Battletech Clan Invasion of UC Gundam Earth

[Batman]

One wonders why they NEVER do that in-universe...

[Stark]

Well it doesn't really matter; if they have better d-v then UC is doomed. I just don't care, because the massively-higher tech guys have to resort to newtonian physics to win because all their mechs suck so much shit.

EDIT - I'm looking at aerospace fighers and a 50t fighter packs a whole 3 medium lasers and ac/20. Ie, 3 pew pews and a 180mm low-velocity gun. How does this outclass mobile suits that are faster than the space shuttle. Even a Zaku's machinegun is 120mm.

[VF5SS]

An Aerospace Fighter is vastly superior to anything comparable I've ever seen in this era of UC Gundam in the air. Fighters > Flying Mobile Suits and UC fighters aren't exactly something to write home about.

wait what

have seen how fast the Tin CODs and Sabrefishes intercepted the AEUG invasion force during Zeta Gundam? Do you remember how many things in Gundam manage to fly with pure thrust alone?

Oh but right, Mobile Suits aren't as real because their artwork is better and not stolen.

[Commander 598]

The way I see it, it just means they have an army of underarmored Mobile Armors...maybe.

Even a Zaku's machinegun is 120mm.

How about a 180mm?

[The Dark]

At 1 g, we're talking a half year burn or thereabouts. How about no.

What's wrong with taking their time? They can get targeting updates via HPG on the way in. At any rate they would have to accelerate at 1g to take advantage of strategic modes lower fuel consumption.

Evidence for them having half a year's worth of fuel at one g.

Aerotech 2, pg. 37, Strategic Fuel Efficiency:
One Burn Day is equal to the number of tons of fuel used per day if traveling at 1 G of acceleration.

From 3057:

Fredasa (Corvette/Raider):
Fuel: 6,000 tons
Tons/Burn-day: 19.75

303.79 days of fuel at 1 G

York (Destroyer/Carrier):
Fuel: 9,000 tons
Tons/Burn-Day: 39.52

227.73 days of fuel at 1 G

Potemkin (Troop Cruiser):
Fuel: 10,000 tons
Tons/Burn-Day: 39.52

253.04 days of fuel at 1 G

Those are the only three Clan warships from 3057 capable of maintaining 1 G for at least half a year.

[Ford Prefect]

Their ships are larger and have more and longer ranged weapons.

Longer ranged weapons? Based on what? The only range figure that has been provided for Battletech is heavy naval PPCs with 'hundreds of kilometres', compared to Gundam having on-screen warship engagement ranges of thousands of kilometres. This is setting aside stuff like Colony mounted beam weapons that can hit targets at tens of thousands of kilometres.

Anyway, I think this 'move in at half the speed of light' thing is hilarious. Even if we accept that somehow the Clanners will do this (which they won't because there's no basis for it), they aren't moving fast enough to be uninterceptable. They're only moving at half the speed of light, they'll know they coming weeks, if not months away. At which point they can work out their likely trajectory and just throw junk in their way and watch as the Clanners self-destruct. Newton works both ways: clouds of empty tuna tins will ruin them.

[PainRack]

Whoa are we down to cheesing game stats now? Is there any examples of anyone in BT cheesing sublight and cargo space to do this, or are you just a munchkin?

Regardless, they get blown to shit no matter how they arrive. Oops.

There was an attempt to do so,however, the Star League fury teams successfully prevented the hijacked dropship from executing such an attack. As such, there is no mention of the relative speeds that were planned to be used, more importantly, the weapon was a kamikaze attack rather than a drive by shooting.

[PainRack]

Cool, so we've established that BT gets raped on the ground, in the air and in space, and only has a hope of victory if we cheese FTL and allow all kinds of concessions to BT.

No you haven't. Clan warships are still more heavily armoured than the Gundam equivalent and have comparable firepower.
Dropship sensors have the ability to detect mechs on the ground. No one here has even bothered to establish how Gundam weapons will be like on Btech armour or vice versa.

Its only in air, where Gundam has the advantage due to batshit maneveurability.

Neat. BT sucks so bad its hilarious. AC20 DOES 14 KILOTONS! You can't make this shit up.

Remember guys, this is why BT fights all their wars this way.

The NAC 20 using nuke rules does 10KT. The NAC using ke is potentially 0.9MT.

Of course, the inverse then is the x 10 damage conversion.

Hell, nobody even bothered to address the issues with regards to FanPro attempts to upgun btech by claiming that autocannons are ultrasonic to hypersonic. There has been no discussion of firepower whatsoever other than just comparing calibres. If that's the case, ac/5=100mm as per Marauder.

[VF5SS]

No one here has even bothered to establish how Gundam weapons will be like on Btech armour or vice versa.

Considering that the BT equivalent to a beam rifle can't even reliable destroy (or penetrate) a small building in one shot, I don't think Gundam has much to worry about.

Its only in air, where Gundam has the advantage due to batshit maneveurability.

You're just jealous because Gundam actually remember what "on the bounce" was supposed to mean. I'm sorry that Gundam decided that the basic laws of motion could be used for great choreography, which means Gundam tech is all about their awesome thrusters. Of course if you watch MS Igloo, even their giant tank-like robots are still stupid fast. I mean really, I like the Atlas but it's a sitting duck against a Dom, Gouf, Gouf Flight-type, of Gelgoog. Hell, Gelgoogs have jet engines in their arms just to fly better :3

[Commander 598]

Of course if you watch MS Igloo, even their giant tank-like robots are still stupid fast.

The Guntanks? Actually I don't think they were actually much faster than a regular guntank...they were just made to look like it while the opposition, aside from the landships, literally stood around with their thumbs up their ass. :p

Or were you talking about the Hildolfr? Because that actually was fast.

[VF5SS]

Yeah the Hildolfr was like, sports car fast. I thought the three special Guntanks were also pretty fast. At least they seemed to be hard for the Doms to hit accurately.

Honestly now that I think about it, even a Zaku could take an Atlas. Zakus are pretty good at dodging wire-guided missiles thrown at them and other stuff and then can boost jump. Puttin' the "mobile" in Mobile Suit.

[Commander 598]

I thought the three special Guntanks were also pretty fast. At least they seemed to be hard for the Doms to hit accurately.

They were probably moving faster than a basic Guntank, but keep in mind that a Zaku was gaining on them on foot at one point. It's plot incompetence, same reason two dozen Zeon troops and armor support literally stood around to get hosed by a flamethrower.

Honestly now that I think about it, even a Zaku could take an Atlas.

To be fair, the Atlas is several meters shorter and quite a few tons heavier. On the other hand the Zaku has substantially greater maneuverability and much more lethal armaments.

[Stark]

Are BT mechs shorter than ~17? Crazy. Weight isn't really comparable due to the different construction technologies (then again isn't Hilidolfir a 35m long tank that is 200 tons).

[Commander 598]

It kinda depends on who you ask... the MW4 manual puts the Atlas at about 13m but I've seen it higher. Most are ~10m. Then there's this: http://www.mektek.net/forums/uploads/po ... 206378.jpg

Hildolfr is essentially a slightly smaller, a lot lighter, and a lot faster Landkreuzer P 1500 Monster with a one man crew and a high velocity main gun.

[Imperial Overlord]

Btech mechs are less than 20 meters tall.

And the Clans are at the end of a year long logistics chain just to fucking reach Earth. They aren't going to be filling their cargo bays with nothing but fuel for a relativistic attack (that I've never even seen a hint at in Btech fluff and is entirely opposed to the way the Clans make war) because even Clan genetically engineered ubermenchen need to eat, drink, and breath.

This is sad. Btech is a low powered universe that treats even single use of a WMD as a big deal. Clan numbers are comparatively small. They're at the end of a very long supply chain going up against heavily militarized guys with big fleets who arm their mecha with tac nukes. It doesn't take a fucking genius to figure this one out.

[Ford Prefect]

Are BT mechs shorter than ~17? Crazy.

There's a scale model of the Atlas floating around which suggests that it could be 18m, but that's literally the only time such a height has been suggested. Most Battlemechs are smaller than late-UC Mobile suits which are positively diminutive compared to the monsters floating around in earlier dates. Admittedly the image of the Clanners encountering something like the Kshatriya or the Psycho Gundam is kind of funny.

[Balrog]

This is sad. Btech is a low powered universe that treats even single use of a WMD as a big deal. Clan numbers are comparatively small. They're at the end of a very long supply chain going up against heavily militarized guys with big fleets who arm their mecha with tac nukes. It doesn't take a fucking genius to figure this one out.

The Clans can shorten their supply lines by setting up supply depots and production centers closer to Earth, especially since there would be no one to stop them. They could even set something up in the outer portion of the Solar system even, where their FTL still works, especially since any attack force coming after it can be easily spotted and intercepted. Earth's fleets might be bigger but they have paper for armor compared to BTech; it'll be a case of quantity over quality. If Gundam starts using nukes than so will the Clans, and they aren't going to be the ones losing billions of people when the space colonies start being attacked.

[Stark]

There's a scale model of the Atlas floating around which suggests that it could be 18m, but that's literally the only time such a height has been suggested. Most Battlemechs are smaller than late-UC Mobile suits which are positively diminutive compared to the monsters floating around in earlier dates. Admittedly the image of the Clanners encountering something like the Kshatriya or the Psycho Gundam is kind of funny.

If Atlas is a premiere full-size mech, and it's small compared to a mass-production Zaku, that's pretty sad. No wonder the Zaku's guns are so much larger than the Atlas'.

At least everyone agrees that a mech won't even set foot on UC soil until everyone on it is dead. So... yay? Even if the clanners go 'totally unknown nerd fantasy strategy #24' all they get is a mass murder victory.

[Batman]

Excuse me, Gundam has paper for armour. Compared to BT, where dropships have armour massing considerably LESS than a coat of paint on something that size would.

[Stark]

Since individual Gundam rifles are apparently equivalent to Gundam battleship-grade weapons (but obviously with limited ammunition), it doesn't surprise me MS can take out their capital capital ships.

[Imperial Overlord]

They will certainly set up supply dumps, but this will take time and resources.

[They could even set something up in the outer portion of the Solar system even, where their FTL still works, especially since any attack force coming after it can be easily spotted and intercepted.

And? The Clan's fleets are tiny and have absolutely no experience in large scale fleet actions. They also don't fight that way and the political pressure to fight in the traditional way for Holy Terra is going to be considerable. That's a straight up batchall with a request about the forces that defend the Earth and bidding down their attack force. That attack force will fight conventionally and almost certainly get butchered. Only then will they even consider alternate tactics and those will be a hardsell with potentially nasty internal politics. And that includes Trials of Refusals and increasingly powerful Warden faction, especially when Crusaders start losing.

Earth's fleets might be bigger but they have paper for armor compared to BTech; it'll be a case of quantity over quality.

I have no idea how tough Gundam armour or how good their firepower is. I'll leave that to others. Nukes will still kill Clan vessels and this thread has made clear that Gundam will spam them. The Clanners aren't in a position were they can trade warships with anything like an equal basis. I've seen nothing to suggest a gross qualitative advantage of Clan warship tech over Gundam tech, although I know almost nothing about the Gundam franchise.

If Gundam starts using nukes than so will the Clans, and they aren't going to be the ones losing billions of people when the space colonies start being attacked.

A few problems:

1) The Clans don't fight wars that way. At all. So they aren't going to have many nukes with them. The rest are going to be on the other side of a year long supply chain.

2) Nuking dishonorable bandit trash who are throwing around nukes is acceptable, by Clan standards, nuking Holy Terra is not. Its fucking heresy.

3) Clan (warrior-caste) culture is based around service to the Clan and individual glory of the warrior. Since the warrior-caste has the political control, this matters. Mass battlefleet action and WMD use offers no glory to the overwhelming majority of the Clan warriors and will seem dishonorable to many. Since some of these warriors have the right to vote out their leaders and challenge winning votes to trial by combat, the Clans will suffer immense internal pressures not to fight this way. Added to this, the Wardens will be "we were right" and the invading Clans can't afford losses that will cripple their ability to defend their possession after the Crusade is over, because the Home Clans will be on them like a shark pack is they scent weakness.

[Stark]

A bit of quick research suggests that the MS dominance in Gundam is similar to the plane dominance in WW2; the large ships are useful, necessary and support MS, but the MS are smaller, difficult to engage and are capable of destroying the larger warships. That doesn't ncessarily mean the UC warships have no armour; there's very little information on armour perforamnce in Gundam, because it's not a spreadsheet simulator.

Something like a Musai carries 5-7 MS, and they could, combined, destroy it easily. Just like a carrier and its air wing.

[SAMAS]

You just described a temporary pirate point. The problem seems to be you've forgotten that jumpships have station keeping drives. They're pretty slow, but they don't need to be speed demons to keep up with an L1 point.

The problem with jumping to the normal LaGragne points is that in UC Gundam, they're generally occupied. Defensive satellites, debris fields, fleets, and of course the Space Colonies themselves, which are probably massive enough to have microgravity.

You also seem to have missed the implications of what you said. Any point that has sufficiently low gravity can be jumped to. IIRC in this solar system that is any point beyond about Neptune and interstellar space certainly isn't chock full of high mass objects keeping a jumpship from jumping in. So really, I'm failing to see the problem you two have for jumping into interstellar space.

Because we don't necessarily have a problem with it. (or is it even possible? Again, Battletech FTL is pretty rigidly defined). It's what comes afterwards.

[PainRack]

Considering that the BT equivalent to a beam rifle can't even reliable destroy (or penetrate) a small building in one shot, I don't think Gundam has much to worry about.

Oh please. This is also the same universe where said beam weapons had no thermal effects on humans just outside of the beam. DET? I don't think so.

You're just jealous because Gundam actually remember what "on the bounce" was supposed to mean. I'm sorry that Gundam decided that the basic laws of motion could be used for great choreography, which means Gundam tech is all about their awesome thrusters. Of course if you watch MS Igloo, even their giant tank-like robots are still stupid fast. I mean really, I like the Atlas but it's a sitting duck against a Dom, Gouf, Gouf Flight-type, of Gelgoog. Hell, Gelgoogs have jet engines in their arms just to fly better :3

The ability to maneveur in the air has virtually nothing to do with maneveurability on the ground.
Then again, Btech is the universe where its supposedly possible to evade laser shots.

Excuse me, Gundam has paper for armour. Compared to BT, where dropships have armour massing considerably LESS than a coat of paint on something that size would.

Oh please. Its the effectiveness that counts. If one takes the latest fluff as the sole sample, you get hypersonic and ultrasonic KE rounds simply bouncing off said armour.
Its one of the most aggravating aspect of FanPro, where they changed the universe weapons balance.

A few problems:

1) The Clans don't fight wars that way. At all. So they aren't going to have many nukes with them. The rest are going to be on the other side of a year long supply chain.

2) Nuking dishonorable bandit trash who are throwing around nukes is acceptable, by Clan standards, nuking Holy Terra is not. Its fucking heresy.

3) Clan (warrior-caste) culture is based around service to the Clan and individual glory of the warrior. Since the warrior-caste has the political control, this matters. Mass battlefleet action and WMD use offers no glory to the overwhelming majority of the Clan warriors and will seem dishonorable to many. Since some of these warriors have the right to vote out their leaders and challenge winning votes to trial by combat, the Clans will suffer immense internal pressures not to fight this way. Added to this, the Wardens will be "we were right" and the invading Clans can't afford losses that will cripple their ability to defend their possession after the Crusade is over, because the Home Clans will be on them like a shark pack is they scent weakness.

We BEEN through this before.
1. The Clans do use nukes. The response to a nuke attack is with WMD. Even prior to Jihad where we actually see the Clans respond with a doctrine of annihliation, we ALREADY seen this in effect with Clan Wolverine and the use of nukes.

2. Without knowing anything about Stone Clan allies objection, we have no idea whether they did oppose the use of nukes on Terra during the Jihad. We only know that the Clans remained supportive of Stone Republic.

3. And as already stated, honour rules aren't that applicable in space combat. What you get is duels between aerospace fighters, duels between dropships. Warships aren't applicable to single combat, same as how Elementals aren't applicable to single combat against mechs.

Clan loses this primarily due to the logistic, numbers and situation of Earth. Some of the descriptions here of Clan tactics and weaponery is bogus.

[Imperial Overlord]

Btech fluff is contradictory on weapon performance. Too much treating game mechanics as a tech manual. But the armour is supposed to be quite effective, in universe.

We BEEN through this before.
1. The Clans do use nukes. The response to a nuke attack is with WMD. Even prior to Jihad where we actually see the Clans respond with a doctrine of annihliation, we ALREADY seen this in effect with Clan Wolverine and the use of nukes.

I did say the Clan use nukes. In extremis, not as their standard doctrine of war. Clan Wolverine's annihilation certainly wasn't the normal way of the Clans making war. They certainly won't lead with them nor do they make extensive use of them or deploy large arsenals of nukes. The extreme distate toward Clan Smoke Jaguar's actions on Turtle Bay, where they didn't even us nukes, supports my point. My points stand.

2. Without knowing anything about Stone Clan allies objection, we have no idea whether they did oppose the use of nukes on Terra during the Jihad. We only know that the Clans remained supportive of Stone Republic.

We know the Clans hold Terra as sacred. We know Stephan Amaris is despised in part (they hate him for many reasons), for the damage he did to Terra. We do know the Clans avoid use of WMDs whenever possible. Its not a stretch to say using WMDs anywhere in its vicinity will be unpopular and military, not civilian, targets will be primary in the initial stages of the war.

3. And as already stated, honour rules aren't that applicable in space combat. What you get is duels between aerospace fighters, duels between dropships. Warships aren't applicable to single combat, same as how Elementals aren't applicable to single combat against mechs.

I said nothing about single combat, except that the majority of the voting warriors who control Clan politics, greatly favor it. Even Elemental warriors, who have to fight in groups, greatly esteem single combat. Naval bloodlines, where opportunities to show individual prowess are far fewer, are minorities in all Invading Clans and in all Clans save Snow Raven. Clans warship fights are limited duels to set amount of damage. They aren't single combat, but they are definitely limited, honour bound rules. Clan politics creates an immense pressure for a warrior to prove himself in the limited window of Clan combat life and having your violent political class agitate for battles that they can participate in will affect Clan politics and strategy. Nor is it a stretch to say Clan politics during the Invasion were volatile and the sudden appearance of Gundam Earth isn't going to help things.

Glad to see we agree on the overall outcome though.