Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Terralthra wrote:At some point downrange, the controlling ship severs control links with the missiles anyway, once light-speed lag overcomes how much shittier the onboard computers are compared to the ship's computers. That's why Apollo was such a huge win.
Yes, but by all appearances this limit was not reached within the limits of normal single-drive missile technology. While obviously the missile had to be at least partly autonomous to function at eight million kilometers from its launcher, it still got real benefit from updates and instructions to compensate for enemy EW tricks.

At three or four times that range... not so much.
Batman wrote:Um-I don't see why a double broadside has to be 'uncontrolled'. Yes, rolling takes half your telemetry emitters out of the loop, but half of them remain in, so you should at least be able to continue controlling half your double broadside, and I don't see anything keeping them from rotating several missiles on a single telemetry link (especially as for double broadsides, 'several' means 'two').
Problem: the ship does not stop rolling when the second broadside has been fired. It takes some time to cancel the ship's angular momentum, in which time the control links to your missiles are repeatedly being cut off and the communications gear is having to reacquire them after the cut-off.
Something they have to be able to do anyway now I think about it because if we're going with one link per tube how else do they control multiple underway salvoes, and if they have the telemetry links to control several salvoes, at least for double broadsides the issue becomes mute.
Problem: the ship puts twice as many missiles into space with double broadsides, so each of the (say) starboard links must control X missiles fired from a port tube AND X missiles fired from a starboard tube, simultanously. It's still doing twice as much work as would be a standard design feature.
And why would the ship cutting half its telemetry links out of the loop for a few seconds mean the missiles are on their own? We've been telling missiles 'You go thataway until further notice, wait for updates' for decades. The number of SAMs a Tico can control really simultaneously is four. It can manage a lot more than that because it rotates through missiles, telling them 'your target is currently there, go there until further notice, I'll be back shortly' and switches to another missile. I don't see why Honorverse targeting can't do the same within limits. Certainly within the limits of a measly double broadside.
I would guess that the main problem is keeping a stable communications link with the missile while the ship is rotating rapidly. Normally missiles are either 'outbound' or 'inbound,' so tracking them and keeping a communicator beam on them is easy. If the ship is spinning quickly it becomes more challenging, the constraints on hardware capability get harsher, and so on.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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"Very well. I propose to allow you and your people aboard your repair ship—but only after I've sent a boarding party aboard to disable all of her communication systems." Warnecke cocked his head, expression arrested, and she smiled. "Without a shipboard system to transmit your detonation order, you can't double-cross me at the last minute, now can you?"

"You must be joking, Captain!" This time Warnecke's tone was testy, and he frowned. "If you take away my ability to transmit, you also take the gun out of my hand. I don't think I'm very interested in going aboard ship only to be blown out of space once I get there!"

"Patience, Mr. Warnecke. Patience!" Honor smiled. "After my people have disabled your vessel's coms, you'll send your designated 'henchmen' aboard her. You yourself, however, and no more than three others of your choice, will be aboard a single unarmed shuttle docked to the exterior of your ship, where I and three of my officers will join you. Your shuttle transmitter will, of course, be able to send the detonation command at any time during this process. My people will then disable all transmitters aboard all small craft docked in your boat bays. Once they report to me that all your long range com systems—except the one aboard your shuttle—are inoperable, I'll allow it to depart orbit. You will also have aboard your shuttle a short range radio—no more than five hundred klicks' maximum range, as determined by my people, not yours—with which to maintain communication with your shipboard personnel. Once you've satisfied yourself that all my boarders have left your vessel, you, myself, and my three officers will remain aboard the shuttle while you head for the hyper limit. Assuming nothing, ah, untoward happens before reaching the limit, you'll then go aboard your ship, and my officers and I will undock the shuttle and return to my ship, taking with us the only means by which you could detonate the charges. Since the shuttle will be unarmed, we will, of course, be unable to hamper your departure in any way."
So the Chalice Navy is debris, but Warnecke has a number of nukes through cities and towns on Sidemore, and detonates one to show he's serious when Honor demands his surrender, saying that she already told the Andies and Sillies he's out here (true, as it happens) but she and the Andies will just stick him in prison, the Sillies will hang him for real this time. Warnecke wants to fly away in his repair ship and let Honor trust him not to blow all the nukes. This is the compromise plan.

"True." Warnecke scratched his beard gently. "But then there'd be the situation aboard the shuttle, Captain. I appreciate your willingness to offer yourself as a hostage for the honesty of your intentions, but you wish to bring three of your officers with you, as well. Now, if you put four armed military people, including yourself, in a situation like that, they might just decide to do something heroic, and I wouldn't like that, either."

"Perhaps not, but I have to have some means of making certain you don't send the order over the shuttle com."

"True," Warnecke said again, then smiled lazily. "However, Captain, I think I'm going to have to insist that your personnel be unarmed."
Which is what Honor was angling for the whole time, but it's important at this stage of negotiation to let Warnecke "win" one.

"All right, you can check us for arms when we come aboard," she said, carefully hiding the fact that she'd intended to make that offer from the outset, "but my people will still be aboard your ship when you do so, so I advise you to be very careful about how you go about it. We'll board your shuttle before the transmitters on your other small craft are disabled, and one of my engineers will place a demolition charge on the exterior of your shuttle—one sufficiently powerful to destroy your entire ship."

"A demolition charge?" Warnecke blinked, and she hid a smile at the evidence that she'd finally managed to startle him.

"It seems only fair to me," she countered, "given the charges you've already placed on the planet. Our charge will be rigged to detonate upon command from my ship, and I will be in communication with it at all times. If communications are interrupted, my executive officer will blow the charge and your ship—and both of us—with it."

He frowned, and she commanded her own face to remain impassive. There was one glaring flaw in her offer, and she knew it. More, she expected Warnecke to see it. Assuming she'd read his personality aright, he'd almost have to plan on taking advantage of it . . . and the surprise when he found he couldn't should help distract him from what she actually intended to do.
This is the point where we stop and ask the clever reader if they can spot the obvious 'flaw' in Honor's plan.

"Calmly, Allen. Calmly," Warnecke said. "Captain Harrington is our guest." He smiled and cocked his head. "Nonetheless, Captain, you do need to convince me you're unarmed."

"But I'm not." Honor's answering smile was thin, and Warnecke's eyes narrowed in sudden alarm as she raised the rectangular case hanging from her left wrist. It was twenty-two centimeters long, fifteen wide, and ten deep, and its upper surface bore three switches, a small number pad, and two unlit power lights.

"And just what might that be?" He tried to make his voice light, but an edge of tension crackled in it and his bodyguards' weapons came up instantly.

"Something far more potent than a flechette gun, Mr. Warnecke," Honor said coolly. "This is a remote detonator. When it's activated, the charge out there is armed. It will detonate if I fail to input the proper code on the number pad at least once every five minutes."

"You never said anything about that!" This time his voice was almost a snarl, and Nimitz hissed as Honor laughed. It was a chill sound, like the snapping of a frozen sword blade, and her brown eyes were colder still.

"No, I didn't. But you don't have any choice but to accept it, do you? You're up here now, Mr. Warnecke. You can kill me and all three of my officers. You can even blow up the planet. But that charge will still be out there where my ship can detonate it, and you'll be dead ten seconds after we are." His mouth twisted, and she smiled mockingly. "Come now, Mr. Warnecke! You have your flechette guns, and, as agreed, my people aren't even in skinsuits. You can shoot us or depressurize the shuttle any time you care to. All I can do is kill us myself . . . and, of course, take you with us. It seems like a reasonable balance of force to me."
Yes, it was the light-speed delay. But the demo charge has a sort of deadman's switch, in that Honor needs to tell it not to detonate every five minutes.

"But how can I be certain there's not a weapon hidden inside it?" Warnecke inquired lightly. "There's ample room in there for a small pulser, I believe."

"I'm sure you have a power sensor around somewhere. Run a check."

"An excellent suggestion. Harrison?"

The pilot glowered at Honor, then opened an equipment locker. He pulled out a hand scanner and ran it over the case when she held it out.

"Well?" Warnecke asked.

"Nothing," the pilot grunted. "I'm picking up a single ten-volt power source. That's plenty for a short-range transmitter, but it's too little juice for a pulser."
Scanning Honor's transmitter for a power source, no weapon. So apparently a battery can be detected at close ranges, I don't know how useful that generally is.

Three hours and fifteen minutes. She and Fred Cousins had considered the maximum range of Warnecke's hand-held transmitter carefully before she allowed the privateer to exchange it for the original. It was remotely possible, assuming a sufficiently sensitive receiving array, that a unit that small might have a range of as much as two light-minutes. With that in mind, Honor had decided Warnecke had to be at least five light-minutes from the planet before she dared take any action against him, and that time had now come.
2 light-minutes (36 million km, or 22 million miles) about the maximum possible range for a hand-held comm unit.

She waited another few seconds, then pressed the third button on the case—the one the new number code had armed—and two things happened. First, the small but efficient jamming pod hidden in the demolition charge on the outside of the shuttle came to life, putting out a strong enough field to trash any radio signal. The shuttle's com lasers could still get the detonation order through, but even as the jammer went into action, the end of the case opened and the familiar weight of a cocked and locked .45 automatic slid out into her hand.

None of Warnecke's men realized anything had happened, for the seat in front of Honor hid the case from them. Besides, they knew she was unarmed, for they'd checked the case without finding the giveaway power source of a pulser or any other modern hand weapon. The possibility of a something so primitive it used chemical explosives had never even occurred to them.

Honor's expression didn't even flicker as she brought the pistol up in a smooth, flowing motion, and its sudden, deafening roar filled the passenger compartment like the hammer of God. The bodyguard named Allen had his flechette gun ready, but he never even realized he was dead as fifteen grams of hollow-nosed lead exploded through his forehead, and the stunning, totally unexpected concussion shocked every one of the privateers into a fatal fractional second of absolute immobility. The second bodyguard was just as shocked as anyone else, and he hadn't even begun to move when the gun roared again in the same sliver of time.

The bodyguard was hurled back out of his seat, spraying the bulkhead—and Andre Warnecke—with a gray-flecked bucket of red, and Honor was on her feet, holding the pistol in a two-handed grip.

"The party is over, Mr. Warnecke," she said, and her eyes were carved of frozen brown flint. She had to speak loudly to hear herself through the ringing in her ears, and she smiled as the privateer stared at her in numb disbelief. "Stand up and move away from the transmitter."
Ah, it would appear the demolition charge also hid a signal jammer, and there was a weapon inside her transmitter, her new Colt which lacks a power signature to trip off the one test it had to pass.

They were conventional thrusters, but they were also powerful, and just over one hundred gravities of acceleration hurled the shuttle away from the ship. The small craft's artificial gravity did its best, but its inertial compensator had no impeller wedge to work with. Twenty gravities got through, and Honor grunted as a giant's fist slammed down. But the shuttle blasted straight for the perimeter of the repair ship's wedge at an acceleration of one kilometer per second squared. It was more than enough to clear the wedge before its narrowing after aspect could destroy the tiny craft, and she gasped with relief as she hurtled free and killed the belly thrusters. She burned the main thrusters for another thirty seconds, using her attitude thrusters to slew away from the repair ship at a more tolerable fifty gravities, then brought the shuttle's transmitter on-line.
I don't know what this shuttle is, but it can pull 100 G accel on thrusters alone, with just 20 Gs effecting the crew through the inertial dampeners. It also has impeller drive, as she kicks it in shortly after clearing the repair ship's wedge.

Honor calls on the fleeing repair ship to surrender, they try and call her bluff and she blows the demo charge, killing them all. Thus was Sidemore liberated.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Ahriman238 wrote:Scanning Honor's transmitter for a power source, no weapon. So apparently a battery can be detected at close ranges, I don't know how useful that generally is.
Pretty damn useful, if you ask me. A battery might actually NOT be detectable if it wasn't plugged in in circuit, though.
2 light-minutes (36 million km, or 22 million miles) about the maximum possible range for a hand-held comm unit.
If the array were, say, equivalent to the deep-space tracking arrays we use to pick up signals from the Voyager probes and so on... that's actually an underestimate. Then again, maybe not, because how would you maintain a tightbeam locked on the target planet from long range? Without that, you can't use tiny tiny transmissions from billions of kilometers away, so nevermind.
I don't know what this shuttle is, but it can pull 100 G accel on thrusters alone, with just 20 Gs effecting the crew through the inertial dampeners. It also has impeller drive, as she kicks it in shortly after clearing the repair ship's wedge.
Fairly typical. Reaction thrusters in the Honorverse are ridiculous.

Twenty gravities of acceleration are, however, pretty excessive even given the urgency of the maneuver; I'm not sure that's reliably survivable although Honor and crew may have been willing to take the risk.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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People surviving what should be-at least for the length of time depicted- incapacitating if not outright lethal accelerations pops up at least twice again (later in this book and two books down the line) so either pretty much everyone in the Honorverse has a Kryptonian in their family tree or Weber was a tad optimistic about human G tolerances (the 12-22 G for a very short time from an ejector seat are already somewhat problematic) :lol:
Also note that without an impeller wedge a Honorverse vessel doesn't have inertial dampers, she has to rely on her grav plates to keep the crew from turning into really grisly wall ornamentation-which means a measly shuttle can eat 80 G on those alone. But then, we already knew their gravity tech is pretty damned impressive.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Well, for Honor the limit might be higher because the baseline's higher- she might be able to handle higher instantaneous loads as part of the same modification process that made her ancestors suitable for colonizing heavy-gravity planets.

For everyone else... it would be darkly amusing if Honor had pulled this and two scenes later Doctor Montoya or whoever were bawling her out because one of the officers who came with her now has a crushed spine.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:Well, for Honor the limit might be higher because the baseline's higher- she might be able to handle higher instantaneous loads as part of the same modification process that made her ancestors suitable for colonizing heavy-gravity planets.

For everyone else... it would be darkly amusing if Honor had pulled this and two scenes later Doctor Montoya or whoever were bawling her out because one of the officers who came with her now has a crushed spine.
Alas for the next three chapters we return to the bullying subplot.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Honor being a Genie only goes so far. We're talking about somewhere upwards of 30 seconds of 20G and her not only surviving (with no injuries that the author deemed worth mentioning), but her remaining conscious when for real world fighter pilots, even a few seconds of 9G usually means 'sorry bro-you're out of the picture' and at least marginally functional throughout all that. I'm buying that for the Wallcrawler or Xavier's Tin Man. For a high-gravity designed Genie where the 2.7G of St Martin is considered extreme? No way.
And that's ignoring the fact that curiously enough, her Grayson armsmen (who, while gengineered, weren't for high gravity worlds and grew up on and are descendants of people who grew up on a world with a whopping 17% more gravity than Earth) somehow emerged unscathed too.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
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'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Were the armsmen in question named?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Andrew LaFollet, Simon Mattingly, and Jamie Candless, who were pretty much the default selection at the time?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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In fact, they all wore Manty uniforms for this deception as Honor's "senior officers" and LaFollet got the lowest rank, a senior-grade lieutenant. Partly so the leader of the armsmen would be less conspicuous, but also because he's the only one who still can't convincingly fake a Manticoran accent. Sure, it's unlikely Warnecke knows enough to spot the difference, but why take that chance when they can make him the junior officer and give him an excuse to keep his mouth shut?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Just for completeness' sake, all three of them show up later in the Honorverse with zero mention of them having suffered undue hardship nor needing therapy to recover from what happened to them in 'Honor among Enemies'.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Sustaining 20 G is actually plausible for a fit person in a highly reclined position, 70 degrees or more relative to the direction of the G force. The problem is nobody has yet designed a satisfactory way to let you pilot a fighter while lying on your back or laying on your stomach, though people have designed fighters with the pilot in that position. Bonus for the British fighter design, a Meteor variant IIRC, that had a pilot on his belly in the nose and another upright in a conventional bubble canopy position. It predated G suits. The +9 limit is not a hard limit, in fact the full body suit used for the F-22 allows 11 now. Though it isn't likely anything further can be done sustained; short bursts of 13-14 have long been possible.

So you had someone upright in a ship and it was accelerating forward at 20 G, that isn't out of the question at all for a fit person. A 20 G vertical turn meanwhile would rapidly lead to brain death even with a full body G suit, and human tolerance for negative G in a dive is always lower. It isn't plausible that realistic genetics could cause more then fractional changes in sustained G tolerance . With positive gee the brain can only gain so much efficiency at using oxygen and so much blood pressure, while with negative gee your eyes will simply be damaged from capillaries bursting. Supersonic fighter pilots are already very exceptional human samples.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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It's not upwards of thirty seconds. It was at 100g (20g felt) for some small number of seconds to get clear of the wedge, then she cut it to 50g (1g felt) as soon as they were clear of the wedge for another thirty seconds. How big is the clunker-ass repair ship? We could calculate how much time she would've needed to build that vector, but it's definitely less than 30+ seconds. Grav plates can kill up to a certain amount of gs, and the rest is felt, so if the grav plates could kill 80 out of 100, they could kill 50/50 for the latter part of the burn.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Ginger Lewis watched her work section help the crew of Rail Number Three maneuver the pod back into Cargo One. The pod was smaller than a LAC, but it was much larger than a pinnace, and its designers had been far less concerned with ease of handling than with combat effectiveness. Nor was the situation helped by the fact that Wayfarer, as one of the first four ships to be fitted with the new, rail-launched version, had been forced to work out handling procedures more or less as she went. But each pod cost over three million dollars, which put their reuse high on BuShip's list of desirable achievements. And, Ginger admitted, having them available to shoot at another enemy made sense all on its own.
Missile pods are bigger than a pinnace, which is itself roughly the size of a commercial airliner albeit smaller than an LAC. Which is less helpful than it sounds, LACs are big. $3 million Manticoran per pod.

Commander Harmon's LACs had tracked down all but three of the pods used in the short, savage destruction of Andre Warnecke's cruisers, which was outstanding, given how difficult the system's low signature features made finding them. Be a good idea to put a homing beacon on them, Ginger thought, making a mental note to suggest just that. Wonder why no one at BuWeaps thought of that?
So someone in the story does get the right idea, just not the designers.

In the meantime, all twenty-seven of the (beaconless) relocated pods had been towed to Wayfarer, where skinsuited Engineering and Tactical crews had worked their butts off recertifying their launch cells. Two had been down-checked—they were repairable, but not out of Wayfarer's onboard resources—and the Captain had ordered them destroyed.

That left twenty-five, all of which had to have their cells reloaded. That could have been done on the launch rails, but Cargo One didn't offer much space for maneuvering capital missiles. Wayfarer was equipped with the latest Mark 27, Mod C, which weighed in at just over one hundred and twenty tons in one standard gravity. Even in free-fall, that was a lot of mass and inertia, and the damned things were the next best thing to fifteen meters long. All in all, Ginger had to agree that reloading them outside the ship, where there was plenty of room to work, and then remounting them on the rails made far more sense.
120 tons for the new capital ship missiles, against 75 tons for the fleet action in the first book. The pods are being reloaded EVA before being brought inside.

She walked further up the side of Cargo One, standing straight out from the bulkhead to get a better view as the rail crew—wearing hardsuits and equipped with tractor-pressor cargo-handling units—babied the current pod into mating with the rail. The handling units looked like hand-held missile launchers, only bigger, and each end mounted a paired presser and tractor with a rated lift of one thousand tons. The rail crew was using the pressers like giant, invisible screw jacks to align the pod's mag shoe precisely with the rail, and despite their fatigue, they moved with a certain bounce. Ginger smiled tiredly at that. Morale aboard Wayfarer had soared since Schiller. First they'd taken out two raider destroyers—well, all right, one destroyer—and a light cruiser and captured a Peep CL for good measure. Then they'd sailed straight into Marsh and zapped four heavy cruisers, and then they'd captured one of the most wanted mass-murders in Silesian history in a personal shoot-out with the Old Lady, blown a thousand more straight to hell, and saved an entire planet from nuclear devastation. Not too shabby, she thought with another grin, remembering a long ago discussion with a bitterly disappointed Aubrey Wanderman. Not a ship of the wall, no, Wonder Boy. But somehow I doubt you'd have wanted to be anywhere but on the Old Lady's command deck when this one went down!
Pressor beams pop up from time to time in sci-fi. They're the opposite of tractor beams in that they repel things, so a combined tractor/pressor unit for moving things (particularly in zero-g) makes a lot of sense. Also hardsuits, are like contemporary spacesuits, bulky. But they're one-size-fits-all where skinsuits have to be individually tailored, and Wayfarer has a lot of space for things like that.

General state of the crew after their rip-roaring adventure. Not even the hardest merchant cartel leader can say now that the Trojans haven't made a difference.

But she wasn't here to admire the view. She centered the HUD reticle on Pod Twenty-Four's beacon, locking her vector into the automated guidance systems of the outsized Sustained Use Thruster pack strapped over her skinsuit. The SUT packs were designed for extended EVA use, with much greater endurance and power than the standard skinsuit thrusters, and Ginger loved her rare opportunities to play with them. Now she double-checked her vector, grinned in anticipation, and tapped the go button.

That was when it happened.

The second she enabled the thrusters, the entire system went mad. Instead of the gentle pressure she'd expected, the SUT went instantly to maximum power. It slammed her away from the ship under an acceleration intended only for emergency use, and she grunted in anguish, unable to cry out properly under the massive thrust. Her thumb reached frantically for the manual override, finding the button with the blind, unerring speed of relentless training, and jabbed sharply . . . and nothing happened at all.

Nor was that the worst of it. Her attitude thrusters were equally berserk, whipsawing her wildly and sending her pinwheeling insanely off into space. She lost all spatial reference in the first two seconds, and her inner ear went mad as she whirled crazily away from the ship. It was only God's good grace that she was headed away from the ship; her malfunctioning SUT could just as easily have turned her straight into the hull, with instantly lethal consequences.

But the consequences she had were bad enough. For the first time in her life, Ginger Lewis was hammered by the motion sickness which had always evoked amused sympathy when she saw it in others. She vomited helplessly, coughing and choking as the instinct-level responses her instructors had beaten into her fought to keep her airways clear. She'd never expected to need that training—she wasn't the sort to whoop her cookies over a little vacuum work!—but only the legacy of her merciless DIs kept her alive long enough to hit the vomit-slimed chin switch that dropped her com into Flight Ops' EVA guard frequency.
Skinsuits have their own thruster packs, otherwise the only option they'd give spaced crewmen is a slow death. But they also accept the much heavier SUT unit. Which in this case has been sabotaged.

"Flight Ops," he said crisply into his boom mike. "I have an unidentified bogey heading out at—" he checked the numbers "—thirty-five gees. All section leaders, check your sections. I want a headcount soonest!"
SUT on emergency power can pull 35 Gs of accel, plenty to cripple or kill the user. But the gravity tolerance debate just gets better from here.

"Dutchman! Dutchman!" he barked. "Flight Ops is declaring a Dutchman! Get the ready pinnace out now!"

A startled acknowledgment came back, and he plugged into CIC.

"Ullerman, CIC," a voice said.

"Tremaine, Flight Ops," Scotty said urgently. "Listen up! I've got a Dutchman headed away from the ship at thirty-five gees. I painted the trace on your plot three minutes ago. Tie into the ready pinnace and guide them in on it—and for God's sake don't lose it!"

"Acknowledged," the voice snapped, and Tremaine turned back to his own radar. It was short-ranged and much less powerful than the main arrays, and the trace was already fading from his display. He saw the much larger radar signature of the ready pinnace, driving hard on reaction thrusters to clear the ship, and his lips moved as he whispered a silent prayer for whoever that disappearing trace was.

If the pinnace didn't get to him before Tracking lost him, the poor bastard would become a Flying Dutchman in truth.
Dutchman is the signal for somebody zooming helplessly into space. EVA crews have a dedicated distress channel activated by chin-switch, plus they carry radar to track anyone randomly hopping off into the black and keep a retrieval pinnace on standby. Good.

Now someone had attempted to murder one of her crew, and the way whoever it was had done it was almost worse than the attempt itself. Few spacers would admit it, but the terror of being lost, of drifting helplessly in space until your suit air and heat ran out, was one of the darkest nightmares of their profession.
An SUT could conceivably fail that way, but the comm is an independent system, which means sabotage. And most spacers have a healthy respect for the perils of hard vacuum and Newton's laws.

"Her attitude thrusters could just as easily have slammed her straight into the hull, and she inhaled enough stomach acid to cause major lung damage. Angie's on top of that, but she pulled thirty-five gees for twenty minutes, with no warning, and her vector looks like a near-weasel chasing a rabbit. That didn't do her a bit of good, and she was pretty far gone in anoxia—from the lung damage, not suit failure—before the pinnace got to her. By the way," he added, "Tatsumi was the ready section SBA. Angie says he's the only reason she's still alive."
So, 20 minutes of constant 35 G accel, on a corkscrewing vector. From what I can follow of the gravity discussion, she really should be dead, right?

They'd put her under a general while they flushed the acid out of her lungs, and then they'd had to hit her with a massive dose of the quick heal compounds. That always put the recipient out like a light. But knowing it didn't make her look one bit less terrible, and he looked up as Yoshiro Tatsumi paused at the foot of the bed.
Apparently the quick-heal drugs also knock you out.

Randy Steilman bellowed his fury and lunged with murder in his eyes. He reached for Aubrey's throat, fingers curled to rend and throttle—then whooped in agony as a perfectly timed snap kick exploded into his belly. He flew backward, crashing down over two empty chairs, and heaved himself back to his knees on the deck. He fought for breath, glaring at the slender acting petty officer, unable to believe what had just happened. And then he swung his arms, smashing the chairs away from him, and lunged again, this time from his knees.

Aubrey's flashing spin kick took Steilman square in the face before he was half-erect. The power tech went down again, with a scream of pain as his nose broke and two incisors snapped. He spat out broken teeth and blood, staring down at them in shock and fury, and Illyushin stepped towards Aubrey with a snarl of his own. But his movement stopped as suddenly as it had begun—stopped in a gasp of agony as a steel clamp closed on the back of his neck. One of his arms was snatched behind him and twisted till the back of his hand pressed his shoulder blades, a knee drove into his spine, and a deep, cold voice rumbled in his ear.

"You stay out of it, sweetheart," Horace Harkness told him softly, almost lovingly, "or I'll break your fucking back myself."

Illyushin went pasty white, arched with the pain in his elbow and shoulder. Like Steilman, he was a bully and a sadist, but he wasn't a total fool . . . and he knew Harkness' reputation.

No one else paid any attention to Illyushin or Harkness. All eyes were on Steilman and Aubrey as the power tech staggered to his feet once more. He shook himself, face slimed with blood from his nose and pulped mouth, and dragged the back of one hand across his chin.

"You're gonna die, Snotnose!" he raged. "I'm gonna rip your head off and piss down your neck!"

"Sure you are," Aubrey said. He felt his heart pound madly, felt the sweat at his own hairline. He was frightened, for he knew how badly this could still end, but he was in command of his fear. He was using his fear, as Harkness and Gunny Hallowell had taught him. Letting it sharpen his reflexes, but not letting it drive him. He was focused, in a way Randy Steilman could never even begin to understand, and he watched the other man come.

Steilman came in more cautiously this time, right fist clenched low by his side, left arm spread to grab and drag Aubrey in close. But despite what had already happened, his caution was only a thin veneer over his rage. He didn't understand, had no concept of how much Aubrey had changed, and his intellect hadn't caught up with his emotions. He'd taken damage, but he was almost as tough physically as he thought he was, and he couldn't even conceive of the possibility that he might lose. It simply wasn't possible. The snotnose had gotten lucky, that was all, and Steilman remembered how he'd terrified Aubrey the first time they'd met, then beaten him savagely the only time he'd ever laid hands on him. He knew—didn't think; knew—he could tear this little bastard apart, and he growled deep in his throat as he prepared to do just that.

Aubrey let him come, no longer afraid, no longer uncertain. He remembered everything Gunny Hallowell had taught him, knew Steilman could still take him, despite what had already happened, if Aubrey let him. But he also remembered what Hallowell had told him to do about it, and his eyes were cold as he stepped right into the other man. His right arm brushed Steilman's grappling left arm wide like a parrying rapier even as the power tech's fist came up in a smashing blow. There was immense power in that punch, but Aubrey's left hand slapped his wrist, diverting the blow into empty air, and then his right hand continued forward from the parry of the older man's arm. His fingers cupped the back of Steilman's head and jerked, and the power tech's own forward momentum helped bring his face down just in time to meet Aubrey's driving kneecap.

Steilman staggered back with another scream of pain, both hands going to his face. Feet pounded as two Marines in the black brassards of the ship's police burst into the compartment, but Sally MacBride's raised hand stopped them. Neither Marine said a word, but they came to a complete halt, eyes dark with satisfaction, as they realized what was happening.

Steilman's hands were still covering his face, leaving him blind and vulnerable, when a rock-hard right fist slammed a vicious uppercut into his crotch. The punch started somewhere down around Aubrey's right calf, and the sound Steilman made wasn't a scream this time. It was an animal sound of agony, and he jackknifed forward. His hands dropped instantly from his face to his groin, and the edge of a bladed left hand broke his right cheekbone like a hammer. His head snapped sideways, his eyes stunned, wide with disbelief and terrible pain, and then he shrieked as a precisely placed kick exploded into his right knee.

The kneecap shattered instantly, and he went to the deck, his screams high and shrill as his leg bent impossibly backward. He'd never even touched the bastard. Even through his agony, that thought burned in his brain like poison. The snotnose hadn't just beaten him; he'd destroyed him, and he'd made it look so easy.
Didn't feel like I could skip this fight after all the build up. Bit of an anticlimax to be honest. Wanderman openly accuses Steilman of trying to kill Lewis, Steilman gets enraged enough to jump him and gets it handed out to him.

The only good news, aside from the fact that Ginger was coming back extremely well from her ordeal, was that what awaited him was "only" a Captain's Mast, not a formal court martial. The worst Captain's Mast could do to him was stick him in the brig for up to forty-five days per offense and bust him a maximum of three grades. Of course, that didn't count taking his acting petty officer's status away. The Captain could do that whenever she chose and start the busting process from his permanent rate.
The worst a Captain can do to her crew without stopping at a naval station for a formal court martial.

She might just do it, too, Aubrey thought. Fighting aboard ship was a serious offense, but one the Navy had long since learned to handle "in house" without bringing up the heavy artillery. Crippling a fellow crewman was something else, and Randy Steilman's knee was going to require surgical reconstruction. That could very easily have turned it into a court martial offense, with heavy time in the stockade or even a dishonorable discharge attending a guilty verdict.
Particularly where you were looking for a fight, even if the other guy threw the first punch.

"Prisoner is charged with violation of Article Thirty-Four," she said crisply, "violent, abusive, and threatening language to a fellow crewman; Article Thirty-Five, assaulting a fellow crewman; Article Nineteen," her voice turned colder, "conspiracy to desert in time of war; and Article Ninety, conspiracy to commit murder."

Steilman's eyes flickered at the third charge and turned suddenly very dark at the fourth, and Honor looked at Rafe Cardones.

"Have you investigated the charges, Mr. Cardones?"

"I have, Captain," the exec replied formally. "I've examined each witness to the incident in the mess compartment, and all the testimony supports the first two charges. Based on further testimony from Electronics Tech Showforth and Environmental Tech Stennis and corroborating evidence located in the prisoner's quarters and in Life Pod One-Eight-Four, I believe there is convincing evidence to support the latter two charges, as well."
Steilman's Mast. Once he got busted up, his conspirators rolled on him about the murder and mutiny plans. Of course, Honor can only summarily space pirates, so Steilman and co wind up in the brig until they can be unloaded on a large enough naval station to give them a fair hearing.

"Very well. For violation of Article Thirty-Five, with aggravated circumstances, the prisoner is confined to quarters for one day and fined one week's pay. Dismissed."

Aubrey blinked, and his eyes dropped to the Captain's face in disbelief. Her face didn't even move as muscle as she returned his goggle-eyed stare, but there was the ghost of a twinkle in the eyes which had been so cold. He wondered if he was supposed to say something, but the Master at Arms came to his rescue.

"Prisoner, on caps!" he barked, and Aubrey's spine stiffened automatically as he replaced his beret. "About, face!" Thomas snapped, and Aubrey turned and marched obediently out of the cabin to begin his confinement to quarters.
Wanderman's punishment.

Honor rubbed the tip of her nose thoughtfully. There had not, in fact, been a timer on the nuclear demolitions, and the ground troops had crumbled when they learned of their leader's desertion—and of what had happened to all their erstwhile associates aboard the repair ship. When Wayfarer's pinnaces disembarked a full battalion of battle-armored Marines and then went back upstairs to provide air support, they'd fallen all over themselves to surrender.

Not, she thought grimly, that it was going to do them a great deal of good in the long run. Sidemore's planetary government—or what was left of it after the long, savage months of Warnecke's occupation—had come out of hiding when it realized the nightmare was over. The planetary president had been among the first hostages shot by Warnecke's troops, but the vice-president and two members of her cabinet had eluded capture. There'd still been a haunted, hunted look in their eyes when Honor went dirtside to greet them, but they constituted a functional government. Best of all, Sidemore had a death penalty.
Warnecke and crew get to face Sidemore justice from the surviving government. He is assured a fair trial, but at this point just listing the evidence against him will take weeks.

What did bother her was that four of Warnecke's ships were still at large. One was a light cruiser, and the other three were only destroyers, but the Marsh System had nothing with which to defend itself against them. And since the privateers didn't know their base had been destroyed, they were certain to return eventually. According to records captured on the planet, they were cruising individually, so they could be expected to return in singletons, but any one of them could destroy every town and city on the planet if its captain chose to take vengeance on Sidemore, and it would be some weeks yet before Commodore Blohm's promised IAN squadron could get here.

"I think we're going to have to detach some of the LACs," she said finally.

"For system security?"

"Yes." She rubbed her nose some more. "We'll detach Jackie Harmon as senior officer and give her LAC One. Six LACs should be able to deal with all of Warnecke's remaining ships, especially taking them by surprise and with Jackie in command."
For now what they're doing to look after Sidemore. Honor's pretty confident that half a dozen LACs can handle a destroyer, or even a cruiser. Then again she has another thought on how to help them out.

"I think we'll leave them a few dozen missile pods, as well. We can modify the fire control to let each LAC handle a couple of them at a time and then put them in Sidemore orbit. If any of Warnecke's orphans want to tangle with that kind of firepower, they won't be leaving again."
So apparently the LACs can handle some pod missiles, though that may be without launching their own, since the pod missiles are so much heavier than theirs.

"Another thing. I think I'll leave Jackie written orders to turn their ships over to Vice-President Gutierrez if she can take them intact. They're not much, but these people are totally on their own, and they ought to be enough to scare off any normal pirate."

"Do they have the people to crew them?" Cardones asked dubiously, and Honor shrugged.

"They've got a few hundred experienced spacers of their own, and the ones Warnecke was using for slave labor will still be here until someone with enough life support can arrange to repatriate them. Jackie and her people can give them a quicky course on weapon systems. Besides, I'm going to recommend that the Admiralty put a fleet station in here."

"You are?" Cardones eyebrows rose, and she shrugged again.

"It makes sense, actually. The Confederacy's always hated giving us basing rights in their space. It's stupid, since we're the ones who've traditionally kept piracy in check, but I think part of it's resentment at having to admit they need us for that in the first place. Then too, some of their governors hate having us around because we're bad for their business arrangements. But Marsh has every reason in the world to be grateful to us, and they've just had a pretty gruesome experience with the consequences of not being able to defend themselves. They're also only fifteen light-years from Sachsen. We don't have a station there but the Andies do, and if we put in a base here and kept a few cruisers or battlecruisers on station, we'd have a place to turn convoy escorts around . . . and to keep an eye on the Andies in Sachsen."
The immediate and long-term future of Sidemore, as Manticore's premier fleet base just outside the Silesian border where no one can legitimately object to it.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Re: Skimmer:

So, basically, "slam back into your seat" G-forces are more survivable than either "pushed up along the length of your body" G-forces or "pulled down by your feet" G-forces?

That would explain a lot.

As to the burn duration, the shuttle accelerated at 100 gravities (one kilometer per second squared, close enough to make no difference). After one second of that you have 500 meters clearance. Distance scales with time squared. After two seconds you have 2000 meters. Four seconds, eight kilometers... ten seconds, fifty kilometers, twenty seconds, 200 kilometers. Thirty seconds, 450 kilometers, easily enough.

So yes, given the size of shipboard impeller wedges, that burn had to be something like 20 seconds to get clear of the repair ship's wedge.
Ahriman238 wrote:Missile pods are bigger than a pinnace, which is itself roughly the size of a commercial airliner albeit smaller than an LAC. Which is less helpful than it sounds, LACs are big. $3 million Manticoran per pod.
Surprisingly cheap relative to an object of similar mass today. Maybe a Manticoran dollar is worth more relative to the average Mantie's income than today. We could maybe build a portable launch rack for ten ICBMs, if there was a platform big enough to carry them... and it might cost three million in 1940 or 1900 dollars for all I know.
120 tons for the new capital ship missiles, against 75 tons for the fleet action in the first book. The pods are being reloaded EVA before being brought inside.
Hm? Do you mean, superdreadnought missiles now tipping the scale at 120 tons where the prewar version weighed 75? This may partly reflect the pod missiles being upscaled to be even bigger and heavier than capital ship missiles. Too big to fire from tubes... but that's not really a handicap for pods.

There's another incentive to do that, too. BuWeaps is preparing to roll out the MDM at this point, so they have incentive to at least try to make sure the fleet is experienced and prepared to handle missiles of the same kind of sheer bulk as first-generation MDMs. It'd make things even more needlessly awkward if the MDMs are twice as big as anything the Manticoran navy's ever had to slap a cargo hoist on before.
Pressor beams pop up from time to time in sci-fi. They're the opposite of tractor beams in that they repel things, so a combined tractor/pressor unit for moving things (particularly in zero-g) makes a lot of sense. Also hardsuits, are like contemporary spacesuits, bulky. But they're one-size-fits-all where skinsuits have to be individually tailored, and Wayfarer has a lot of space for things like that.
Also, hardsuits are probably tougher (so as to be better at withstanding any random bits of orbital junk, or stray bolts that get caught in your tractor beam and sucked into your chest). They may well have greater endurance. They might actually fit OVER the skinsuits, come to think of it, and be designed to mate with them the way the Manned Maneuvering Unit (the only true JETPACK IN SPACE ever designed by man) mated with NASA spacesuits. Although I gather a hardsuit is fully enclosed, whereas the MMU was basically a backpack.

By the way, when I hear skinsuits I think of advanced descendants of biosuits...
SUT on emergency power can pull 35 Gs of accel, plenty to cripple or kill the user. But the gravity tolerance debate just gets better from here.
Again, this may be slamming the user from behind, which makes it less insane though probably still fatal or crippling if it persists for any real length of time.

[Did Ginger Lewis spend any time in the bacta tank regen facility afterwards? Remember that they do have regen in the Honorverse, and it can in fact repair people who've had whole limbs (or, presumably, spines) ripped to pieces. It just takes a while, and only works on about 80% of the human race...]

On the other hand, at 35g the suit will go from zero to Mach 1 in about a second. So even a very short burst of such acceleration is enough to make it hard to spot and reel in a "Dutchman."
"Tremaine, Flight Ops," Scotty said urgently. "Listen up! I've got a Dutchman headed away from the ship at thirty-five gees. I painted the trace on your plot three minutes ago. Tie into the ready pinnace and guide them in on it—and for God's sake don't lose it!"
...Wait, shit, for three minutes? OK, no way does that make any sense.

[After three minutes she'd be up to about sixty kilometers per second and rising- roughly the outbound velocity of the Voyager probes as they are now leaving the solar system]
"Her attitude thrusters could just as easily have slammed her straight into the hull, and she inhaled enough stomach acid to cause major lung damage. Angie's on top of that, but she pulled thirty-five gees for twenty minutes, with no warning, and her vector looks like a near-weasel chasing a rabbit. That didn't do her a bit of good, and she was pretty far gone in anoxia—from the lung damage, not suit failure—before the pinnace got to her. By the way," he added, "Tatsumi was the ready section SBA. Angie says he's the only reason she's still alive."
So, 20 minutes of constant 35 G accel, on a corkscrewing vector. From what I can follow of the gravity discussion, she really should be dead, right?
...YES. And possibly hamburger. Unless those suits come with their own grav plates, which would actually be reasonable.
"Yes." She rubbed her nose some more. "We'll detach Jackie Harmon as senior officer and give her LAC One. Six LACs should be able to deal with all of Warnecke's remaining ships, especially taking them by surprise and with Jackie in command."
For now what they're doing to look after Sidemore. Honor's pretty confident that half a dozen LACs can handle a destroyer, or even a cruiser. Then again she has another thought on how to help them out.
Six of her LACs outweigh a destroyer, or for that matter her old Fearless. They have more modern electronics than Fearless, could potentially fire a seventy-two missile broadside (once per side) from their box launchers, and in missile combat could probably shoot down everything a Warneckist destroyer could dream of putting into space.

They'd carve one of those raiders up like a roast.
So apparently the LACs can handle some pod missiles, though that may be without launching their own, since the pod missiles are so much heavier than theirs.
Why would that matter? The missiles being physically large doesn't make them harder to control.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:Re: Skimmer:

So, basically, "slam back into your seat" G-forces are more survivable than either "pushed up along the length of your body" G-forces or "pulled down by your feet" G-forces?

That would explain a lot.

As to the burn duration, the shuttle accelerated at 100 gravities (one kilometer per second squared, close enough to make no difference). After one second of that you have 500 meters clearance. Distance scales with time squared. After two seconds you have 2000 meters. Four seconds, eight kilometers... ten seconds, fifty kilometers, twenty seconds, 200 kilometers. Thirty seconds, 450 kilometers, easily enough.

So yes, given the size of shipboard impeller wedges, that burn had to be something like 20 seconds to get clear of the repair ship's wedge.
It doesn't have to get her clear of the wedge, it just has to get her from "attached to the topside of the repair ship (where the ship's acceleration will bring the narrower aft aspect of the wedge into fatally close proximity)" to "into the volume swept out by the kilt of the wedge's path." At least, that's how I interpret that passage. If it's getting clear of the wedge entirely, it could easily be 200-300 km, and a 20+ second burn, yes.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Simon_Jester wrote: So, basically, "slam back into your seat" G-forces are more survivable than either "pushed up along the length of your body" G-forces or "pulled down by your feet" G-forces?

That would explain a lot.
Its about the direction of G force vs the directions your blood needs to flow at the end of the day, with the eyes being a extra factor. If the force is front to back the blood wants to run to the back of your brain, which can be a problem, but much less of one then the blood having to fight all the way up from your heart to your brain in the first place. G force forward to the face is a problem because eyes don't like this, likewise force from feet towards brain cases the same problem and eventually an aneurysm. Human bodies have a certain built in tolerance for varying blood pressure, otherwise a rapid heart beat and spiking blood pressure to let your muscles run with would overload your brain, which doesn't need more then slightly more blood flow to make you run then to make you sit. The brain also has some ability to just function with less then optimal O2 levels, thus the loss of fighter pilots color vision in hard turns, followed by a narrowing of the field of view, while not actually blacking out.

If we had a theoretical spherical life form with the brain wrapped around the heart then none of this difference would matter and all acceleration would be equal (except for some slight difference depending on where the aorta came out). Well the eye issue still would matter, but the brain wouldn't care one direction from another.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Surprisingly cheap relative to an object of similar mass today. Maybe a Manticoran dollar is worth more relative to the average Mantie's income than today. We could maybe build a portable launch rack for ten ICBMs, if there was a platform big enough to carry them... and it might cost three million in 1940 or 1900 dollars for all I know.
Or perhaps another sign of Manticore's impressive resources and industrial base.

Hm? Do you mean, superdreadnought missiles now tipping the scale at 120 tons where the prewar version weighed 75? This may partly reflect the pod missiles being upscaled to be even bigger and heavier than capital ship missiles. Too big to fire from tubes... but that's not really a handicap for pods.

There's another incentive to do that, too. BuWeaps is preparing to roll out the MDM at this point, so they have incentive to at least try to make sure the fleet is experienced and prepared to handle missiles of the same kind of sheer bulk as first-generation MDMs. It'd make things even more needlessly awkward if the MDMs are twice as big as anything the Manticoran navy's ever had to slap a cargo hoist on before.
Well, in the first book it wasn't exactly clear that there were separate sizes of missiles, but they did reference 75 ton birds flashing through the void.

By the way, when I hear skinsuits I think of advanced descendants of biosuits...
I think first of a Mechanical Counter Pressure Suit (MCP) which is much the same, albeit lower tech.

[Did Ginger Lewis spend any time in the bacta tank regen facility afterwards? Remember that they do have regen in the Honorverse, and it can in fact repair people who've had whole limbs (or, presumably, spines) ripped to pieces. It just takes a while, and only works on about 80% of the human race...]
She got quick-heal and the stomach acid she inhaled flushed from her lungs, no mention of regen.

On the other hand, at 35g the suit will go from zero to Mach 1 in about a second. So even a very short burst of such acceleration is enough to make it hard to spot and reel in a "Dutchman."
I suspect most Dutchman do not involve an SUT going uncontrollably to emergency power. Probably usually more like someone running out the thrusters on his skin suit and drifting off at the speed of a brisk walk. That they can respond this effectively to a supersonic Dutchman is probably really reassuring to the crew, once they get over the sabotage happening in the first place.

Why would that matter? The missiles being physically large doesn't make them harder to control.
No. But I get the feeling the LACs weren't really designed with running pods in mind, or tons of redundant control links. But they can easily adjust to fire the pods, with the implication that the hard part will be programming the pods to accept instructions from a platform besides Wayfarer.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Well, in the first book it wasn't exactly clear that there were separate sizes of missiles, but they did reference 75 ton birds flashing through the void.
Were those cruiser missiles or dreadnought missiles?
No. But I get the feeling the LACs weren't really designed with running pods in mind, or tons of redundant control links. But they can easily adjust to fire the pods, with the implication that the hard part will be programming the pods to accept instructions from a platform besides Wayfarer.
A LAC would have to control its own twelve-missile broadsides fired from the launch boxes. It should be able to handle a salvo from one pod. So the procedure might be:

[each LAC fires and controls a pod, steering that pod's missiles onto the target]

[sixty-missile salvo from one pod per LAC probably obliterates the raider entirely]

[Failing that, LACs ripple their onboard missiles and finish off the target]

[the end]
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Well, in the first book it wasn't exactly clear that there were separate sizes of missiles, but they did reference 75 ton birds flashing through the void.
Were those cruiser missiles or dreadnought missiles?
It was Honor's original HMS Fearless, so CL-weight.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Well, in the first book it wasn't exactly clear that there were separate sizes of missiles, but they did reference 75 ton birds flashing through the void.
Were those cruiser missiles or dreadnought missiles?
Leaning towards dreadnought, since it was describing the exchange of fire between Hemphill's and D'Orville's fleets in the fleet-wide wargames. But it was never specifically stated to be from one ship class or another. Just that each missile was 75 tons and cost upwards a million Manticoran dollars, even without penaids or live warheads, and thus the exercises were expensive enough to give any right-thinking Liberal or Progressive fits.

Simon wrote:
No. But I get the feeling the LACs weren't really designed with running pods in mind, or tons of redundant control links. But they can easily adjust to fire the pods, with the implication that the hard part will be programming the pods to accept instructions from a platform besides Wayfarer.
A LAC would have to control its own twelve-missile broadsides fired from the launch boxes. It should be able to handle a salvo from one pod. So the procedure might be:

[each LAC fires and controls a pod, steering that pod's missiles onto the target]

[sixty-missile salvo from one pod per LAC probably obliterates the raider entirely]

[Failing that, LACs ripple their onboard missiles and finish off the target]

[the end]
Which is what I meant. They'd probably fire the larger, faster, longer-ranged, and vastly more powerful pod missiles first, and thus have control links for them.
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StarSword
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by StarSword »

Ahriman238 wrote:Leaning towards dreadnought, since it was describing the exchange of fire between Hemphill's and D'Orville's fleets in the fleet-wide wargames. But it was never specifically stated to be from one ship class or another. Just that each missile was 75 tons and cost upwards a million Manticoran dollars, even without penaids or live warheads, and thus the exercises were expensive enough to give any right-thinking Liberal or Progressive fits.
On Basilisk Station wrote:Sally MacBride bent her own back to the struggle, and the seventy-ton missile floated across the passage.
Found the citation I was looking for.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Also, 78 ton missiles for a prewar Star Knight CA as of 'Honor of the Queen'.
Two of them vanished in sun-bright fireballs that shook Thunder to her keel as twin, 78-ton hammers struck her sidewall at .25 C. For all their fury, those two were harmless, but their sisters' sidewall penetrators functioned as designed.
Which either means capship missiles aren't that much more massive than cruiser ones, the Trojans weren't using capital scale missiles, or Weber made another math boo-boo.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

StarSword wrote:
On Basilisk Station wrote:Sally MacBride bent her own back to the struggle, and the seventy-ton missile floated across the passage.
Cruiser missile.
Batman wrote:Also, 78 ton missiles for a prewar Star Knight CA as of 'Honor of the Queen'.
Two of them vanished in sun-bright fireballs that shook Thunder to her keel as twin, 78-ton hammers struck her sidewall at .25 C. For all their fury, those two were harmless, but their sisters' sidewall penetrators functioned as designed.
Which either means capship missiles aren't that much more massive than cruiser ones, the Trojans weren't using capital scale missiles, or Weber made another math boo-boo.
Cruiser missile.

The quote to which Ahriman refers is:
On Basilisk Station wrote:Each of those projectiles massed just under seventy-five tons and cost upward of a million Manticoran dollars, even without warheads or penaids.
And that quote is describing the fleet wargames at the beginning of the book, in Chapter Three, so is presumably a capital ship missile, unless the screen is firing the first shots.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Err-I was referring to the missiles Wayfarer used massing a measly 120 tons yet supposedly being capital scale.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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