule range weapon, it would threaten multiple infantrymen on its high intensity setting, because anything it hit would be exploding violently.

A platoon can easily be dispersed across hundreds of meters.

Squad, not platoon, and "can" is not the same thing as "necessarily." Especially in a universe filled with crew-served field weapons, human/Ork waves, and close-combat formations. The description of the Fire Prism confirms precisely what I've been saying - that a laser weapon powerful enough to pierce the thickest WH40K tank armor does not have a significant area of effect blast.

Now, I have presented my case for lascannon being no more than 2 gigajoules in actual effect

No you haven't. You've posted vague reasoning, poorly thought out post facto assumptions and one article you only got because you posted early.

Where did you get your initial 2GJ from?

I have presented three solid reasons for it. The article in question, while most specific, is hardly the most telling - which is the noticeable lack of blast effects. Note in particular that 2 GJ is the equivalent of a half ton of TNT.

I will now present a fourth line of evidence. To vaporize a 10 cm diameter plug of steel 365mm thick (23 kg): 171 megajoules. Thus, assuming that the thickest value of equivalence given for the protection of Land Raider armor is within a factor of ten of the thermal resistance of actual steel, we conclude (again) that the lascannon is under 2 gigajoules.

In turn, you have presented absolutely no evidence to the counter of my assertion - because, I suspect, you have none that can point to such high lascannon yields.

What? I gave you one!

You most certainly have not presented any example of WH40k ground firepower involving a similar magnitude of collateral damage.

And its a plasma weapon, of course it would set the entire front of the house on fire and anyone caught in the blast thanks to the "splash" when it hits. Its not being auto ignited due to heat build up.

Incorrect on multiple counts. First, the PPC is not a thermal plasma weapon; it is basically a lightning weapon.

The blue lightning missed by less than a meter, striking a nearby rock with a mighty crack!

The brilliant blue bolts of man-made lightning hit a Marauder Atlas in its upper chest just below the skull-like head, sending armor plating ricocheting off in every direction as the bolts seared their way in.

Lightning arced out from the barrels of particle projector cannon, snaking downrange to smash armor into large, molten globs.

As such, it may involve plasma, but it does not splash white-hot plasma everywhere (BT does have such weapons; they are called "plasma cannon" and "plasma rifle"); it involves electrical discharges. Second, the energy requirement I calculated comes not from the house being set on fire, but from the melting glass across the street, something that I have told you several times now.

Incidentally, I made a small mistake the last time I repeated this fact to you. I said I was using a 10m distance for the impact site in the Aungs' yard to the Suthorns' front window, and I gave you a figure that presumed only a 5m distance. The actual figure for 10m is 126 gigajoules.

As I said, it's pretty clear that the PPC is best measured in units of size 10 gigajoules. Personally, I prefer the lower end of this range because of the issue of waste heat, but even the waste heat issue strongly suggests the e10 joule range.

I challenge you to present evidence for PPC yields being less than 10 gigajoules. I have presented two distinct and independent lines of evidence:

• Effect of such weapons and comparable high-intensity short-duration thermal beam weapons against inert normal targets, such as may be seen in Close Quarters.
• Waste heat of such weapons, as illustrated within the rules mechanics as well as in descriptions such as Star Lord.

You have presented nothing - not game mechanical evidence, not descriptive fluff, not narrative fiction, all of which I have examined regarding this topic - and so have no grounds for offering dispute.

Yes, its surface area is enough to be seen. If it was say, 5mm thick, than it would need to be 200 square meters, or roughly half an acre, in area to make a full cubic meter of sand.

5mm is an unlikely thickness. We have a burst of electromagnetic radiation in a tightly focused beam; it's not going to magically conduct itself in a perfect sheet along the surface. Nor, again, do we see WH40k lascannon performing similar feats.

You don't know the area or the depth. Vague assumptions based on what a pilot can see don't cut it.

Is it a precise estimation? No. Is it strongly compatible with what I've outlined? Yes. We generally do not see sand get glassed in anything less than the energy of a strong lightning strike (gigajoules), much less giant splotches of it. We're talking about 1700+ kelvins of heating.

No it clearly did not. You can't post something where there's clearly

Sure it did. It's a far more powerful weapon.

Or would you like to consider how powerful a machine gun would have to be to mow down a grove of trees? With two machine guns and a medium laser, the Locust levelled the grove in seconds. The Locust is a very light-weight, low-firepower BattleMech, among the very lightest and most primitive to be found in the BattleTech militaries - and yet, in the space of moments, it has matched a daisy cutter.

I wasn't asking for evidence

You most certainly seemed to be. I take it, then, that you accept that gauss rifles are 720-1000 megajoule kinetic weapons with 100mm 125 kg rounds?

Yes he does only you clearly didn't pay any attention to what he says in your link.

IIRC from Honour Guard the terrain was basically "flat" (forest close to a town cleared of trees for about a kilometer's distance.) It was a close range shot (few tens of meters) on ground that inclined slightly downwards from where the Conqueror was (the enemy tank which caused the Conqueror to lurch would be firing upwards.)
The incline probably wasn't significant, though - a laser-cannon armed tank destroyer was able to fire past the Conqueror and destroy the enemy tank very shortly after and the incident is described as bein gnearly parallel IIRC.

How the heck did you interpret that as getting pushed down hill? Was it the part where he explicitly said that it would have been pushed up hill that threw you?

The coefficient of static friction generally exceeds the coefficient of kinetic friction. Thus, a jolt that is sufficient to cause an object to start sliding may cause it to lurch downhill, regardless of the direction of the jolt.

There remains, of course, the core issue that what is most likely causing the tank to jolt is not the momentum of the incoming round, but rather the force of its explosion.

No it isn't.

Yes, it is. Treads, if held fixed, present a maximal resistance along the fore/aft axis because the ridges are parallel to the left/right axis. If free to rotate, of course, that doesn't hold. The coefficient of friction also depends on the terrain. It's a very flexible incident that can be modeled in a variety of ways.

Except for the tiny fact that it would be powered movement since it needs to move to keep its legs under its center of gravity to prevent falling like everything else with legs.

And? Like anything, it is exerting a force over a distance. The leg muscles are going to be the primary suppliers of the braking force. In saying that, relative to the Conqueror, it has inferior fire-on-the-move capability. Which brings us back to square one. The actual rate of advance presented is low; the planned rate of advance was nearly as low. What we are presented with is not a running battle. It is a march across a wide open desert which happened to be beset by ambushes and raiders. One of numerous reasons that the Imperials fell behind their planned schedule for the long march into the desert. Another was the superiority of Tau weapons technology.

The Broadside's railguns, which easily pierce Imperium tank armor, are probably substantially less powerful than the 'Mech scale Gauss Rifle, which has enough momentum to send a Broadside suit flying at >100 m/s. However, they are probably quite close to BT battle armor grade gauss rifles. All of which the Imperial plans did not account for in their "ambitious" plan to march 20 km per day across the desert and then meet the Tau in a pitched battle.

20 km per day. The long and arduous march across the desert. Hampered by lack of water because of their slow speed and logistical problems; you're mixing up cause and effect there. The march was slow, and therefore, instead of running out of water while they assaulted presumed Tau fortifications, they ran out while trying to get there. A road march is a lot closer to what the Imperials planned on; a combat advance is what they got, and it was not 20 km a day. Remember, the Imperium commander's planned pace was considered ambitious, and they failed to meet it.

The result was a dramatic display of how badly the Imperials can get themselves beaten by the Tau. They most certainly did not demonstrate exceptional mobility. The Imperium's logistical problems in the Taros campaign, moreover, display limitations on the Guard's common levels of mobility. BattleMech based forces do not require as extensive, slow-moving, and vulnerable a logistics train to support their combat operations. This is based primarily on their length/diameter ratio, their momentum (less than an Earthshaker round), the apparent caliber of Vanquisher, etc. I have sound reasons for each of my assumptions. You might want to provide a quote to back up any claims about that. Especially given that the depleted uranium is not 30% less dense than tungsten, last I checked.

We do know the muzzle velocity of the Earthshaker, and its mass, and therefore its momentum. We also know that the Earthshaker cannon is substantially more massive (1.5+ times) than the Vanquisher, and thus handles recoil better. If the Vanquisher round has two thirds of the total momentum of an Earthshaker round, meaning if anything more recoil force, and is 13 kg as you have just suggested, then it would have a muzzle velocity of 1586 m/s, and a muzzle energy of 16 megajoules, barely any more than my initial suggestion.

The basic problem here is that no matter what model we use for our ballistics data, the Vanquisher's special anti-tank round is not reasonably going to get within an order of magnitude of the power of a BattleTech gauss rifle. We're talking about something more than twice the muzzle energy of the giant 16"/50 guns of the USS Iowa in a quarter the caliber, and you're thinking that something that measures up to 300mm of conventional steel armor can somehow resist this.

Like the Tau railguns, this will go in one end of the tank and out the other. The hole will be larger, though. By all means, if you have calculations, show them. I remain unimpressed so far, and see no reason to discard the equivalences stated explicitly in the Imperial Armour series. Are they made of RHA? No. Of course they do not behave as if constructed of RHA; however, against conventional attacks, they have a resistance equivalent to a certain thickness of conventional steel armor.

Could 300mm of hardened steel armor protect from penetration by a near-proximity gigajaoule blast? It can and it has. Does the shock resistance of a vehicle intrinsically relate to its resistance against penetration? No. And yet, if the maximum speed your treads rotate at is by design 35 kph, then unless you fiddle the engine, the fastest you'll ever turn is going to be with one tread going 35 kph backwards and one going 35 kph forward. This will be the same as running in a circle with the same width as the tank. If it's 3m, for example, the tank is never going to spin 360 degrees in 1 second or less regardless of how much torque or horsepower you have.

This is usually not the limiting factor with real life tanks, but both speed and horsepower can be limiting factors for turning a vehicle, and in the case of the Imperium Back up your claim, Thanatos. I provided evidence for my claims; it is up to you to provide evidence against them and evidence in favor of your claims. The claim that a source is in error has a double burden: First, to show that it is contradicted by other sources. Second, to show that those other sources are superior.

[Dark Hellion]

To give him an autocannon less powerful than a bolter, you can use Nightbringer. It describes a lighter autocannon on a flying craft. The infamous Marine protecting the little girl scene. Note also that the Assault Cannon is a actually a multi-barreled rotary autocannon, and it is weaker than the generic Autocannon. Or the fact that the vehicle rules allowed for Mega-autocannon, which are larger bore autocannon.

The autocannon in the game is a generalization, much like the Heavy stubber. We know from both novels and the RPGs that a variety of calibers and variants exist.

[harbringer]

he still hasnt managed to equate the kinetic energy of a gauss rifle and a tau rail gun which at the moment seems to be his strongest argument. He needs to show the effect of a gauss rifle and a railgun being equal ... hasnt done that.

[PainRack]

That's right, because ambushing with outside line of sight weaponry, which in the real world we call smart, is dishonorable in Clan society. The disgrace in piloting a Naga is written right into the 'mech's description and repeated ad nauseum almost everytime artillery fire is mentioned.

Errr... No. The dishonour did not come in the using of indirect LRM fire. It came from the fact that it was an ambush.... You know, when Vanderhan Chistu challenged Ulric to a duel? It was supposed to be one on one. Not Five on one.

Yes, a single warrior engaging multiple enemies, proving his individual prowess. Not ganging up on a single target with the rest of his star/lance. This supports, not disproves my point.

Except that this is the SOLE limitation on their combat tactic. The fact that mechwarrior targets are "limited". And this form of zelbring only applies to......... Mechwarriors. Not their elemental counterparts, although aerospace pilots occupy a gray area.

Clan Smoke Jaguar considered all of its targets dezgra and went as far as orbital bombardment against rioting civilians. [/

Not during the first wave. Furthermore, you mistake the orbital bombardment of Edo with their tactical doctrine.
Edo refers to their disgust that civilians would dare fight, this when in Clan society, only Warriors can play at combat. While extreme, an equivalent attitude would be Germany reaction towards partisan warfare in WW1 and WW2.

Their actions, always questionable do to their extreme bloodlust, dishonored their whole clan and caused the clans as a whole to bid away their warships.

Not because it violated the Clan tactical doctrine, but because it violated Clan culture and the ethos that Clan Warriors have to "protect" the weak.

Also they still favored one on one duels and were stupid enough to get suckered into fighting the Genyosha in unfavorable terrain that the Dracs had prepared against them.

The batchall prepped the battleground. Period. And of course, how does ANY of this violate the fact that the Clans use combined arms? May I point out that Turtle Bay had SJ vehicles garrisoning Edo, and it was the eruption of riots, and the use of said vehicles machine guns in gunning down rioters that eventually caused the cascade reaction that led to orbital bombardment?

Ghost Bear had poor success against the Inner Sphere for the first half of the Invasion where they used typical Crusader tactics.

Errr...... The poor success was deliberately due to the fact that Clan Ghost Bear brought in the least amount of supplies. Crusader philosophy and the arrogrance of the Clans certaintly but has nothing about the Clans not using tactics.

When they came back, using more teamwork, they had more success They are also a Clan that possess a strong emphasis on team work which is a Clan oddity dating back to their first khans being a married couple.

Es Espirit De Corps is one thing, but the fact that they brought in more supplies and contracted both Steel Viper and PGCs is another. Furthermore, how does the fact that they emphasise teamwork devalue the fact that yes, the Clans use combined arms and other tactics?

Jade Falcon was hyper conservative. They lost the Falcon Guards because one mechwarrior held them up in a pass they knew was mined (because they killed the engineers) in single combat. No sign of flexibility until Aidan Pryde and Tukkayid.

Yet, they used combined arms, outflanked enemy units, sent in headhunters, laid traps for guerillas............. All prior to Tukayid.

Really, do you fucking read any fluff?

Do you? The fact that Ghost Bear used the Omnimech flexibility to mislead Draconis counts of their mechs, leading them to believe they were facing superior numbers IS a tactic. Smoke Jaguar outflanking and using headhunter tactics? TACTICs. The use of combined arms? A given. Hell, Ghost Bear even used aerospace fighters as surveillance and path-finders, although the 1st wave and the belief that the FRR troops should be given a fair chance at combat as opposed to being bombed and sunk at sea caused a world to be reconquered by the FRR.

Trial of Position are usually fought as a sequence of duels. It is dishonorable for the next warrior to interfere until attacked.

Except that there are trials where Mechwarriors engage multiple targets at once, due either to glory seeking or missed shots.

Infantry standards of honorable combat are different than mechwarriors because they have to use teamwork. Aidan Pryde is infamous for engaging multiple targets at once, but he's infamous and a disgrace his entire career until Tukkayid. Do you read any of the novels? This is made clear.

And? Steel Viper and Wolves both allowed mechwarriors to target multiple targets and refire on the move. Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar rejected zellbringen during the 4th wave onwards although conservatism led to some mechwarriors rejecting this dictate. In battle amongst themselves, the sole limitation on their tactics is that mechwarriors cannot gang up on other targets.

Clan "battle language" is a joke. I had no problem figuring out the meanings from context without knowing the Russian or the Mongolian loan words. Thanks for the straw man. I never said they never coordinated in battle. Read the second Jade Phoenix book for a nice Clan on Clan battle. You'll notice coordination with lots of emphasis on single combat.

Then what is the argument? That the clans don't use tactics? This when we constantly see them using outflanking tactics and etc? That they don't use combined arms?

Or are you simply going to argue that because the Clans prefer to engage each other one on one, this equates to them having no tactics whatsoever? This although by late 3050, the Clans no longer practise this against Inner Sphere targets, using Level 2/3 honour rules?

I have no idea what you want me to explain with Delta Galaxy. This is a culture that regularly uses powered armour and faces more conventional bandit infantry. Infantry explicitly operates under a different code than mech warriors because they can't succeed without teamwork and are much more prone to starting "grand melees", situations where team and group tactics are honorable. I don't see how anti-infantry tactics invalidate my point.

So........ what is your point? You argue that
1. The Clans don't use sensible tactics.
2.Artillery, combined fire or similar tactics are not something Clanners are comfortable with. Yet, Operation Revivial and the invasion shows that they are. They prefer to use zelbringen, but when ordered to, can reject it and fight just as efficiently otherwise. We seen artillery used to break fortifications, we seen elementals used in headhunters

Of the two, the only validity is that Clan mechwarriors prefer to stick to to their honour rules..

[Imperial Overlord]

Yes, a single warrior engaging multiple enemies, proving his individual prowess. Not ganging up on a single target with the rest of his star/lance. This supports, not disproves my point.

Except that this is the SOLE limitation on their combat tactic. The fact that mechwarrior targets are "limited". And this form of zelbring only applies to......... Mechwarriors. Not their elemental counterparts, although aerospace pilots occupy a gray area.

That's not true at all. Mechwarriors are the political elite of the warrior class because they engage in pure one on one combat more often than any other type of warrior. Elementals have to use teamwork against vehicles, but against infantry single combat is expected and solo vehicle or 'mech kills are highly esteemed. Elementals and aerospace pilots, to say nothing of naval or vehicle operators, are grossly under represented in the high ranks of almost every Clan. The Clans place the highest possible value on demonstrations of an individual's abilities. Nothing matters more than an individual securing his place in their breeding program.

Not during the first wave. Furthermore, you mistake the orbital bombardment of Edo with their tactical doctrine.
Edo refers to their disgust that civilians would dare fight, this when in Clan society, only Warriors can play at combat. While extreme, an equivalent attitude would be Germany reaction towards partisan warfare in WW1 and WW2.

The Smoke Jaguars have always been prone to extreme violence and collateral damage, even being censured by the Grand Council for how the put down a rebellion of their lower caste. Their complete disregard for zelbrigen in regards to enemies they consider unworthy is typical of their Clan. In short, massive casualties have always been part of their combat doctrine.

First wave victories are fairly meaningless. For the most part the Inner Sphere had its worst units at the Periphery border and they were hit by Clan front line clusters with no experience of their foe after the Clans had gotten a chance to get used to sneaky combat by smashing the bandit kings.

Their actions, always questionable do to their extreme bloodlust, dishonored their whole clan and caused the clans as a whole to bid away their warships./

Not because it violated the Clan tactical doctrine, but because it violated Clan culture and the ethos that Clan Warriors have to "protect" the weak.

Clan tactical doctrine is warships are only used against warships in duels to a specific level of damage. They are not used to bombard areas, let alone civilian areas. Those are the objects of conquest in Clan tactical doctrine, not the battle zone. The other Clans were disgusted by the killing, but they also don't use warships against ground targets. Warships duel warships, with wounded ones withdrawing under terms dictated by the batchall. They don't fight ground forces.

And not mercilessly using the high ground against your enemies isn't bright.

Also they still favored one on one duels and were stupid enough to get suckered into fighting the Genyosha in unfavorable terrain that the Dracs had prepared against them.

The batchall prepped the battleground. Period. And of course, how does ANY of this violate the fact that the Clans use combined arms? May I point out that Turtle Bay had SJ vehicles garrisoning Edo, and it was the eruption of riots, and the use of said vehicles machine guns in gunning down rioters that eventually caused the cascade reaction that led to orbital bombardment?

Smoke Jaguar and most clans don't list vehicles as part of their Touman. They are barely warrior caste, made up of wash outs, and used only against civilian rebels and members of the bandit caste. This is not an example of combined arms warfare. Nor is getting suckered into the Genyosha's trap a sign of intelligence or skillful warfare. The Clans think like duelists, not warriors, and it shows.

Ghost Bear had poor success against the Inner Sphere for the first half of the Invasion where they used typical Crusader tactics.

Errr...... The poor success was deliberately due to the fact that Clan Ghost Bear brought in the least amount of supplies. Crusader philosophy and the arrogrance of the Clans certaintly but has nothing about the Clans not using tactics.

When they came back, using more teamwork, they had more success They are also a Clan that possess a strong emphasis on team work which is a Clan oddity dating back to their first khans being a married couple.

Es Espirit De Corps is one thing, but the fact that they brought in more supplies and contracted both Steel Viper and PGCs is another. Furthermore, how does the fact that they emphasise teamwork devalue the fact that yes, the Clans use combined arms and other tactics?

Because the Ghost Bears are unusual in emphasizing teamwork. That's how they are exceptional. Pointing out an exception means its not the norm. Typical Clan tactics involve not bringing very many supplies. Battles are a series of brief clashes and then over. I don't have to tell you how important logistics are to warfare and under supplying your forces because you underestimated the enemy and failed to imagine his tactics isn't bright, especially after you've seen how dirty bandits can fight.

Jade Falcon was hyper conservative. They lost the Falcon Guards because one mechwarrior held them up in a pass they knew was mined (because they killed the engineers) in single combat. No sign of flexibility until Aidan Pryde and Tukkayid.

Yet, they used combined arms, outflanked enemy units, sent in headhunters, laid traps for guerillas............. All prior to Tukayid.

Headhunters are pure elemental units. Laying traps for guerrillas is not combined arms. Only using infantry and 'mechs is not combined arms. Not using vehicles and artillery when it would be wise to do so is not combined arms tactics. Outflanking is having faster 'mechs because you have better technology, not combined arms.

Really, do you fucking read any fluff?

Do you? The fact that Ghost Bear used the Omnimech flexibility to mislead Draconis counts of their mechs, leading them to believe they were facing superior numbers IS a tactic. Smoke Jaguar outflanking and using headhunter tactics? TACTICs. The use of combined arms? A given. Hell, Ghost Bear even used aerospace fighters as surveillance and path-finders, although the 1st wave and the belief that the FRR troops should be given a fair chance at combat as opposed to being bombed and sunk at sea caused a world to be reconquered by the FRR.
[\quote]

I didn't say they didn't use tactics, I said the Clans suck at them and mostly don't use combined arms properly. Aerospace surveillance isn't a new and intelligent tactic, it's ancient. Giving FRR troops a chance at fair combat instead of bombing is a duelist's decision, not a warriors. You make my points for me.
Yes there are exceptions. Thanks for that concession. Note that the advantage of engaging multiple targets at once is that Clan warriors don't expect it, one that Aidan Pryde used very successfully in his Trial of Refusal and Natasha Kerensky in her Trial of Position. Of course, they were unconventional thinkers and it wouldn't have been effective if it wasn't for the surprise.
The Wolves are the most innovative and progressive of the Clans, which allowed them to adopt to the Inner Sphere's way of war and do the best in the invasion. That's not a surprise. Steel Viper was a poor clan with a small Touman noted for 1) having good warriors 2) actually developing and using mass combat tactics on a regular basis. Even Smoke Jaguar tactics began to change as the invasion progressed because traditional ones weren't working well. I'm not arguing the war didn't make the Clans' better warriors, because it clearly did. The best example is how much ass the Steel Vipers kicked when they lost their Inner Sphere holdings and went on the offensive in Clan Space.
They don't use combined arms, for the most part. They use traditional Clan forces in traditional Clan ways, except when it's impossible. If the enemy is too well dug in to duel him out, they'll bring in artillery. To fight guerillas, they'll use vehicles and conventional infantry to free up their good warriors and because they only have so many resources.

The Clans, as a whole, are terrible at fighting wars. Their wars are ritualized with batchalls and bidding and designed not merely to acquire resources or territory, but to attain glory for those fighting it. Their tactics are designed to fight a foe with a similar mind set in a never ending low level series of conflicts. Their wars are first and foremost a means for the warrior caste to perpetuate their control of society and increase their individual power and prestige.

This shouldn't be a surprise. The amount of war material wasted in the Grand Melee stage of a battle of bloodright alone can add up to dozens of 'mechs. Trials of Position to graduate new warriors result in more losses and deaths. Strategically and tactically, the Clans suck at war.

They don't use sensible tactics. They don't combine fire, they give away intelligence in their batchalls, they don't use artillery except when they must, they don't use vehicles except when they must, they bid down their attacking forces to near parity with their targets. Near parity means they have a much higher chance of taking heavy loses or losing altogether. Allowing the enemy to choose prepared ground is fucking moronic if you can avoid it.

Headhunters are pure infantry attacking warriors outside of vehicles. This isn't combined arms. This is a good use of Elemantals, but this isn't something unique to the Clans. Special forces and decapitation strikes aren't new and DEST and Loki have more impressive records when it comes to this sort of thing.

The Clans aren't incapable of using intelligent tactics and strategy, but they are poor at it. Their society and culture is set up to perpetuate limited warfare with a very specific set of rules and iron taboos. Their superior technology and high levels of personal combat prowess allow them to execute high mobility strikes (as an example) well because they can make a fast 'mech with scary levels of firepower and put good warriors in those cockpits. But they as a society and as a caste fight wars very poorly. When they attacked the Inner Sphere they had the disadvantage of a long supply line, but had the advantage of a unified front, fighting a war entirely on enemy territory, vastly superior technology, and superior warriors. They ending up having to change their tactics because those advantages were not enough.

[PainRack]

That's not true at all. Mechwarriors are the political elite of the warrior class because they engage in pure one on one combat more often than any other type of warrior. Elementals have to use teamwork against vehicles, but against infantry single combat is expected and solo vehicle or 'mech kills are highly esteemed. Elementals and aerospace pilots, to say nothing of naval or vehicle operators, are grossly under represented in the high ranks of almost every Clan. The Clans place the highest possible value on demonstrations of an individual's abilities. Nothing matters more than an individual securing his place in their breeding program.

Except that the Clans RPG sourcebook explictly states that this form of zelbringen excludes Elementals. For Aerospace pilots, the limitation so far appears only vis a vis other fighter pilots, not against dropships or warships. The gray area applies to ground targets.

Indeed, we only see solo elemental combat in an honour duel from Trial of Grievances or the Bloodright.

The Smoke Jaguars have always been prone to extreme violence and collateral damage, even being censured by the Grand Council for how the put down a rebellion of their lower caste. Their complete disregard for zelbrigen in regards to enemies they consider unworthy is typical of their Clan. In short, massive casualties have always been part of their combat doctrine.

Except that the reason why Smoke Jaguar uses the tactics it does is not because they consider the targets dezgra. In this scenario, orbital bombardment was used not because they considered the targets dezgra, but rather, because of the cultural ethos that consider combat the sole exclusive province of warriors. We seen this attitude displayed amply in the Explorers Corps sourcebook, where Clan forces would destroy jumpships and other explorer assets that attempted to put up resistance, as opposed to surrendering.

First wave victories are fairly meaningless. For the most part the Inner Sphere had its worst units at the Periphery border and they were hit by Clan front line clusters with no experience of their foe after the Clans had gotten a chance to get used to sneaky combat by smashing the bandit kings.

And so? The fact remains that the Clans used tactics and maneveur in combat, this as opposed to what Harbringer was saying.

Clan tactical doctrine is warships are only used against warships in duels to a specific level of damage. They are not used to bombard areas, let alone civilian areas.

Ares conventions taken to the logical extreme.

True. There does exist a tactical limitation on Clan doctrine, with regards to naval forces and ground operations and I have to concede this aspect.

Smoke Jaguar and most clans don't list vehicles as part of their Touman. They are barely warrior caste, made up of wash outs, and used only against civilian rebels and members of the bandit caste. This is not an example of combined arms warfare. Nor is getting suckered into the Genyosha's trap a sign of intelligence or skillful warfare. The Clans think like duelists, not warriors, and it shows.

Say what? Since when was combined arms dictated that vehicles must form part of combined arms? The term simply means working with other supporting assets. The use of Elementals and aerospace forces in combat is proof of this. Hell, both Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar show how the use of combined arms interplay amongst each other, when they combined mech forces with aerospace elements in combat. In a particular incident from Invading Clans, Clan forces used aerospace forces to win air supremacy against IS fighters, bombed the centre of the IS formation tearing out their vehicles, used superior range to destroy the enemy mechs and when the IS used artillery, unleashed their fighters to neutralise this opening the way to a coup de grace against surviving ground forces.

Because the Ghost Bears are unusual in emphasizing teamwork.

And you keep stating this without showing HOW they're unusual.

That's how they are exceptional. Pointing out an exception means its not the norm. Typical Clan tactics involve not bringing very many supplies. Battles are a series of brief clashes and then over. I don't have to tell you how important logistics are to warfare and under supplying your forces because you underestimated the enemy and failed to imagine his tactics isn't bright, especially after you've seen how dirty bandits can fight.

That's not tactics. That's Clan strategy. And if you're think I'm arguing that Clan stragety and operational thinking is sensible, I'm not.

Headhunters are pure elemental units. Laying traps for guerrillas is not combined arms. Only using infantry and 'mechs is not combined arms. Not using vehicles and artillery when it would be wise to do so is not combined arms tactics. Outflanking is having faster 'mechs because you have better technology, not combined arms.

Shifting goalposts. We're talking tactics.

I didn't say they didn't use tactics, I said the Clans suck at them and mostly don't use combined arms properly. Aerospace surveillance isn't a new and intelligent tactic, it's ancient. Giving FRR troops a chance at fair combat instead of bombing is a duelist's decision, not a warriors. You make my points for me.

And pray tell, how does any of these actions show they SUCK at using tactics? Hell, the Clans even perfected the tactic of combining firepower and maneveurability to conduct frontal assaults against prepared Inner Sphere positions.
Or is it somehow "stupid" that the Clans use their superior technology and training to fight a war? If that is so, the American Army obviously sucks.

Clan culture and honour meant that the entire invasion represents an OOC problem for them. However, there is nothing to suggest that they don't adapt, albeit with varying levels of difficulty tactically.

Yes there are exceptions. Thanks for that concession. Note that the advantage of engaging multiple targets at once is that Clan warriors don't expect it, one that Aidan Pryde used very successfully in his Trial of Refusal and Natasha Kerensky in her Trial of Position. Of course, they were unconventional thinkers and it wouldn't have been effective if it wasn't for the surprise.

Er, no. They were superior warriors who managed to successfully engage and destroy multiple targets successfully. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Natasha Kerensky opponents were so shocked that they allowed her her victory.

The Wolves are the most innovative and progressive of the Clans, which allowed them to adopt to the Inner Sphere's way of war and do the best in the invasion. That's not a surprise. Steel Viper was a poor clan with a small Touman noted for 1) having good warriors 2) actually developing and using mass combat tactics on a regular basis. Even Smoke Jaguar tactics began to change as the invasion progressed because traditional ones weren't working well. I'm not arguing the war didn't make the Clans' better warriors, because it clearly did. The best example is how much ass the Steel Vipers kicked when they lost their Inner Sphere holdings and went on the offensive in Clan Space.

Except that you provided no proof whatsoever that the Clans "tactics" sucks other than claiming that they do. Hell, the Clan Steel Viper mass combat tactic you're so fond of talking about? Its mentioned explictly in Invading Clans that its an evolution of the Smoke Jaguar tactic used against the Draconis Combine, and since Viper used it against Clan forces, suggest that Smoke Jaguar didn't invent this tactic in 3050.

They don't use combined arms, for the most part. They use traditional Clan forces in traditional Clan ways, except when it's impossible. If the enemy is too well dug in to duel him out, they'll bring in artillery. To fight guerillas, they'll use vehicles and conventional infantry to free up their good warriors and because they only have so many resources.

Intergration of elementals and mechs plus aerospace fighters= combined arms.

The Clans, as a whole, are terrible at fighting wars. Their wars are ritualized with batchalls and bidding and designed not merely to acquire resources or territory, but to attain glory for those fighting it. Their tactics are designed to fight a foe with a similar mind set in a never ending low level series of conflicts. Their wars are first and foremost a means for the warrior caste to perpetuate their control of society and increase their individual power and prestige.

Wars /= tactics.

This shouldn't be a surprise. The amount of war material wasted in the Grand Melee stage of a battle of bloodright alone can add up to dozens of 'mechs. Trials of Position to graduate new warriors result in more losses and deaths. Strategically and tactically, the Clans suck at war.

They don't use sensible tactics. They don't combine fire, they give away intelligence in their batchalls, they don't use artillery except when they must, they don't use vehicles except when they must, they bid down their attacking forces to near parity with their targets. Near parity means they have a much higher chance of taking heavy loses or losing altogether. Allowing the enemy to choose prepared ground is fucking moronic if you can avoid it.

The bidding process is ritualised so that opponents must manage the bids to gain tactical advantages. Remember the quote from Wolf Sourcebook that states battle begins at the bidding process?

Headhunters are pure infantry attacking warriors outside of vehicles. This isn't combined arms. This is a good use of Elemantals, but this isn't something unique to the Clans. Special forces and decapitation strikes aren't new and DEST and Loki have more impressive records when it comes to this sort of thing.

Ahem. Tactics. Not combined arms.

The Clans aren't incapable of using intelligent tactics and strategy, but they are poor at it.

Proof? The Clans even successfully used deception to conceal how many forces they used to attack worlds after the Inner Sphere disregarded batchall. Both Nova Cat and Ghost Bear have done this via different tactics.

[DrStrangelove]

someone needs to direct spocktard to wikipedia or loan him some money for encyclopedia britannica so he can look up muzzle energy and plasma...

[PainRack]

BTW Overlord, you're right about the mech numbers.
Mercenary Handbook 3055

medium Mechs comprise more than 40 percent of all Battlemechs in use.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not going to quote and paste because it's getting annoying to keep straight.

Elementals engage more powerful elements as a team because they must. Against other infantry they engage them solo and individual Elementals will engage 'mechs and vehicles solo if they thank they can take them out that way. The novel of the Alshain War shows that clearly. When those Elementals succeed they are given enormous respect, instead of being treated like reckless idiots. They are exempt from being considered dishonourable for group fighting, but still exhalt single combat as preferable.

The Clans do practice a form of combined arms, but they do it poorly because they deliberately do not deploy useful arms like artillery and armour that they have access to but don't want to use.

The Ghost Bears are specifically noted as emphasizing team work in the Clan's description, which makes the close cooperation between infantry units and battlemechs that the Clan demonstrates a unique feature of that Clan, not a Clan wide feature. This isn't a black/white all or none fallacy, but a simple statement that they are near the pinnacle of Clan combined arms/team work tactics and they're still a bunch of macho guys who live for mono on mono combat.

They rely on superior technology and skills instead of superior tactics. Kerensky won not only because her superior skills and 'mech (she was in a custom configured Dire Wolf) but because she employed tactics that her opponents were not prepared to deal with and had the advantage of surprise. The surprise and her opponent's confusion helped, despite over a year of war in the Inner Sphere were non-Clan tactics were common. That demonstrates the rigidity of thought common to the Clans, even among Clan Wolf. Thurston's Clan novels, which are pretty damn good, show Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar to be even worse.

I've given a long list of what the Clans do poorly. You've refuted none of it. The batchall where they list defending forces, their lack of combining fire, their emphasis on single combat, their reluctance to employ artillery except against hardened positions, their disdain of vehicles, their willingness to allow the enemy to fight them in prepared grounds and use their dueling traditions against them and so on and so forth. A modern military, since you brought them up, would do none of these things. They have the skills and technology that allow them to brute force through these weaknesses initially, but then they start losing when those advantages disappear.

Clan tactics are based around the assumptions that the enemy will be fighting in the same way and they don't change. Even something as simple as massing fire when it's advantageous doesn't happen.

Your bidding rebuttal only proves my point. Clan ideology is that bidding allows the commander to demonstrate his superior abilities (again, the paramount importance of determining individual achievement). That the Clans consider themselves superior for doing it doesn't make it smart or wise. If that's the standard, then the Jade Falcons are superior to all Clans because they say so.

I have never seen that claim that Steel Viper tactics are based on Smoke Jaguar ones. Evidence please.

EDIT: I'm not trying to claim no Clansman ever came up with an intelligence tactic. I am saying their honour code, social morals, conformist culture, and rules of war place strong limitations on their tactics and capacity to innovate. Their limitations are routinely exploited by their Inner Sphere opponents and the Clans adapt to the changing conditions slowly, if at all.

[PainRack]

Elementals engage more powerful elements as a team because they must. Against other infantry they engage them solo and individual Elementals will engage 'mechs and vehicles solo if they thank they can take them out that way. The novel of the Alshain War shows that clearly. When those Elementals succeed they are given enormous respect, instead of being treated like reckless idiots. They are exempt from being considered dishonourable for group fighting, but still exhalt single combat as preferable.

Test of Vengenance and the protaganist is an Elemental who abuses the concept of Zelbringen so badly that he was censured by his sibko-mate for challenging an Atlas mano al mano. Its simply the exception to the norm.

The Clans do practice a form of combined arms, but they do it poorly because they deliberately do not deploy useful arms like artillery and armour that they have access to but don't want to use.

And as I state, that's more an issue of the nerfing of artillery than Clan sensibility.

The Ghost Bears are specifically noted as emphasizing team work in the Clan's description, which makes the close cooperation between infantry units and battlemechs that the Clan demonstrates a unique feature of that Clan, not a Clan wide feature.

Except that this emphasis is due more to their ritual of Clawing. The placement of more elementals in high command means that Clan Ghost Bear certainly does place more value on Elementals, however, it in no way suggest that the use of combined arms or innovative infantry tactics belong to that Clan alone, nor does it explain the fact that other Clans do coordinate their attacks and offensives.
To put it simply, there has to be a reason why ALL the invading Clans used combined arms and coordinated assaults, intergrating their offensive elements into a cohesive plan. We cannot simply say "oh, the Clans changed their tactics in response to Inner Sphere treachery", because we seen such tactics used during the 1st wave itself. Unless one believes that the Invading Clans are tactically superior to the home clans, this use of combined arms and coordinated attacks suggest that the Home Clans have similar tactical expertise.

This isn't a black/white all or none fallacy, but a simple statement that they are near the pinnacle of Clan combined arms/team work tactics and they're still a bunch of macho guys who live for mono on mono combat.

Right. That's why Khan Leroux, an aerospace fighter pilot was able to lead mechs into battle against the Dracs and used aerospace fighters to demolish artillery units. That's why against the Hussars on Thule, a GB Star Colonel actually broke his bid to call in aerospace fighters to silence the Hussars artillery units covering the Hussars withdrawal. The Clans are so macho and refused to coordinate their attacks, that Sakhan Weaver of Smoke Jaguar, who won the bid to invade Santander World by eliminating her mech insisted on coordinating the battle from her command dropship. The Smoke Jaguars used combined arms when facing off against the fourteenth legion of Vega on Edo itself, using aerospace fighters to strafe a column of DCMS heavy tanks, destroing their armor while the Mechs used their longer ranges to begin firing first. Against Niiro aerospace and infantry elements, the Clan despatched their own infantry and aerospace elements to eliminate them, protecting their Mech flank before successfully occupying Edo spaceport and ending organised military resistance.

Clearly, all these examples show that the Clans are so focused on honour that they would refuse to use supporting elements properly, indeed, the fact that they broke their bid to call in aerospace elements is CLEAR proof that they're so focused on honour that they would not use supporting arms.

I've given a long list of what the Clans do poorly. You've refuted none of it.

Actually, I did. You simply say that the Clans don't use combined arms, because they don't use vehicles and artillery. This despite the fact that we know they could and have used both elements when neccessary, and the fact that in Btech, the nerfing of artillery has shifted the emphasis to aerospace fighters. I shown an enitre plethora of situations where the invading clans use tactics, combined arms and you simply keep insisting these are exceptions to the norm.

The batchall where they list defending forces, their lack of combining fire, their emphasis on single combat, their reluctance to employ artillery except against hardened positions, their disdain of vehicles, their willingness to allow the enemy to fight them in prepared grounds and use their dueling traditions against them and so on and so forth.

Except that while all of these point out the Clan OOC problem with regards to their operational concepts of war, they do not disprove the fact that the Clans do use tactics.

Clan tactics are based around the assumptions that the enemy will be fighting in the same way and they don't change. Even something as simple as massing fire when it's advantageous doesn't happen.

Right. That's why Viper Coil does use massed fire, and the Clan honour rules have changed so that Clan untis do use massed fire against Inner Sphere oponents.
Long range fire? Crossbow TRO entry, Clan Steel Viper unveiled the Crossbow for the first time against an enclave of Clan Smoke Jaguar...... and the unique Mechs whittled away at their opponents at long range.
There's also the battle of Courchevel where the frustration of a Smoke Jaguar warrior led to him firing on two opponents at once, and Clan Nova Cat immediately escalating this to a general meelee.

Your bidding rebuttal only proves my point. Clan ideology is that bidding allows the commander to demonstrate his superior abilities (again, the paramount importance of determining individual achievement).

Sigh.The quote states that the Commander must weigh pirorities carefully and use the bid to gain tactical advantages. It works in their concept of war, and frankly, the fact that Inner Sphere commanders are able to use deception and manipulate the batchall simply says that the IS know how to play at that game too. Its not as if Clan commanders don't do it too. Elementals vs Delta Galaxy Nova Cats show this amply.
Just because a commander win honour for taking the objective with miminal resources is not something negative! The inverse is similarly applicable. Clan commanders who lose the battle because they're underbid is also dishonoured.

I have never seen that claim that Steel Viper tactics are based on Smoke Jaguar ones. Evidence please.

The two columns of Mechs in Viper Maw? Its an elaboration of Smoke Jaguar use of Mechs and elementals to strike into the enemy front line. The difference is that Viper adds on the "maw", a long line of Mechs to engage the enemy while Smoke Jaguar places everything on that single frontal assault.

EDIT: I'm not trying to claim no Clansman ever came up with an intelligence tactic. I am saying their honour code, social morals, conformist culture, and rules of war place strong limitations on their tactics and capacity to innovate. Their limitations are routinely exploited by their Inner Sphere opponents and the Clans adapt to the changing conditions slowly, if at all.

To me, what it seems is that you're confusing the Clan operational and strategic capabilities with their tactical expertise. Their way of making war, which was essentially limited aggression means that they're not culturally suited to the Inner Sphere model of limited warfare.
I would point out that this swing both ways. I need to dig through either Wolf or Jade Falcon sourcebook, but one of these sourcebook explictly says that the reason why Clan frontal assaults work and the speed of Clan success is because the Inner Sphere is utterly too used to unconclusive raiding and battles and the aversion to frontal assaults.

[Imperial Overlord]

Test of Vengenance and the protaganist is an Elemental who abuses the concept of Zelbringen so badly that he was censured by his sibko-mate for challenging an Atlas mano al mano. Its simply the exception to the norm.

Doesn't hurt his career though does it? He's a ristar.

And as I state, that's more an issue of the nerfing of artillery than Clan sensibility.

Tanks can kick a large amount of ass. Arrow IV is bloody lethal and the Naga packs two of them in one ,mech. And Clans hate to use both. This isn't an issue of nerfing.

Except that this emphasis is due more to their ritual of Clawing. The placement of more elementals in high command means that Clan Ghost Bear certainly does place more value on Elementals, however, it in no way suggest that the use of combined arms or innovative infantry tactics belong to that Clan alone, nor does it explain the fact that other Clans do coordinate their attacks and offensives.
To put it simply, there has to be a reason why ALL the invading Clans used combined arms and coordinated assaults, intergrating their offensive elements into a cohesive plan. We cannot simply say "oh, the Clans changed their tactics in response to Inner Sphere treachery", because we seen such tactics used during the 1st wave itself. Unless one believes that the Invading Clans are tactically superior to the home clans, this use of combined arms and coordinated attacks suggest that the Home Clans have similar tactical expertise.

I do suggest the Invading Clans are superior. In fact Clan history proves they are. The fought trials for the right to invade. Only the best Clans succeeded in getting an invasion corridor. Integrating Elementals into their tactics doesn't make the Clans tactically skilled or their combined arms practice anything other than rudimentary.

This isn't a black/white all or none fallacy, but a simple statement that they are near the pinnacle of Clan combined arms/team work tactics and they're still a bunch of macho guys who live for mono on mono combat.

Clearly, all these examples show that the Clans are so focused on honour that they would refuse to use supporting elements properly, indeed, the fact that they broke their bid to call in aerospace elements is CLEAR proof that they're so focused on honour that they would not use supporting arms.

They can use their supporting arms. Of course all your examples are of using a single arm against a single element, like bombing tanks. No coordinated assaults, no using arbitrarily disgraceful units like artillery or tanks. None of this proves the Clans are good at combined arms. It just means they know how to call in an air strike or reinforcements.

I've given a long list of what the Clans do poorly. You've refuted none of it.

Actually, I did. You simply say that the Clans don't use combined arms, because they don't use vehicles and artillery. This despite the fact that we know they could and have used both elements when neccessary, and the fact that in Btech, the nerfing of artillery has shifted the emphasis to aerospace fighters. I shown an enitre plethora of situations where the invading clans use tactics, combined arms and you simply keep insisting these are exceptions to the norm.

I say they do it poorly. You haven't refuted this. You've arbitrarily labelled artillery ineffective, which hasn't been my experience at all. I've seen humble Long Toms wreck havoc and Arrow IV wreck immense carnage. All you've demonstrated that within their self imposes straight jacket that rejects vehicles and artillery and places single combat on a pedestal they can act with certain degrees of competency. Every incident that I've counted as a exception you have no counter argument for.

The batchall where they list defending forces, their lack of combining fire, their emphasis on single combat, their reluctance to employ artillery except against hardened positions, their disdain of vehicles, their willingness to allow the enemy to fight them in prepared grounds and use their dueling traditions against them and so on and so forth.

Except that while all of these point out the Clan OOC problem with regards to their operational concepts of war, they do not disprove the fact that the Clans do use tactics.

Yes, and my argument is that strategically and tactically the Clans suck. Not the strawman that they don't use any, but the reality that they are weak in this area. That they use tactics and sometimes perform well thanks to their massive technological edge and considerable skills at operating their war machines doesn't make the Clans good tacticians or strategists. The only

Clan tactics are based around the assumptions that the enemy will be fighting in the same way and they don't change. Even something as simple as massing fire when it's advantageous doesn't happen.

Right. That's why Viper Coil does use massed fire, and the Clan honour rules have changed so that Clan untis do use massed fire against Inner Sphere oponents.

Steel Vipers. Again. And Clan eventual adaptation to Inner Sphere ways of making war. It only took them about two decades. Not bad for Clanners.

Long range fire? Crossbow TRO entry, Clan Steel Viper unveiled the Crossbow for the first time against an enclave of Clan Smoke Jaguar...... and the unique Mechs whittled away at their opponents at long range.

Since I never said the Clans don't use long range fire, this disproves nothing. Clans love long range fire. They're good shots, their weapons have better ranges, and they hate physical combat.

There's also the battle of Courchevel where the frustration of a Smoke Jaguar warrior led to him firing on two opponents at once, and Clan Nova Cat immediately escalating this to a general meelee.

Grand Melee's happen. What's the point of this one, other than proving the Nova Cats in that case were quickly able to take advantage of an atypical action by a Smoke Jaguar? That some Clan officers are able to react quickly and change their tactics when their honor rules are infringed and they believe they can do so? Then granted. It doesn't hurt my case because if they were just a little bit better, then they wouldn't have to wait for the Smoke Jaguar to start the Grand Melee. Aidan Pryde and Kerensky would have started it themselves.

Sigh.The quote states that the Commander must weigh pirorities carefully and use the bid to gain tactical advantages. It works in their concept of war, and frankly, the fact that Inner Sphere commanders are able to use deception and manipulate the batchall simply says that the IS know how to play at that game too. Its not as if Clan commanders don't do it too. Elementals vs Delta Galaxy Nova Cats show this amply.
Just because a commander win honour for taking the objective with miminal resources is not something negative! The inverse is similarly applicable. Clan commanders who lose the battle because they're underbid is also dishonoured.

Inner Sphere commanders know how to take advantage of it because its obvious, not because they have some arcane similar procedure. The reason why the Clans do it is because it is the Clan Way. Full stop, no thought required. The reason it was implemented was to maintain the perpetual low level warfare of Clan society that was supposed to produce superior warriors. If the Clans could think for themselves, they would realize it has no purpose in dealing with a foreign enemy, but that's discouraged.

I have never seen that claim that Steel Viper tactics are based on Smoke Jaguar ones. Evidence please.

The two columns of Mechs in Viper Maw? Its an elaboration of Smoke Jaguar use of Mechs and elementals to strike into the enemy front line. The difference is that Viper adds on the "maw", a long line of Mechs to engage the enemy while Smoke Jaguar places everything on that single frontal assault.

That's not evidence. Give me source that confirms that the tactic originates with the Smoke Jaguars. To my mind it seems far more likely that the Smoke Jaguars stole the tactic from the Vipers. Fuck, that's what I would do if I was a Smoke Jaguar and trying to figure out how to run mass "mech combats. Modify a known tactic from a Clan that likes to do it.

To me, what it seems is that you're confusing the Clan operational and strategic capabilities with their tactical expertise. Their way of making war, which was essentially limited aggression means that they're not culturally suited to the Inner Sphere model of limited warfare.
I would point out that this swing both ways. I need to dig through either Wolf or Jade Falcon sourcebook, but one of these sourcebook explictly says that the reason why Clan frontal assaults work and the speed of Clan success is because the Inner Sphere is utterly too used to unconclusive raiding and battles and the aversion to frontal assaults.

I'm not confusing them. I'm saying they are linked. They aren't suited to fighting anything but their own ritualized form of warfare and they adapt extremely slowly. Tukkayid was basically a gigantic "let's use everything we know about the Clans to rape them" battle, with most of the Clans being completely unable to look passed their biases despite years of warfare and multiple humiliating defeats by the Inner Sphere.

The Clans did have strong initial advantages over the Inner Sphere, when they enjoyed the elements of surprise, high technology, their impressive skills, and a different mode of fighting wars. The Inner Sphere adapted quickly to these tactics and the new realities of war. Two years latter, most Clans were still fighting the same way when they hit Tukkayid. Hell, some of the Crusader Clans bid away troops because they were sure it was a cake walk and wanted to land earlier.

The Clans do not react well to new conditions. They do not utilize valuable military assets because of their honor code. They are extremely conservative and discourage innovation or deviation from the norm (as a whole, yes some Clans are much less so). They are, for the most part, inflexibly wedded to a narrow doctrine. Against the Inner Sphere their skills and technological superiority gave them numerous successes even with their disadvantages, but while that did bring them victory that doesn't make them good tacticians.

[PainRack]

Doesn't hurt his career though does it? He's a ristar.

His defeat of the Alpha Keshik and Atlas propelled him as a Ristar..... until he got his command and then faced resistance from both his superior as well as Lita who both debated his tactic. As well as his sibko-mate.

Tanks can kick a large amount of ass. Arrow IV is bloody lethal and the Naga packs two of them in one ,mech. And Clans hate to use both. This isn't an issue of nerfing.

Tanks are also inherently slower and less mobile than mechs. As for nerfing, I'm actually referring to reality vs battletech, where artillery is less mobile, less accurate and can achieve much less density and ROF than modern arms. Even in the Btech context where Arrow IV makes artillery effective again, Arrow IVs are simply too heat inefficient. Note the effective range and time delivery issue for Arrow IVs and compare them to the ingame aerospace elements and then come back and discuss whether Artillery has been nerfed.

I do suggest the Invading Clans are superior. In fact Clan history proves they are. The fought trials for the right to invade. Only the best Clans succeeded in getting an invasion corridor. Integrating Elementals into their tactics doesn't make the Clans tactically skilled or their combined arms practice anything other than rudimentary.

Except if they were so tactically superior, neither of the Home Clans would had been able to stand up to them on the battlefield, from Coyote to Ice Hellion and the like.

They can use their supporting arms. Of course all your examples are of using a single arm against a single element, like bombing tanks. No coordinated assaults, no using arbitrarily disgraceful units like artillery or tanks. None of this proves the Clans are good at combined arms. It just means they know how to call in an air strike or reinforcements.

Errr...... Read up Invading Clans again. I quoted an entire single battle, the battle for Edo. What happened was the Drac deployed in a wide wing, hoping to centralise their firepower in the centre and collapsing the attacker frontal assault. Unfortunately, the Clans broke that plan by bombing out the centre, using their range to destroy individual elements and when the Inner Sphere attempted to use artillery to cover themselves, unleashed aerospace elements to destroy them. Similarly, ambushing infantry units against lead Clan elements, which might had slowed down or forced mechs to turn away from the Draconis mech/vehicle line was turned aside by supporting elementals driven into battle via Omnimechs.

As for the Ghost Bear incident, again, pitched battle, the Clans were unable to pin IS forces down with mechs and artillery were disrupting their offensive, broke their bid and called in aerospace elements to disrupt the mechs then pinned mechs down, allowing mechs to catch up. How you can decry that this isn't combined arms is beyond me.

I say they do it poorly. You haven't refuted this. You've arbitrarily labelled artillery ineffective, which hasn't been my experience at all. I've seen humble Long Toms wreck havoc and Arrow IV wreck immense carnage. All you've demonstrated that within their self imposes straight jacket that rejects vehicles and artillery and places single combat on a pedestal they can act with certain degrees of competency. Every incident that I've counted as a exception you have no counter argument for.

How on god green earth is artillery somehow effective? Their range is what? 5 maps with a freaking long travel time. This when comparing them against aerospace elements? What are you smoking? How on god green earth is Artillery somehow not nerfed in the Btech universe when comparing it against real life elements?

Yes, and my argument is that strategically and tactically the Clans suck. Not the strawman that they don't use any, but the reality that they are weak in this area. That they use tactics and sometimes perform well thanks to their massive technological edge and considerable skills at operating their war machines doesn't make the Clans good tacticians or strategists.

Except you have YET to show how they suck tactically. You keep insisting that their victories is due to their superior technology, yet, this appears to be based on the misconception that because the Clans utilised the edge their superior tech and training give them, their tactics are thus "weaker".

Steel Vipers. Again. And Clan eventual adaptation to Inner Sphere ways of making war. It only took them about two decades. Not bad for Clanners.

]
By wave four, ALL the invading clans have abandoned parts of the batchall and utilise level 2/3 honour rules. Even Diamond Shark, which has only faced Periphery opponents used level 2 rules in the Battle of Tukayid. Are you daft?
Clan Nova cat ignored the batchall because they believed the IS commander was attempting to deceive them during their assault on the LAM factory complex.
Clan Smoke Jaguar massed firepower by Wave 3 against Inner Sphere opponents who did not fight in a stand up manner.

Grand Melee's happen. What's the point of this one, other than proving the Nova Cats in that case were quickly able to take advantage of an atypical action by a Smoke Jaguar? That some Clan officers are able to react quickly and change their tactics when their honor rules are infringed and they believe they can do so? Then granted. It doesn't hurt my case because if they were just a little bit better, then they wouldn't have to wait for the Smoke Jaguar to start the Grand Melee. Aidan Pryde and Kerensky would have started it themselves.

Bollocks. Even Kerensky was unwilling to abandon Zellbringen during the Refusal War. Hell, she was the one who decided to settle Twycross with a duel, remember? Her most unconventional tactics using deception, ambush and misdirection aside still did not force her to abandon single combat against the Clans.
This incident simply shows that the Clans are adaptive and willing to scarifice the form of the honour duel when neccessary. Your counter-proposal that real tacticians would be willing to abandon it to gain a full scale brawl is simply not seen in Clan culture or history.

Inner Sphere commanders know how to take advantage of it because its obvious, not because they have some arcane similar procedure. The reason why the Clans do it is because it is the Clan Way. Full stop, no thought required. The reason it was implemented was to maintain the perpetual low level warfare of Clan society that was supposed to produce superior warriors. If the Clans could think for themselves, they would realize it has no purpose in dealing with a foreign enemy, but that's discouraged.

Inner Sphere commanders have similarly screwed up the batchall, exposing themselves to more force as depicted in the Nova Cat entry in Invading Clans. As for why it was implemented, its not to produce superior warriors. Kerensky implementation was that he believed that warriors were aggressive in nature, and needed some form of outlet for releasing aggression in a controlled, limited manner. The Clans then continually shaped their edge because veteran soldiers ARE better soldiers.

But hey,its not as if the Clans stick to the batchall unthinking if the Inner Sphere don't. The Star Guards? The clans didn't. Smoke Jaguar by wave 3 abandoned the batchall in part against many opponents, because of Wolcott and to a certain extent, Luthien influenced tihs trend further.

That's not evidence. Give me source that confirms that the tactic originates with the Smoke Jaguars. To my mind it seems far more likely that the Smoke Jaguars stole the tactic from the Vipers. Fuck, that's what I would do if I was a Smoke Jaguar and trying to figure out how to run mass "mech combats. Modify a known tactic from a Clan that likes to do it.

Right. A "less" complex tactic evolves from a more complex tactic.......

I'm not confusing them. I'm saying they are linked. They aren't suited to fighting anything but their own ritualized form of warfare and they adapt extremely slowly. Tukkayid was basically a gigantic "let's use everything we know about the Clans to rape them" battle, with most of the Clans being completely unable to look passed their biases despite years of warfare and multiple humiliating defeats by the Inner Sphere.

Strategy leads to operations leads to tactics. That's obvious. The Clans poor ass strategy, in particular allowing Comstar to focus and concentrate their forces at Tukayid, or at Luthien, allowing the Draconis Combine to draw in more forces, hell, even Ulric advertising of their intention to invade Terra are all examples of poor strategy that cause the tables to turn against them tactically. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with "tactics" per se.
The Germans poor strategy in WW2 did not mean that tactically, their small units action were not brilliant.

Two years latter, most Clans were still fighting the same way when they hit Tukkayid. Hell, some of the Crusader Clans bid away troops because they were sure it was a cake walk and wanted to land earlier.

Stackpole contention is simply not supported anywhere in game fluff. Ingame fluff, the Clans committed their whole bid to the battle, suffering losses as usual. Indeed, Stackpole contention is similarly contary to other fluff regarding how bidding works! A Clan bid cannot be "underbid" again later during subsidary commanders. What would had happened is that bidding against specific objectives might have occured.......... The evidence that this actually happened however is not present.

The Clans do not react well to new conditions.

Errr............. Then pray tell, explain how and why the Invading Clans all did adapt to Inner Sphere tactics by Wave 1. The sole holdout was Ghost Bear, an extremely conservative clan.By Wave 4, operational concepts had become to face scrutiny amongst various Clans. Ghost Bear rehauled their operational concept of war, Smoke Jaguar realigned to use Comstar adminstration and used pyschological warfare against the Draconis Combine.

However, by the time the Clans did manage the learning curve, their immense strategic disadvantages came into play.