nBSG ep 4.15: "No Exit" Talkback (SPOILERS)

[Crown]

And I would say that "yes, it is", but then we'd be arguing in circles.

Blanket statements of opinion tend to be like that.

Except you're still missing that FTL is one localized area of the ship, with the likely ability that it can be compartmentalized if needed. The regen tech would be placed throughout the ship, not in just one area. And again, the FTL tech, while beneficial, is not necessarily a requirement. The regen tech is, if the ship is to stay in one piece. Hell, she's not even jumpworthy at this point.

Localised or not, if they didn't keep the Colonial FTL online (and there is zero evidence to support they could), their entire dependence is tied to the Rebels 3 episodes ago.

Um, not really.

Um yes really, quick timeline of events;

-Thrusts Cylon tech that needed to be installed by Cylons down the fleets throat.
-Finds out that Galactica will need some welding.
-States 'no Cylons to be used to weld'.
-Is shown the damage is far more extensive than previously thought and the only solution is plastering the ship with Cylon resin.
-Bulks at the idea.

You just stated that 6's and 8's were going to be used. They're Cylons, right? The Chief and Tigh are Cylons too, right? Therefore, "No Cylons...on my ship!" is not accurate. And the fact that he was willing to use Cylon tech to upgrade the FTL also nullifies the statement that there was to be no Cylon tech on the ship. Honestly, I'm not sure why you're trying to defend hyperbole that the show doesn't support.

Don't be obtuse. We are discussing his complete 180 over the course of three episodes. You just proved it. In episode 3.12 he's perfectly happy to use Cylon personnel to install Cylon tech, and in episode 3.15 he doesn't want Cylon personnel to do basic welding onboard his ship and then refuses Cylon tech. How is what I said in anyway not exactly as it happened?

I forget, did Adama insist on 6's and 8's, or was that Tyrol making that call? I guess Adama has more reason to trust 6's and 8's than he does to trust 2's. Irrational, really, they're all in this together.

Tyrol said they would need "teams of Sharon's and 6's ... possibly Leoben's just to do the installations" since he had no freakin' idea how to do it.

EDIT :: Ignore the below, it's wrong. Tyrol does indeed say that Galactica personnel couldn't do it, but the presumption that the Cylon FTL must be installed was a forgone conclusion

Wrong about this;
**And for the record, that the Cylon's had to install the suckers was a forgone conclusion in the conversation; it all started with how they couldn't just force the fleet to allow Cylons on board.**

[apocolypse]

Don't be obtuse. We are discussing his complete 180 over the course of three episodes. You just proved it. In episode 3.12 he's perfectly happy to use Cylon personnel to install Cylon tech, and in episode 3.15 he doesn't want Cylon personnel to do basic welding onboard his ship and then refuses Cylon tech. How is what I said in anyway not exactly as it happened?

Obtuse? You're the one insisting that Adama won't allow Cylons or Cylon tech on his ship while completely glossing over the fact that he currently has Cylons on his ship, he reinstated one of them back to crew status, and he's allowing Cylons to upgrade the FTL with their own tech. I have no idea why we're even discussing this since this has already happened. Yes, Adama did have an issue and initially refuse the bioregen tech, but that's not the overall point. You're (unless I've totally misread the quote/initial post) stating that Adama is not point blank allowing Cylons or their tech on their ship. That is incorrect since it's strawmanning Adama's stance. "I will not allow X Cylon tech!" ! = "I will not allow Cylon tech!" The same with the personnel. He's got Cylons on board. He knows they're Cylons. It would only be a 180 if he kicked all the Cylons off and refused any Cylon tech upgrades, including reneging on the FTL. He did not do so.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That they spent an episode basically explaining everything by using Ellen and Samuel doesn't bother me in the slightest. I was happy for it. Off the top of my head (granted, I'm not a writer) the only other way things could be satisfactorily explained would be through the use of gratuitous amounts of flashbacks, and I'm not particularly interested in a shitload of flashbacks going all the way back to Earth before the holocaust. Much better to just give the exposition in ~40 minutes and Move The Fuck On.

And seriously, what filler did Season 4 have? It's just not plausible to think that cutting out some scenes in more than ten episodes could come up with some other form of necessary exposition.

I concur. I don't see why episodes like this are frowned upon. You're telling me there's no way you can have a dialogue driven episode looking at past events from different perspectives and do it well? Pfft.

I also question the filler. We've had a lot of episodes that aren't directly related to the Cylon overarching plot, but that in no way makes them filler any more than any other TV show having a good episode that isn't off-axis in respect the key story. Doctor Who has plenty of such instances which work perfectly. I'm sure Moore and his staff could have tied this all up in two seasons tops if they had to, but guess what? That'd be shit. Focusing on things other than the nefarious Cylon plans derived from human defects is a good thing. I want to see how humanity lives without a planet and while on the run. Though I realise given a lot of people hated "Black Market" and I see constant whining of "whars teh space battlez!11", such tangents are frowned upon.

I guarantee these same people would be the first to complain if Moore went the Abrams route and took several seasons explaining things instead. Y'know, because good writing cannot involve major plot points taking place in a single episode. Well, now, that sounds like filler to me.

[Anguirus]

More from the writers

[LadyTevar]

[Many readers asked various versions of this question] How did Saul Tigh know Adama for such a long time?

Jane Espenson: They didn't meet until after the war. Saul was given false memories and introduced into life among humans at that point.

And there it is, from the Horse's mouth.

[Anguirus]

^ Well, we've known when Tigh and Adama met ever since early Season 2. The only mystery is how Tigh's records were falsified, and it's a minor one. Cavil could have simply infiltrated and altered the relevant records, as this was YEARS before anyone knew the "Cylons look like us."

[Crown]

Obtuse?

Yes obtuse.

You're the one insisting that Adama won't allow Cylons or Cylon tech on his ship while completely glossing over the fact that he currently has Cylons on his ship, he reinstated one of them back to crew status, and he's allowing Cylons to upgrade the FTL with their own tech. I have no idea why we're even discussing this since this has already happened. Yes, Adama did have an issue and initially refuse the bioregen tech, but that's not the overall point. You're (unless I've totally misread the quote/initial post) stating that Adama is not point blank allowing Cylons or their tech on their ship. That is incorrect since it's strawmanning Adama's stance. "I will not allow X Cylon tech!" ! = "I will not allow Cylon tech!" The same with the personnel. He's got Cylons on board. He knows they're Cylons. It would only be a 180 if he kicked all the Cylons off and refused any Cylon tech upgrades, including reneging on the FTL. He did not do so.

My God.

'Cylons' in this context clearly refers to the Rebels and not Tyrol, Tigh and Athena who he would refer to as 'Galactica crew' (from episode 3.12).

Your entire argument is; but he had Tyrol working on it so clearly he didn't mean 'no Cylons', which completely negates the fact that that's exactly what he meant, i.e. 'none of those other Cylons', you know the ones he was forcing down the fleets throat in 3.12?


I'm going to use ittsy bittsy words for you since you're completely incapable of basic understanding;

-Thrusts Cylon tech that needed to be installed by Cylons down the fleets throat in 3.12.
-Finds out that Galactica will need some welding in 3.15.
-States 'no Cylons to be used to weld'.
-Is shown the damage is far more extensive than previously thought and the only solution is plastering the ship with Cylon resin.
-Bulks at the idea.

That is 180 degrees right there. There is no strawmaning of what Adama did, it's a fucking play by play.

[JLTucker]

'Cylons' in this context clearly refers to the Rebels and not Tyrol, Tigh and Athena who he would refer to as 'Galactica crew' (from episode 3.12).

...you know the ones he was forcing down the fleets throat in 3.12?

-Thrusts Cylon tech that needed to be installed by Cylons down the fleets throat in 3.12.
-Finds out that Galactica will need some welding in 3.15.

This is season 4, you stupid motherfucker.

Since I did not post my thoughts earlier about the episode, I'll do so now. Overall I think this is a solid episode. It's great to finally receive answers about the Cylons' past. It would be even greater, to me at least, if no more information about Daniel is given. I am not a fan of the idea floating around that Daniel could be Starbuck's father. Keep it a mystery. We do not need complete closure.

The acting is solid in this episode. Stockwell did an excellent job and I agree with the assessment made earlier in the thread that if some amateur actor tried to pull off the lines he delivered, it would be hilarious.

[Vympel]

That is 180 degrees right there. There is no strawmaning of what Adama did, it's a fucking play by play.

I think it's pretty obvious that this episode is mere hours after the mutiny that was caused by his previous attitude, and so allowing Cylons on the ship to do repair work might be a touch sensitive at this very moment. Further, allowing Cylons free access over an entire Battlestar to do repair work is a world away from allowing them to upgrade just the FTL, which can much more easily be supervised. It's not a 180 whatsoever.

And I swear to God I typed that before I read the writer's answer the same criticism:-

Jane: This is about replacing the very bones of Galactica. About her not being her anymore, about Adama being forced to acknowledge the disease that's taking her away. It's about turning to the Cylons not just to help us but to make us and them the same. I see it as being an order of magnitude beyond the earlier decision.

Ryan: On some level, Adama is owning up to his responsibility for the mutiny – what was Lee’s line in The Oath about Zarek being right? – and is therefore reluctant to forge a deeper reliance on Cylon tech after the devastation it wrought. (Laura too, acknowledges her own responsibility by passing the baton to Lee.) Further, Adama is unwilling to accept that Galactica is in as bad shape as Tyrol says and his story in this episode is about him finally facing that fact.

[apocolypse]

Your entire argument is; but he had Tyrol working on it so clearly he didn't mean 'no Cylons', which completely negates the fact that that's exactly what he meant, i.e. 'none of those other Cylons', you know the ones he was forcing down the fleets throat in 3.12?

I find it odd that you state what my argument is, when you clearly don't actually know it. Did you forget that there were going to be other Cylons, aka the Rebels, working on the FTL upgrades? I don't see it mentioned in your "breakdown" of events. Not to mention you've neglected the fact that Adama agreed to allow FTL upgrades using Cylon tech. He did not kick the Cylons, including the Rebels, off the Galactica. He did not reneg on the FTL upgrade. It is not a 180. Yes, your original statement is a strawman of Adama. I'm sorry that you're incapable of seeing it, I'm not sure how I can make it any more plain.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

^ Well, we've known when Tigh and Adama met ever since early Season 2. The only mystery is how Tigh's records were falsified, and it's a minor one. Cavil could have simply infiltrated and altered the relevant records, as this was YEARS before anyone knew the "Cylons look like us."

And anyone who's ever read a Dean Koontz novel knows how easy it is to falsify your background.

[Solauren]

Or, you know, Cavil picked a dead Colonial officer with a resemblence to Tigh.

However, given the level of technological ability the Cylon's have with Colonial Technology, and the later planting of more Skin-job infiltrators, it's more then likely that the Cylon's would simply alter records for someone going to Caprica as saying they were from say, backwoods Picon (or wherever it was that the Colonials were anti-medicine /possibly anti-tech).

[Captain Kruger]

5 out of 5 without a second thought. Loved every second of it. Dean Stockwell manages to shine out of a cast of utterly outstanding actors.

Because of this cycle repeating over and over again, has anyone else considered that there might be a whole lot more Human/Cylon life out there that none of the characters know about?

[General Zod]

5 out of 5 without a second thought. Loved every second of it. Dean Stockwell manages to shine out of a cast of utterly outstanding actors.

Because of this cycle repeating over and over again, has anyone else considered that there might be a whole lot more Human/Cylon life out there that none of the characters know about?

Given there's still the issue of what the fuck the deal is with Kara, it's probably a good possibility.

[White Haven]

Did anyone else come away from that with the impression that Six and Tigh's kid is going to be Daniel? After all, Ellen had more than enough time to leave that little present with Tigh over time. It's been a while and I'd have to re-watch it, but wasn't a crib seen in the Temple of the Five on the algae planet?

[Captain Kruger]

Did anyone else come away from that with the impression that Six and Tigh's kid is going to be Daniel? After all, Ellen had more than enough time to leave that little present with Tigh over time. It's been a while and I'd have to re-watch it, but wasn't a crib seen in the Temple of the Five on the algae planet?

Hadn't thought of that but it might be a nice twist.

Regarding that missing Cylon, I'm hoping it isn't Starbuck because they've nudged us in that direction all season long...seems like it would be too obvious a conclusion. I'd rather it was a 'holy shit!' moment.

[Crown]

Your entire argument is; but he had Tyrol working on it so clearly he didn't mean 'no Cylons', which completely negates the fact that that's exactly what he meant, i.e. 'none of those other Cylons', you know the ones he was forcing down the fleets throat in 3.12?

I find it odd that you state what my argument is, when you clearly don't actually know it.

At this point sparky, I'm starting to wonder if you know what the fuck you're arguing.

Did you forget that there were going to be other Cylons, aka the Rebels, working on the FTL upgrades?

Yes I did, as shown by what I said here;

'Cylons' in this context clearly refers to the Rebels and not Tyrol, Tigh and Athena who he would refer to as 'Galactica crew' (from episode 4*.12).

... wait ...

I don't see it mentioned in your "breakdown" of events.

But the fact it was mention in the very same post was clearly not enough for you eh?

Not to mention you've neglected the fact that Adama agreed to allow FTL upgrades using Cylon tech.

WTF are you babbling on about? How else would you interpret point 1? (quoted again for reference)

-Thrusts Cylon tech that needed to be installed by Cylons down the fleets throat in 4*.12.

He did not kick the Cylons, including the Rebels, off the Galactica.

And if I ever argued he did, you'd have a devastating point, now find this argument.

He did not reneg on the FTL upgrade.

You like shadow boxing here? Quote me, anywhere, where I say he 'renegs on Cylon FTL upgrades'.

It is not a 180.

The act of forcibly incorporating Cylon Tech that needed to be installed by Cylons in one episode, and then in another forbidding Cylons to help weld and then rejecting Cylon tech that is actually you know necessary is.

Yes, your original statement is a strawman of Adama.

You are so far up your own ass it's unbelievable. Vympel posted the writers showing and justifying Adama's 180. Not saying there isn't one. What evidence beyond your own stupidity do you have to show otherwise.

I'm sorry that you're incapable of seeing it, I'm not sure how I can make it any more plain.

At this point sparky, it's evident that you can't read plain English, so one shouldn't hold out any great hope that you'll be able to express yourself accurately in the language.

This is season 4, you stupid motherfucker.

Correction noted and accepted you cunt.


*3's changed to 4's.

[Crown]

I think it's pretty obvious that this episode is mere hours after the mutiny that was caused by his previous attitude, and so allowing Cylons on the ship to do repair work might be a touch sensitive at this very moment. Further, allowing Cylons free access over an entire Battlestar to do repair work is a world away from allowing them to upgrade just the FTL, which can much more easily be supervised. It's not a 180 whatsoever.

It seems to me that people are somehow interpreting '180 turn' to mean; Go the opposite direction just as forcibly. Rather than enough of a radical shift from the past direction that it is noticeable.

Sure, there might be 'reasons' for it, but it hardly changes the fact that he is actually, you know, doing it.

Lets review;

4.12 - Forcibly install Cylon tech using Cylons to do so at gun point when you have no fucking idea how this tech works, how to maintain it or trouble shoot it.

4.15 - Ban Cylons from doing WELDING, that they can inspect and verify the work and are more than qualified to know if they are being fucked with and reject Cylon tech that is necessary for the continuing operation of your ship.

Not a 180 then what? 137? Give me a break here Vymp, you're splitting the hair mighty thin.

[Zac Naloen]

What exactly is your point crown beyond "He was being irrational"?

This particularly discussion seems to have gone beyond the point of actually have anything to comment on the episode and way way into nitpicking.

Adama was being understantably irrational because everything had recently gone to shit, the reason was getting cylons involved with the fleet, understandably he'd try to avoid doing that again so blithely. He changed his mind upon realising how fucked they are without Cylon help.

That's not nearly the big deal you are making it out to be.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Adama has emotions that come into play when he finds the ship he has commanded all these years is finally giving up the ghost? Who knew? Too bad he totally "137'd" his way back to letting the Cylons do what they can, making this whole point moot.

It's hilarious this debate has gone on for more than two posts. Now it's getting quite sad.

[apocolypse]

Crown, I'm not going to go through and do some line by line breakdown because it's way to time consuming for what is either a backpeddle or a misunderstanding. It's obvious that the entire post was demonstrating why it's not a 180 from his original stance, which is what you stated. I didn't say you made that argument, I'm showing why it's not a 180 shift. Except now you're staying that "180" doesn't mean "opposite" but is instead a noticeable shift. Vym's post has nothing to do with "justifying a 180" since you're apparently not using the phrase the way I or anyone else here uses it and he even states as much. "180" does mean "the opposite". He's not taking an opposite stance from his original. They posted why Adama initially refused one piece of tech while allowing another piece of tech. This is also part of the original statement from you that Adama wasn't allowing Cylon tech which is a strawman of his stance. He initially refused the regen tech, but did not reneg on the FTL. Therefore, he's refusing one piece of it, not the totality of it.

[Galvatron]

Is Earth supposed to be Earth in the distant future, perhaps after? I assume the skinjobs who came from Kobol to Earth knew they were cylons the whole time and never became monotheistic, which means RDM isn't even attempting to imply that we are cylons. Am I missing something?

Is it possible that there was an exodus from Earth due to the same nebulous calamity that happened on Kobol and those who left simply forgot that Earth was the original birthplace of humanity?

[General Zod]

Is Earth supposed to be Earth in the distant future, perhaps after? I assume the skinjobs who came from Kobol to Earth knew they were cylons the whole time and never became monotheistic, which means RDM isn't even attempting to imply that we are cylons. Am I missing something?

Is it possible that there was an exodus from Earth due to the same nebulous calamity that happened on Kobol and those who left simply forgot that Earth was the original birthplace of humanity?

I don't think BSG Earth is supposed to be connected to our Earth beyond superficialities. If it were supposed to be representative of our Earth, then there would have been human remains found along with cylons. All the bodies that were tested that were brought up to the ship turned out to be skinjobs.

[Galvatron]

If it were supposed to be representative of our Earth, then there would have been human remains found along with cylons. All the bodies that were tested that were brought up to the ship turned out to be skinjobs.

Even if humanity abandoned Earth long ago? I mean, there might be real human remains scattered in ancient cemetaries, but not in the nuked cities of skinjob-settled future Earth.

[General Zod]

If it were supposed to be representative of our Earth, then there would have been human remains found along with cylons. All the bodies that were tested that were brought up to the ship turned out to be skinjobs.

Even if humanity abandoned Earth long ago? I mean, there might be real human remains scattered in ancient cemetaries, but not in the nuked cities of skinjob-settled future Earth.

I suppose it's possible, but that really seems to be stretching things considering there were cities that resembled ones we have in the real world. If the original humans had left, what reason would they have had to abandon their planet if it were still habitable? Seems to be opening up a huge can of worms when a simpler explanation does the trick.