Alien mecha designs

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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ford Prefect wrote:Gundam has flirted with FTL before. Otomo Katsushiro directed a 5 minute short for an anniversary project (Journey to the Rise), the Gundam 00 film features some FTL travel as part of the climax, and the almighty Turn A Gundam is capable of interstellar teleportation. An absolutely tiny amount of material relative to the whole of the franchise, in any case. It's rare that an actual show goes beyond the Earth Sphere (Gundam AGE had a few episodes set in the Mars Sphere; there are manga for various timelines set on Mars or around Jupiter though).
That's not a bad thing. I did develop an 'allergy' to the non-FTL type sci fi some time back mainly because of discomfort with the 'hard sci fi' ideas. Nowadays its not really an issue - its just a different way to do things that can change how the story/universe is set up and the consequences it can have. sorta like the impact time dilation in 'Forever War' had on things in that story.

Gundam lacking FTL just adds a bit of 'something different' into that hard/soft sci fi blend I talkeda bout earlier. Its something different to what I'm used to and it should be interesting to see how it impacts the setting.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:I mean like how guys said 'SHADOW EXPLODE PLANITS' and 'DEFIANT SO INVINCIBLE' because of enthusiasm or misguided information. Similarly, lots of gundam fans who consider themselves informed just create inaccurate expectations which often just drive people away.
Or 200 GIGATONS per shot!

Those sorts of expectations sound like they originate from a 'vs debate' mindset (comparing which two arbitray universe are 'better' or who 'win', or whatever.) Given that most vs debates can be highly technical in nature (and you're not likely to see a very 'thematic' vs debate very often) its probably not surprising to see it focusing on those 'aspects' and then gaining an incomplete view of the universe because all you fixate on is the mechanical aspects.

Heck I'm not even sure what the 'thematic' version of that would be (or if it even exists), but I'd imagine it does.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by jollyreaper »

I think that consistency with intent is important. In conflicts of realism and romance, I would prefer to fall on the side of realism. Lord of the Rings is romantic as hell and I can still appreciate it. Things happen in that story for mythological reasons, the whole idea of fate and destiny and so on. Things play out according to what makes for the best story. Good people look pretty, bad people look ugly, but thematically the whole thing holds together.

Even stories that strive for realism still have a romantic side. A Song of Ice and Fire has a reputation for being gritty and realistic for a fantasy and GRRM's willingness to kill off important characters is cited as proof of this but would he go as far as having Jaime die from a tooth infection off-screen? Would he have a plague sweep through a town and kill half the populace and half the named characters along with them? It might be plausible but it would make for difficult drama. Hell, imagine casting Brad Pitt (or any other A-list actor who makes gigabucks a picture) as the lead in a major action movie and SHTF fifteen minutes in and Brad's the first to die, head blown clean off? Then the movie centers on a no-name actor who doesn't have a top billing, never even featured in the trailers.

Much of the anime I've seen, even stuff that proclaims "war is hell," it still has room for all the romantic flourishes. Deaths are meaningful, heroes get to have their moments of mourning even in the heat of battle. Emotional rage translates to battle aura victories, even if there's not technically supposed to be chi power-ups. Of course, pretty much every one of those conventions is seen in Western entertainment as well.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Stark »

Drama is about characters and not giggatons. Who knew?

Some stuff in stories and drama is so closely tied to themes I'm not even sure how you can look at them any other way. Mineva's leap of faith in Unicorn is an example - once we take away the act, the explicit rejection of the status quo and moral cowardice, her slide into extremism in the face of hardliners, what's left? Some mad bird jumping off a plane?
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Ford Prefect wrote:And now I have eight bazillion and one dollars.

e: I cannot even begin to imagine how someone looks at Unicorn Gundam, a show which presents the Zekes as pointlessly consumed by vengeance, and decides that it's actually code for uyoku dantai Imperialist propaganda.
The Zekes are pointlessly consumed by vengeance, but again the main point of the show is to say "Zeon was right all along!"

Put it this way. You have a movie where evil Nazis are being consumed by vengeance (check). Nazis bad, right?

But it turns out that there was this super-secret protocol written as part of the 1900 Hague Peace Convention that says "The Jews are evil and must be exterminated!" which proves that everything they did during the war was in fact justified and even condoned by the Allied powers.

That's really the sort of disjointedness that's affecting a lot of Japanese war movies nowadays (i.e. trying to justify why war was necessary, when the simplest explanation is "It wasn't necessary and innocent people got caught up in it because of stupid ideology"), which has spilled over to Gundam.
Last edited by Zinegata on 2012-09-10 10:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Connor MacLeod wrote:So does this mean I should start calling them robots too? :P
It's really up to you, there's no general fixed convention besides the "Super Robot War" games (some of whom have a very clear but arbitrary distinction between real and super robots).
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by jollyreaper »

I object to calling anything a suit that you aren't putting your limbs into the limbs thereof. Iron Man's armor is a suit. A Gundam is a bloody big mecha, not a suit! Nobody agrees with me. :)
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Ford Prefect »

Zinegata wrote:The Zekes are pointlessly consumed by vengeance, but again the main point of the show is to say "Zeon was right all along!"
No, I'm sorry, you're so far off base you're on another planet. You're looking at a series which explicitly rejects the Zeon That Actually Existed, and repeatedly and regularly demonstrates that the Zeke characters have twisted their ideal into a meaningless cycle of vengeance, but decided that this is irrelevant because it also says that the Federation is bad, and then decided to extrapolate this out into apologia for Imperial Japan. Every time you say this you demonstrate your actual level ignorance and your inability to engage with a text in a complex way. I mean it couldn't possibly be that the reality of war and society is complex and it's not so easy to delineate into good guys and bad guys right????

I mean let's look at Nazi Germany for one second, given that you brought them up? Do you think that arose from a vacuum? That evil just ... emerged from the German psyche ex nihilo?
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Ford Prefect wrote:No, I'm sorry, you're so far off base you're on another planet.
Dude, you do know what's inside the super secret Laplace Box thing right? (which admittedly you may not know, since the anime hasn't caught up with the novel yet)

But hey, keep on going with "BOOOHOOO Zeon soldiers are people too!" and "Both sides are wrong!" and "Zeon's ideals got perverted" (the last bit of which is actually not true based on Tomino's original vision) that I'm not even contesting. So keep on going with your bullshit "Waaaah! Fuck Zine because I hate him" nonesense.

The problem with the series lies entirely with the big reveal of the contents of Laplace box. Which is this:
Spoiler
It is a hidden document written in UC 00 that says "If humanity ever discovers Newtypes, then the Earth Federation should grant independence to the space colonies." Which, if you spent 10 seconds thinking instead of frothing at the mouth, is a really little more than retroactive apologia. Especially when you consider that Zeon Deikun - who developed the whole Newtype theory - was born nine years after this secret document was written!
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Ford Prefect »

Zinegata wrote:Dude, you do know what's inside the super secret Laplace Box thing right?
Yes, I do know. The difference between you and I is that I actually processed the rest of the story.
Zinegata wrote:(the last bit of which is actually not true based on Tomino's original vision)
I remember you appealing to the original setting notes, but I refer you to the actual show which was made where Degwin actually says that yes, they were.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Ford Prefect wrote:Yes, I do know. The difference between you and I is that I actually processed the rest of the story.
No, the difference between you and I is that you completely ignored the Laplace Box's contents in your "processing" of the story because you like throwing cheap shots. Which is why you never mentioned it even once until now, despite the whole point of the story revolving around the revelation of its contents.

Seriously, every faction spends the whole series fighting over it and you never even touch upon it, and then you go "I am superior because I actually watch the shows!". Instead you give us a very general list of themes that we already see in like every other Gundam show ever, and then pretend it's actually the profound difference in Gundam Unicorn.

So really, fuck off if your only point is that you don't like old fogeys who actually watch the shows too and paid attention to actual details that you missed.
but I refer you to the actual show which was made where Degwin actually says that yes, they were.
Uh, yes, Degwin totally admitted onscreen that he murdered Zeon Deikun and he perverted the Zeon ideal (Not. The most he ever got to an "admission" is saying his son as as bad as Hitler). :roll:
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Stark wrote:I don't think it means, what you think it means. :v
Yes, yes, whatever. Go try and bend some definitions again.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Stark »

Is this really the way to react when someone doesn't agree with your analysis of a piece of drama? I disagree with pretty much everything you have said about the dramatic content of Gundam, but I'm happy to let people make up their own minds.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Stark wrote:Is this really the way to react when someone doesn't agree with your analysis of a piece of drama?
Do you have any other point other than to continue trolling and butthurt whining; just because your buddy Ford Prefect over there made the fundamental mistake of not including the Laplace MacGuffin in his "analysis", and then launches ad-hominem attacks (Zine doesn't watch Gundam shows carefully like I do!) despite the fact that he made the grevious error of ommission and continues to pretend the Laplace box isn't relevant to the plot at all?

And how can one believe that you are interested in actual conversation if, rather than giving your own interpretation, you make snide remarks about how "My definition is correct and yours is wrong!" without actually bothering to mention what you're actually talking about?

If you want a discussion, then have a fucking discussion instead of passive-aggressive trolling games. As in "explain your actual point", instead of beating around the bush and going :v.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Stark »

Well, we've met our quota for hysteria. You can calm down now. :lol:

And tbh I don't think it means what you think it means, and I don't agree it would affect the story the way you think it does in any case. I think the story sets itself firmly against all kinds of things relevant to both sides of the OYW. Should I make a montage?

EDIT

sorry

:v
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Stark wrote:Well, we've met our quota for hysteria. You can calm down now. :lol:
Yes, yes, fuck you and more of your useless adhominem cheap shots. At least you finally got to the point (in a very roundabout way).
And tbh I don't think it means what you think it means, and I don't agree it would affect the story the way you think it does in any case.
Well, if you think it doesn't affect the story in such a big way you're entitled to that opinion. Like I said, I don't contest any of the themes mentioned by Ford Prefect; they're part and parcel of themes we see in almost every UC show ever. But hey, create your clip show and waste your time despite me agreeing that those elements exist.

My point is that having a super-secret document which essentially validates Zeon's ideology nine years before the man himself was even born is really nothing more than retroactive apologia. Which, given Unicorn's author, was almost certainly deliberate and it is one of the central MacGuffins of the show.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Ford Prefect »

The reality is that even if you do watch the shows, you're not capable of engaging with them. I severely doubt you actually read the Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn novels: the only reason that you know the content of Laplace's Box is that you read the same spoilers that I did (now some years ago). A revelation without context, essentially. However, it slotted right into your preconceived beliefs about the franchise: that's it's been increasingly consumed by ... WWII historical revisionism.

I'm not going to touch that pile of hysterical moral superiority neuroses with anything at all, but the reality is that the story is far more complex, and has a vastly more complex view of the Federation and Zeon and the One Year War and the subsequent conflicts, than you are willing to admit. Does Unicorn say that the Federation was in the wrong? It sure does. But that's substantially been the case for over thirty years. Does Unicorn say that Zeon was in the right? Only if you're a cretin (ps. you are a cretin).

Unicorn is about power and how it's used (it's also about our relationship with our parents and having the courage to follow our hearts). So much of its thematics are about how a stagnant, faceless power base creates suffering. About how clinging to the status quo pushes people to extremism. That aspect of the story is an indictment of the Federation. Comparatively, the Zekes had an ideal, a new world beyond the stifling Federation, and they lost sight of it in favour of hatred and largely meaningless violence. Zeons have faith and tenacity and consistently misuse it. That is the message of Unicorn: that there was a path forward into a better future: a path which the Federation tried to bury because it threatened their power, and which the Zeons lost sight of and misused.

That's the reality. That's why Cardeas tells Zinnerman that Laplace's Box cannot be used to revive Zeon. That's why Minerva recognises that if she tries to pursue this new path she might end up committing crimes as heinous as the Zabis that came before her. That's why Banagher was entrusted with it. That's the substance of a story you simply do not understand.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Darth Tedious »

Zinegata wrote:Do you have any other point other than to continue trolling and butthurt whining; just because your buddy Ford Prefect over there made the fundamental mistake of not including the Laplace MacGuffin in his "analysis", and then launches ad-hominem attacks (Zine doesn't watch Gundam shows carefully like I do!) despite the fact that he made the grevious error of ommission and continues to pretend the Laplace box isn't relevant to the plot at all?
Emphasis mine.

Are you sure you know what a MacGuffin is, dude?

'Cause, if it's as thematically important as you make it out to be, it wasn't really a MacGuffin...
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Ford Prefect »

I'm not even sure he knows what the word 'ignore' means. I just don't make a point of alluding to the details regarding the Laplace Box because it's the driving mystery in the plot, and it's such a death blow for the credibility of both sides in the One Year War. I think it's important to experience that directly.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Stark »

I think it resonated strongly with the people Banagher met and how he tried to reach them - if you can't let go of your hate, or your twisted ideals, or your parents legacy, and live your own life, it might turn out that it was all for nothing or misguided.

This is echoed so many times throughout the series it baffles me that it could be seen as a surprise. Daguza basically directly says this to Banagher before his death; even cogs have dreams, and in the end Daguza put his dreams above his duty to the faceless Federation.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Ford Prefect wrote:I'm not going to touch that pile of hysterical moral superiority neuroses with anything at all, but the reality is that the story is far more complex, and has a vastly more complex view of the Federation and Zeon and the One Year War and the subsequent conflicts, than you are willing to admit.
In short, no one is allowed to point out that Unicorn is following the trend of Japanese WW2 historical revisionism or has these elements because "the story is more complex than that!". Great. Glad we have that cleared.

Next time somebody comes out with a story that denies the Holocaust let's excuse it because "it's story is more complex than that!". Because complex story telling completely washes out the attempt at apologia!
Unicorn is about power and how it's used (it's also about our relationship with our parents and having the courage to follow our hearts). So much of its thematics are about how a stagnant, faceless power base creates suffering. About how clinging to the status quo pushes people to extremism. That aspect of the story is an indictment of the Federation. Comparatively, the Zekes had an ideal, a new world beyond the stifling Federation, and they lost sight of it in favour of hatred and largely meaningless violence. Zeons have faith and tenacity and consistently misuse it.
First of all: Those are seriously the theme of every UC show ever which I'm not even contesting.

But hey, keep lording over your "superior" understanding of the series.
That is the message of Unicorn: that there was a path forward into a better future: a path which the Federation tried to bury because it threatened their power, and which the Zeons lost sight of and misused.
No, you idiot. That's nothing new with Unicorn.

Zeon were driven crazy by ideology and waged a massive war of annihilation (One Year War). The Federation also went crazy with ideology eventually and started gassing people too (Gryps War). The idea that "both sides are bad!" has existed long before Unicorn. Portraying that "both sides are wrong!" and "driven by extremists" is nothing new.

The problem with Unicorn, again, is that the Laplace Document ultimately ends up being retroactive apologia. It talks about Newtypes nine years before Zeon is even born. It also (as you admit) presents them as some kind of shining hope to the future.

But that's actually NOT what's shown in the series; or at least in the early ones.

Newtypes were never meant to save anyone. In every Gundam show, Newtypes ultimately end up as weapons - pilots flying giant mecha to kill their fellow men. This has always been the case - from the original series all the way to Victory Gundam. Newtypes are just psychics who end up becoming soldiers who are used by both sides (and other extremist groups) as weapons.

This why there's a telling comment made by Amuro Ray in the original series - He tells the crew that "We will win this battle, my Newtype intuition predicts it!", and yet a few minutes later tells his close friends "I don't really believe I'm a Newtype, I'm just faking to make the crew feel good".

The whole "Newtype" thing was meant to be propaganda. It was supposed to give people false hope, with the lesson being that people should not believe in some kind of Deus Ex Machina that will save them (i.e. Newtypes will save us!), and that they should believe in their own power to change the world for the better. That is why the climax of the UC series involves soldiers from both sides working together to stop an asteroid drop (CCA).

Unicorn abandons that and goes to "Newtypes will save us!", without realizing that it's just another ideology that caused the whole mess in the first place. They won't. It has to be people working together and communicating honestly.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Stark »

Uh, Newtypes being perverted into weapons was one of the biggest ways the other shows demonstrated how utterly morally bankrupt both sides were. This is one of the biggest launchpads for Unicorn's drama, and the Newtypes in the show are shown in a numebr of different lights to show that the 'newtype programs' and the way people thought of newtypes was fundamentally wrong and probably a terrible crime.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Zinegata »

Stark wrote:Uh, Newtypes being perverted into weapons was one of the biggest ways the other shows demonstrated how utterly morally bankrupt both sides were. This is one of the biggest launchpads for Unicorn's drama, and the Newtypes in the show are shown in a numebr of different lights to show that the 'newtype programs' and the way people thought of newtypes was fundamentally wrong and probably a terrible crime.
Exactly, and the point is that the Laplace document is no different. It is essentially using Newtypes as some kind of trigger point for political change, when they aren't anything of the sort. See how Zanscare tries to legitimize its rule through a Newtype Queen, and how Scirocco tries to raise his own Newtype Queen of sorts.

And what makes it particularly egregious is because it's an actual law. So you can't just say "Oh, that's just Zeon extremists perverting things"; not when everyone apparently signed on it back in UC 01.

Again, that's a lot like saying that German WW2 war crimes were all actually agreed upon as legal and kosher by everyone who signed a secret treaty in 1900. Well, okay, maybe not that far (probably closer to say they signed a law saying "We all hate Jews!" and the Nazis just took it a step too far), but that's definitely retroactive apologia.

Finally, what really takes the cakse is that it's an unnecesary retroactive point. You could have all the drama and complexity even without going back to UC001 and shaking up the fundamental premise of the series.
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Re: Alien mecha designs

Post by Ford Prefect »

Zinegata wrote:In short, no one is allowed to point out that Unicorn is following the trend of Japanese WW2 historical revisionism or has these elements because "the story is more complex than that!".
You're not allowed to say it because it's false.
Zinegata wrote:No, you idiot. That's nothing new with Unicorn.
the post you just quoted wrote:But that's substantially been the case for over thirty years
I shouldn't have even bothered. You are impossible to actually engage with.
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