Avengers out on DVD

[Ted C]

The problem (if you want to call it that, I suspect this thread has already put more thought into 'how does the no movement enchantment work' than the makers of the movie ever did) is that we are not told any of that within the confines of the movies. TedC's explantion in all likelihood works for Mjolnir's behavior in the movies, as does yours. The problem is that as far as the movie is concerned, all of that is out of universe information. You know it can be done, I know it can be done, so does most everybody else on this board, the problem is nobody in the movies ever said it happened.
All we see is, again
1. Nobody can move that damned hammer from where it's been put, yet
2. the helicarrier happily carries it along, and
3. it's being moved by Earth's rotation, Earth orbiting the sun, and the solar system orbiting the center of the galaxy (unless you want to argue those don't apply in the Marvel movieverse).
I'm not looking for how that enchantment could work given what we know about the Marvel universe. I'm trying to figure out how it could work given exclusively the information from the movies.

You can probably try to work that out until you have a brain hemorrage, but I don't think you'll come up with anything without some speculation. The films (so far at least) haven't provided enough information to work it out.

[Batman]

And I very much suspect you are correct. But what's the harm in trying?

[Ted C]

And I very much suspect you are correct. But what's the harm in trying?

Well then, in addition to your original points...

1. Nobody can move that damned hammer from where it's been put, yet
2. the helicarrier happily carries it along, and
3. it's being moved by Earth's rotation, Earth orbiting the sun, and the solar system orbiting the center of the galaxy (unless you want to argue those don't apply in the Marvel movieverse).

... we also have the following:

4. The hammer will fly to Odin's or Thor's hand when "called", and Odin's call apparently takes precedence.
5. The hammer can bounce and slide when dropped, but it seems to cling fast to the first "floor" it contacts if someone other than Thor is holding it. We see this behavior in the hangar scene in The Avengers, when Thor throws the hammer at the Hulk. Hulk grabs the handle as the hammer goes by and gets dragged with it. When they hit the deck, the hammer immediately locks down, and the Hulk can't lift it.

Number 5 is interesting because it's obvious that the hammer isn't just "sticking" to the deck: the Hulk is obviously strong enough to tear through the deck, so you'd expect the hammer to come up with pieces of deck clinging to it if that's all that were happening, but though the Hulk's feet are gouging holes in the deck, the piece of deck under the hammer remains intact.

[Batman]

I don't see why the 'come to papa' part of Mjolnir's features figures into the 'no can move' enchantment but #5 certainly has interesting ramifications for my 'you can't move the hammer from where it was dropped, but apparently you can move the place where it was dropped' theory
Perhaps Hulk, being a sentient creature actually grabbing the hammer, registered as unworthy while the helicarrier (and by extension, Earth, the solar system and so on) by virtue of being inanimate objects did not?

Damn. I speculating. You win.

[Kojiro]

I think it's much simpler to say Mjolnir has some criteria it judges 'worthiness' by when touched and resists all attempts to be moved by the unworthy, using the same motive force it does to smash through things and return to it's owner.

Interestingly when Thor places it on Loki's chest it isn't so heavy/pulling downwards as to crush Loki or even cause him real discomfort (other than what I suspect a 30kg plus hammer would). Loki couldn't lift it off himself but at the same time it didn't crush him, meaning it was actually fixed on a living being. I'd be curious what would happen if Hulk tried lifting it there.

[Terralthra]

Odin does say "whosoever holds this hammer," not "whatsoever." Inanimate objects aren't clearly implicated, only "who"s.

[Ahriman238]

Or alternatively the magic keeping the hammer in place isn't infinite, and both the planet and the Helicarrier are large/powerful enough to move it.

Stepping outside movie-only knowledge for a second, the hammer (and it's various copies and knockoffs) has some pretty peculiar standards of worthiness. IIRC, the list of worthy wielders of the hammer includes Beta Ray Bill, Bill Matheson (Thunderstrike) Storm, Cap, and here's the screwball, Deadpool.

[Batman]

Insects move against planetary rotation (if not all that particularly fast) every day, and I'm reasonably certain they're not all that magical.

[avatarxprime]

Or alternatively the magic keeping the hammer in place isn't infinite, and both the planet and the Helicarrier are large/powerful enough to move it.

Stepping outside movie-only knowledge for a second, the hammer (and it's various copies and knockoffs) has some pretty peculiar standards of worthiness. IIRC, the list of worthy wielders of the hammer includes Beta Ray Bill, Bill Matheson (Thunderstrike) Storm, Cap, and here's the screwball, Deadpool.

I'm wondering if maybe the spell is kinda like the rule bending in "Gargoyles" with the Arch Mage and the Grimorum Arcanorum. The Arch Mage was not allowed to bring the Grimorum with him into Avalon since it was "foreign magic," so he ate it. This made the book a part of him and allowed him to take it wherever he went. If the Hammer becomes a part of whatever (likely non-living only) material it comes to rest upon (which seemingly happens the second it touches a "floor") then that would explain most of the properties. It moves with the Earth or Helicarrier, since it is part of them, it moves where they move. As to the Hulk's attempt, if the Hammer and the surface its on are treated as one, once contact was made, you wouldn't be able to seperate them since seperating them would require weilding the Hammer, violating the primary condition on it.

[Batman]

Except, as TedC already explained, you don't need to remove Mjolnir from the surface-you just have to rip it out along with the hammer. Yet Hulk apparently couldn't do it. Now you could argue that if the section of the floor the hammer's resting on is ripped out it's no longer part of what the hammer was resting on, but where do you stop that?

[Havok]

I would say that since the hammer was forged in the heart of a dying star (according to dialogue, so take it with a grain of salt) and given that we see that the hammer responds to spoken words from Odin and Thor (he calls for it upon his arrival on Earth in Thor ) which directly affect it and how it works, that there is a gravitational field that the hammer knows when to create that allows it to stay in a certain point in space, so that it doesn't move up or down, cause things to crash etc., and that the programming is clearly advanced enough (it can make alterations to itself that work exactly as Odin wants without specific explanation) to the point that it appears telepathic, (Thor calls to it without speaking in the Helecarrier hanger) so that it can stay in synchronous movement with a planet, not effect its gravity and yet still appear to be unmovable to the human and Asgardian eye.

All of these feats are witnessed in the movies.

[Ted C]

I don't see why the 'come to papa' part of Mjolnir's features figures into the 'no can move' enchantment

Because the hammer's weight doesn't seem to be what keeps the "unworthy" from lifting it, since it can obviously be carried along by the movement of something like the helicarrier. It has to be actively resisting some forces that act on it (such as the Hulk's strength), presumably using the same motive power that it uses to return to Thor's hand when thrown.

I think it's much simpler to say Mjolnir has some criteria it judges 'worthiness' by when touched and resists all attempts to be moved by the unworthy, using the same motive force it does to smash through things and return to it's owner.

According to the comics, the criteria is "someone Odin would consider worthy". How the hammer makes that call is unknown, but Odin's "enchantment" in the movie appears to install the same criteria.

Interestingly when Thor places it on Loki's chest it isn't so heavy/pulling downwards as to crush Loki or even cause him real discomfort (other than what I suspect a 30kg plus hammer would). Loki couldn't lift it off himself but at the same time it didn't crush him, meaning it was actually fixed on a living being. I'd be curious what would happen if Hulk tried lifting it there.

That would be interesting. I wonder if the Hulk could escape by tearing through the ground/deck/floor beneath him. If he can get into freefall, could he get out from under the hammer?

[Borgholio]

Yeah, but where's the fun in that?
A propos what is the hammer made of-I know Mjolnir is made of Uru in the comics but does the term ever come up in the movies?

According to Odin in Thor, Mjolnir was "forged from the heart of a dying star".

Neutronium? That could explain the movement thing. A hammer made of degenerate neutrons would weigh as much as an asteroid. Asgard tech added to the hammer could reduce / nullify this weight depending on circumstances, as already discussed earlier. "Simply" adjusting the weight of the hammer would easily account for what we see on screen.

[Batman]

No, it wouldn't. If Mjolnir merely dialed its weight up to 11 every time somebody 'unworthy' tries to lift it, we would see the effects on the environment. Thor-when Thor or Loki try to lift it, it merely doesn't budge. It does not drill a tunnel into the ground. Same goes for Hulk trying to pick it up in the Avengers-if the hammer merely got really seriously heavy, it just would have dropped through the deck.

[PeZook]

It has a motive system which allows it to SMASH THROUGH STEEL BULKHEADS. There's no need to invent additional capabilities like mass adjustment when it can just use the same system to stay in place, since it can clearly impart pretty much arbitrary momentum and velocity to it.

[Mr Bean]

It has a motive system which allows it to SMASH THROUGH STEEL BULKHEADS. There's no need to invent additional capabilities like mass adjustment when it can just use the same system to stay in place, since it can clearly impart pretty much arbitrary momentum and velocity to it.

Only if it's weight increased faster than the lift force, and it's been awhile but when Hulk tries picking it up, does he not start digging into the flying carrier? Let us imagine for a second just a random example of what's possibly going on.

Lets say the hammer normally weights oh twenty pounds, when one unworthy of wielding the hammer tries to do so it increases it's weight. But it only increase it proportional to the effort expended by the unworthy one to lift it. So average adult male 180 pounds who can lift his on weight tries to lift the twenty pound hammer it increases in weight to ten pounds more than he can lift, the instant he stops lifting the hammer returns back in proportion to it's default weight.

So Hulk tries to lift it, the Hammer gets heavier in response in exact measure to Hulks lifting strength. Hulk braces himself and lifts, hammer gets heavier, the strength of the deck is compromised because the weight is on hulks feet not the hammer itself and the floor gives way, the weight reduces as Hulk loses his grip.

The reason why it does not fall through the earth or anything like that is again it's actively resisting efforts to be moved once placed somewhere, not it's super heavy to begin with.

[Batman]

Um. Yeah, if the hammer gets heavier than yes, the weight is on the hammer?

[Mr Bean]

Um. Yeah, if the hammer gets heavier than yes, the weight is on the hammer?

Come on Bats, basic psychics, if I put a twenty pound hammer on a weight scale then lift it with ten pounds of upwards force how much will the scale read?

[Batman]

Given you called it psychics you're not in a position to chastise me about getting basic physics wrong you know.
Which Master Bruce absolutely did.
That's it. I'm keeping the guano.

[Mr Bean]

Given you called it psychics you're not in a position to chastise me about getting basic physics wrong you know.
Which Master Bruce absolutely did.
That's it. I'm keeping the guano.

Blame my phones auto-correct, you can still answer the question I trust. What does the scale read?

[Batman]

I DO think Alfred already did (the miserable bastard), but yes, obviously Hulk or anybody else pulling up on Mjolnir would reduce the amount of its weight that would affect the ground it's resting on in this scenario.

[Mr Bean]

Meaning the suggested hypothesis of movement resistance is plausible? To explain why Thor can drop it anywhere and not have to worry about it falling through things?

[Batman]

For the nobody being able to pick it up part, yes, absolutely, and that mechanism might actually work for the no lateral movement bit as well.

[avatarxprime]

Except, as TedC already explained, you don't need to remove Mjolnir from the surface-you just have to rip it out along with the hammer. Yet Hulk apparently couldn't do it. Now you could argue that if the section of the floor the hammer's resting on is ripped out it's no longer part of what the hammer was resting on, but where do you stop that?

I know, I'd still class that under the "wielding it" clause, since if you can lift the hammer up (ripping it from its base), then you can wield it, even if it does have a ton of extra mass (the floor it was on) attached to it.

Meaning the suggested hypothesis of movement resistance is plausible? To explain why Thor can drop it anywhere and not have to worry about it falling through things?

Wouldn't that not work for the Loki pinning scene though? The Hammer was on top of him and he was unable to move out from under it, but it did not appear to be crushing him or even pressing his chest down IIRC.

[Mr Bean]

Wouldn't that not work for the Loki pinning scene though? The Hammer was on top of him and he was unable to move out from under it, but it did not appear to be crushing him or even pressing his chest down IIRC.

The hammer resists movement by opposing it with additional mass and weight. But it's in counter point to the forces acting on it. Where Thor throws it or drops it, it will stay. So by plunking the hammer down on Loki's chest he confines Loki. If Loki tries to move the hammer opposes the movement, as he tries to lift it off him it gets heavier in lockstep. It's not crushing his chest because it's only getting just enough to prevent being moved. It does not what to move in any direction within the local frame of reference. It seems to know deliberate from simple astronomical movement as it does not go flying off into space when Thor puts it down and the Earth rotates on.