Of powered armor, mechs and feasibility.

[The Yosemite Bear]

So gundam is run by Orks, the Red ones go faster?

[Ford Prefect]

So gundam is run by Orks, the Red ones go faster?

More like Orks have a little Char Aznable in them.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So a cool looking but completely impractical vehicle might still have its place along the King Tiger

Minor correction, the King Tiger isn't impractical, inefficient but not impractical. The idea of the Tiger is actually very practical: Germany had less resources, period. Every tank lost is troops, ammunition, fuel, and steel lost. It's entirely reasonable that Germany would want a tank that could take on and beat a disproportionate number of other tanks at one time, they simply did not have enough of an engineering advantage in those areas to matter.

[Scorpion]

My take on the issue:

First of all, light infantry will never disappear. EVER. It can do things that other forces simply cannot do. In the correct environment, a light infantry force can operate undetected and remain hidden for years, if not decades. No other force can do that.

That said, I envision two types of "walkers" as possible:

The first type is a quadruped/hexapod design with a turreted weapon station, essentially a spider tank. I envisioned it mainly as a mountain tank, capable of negotiating mountain terrain. It also uses it's legs to change it's ground clearance, making it possible for it to make "pop up" attacks while on defilade or in urban environments.

The second example would be a classic biped machine, no more than 1/1,5 storeys high, armed with light autocannons (25-30mm) and shoulder-mounted AT missiles. Ideally, it should have manipulative surfaces that would allow it to climb buildings for the height advantage, but I don't know if the buildings could take it. Otherwise, they would also be used to remove barricades or AT barriers.

As every (credible) mech is just a walking tank, a mech, being much more complex and mobile (let's assume that they in fact are significatively more mobile), would never replace all tanks, so, logically, a mech could only thrive where tanks do not, namely mountainous terrain and urban warfare. That's the niche of mechs.

Second, while much of anime mechs are just plain ridiculous (I'm looking at you, Giant Robots!) there's one little-known show called Gasaraki from where I basically stole my 2nd mech idea. It goes to great pains to justify why the use of mechs in combat is plausible, especially in the 2nd episode. Don't worry, it gets worse! (In a sentence: Daemon-cloned propulsion system. :s)

The idea of power-armoured infantry as default seems iffy to me. I could see it work as an elite unit, but not as the standard. Each exoskeleton must cost thousands of dollars, even tens of thousands of dollars. So, to make the most of the capability of the exoskeleton, what do you do? You add protection for the most fragile part of the exoskeleton (the wearer) and a gun that can break the other guy's protection too. If left unchecked, that kind of arms race will lead into more and more powerful guns and heavier and heavier armour, until we're left with veritable battlemechs or the concept is discarded. But on the other hand, we have affordable, hand-held weapons today that were designed to go through tanks' armour, why should an exoskeleton be such a hurdle?

[PeZook]

But on the other hand, we have affordable, hand-held weapons today that were designed to go through tanks' armour, why should an exoskeleton be such a hurdle?

Thing is, those weapons were designed to hit tanks, not man-sized targets. If you can't take out an entire squad of infantry by shooting a shell into the group and massacring them with the blast and shrapnel, but instead you have to hit every soldier with a HEAT round, infantry suddendly becomes an order of magnitude more potent. A power armored squad becomes extremely hard to kill, even if it can't shrug off any particularly heavy weapons.

The feasibility and cost/benefit of armoring every soldier such is of course debatable.

[Night_stalker]

So gundam is run by Orks, the Red ones go faster?

Ya, da red unz go fastur! (note that is how a ork would say it)

[Scorpion]

Thing is, those weapons were designed to hit tanks, not man-sized targets. If you can't take out an entire squad of infantry by shooting a shell into the group and massacring them with the blast and shrapnel, but instead you have to hit every soldier with a HEAT round, infantry suddendly becomes an order of magnitude more potent.

To be honest, the real PA-killers wouldn't by RPG-7s and AT4s and whatnot (though those would work in a pinch), but instead anti-materiel rifles that have been popping up like mushrooms lately in every calibre from 12,7mm to 20mm.

Seriously, the venerable, WWII-vintage 14,5x114 could penetrate (IIRC) 35mm of RHS at 500m, I doubt any practical PA set could carry that much armour and remain capable. There were TANK with less armour than that, for god's sake!

Just take the ammo and simplify the rifle (we don't need all that accuracy in a battle rifle, do we?) and voilá! One anti-PA rifle ready to go!

The rebirth of anti-tank rifles, perhaps?

[[R_H]]

Thing is, those weapons were designed to hit tanks, not man-sized targets. If you can't take out an entire squad of infantry by shooting a shell into the group and massacring them with the blast and shrapnel, but instead you have to hit every soldier with a HEAT round, infantry suddendly becomes an order of magnitude more potent.

To be honest, the real PA-killers wouldn't by RPG-7s and AT4s and whatnot (though those would work in a pinch), but instead anti-materiel rifles that have been popping up like mushrooms lately in every calibre from 12,7mm to 20mm.

Seriously, the venerable, WWII-vintage 14,5x114 could penetrate (IIRC) 35mm of RHS at 500m, I doubt any practical PA set could carry that much armour and remain capable. There were TANK with less armour than that, for god's sake!

Just take the ammo and simplify the rifle (we don't need all that accuracy in a battle rifle, do we?) and voilá! One anti-PA rifle ready to go!

The rebirth of anti-tank rifles, perhaps?

Regular old grenade launchers would also be quite effective, and somewhat more portable than dedicated AT weapons or anti-materiel rifles.

[Purple]

You might also want to consider something like this but with AP instead of HE rounds to combat powered armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29

[[R_H]]

You might also want to consider something like this but with AP instead of HE rounds to combat powered armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29

I don't see any mention of muzzle velocity, but I doubt it's high enough to make AP ammunition feasible. And on such a small scale, it would be more difficult to armour against shaped charges than kinetic penetrators.

[Purple]

I know however, correct me if I am wrong but could you not pack a shaped charge into the warhead instead of a HE charge.

Also, the thing has a standard rifle connected if you encounter light infantry.


PS. I used AP to refer to any sort of round designed to penetrate armor, be it shaped charge, kinetic or anything else.

[Night_stalker]

True, but consider this: A Baerett is cheaper to make, and doesn't need high explosives. All it needs is a good shot to wield it, and a hiding spot fo the sniper.

[Purple]

But it can not be held and fired like a rifle. It needs to be fired like what it is, a sniper. It also needs a team of 2 highly trained individuals as opposed to your average trooper.

I am not saying that it would be ineffective but you can not fight a war with sniper rifles alone. In a power armor environment a weapon like this, combining AP and anti infantry capacity might be the future. Especially if exoskeletons and power armor become readily available. (But that hinges on how widely powered armor is deployed)
But even if it is rare on the battlefield I at least still see something like this being deployed 1 per squad as a support weapon if you happen to run into one. Similar how every squad has a light machine gun.

[Scorpion]

I am not saying that it would be ineffective but you can not fight a war with sniper rifles alone.

I present to you, the Magnificent KORD! Although it is a full automatic, full calibre, death dealing 12,7mm machine gun, it weighs in, along with the lightweight 6T19 bipod, at 32Kgs, making it arguably man-portable!

Now imagine a rifle section armed with 4 Barrets and one of these puppies...

Like Mr. T, I pitty da foo'...

[Night_stalker]

I have to admit that would render most Powered armor useless, and would make a lot of mechs very scared of the footsloggers.

[[R_H]]

I know however, correct me if I am wrong but could you not pack a shaped charge into the warhead instead of a HE charge.

Also, the thing has a standard rifle connected if you encounter light infantry.


PS. I used AP to refer to any sort of round designed to penetrate armor, be it shaped charge, kinetic or anything else.

Yes, there are shaped charges for grenade launchers, HEDP (High Explosive Dual Purpose, M433 for the M203, can penetrate up to 50mm of steel (RHAe?)).

Ah, ok, thank you for clarifying about what you meant. Well, a GL is useful on its own against light(er) infantry. HEDP, for example, has a fragmentation casing.

True, but consider this: A Baerett is cheaper to make, and doesn't need high explosives. All it needs is a good shot to wield it, and a hiding spot fo the sniper.

Less mobile than a grenadier though. Why are high explosives a problem?

I present to you, the Magnificent KORD! Although it is a full automatic, full calibre, death dealing 12,7mm machine gun, it weighs in, along with the lightweight 6T19 bipod, at 32Kgs, making it arguably man-portable!

Now imagine a rifle section armed with 4 Barrets and one of these puppies...

Like Mr. T, I pitty da foo'...

They'd either be barely able to move or couldn't carry much ammunition. However, things would be different if they had exoskeletons.

[Purple]

Imagine a standard light infantry squad.
1 squad marksman with a light anti tank rifle, 1 or 2 heavy support with an XM29 equivalent weapon (rifle bit included), and the rest with a standard assault rifle but with something akin to the K-bullet. (hopefully a much more modern anti armor round)

I think this could be fairly effective against any Heavy infantry target.

[Night_stalker]

Yes a grenadier may be more mobile, but a squad with a Barrett can use the rifle against both regular infantrymen and a mech without being wasteful. A 40mm 'nade is not intended to be wasted on 1 solider, but a whole squad.

[Iosef Cross]

I have to admit that would render most Powered armor useless, and would make a lot of mechs very scared of the footsloggers.

Well, actually not. That's because infantry wears armor today, even though it is ineffective to many weapons.

If power armor can be made considerably cheap (a few tens of thousands of dollars), and soldiers can be better protected with them than without, while being able to carry more and walk faster from longer distances, them I would imagine that all armies would give power armor as standard equipment.

[Night_stalker]

True, but take a look at a couple points that I have previsouly stated:

1. Power source: How would you give it juice, hook it up to a generator or something? If not that, then a battery that takes up who knows how much space on the armor which will be needed for armor, weapons and motors to run the damn thing.

2. Durability: If you want it fast and agile like the media makes them out to be, that means it either has weak armor, or somehting absudly light and strong, like say titanium which

[Shroom Man 777]

They'd be as scared as normal soldiers who're afraid of guns that can kill them.

[[R_H]]

Yes a grenadier may be more mobile, but a squad with a Barrett can use the rifle against both regular infantrymen and a mech without being wasteful. A 40mm 'nade is not intended to be wasted on 1 solider, but a whole squad.

Soldiers aren't alone, they're in fireteams, squads and platoons. Besides, at anything but very long ranges, it's silly to use an anti-materiel rifle against people.

[Purple]

Also, if I recall correctly its a 20mm grenade, not a 40mm one.

[Night_stalker]

I was genralizinig, but thanks for the correction. My point was that a sniper rifle has 1 advantage over a grenade launcher: Range. Some rifles have ranges that can be measured in hundreds of feet, while a launcher doesn't.

[Artemas]

I was genralizinig, but thanks for the correction. My point was that a sniper rifle has 1 advantage over a grenade launcher: Range. Some rifles have ranges that can be measured in hundreds of feet, while a launcher doesn't.

Hundreds of feet? When did this marvelous technological innovation come about? Being able to fire farther than 50m will revolutionize warfare!